I don't like losing a good answer to hatebears but if I am tutoring for an answer its almost always deluge when I need a whipe. Aetherflux is simply a stronger 3rd kill condition. The cards impressed me in other decks and while I still like tendrils/labman better it became apparent that this is in general a more useful kill condition than grapeshot its a better draw any time your not trying to kill thalia and friends.
The AR is an awesome add. It is scary how quick you can get up to 150+ life and then kill 3 people. You can also draw your deck without worry with ad nauseum for funsies.
So it's pretty much another mind over matter effect here. I'm not sure if this ones better or that I want 2 but i will certainly test it. Easier to cast essential wins at the same mana barrier with ad naus. No I would not cut lotus to play this it seems counter intuitive to play another mom effect then cut the best mom enabler. My initial Thought is mom Is still betterr but playing 2 infinite mana batteries may not be so bad. The sweet art has me hoping it tests better than my expectation here. However there are other builds where this is going to be insane non green controlled decks justness got a seedborn muse effect with combo potential. Rock heavy counterspell winter orb decks should be salivating.
Absolutely, I'm working on a B/W storm list right now that this card is going to put a lot of work in.
My initial thoughts are it's weaker than MoM - With MoM, any card in your hand is black lotus, and with this deck's draw potential, that's insane. MoM also has the ability to untap lands which is very strong as well.
With Paradox Engine, you have to physically cast something to get value, although, you get more value with less cards depending on board state. This difference becomes more apparent when you're tapped out or when your spells cost too much/ are the wrong color. Where as with MoM you can restart chains on call as long as you have pitch fodder, if you stall out with just a paradox engine, you're done.
I think they're both strong cards, and PE can shine in places MoM cannot, but if comparing the two in a vacuum, MoM is better.
As stated above, cutting Gilded Lotus would be counter intuitive, and we wouldn't want to cut MoM. The 5 drop slot is amazingly tight, with every card lending itself to a win (Gush with Doomsday, Future-Top combo, Ad Naus - either by itself or with Aetherflux, and Dark Petition/FoW just plain bonkers). I can see Dack Fayden, potentially since stealing with Sol Ring or Untapping all your mana rocks are in the same vain, but then you lose out on the Tempo plays with Dack
I don't like losing a good answer to hatebears but if I am tutoring for an answer its almost always deluge when I need a whipe. Aetherflux is simply a stronger 3rd kill condition. The cards impressed me in other decks and while I still like tendrils/labman better it became apparent that this is in general a more useful kill condition than grapeshot its a better draw any time your not trying to kill thalia and friends.
Super glad you ar on board with the Res. It has done so much work for me and is consistant at large board kills. I also like the look of the Engine for the deck but agree that moms selective nature really helps with a high tide on board. that being said, I have picked up a candelabra now and these twinned could be pretty devastating. (Candle + Paradoxic)
Very chuffed you like the reservoir, keep up the good posts. Many thanks monix!
I was interested to see if you had any updates on the budget list you were working on. My main issue so far has been trying to acquire about 10 cards mainly the expensive artifacts and duals. I was wondering if there were budget replacements for: Candelabra, force of will, grim tutor, imperial seal, LED, mana drain, and time twister. I understand the issue pretty much is some of these cards have no equivalent but if you had to replace them would there be anything that would be close? Any help would be great, thanks.
I think I know what your talking about someone Skyped me and linked me to it maybe a few months ago it. mainly looked like they cut late game cards for more cheap mana rocks to run paradox engine instead of mind over matter and get less mulligans in the opener. Personally I would rather have better cards in the deck I don't mind mulling a hand with past in flames that I could have kept with a izzet signet in a format where you want to have power cards like sol ring in your opener anyway. Mom and engine are both great cards mom just fits the build better they both give you essentially infinite mana. I personally would not trade back end efficiency and possibly fizzling for less mulligans you don't really want to be drawing cards like signets later in the game and while they are acceptable early they don't have a very high power level in general. So while these cards are great fillers especially for budget palyers I'm fine with where this so currently I haven't "updated" because I don't have any changes. If they print powerful cards that I want like they did when they realized dark petition or I get an upgrade for a slot like when I replaced grapeshot with aetherflux because it was a better kill condition I will.
