Thanks Avvina. Woodfall Primus has actually been really good for me - I'll keep an eye on it, but I have no complaints. You say it's being outclassed as far as Greater Good is concerned