Hey Moxnix, I was hoping for some insight into the following cards as 'maybes' in the deck:
Personal Tutor
Sign in Blood
Also, I noticed twice where you described a turn 1 win that I dont understand:
While rare turn 1 wins are possible with this deck via doomsday (as well as other less for sure ways ie Ad Nauseam since and with fewer cards than most other turn 1 combos. These hands will have the most efficient cantrips and mana sources in your deck with doomsday. LED, Lotus Petal, Dark ritual, Doomsday, land that taps for black, ponder/preordain/brainstorm. With a six like this we can go
Play petal > play land > Dark Ritual off land > LED> Doomsday
Pile
Night’s whisper
Dark Ritual
Yawgmoth’s Will
Laboratory Maniac
Pact of Negation
Pop petal( POST DOOMSDAY!) Crack Led to cantrip, BBB
Night’s Wishper Floating B
Ritual YW
LED UUU
Petal + DR BBB
Night’s whisper BUUU
Labman U
Cantrip
How are you open-handing DR and then piling it too? And then the same thing here:
So I had not pulled off a turn 1 win in over 50 games with deck recently which does not really bug me as the decks not built to try and win turn 1 it's ment to win turn 4 but I had been feeling overdue For a true god hand.. I did not get one in this particular game but it's perhaps the most insane turn 1 kill I've ever pulled off up until this point I do not think I have EVER mulled to less than 6 and pulled off a turn 1 win this game I mull to THREE. I have not lost a FFA game in some time with this deck I pitch a perfectly playable 7 because it had no ramp no tutor no cheap cantrips. It was the last hand I saw with more than 1 land I mull all the way down to a 0 land hand of LED windfall mana crypt. Wow that's about as perfect as it gets aside from led not being a land. Turn 1 top deck mana confluence YES! Now I feel great about my mulls this is by far better than any of the other hands I had so I go turn 1 windfall crack led for black for value and there it is a hand with lotus petal ponder gitaxian probe and doomsday!
Pile
LED
Nights whisper
Dark ritual
Yawgmoth's will
Lab man
Petal > ponder grab led
Led + probe grab whisper
Whisper into ritual yawg win
Led crack blue
Petal blue
Probe grabing lab man
Labman
Ponder ftw
LED in opening hand and in pile? What am I missing? It looks like Mana Crypt would work in the first example, I have no idea how the second example would have happened. Can you help me understand?
How are you open-handing DR and then piling it too?
LED in opening hand and in pile? What am I missing? It looks like Mana Crypt would work in the first example, I have no idea how the second example would have happened. Can you help me understand?
Hello friend! This is possible because Doomsday is a such a fair card and says "Search your library and graveyard for five cards...."
Also a fun fact about the card; What is the only tutor (so far) in magic that doesn't tell you to shuffle your library? - Doomsday
Will you consider Kess as a replacement to Jeleva?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have divined your fate. You shall find your nemesis, a catastrophic clash. Devastation, misery for all, the unleashing of horrible curses and ferocious powers. Ruin, such ruin that I dream each night of blessed peace, assured that the universe is in balance once more...
Yeah, the new Grixis Commander seems really good, even if it only gives a single card flashback for the turn.
I'd also like to chime in here and support Paradox Engine. It makes mana rocks absurdly good and turns Isochron Scepter into an infinite combo piece with too many cards. My favorite one that I discovered so far was Isochron Scepter, with Reality shift imprinted on it, Paradox Engine, and a Mana Vault. I didn't actually activate it to deck my wife in the game where this came up, because I'm a smart man, but it was gratifying to know that the Scepter has increased in value substantially with the Engine being in the deck.
I understand this whole list is, of course, entirely competitively focused. Are there any perspectives here on how to try for a similar deck in more of a 75% casual EDH meta? I love the concept of storm, but this hyper-competitive build would be way too much for my group.
Yeah, the new Grixis Commander seems really good, even if it only gives a single card flashback for the turn.
I'd also like to chime in here and support Paradox Engine. It makes mana rocks absurdly good and turns Isochron Scepter into an infinite combo piece with too many cards. My favorite one that I discovered so far was Isochron Scepter, with Reality shift imprinted on it, Paradox Engine, and a Mana Vault. I didn't actually activate it to deck my wife in the game where this came up, because I'm a smart man, but it was gratifying to know that the Scepter has increased in value substantially with the Engine being in the deck.
I don't think it's better than jeleva I'll be covering my opinions in a video. I love engine it's in a LOT of my decks now however I still didn't like it more than MoM here and I don't want/need both. You could change the deck so it uses more mana rocks and engine might be better but that's not how I play it. You can play however you want though. I know a lot do people who picked up storm and hate cards I think are incredible like past in flames for example. So if you want to play kess it's not a horrible card but I don't think it's better than Jeleva. As far as storm in casual the entire nature of storm playing your deck in one long turn is not something casual players tend to like but I have a horobi deck that's essentially a black control deck that storm kills the table with quite often the paradox engine in later turns and no one seems to mind that as I have tweaked it to win about when they do. I would suggest you just match the kill turn with decks alredy in your PG.
@Moxnix
Yeah, I suppose that Mind Over Matter does indeed compete with Paradox Engine, and the MOM does allow you to untap High Tideed lands. Fair point. Do you think that running Kess in the maindeck would be decent? She essentially acts as another Snapcaster, which I believe you're playing in the maindeck?
Yeah, I had to retire my Teferi Stax list. It was killing the table faster than anyone else and was able to throw people under stax pieces really effectively. I reassembled my Memnarch deck in paper and I've been loving the Engine/Storm package. It's actually my preferred win condition now, being able to shoot people with the death laser of destiny (Aetherflux Reservoir), although I do sometimes fall back on my normal infinite mana outlets. One of the cards I actually have really come to like Pull from Tomorrow as a way to keep the Storm turn alive. It absolutely doesn't compete with [CARD}Ad Nauseam[/CARD], but I've enjoyed it so far.
Slower mana makes the deck worse, but the mana rocks are some of the most expensive in this deck. I also thought about adding the following for the smaller budget:
The mana rocks really are a lot of what makes the deck run along with the wheels. I'm not an expert in the deck but obviously the whole concept is to spam mana, wheel, spam mana, wheel again, recall, spam mana etc to tendrils/remand/tendrils/grapeshot/reservoir someone out. Doomsday/Labman is the other main kill condition. Ad nauseum is a lot of the times the first tutor target to draw a mass quantity of cards to start the chaining. You need the super fast low cmc mana to make all this reliable and not kill you in the process.
I personally have the deck built except for 7 cards and it works pretty well. But of what I am missing it is Candelabra, 3 lands, 2 expensive tutors and timetwister, not the key mana rocks. The land replacements aren't ideal but passable and the tutors I replaced with a couple of the next best couple options in storm artifacts. I really wish I could get a Timetwister, but that won't ever happen sadly.
I'm sure you can make the budget cuts, it just won't be as competitive as it could be obviously.
Dramatic Reversal is probably a good alternate card. Aetherflux Reservoir is actually in his main deck list now. Mizzix's Mastery is nice but really expensive and you need mana cards. Not totally sold on Primal Amulet as an alternate due to its cost and the fact the deck is very color hungry but for a budget alternative since you need mana it could be a placeholder maybe. I would use Fellwar stone since it can most likely make a color you need and only costs 2. I use Voltaic Key for a Gilded Lotus untapper and for its low cmc of 1 as an alternate card. Tormod's Crypt could be an ok replacement for something due to it's 0 cmc, possibly utility, and as a storm count builder. Maybe Pull from Tomorrow, or Scroll Rack could attempt to replace a wheel effect (both cmc 2). Everflowing Chalice might be ok. I'd say Sky Diamond, but the tap kills it. Thought Vessel is eh because you need colored mana and after that you get into cmc 3+.
- Grapeshot
+ Aetherflux Reservoir
I don't like losing a good answer to hatebears but if I am tutoring for an answer its almost always deluge when I need a whipe. Aetherflux is simply a stronger 3rd kill condition. The cards impressed me in other decks and while I still like tendrils/labman better it became apparent that this is in general a more useful kill condition than grapeshot its a better draw any time your not trying to kill thalia and friends.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
5-drop hurts for ad naus, but untapping a mana vault/gilded lotus/sol ring/mox opal/etc per cast seems sweet.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
My initial thoughts are it's weaker than MoM - With MoM, any card in your hand is black lotus, and with this deck's draw potential, that's insane. MoM also has the ability to untap lands which is very strong as well.
With Paradox Engine, you have to physically cast something to get value, although, you get more value with less cards depending on board state. This difference becomes more apparent when you're tapped out or when your spells cost too much/ are the wrong color. Where as with MoM you can restart chains on call as long as you have pitch fodder, if you stall out with just a paradox engine, you're done.
I think they're both strong cards, and PE can shine in places MoM cannot, but if comparing the two in a vacuum, MoM is better.
As stated above, cutting Gilded Lotus would be counter intuitive, and we wouldn't want to cut MoM. The 5 drop slot is amazingly tight, with every card lending itself to a win (Gush with Doomsday, Future-Top combo, Ad Naus - either by itself or with Aetherflux, and Dark Petition/FoW just plain bonkers). I can see Dack Fayden, potentially since stealing with Sol Ring or Untapping all your mana rocks are in the same vain, but then you lose out on the Tempo plays with Dack
Super glad you ar on board with the Res. It has done so much work for me and is consistant at large board kills. I also like the look of the Engine for the deck but agree that moms selective nature really helps with a high tide on board. that being said, I have picked up a candelabra now and these twinned could be pretty devastating. (Candle + Paradoxic)
Very chuffed you like the reservoir, keep up the good posts. Many thanks monix!
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Personal Tutor
Sign in Blood
Also, I noticed twice where you described a turn 1 win that I dont understand:
How are you open-handing DR and then piling it too? And then the same thing here:
LED in opening hand and in pile? What am I missing? It looks like Mana Crypt would work in the first example, I have no idea how the second example would have happened. Can you help me understand?
Hello friend! This is possible because Doomsday is a such a fair card and says "Search your library and graveyard for five cards...."
Also a fun fact about the card; What is the only tutor (so far) in magic that doesn't tell you to shuffle your library? - Doomsday
Modern
WUBRG
I'd also like to chime in here and support Paradox Engine. It makes mana rocks absurdly good and turns Isochron Scepter into an infinite combo piece with too many cards. My favorite one that I discovered so far was Isochron Scepter, with Reality shift imprinted on it, Paradox Engine, and a Mana Vault. I didn't actually activate it to deck my wife in the game where this came up, because I'm a smart man, but it was gratifying to know that the Scepter has increased in value substantially with the Engine being in the deck.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I don't think it's better than jeleva I'll be covering my opinions in a video. I love engine it's in a LOT of my decks now however I still didn't like it more than MoM here and I don't want/need both. You could change the deck so it uses more mana rocks and engine might be better but that's not how I play it. You can play however you want though. I know a lot do people who picked up storm and hate cards I think are incredible like past in flames for example. So if you want to play kess it's not a horrible card but I don't think it's better than Jeleva. As far as storm in casual the entire nature of storm playing your deck in one long turn is not something casual players tend to like but I have a horobi deck that's essentially a black control deck that storm kills the table with quite often the paradox engine in later turns and no one seems to mind that as I have tweaked it to win about when they do. I would suggest you just match the kill turn with decks alredy in your PG.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Yeah, I suppose that Mind Over Matter does indeed compete with Paradox Engine, and the MOM does allow you to untap High Tideed lands. Fair point. Do you think that running Kess in the maindeck would be decent? She essentially acts as another Snapcaster, which I believe you're playing in the maindeck?
Yeah, I had to retire my Teferi Stax list. It was killing the table faster than anyone else and was able to throw people under stax pieces really effectively. I reassembled my Memnarch deck in paper and I've been loving the Engine/Storm package. It's actually my preferred win condition now, being able to shoot people with the death laser of destiny (Aetherflux Reservoir), although I do sometimes fall back on my normal infinite mana outlets. One of the cards I actually have really come to like Pull from Tomorrow as a way to keep the Storm turn alive. It absolutely doesn't compete with [CARD}Ad Nauseam[/CARD], but I've enjoyed it so far.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Why no isochron scepter/dramatic reversal?
What's the average cmc of your list? How often are you burned by ad nauseum? I'd worry your top end card selection is too high to dig so deep.
I am new to the deck. I am looking to build it IRL and I will be in a budget.
I do have the following:
30 Lotus Petal
35 Mox Opal
Cmc 1
36 Sol Ring
39 Dark ritual
40 High tide
42 Ponder
43 Brainstorm
45 Gitaxian Probe
46 Sensei's Divining Top
49 Vampiric Tutor
50 Mystical Tutor
51 Swan Song
54 Duress
56 Vandalblast
Cmc 2
57 Unsubstantiate
59 Remand
60 Impulse
61 Night's Whisper
62 Merchant Scroll
63 Demonic Tutor
66 Lim-Duls Vault
67 Counterspell
69 Cabal Ritual
70 Talisman of Dominance
71 Dimir Signet
78 Windfall
83 Frantic Search
85 Intuition
Cmc 4
86 Aetherflux Reservoir
87 Fact or Fiction
88 Past in Flames
90 Notion Thief
91 Tendrils of Agony
Cmc 5
93 Future Sight
94 Gilded Lotus
96 Gush
97 Dark Petition
100 Mind's Desire
What are the cards that has to bee in there? I imagine the below cards are nessasery.
Slower mana makes the deck worse, but the mana rocks are some of the most expensive in this deck. I also thought about adding the following for the smaller budget:
I personally have the deck built except for 7 cards and it works pretty well. But of what I am missing it is Candelabra, 3 lands, 2 expensive tutors and timetwister, not the key mana rocks. The land replacements aren't ideal but passable and the tutors I replaced with a couple of the next best couple options in storm artifacts. I really wish I could get a Timetwister, but that won't ever happen sadly.
I'm sure you can make the budget cuts, it just won't be as competitive as it could be obviously.
Dramatic Reversal is probably a good alternate card. Aetherflux Reservoir is actually in his main deck list now. Mizzix's Mastery is nice but really expensive and you need mana cards. Not totally sold on Primal Amulet as an alternate due to its cost and the fact the deck is very color hungry but for a budget alternative since you need mana it could be a placeholder maybe. I would use Fellwar stone since it can most likely make a color you need and only costs 2. I use Voltaic Key for a Gilded Lotus untapper and for its low cmc of 1 as an alternate card. Tormod's Crypt could be an ok replacement for something due to it's 0 cmc, possibly utility, and as a storm count builder. Maybe Pull from Tomorrow, or Scroll Rack could attempt to replace a wheel effect (both cmc 2). Everflowing Chalice might be ok. I'd say Sky Diamond, but the tap kills it. Thought Vessel is eh because you need colored mana and after that you get into cmc 3+.
Helm of Awakening is simply amazing when you Hurkyl's Recall all of your free or low cost mana rocks. 4 of your cmc1 artifacts become free including Sensei's Divining Top which then allows you to draw your entire deck in conjunction with Future Sight.
TLDR: you need the cheap fast broken mana for this deck to run.
Please anyone correct me. I'm still mostly a storm noob in practice.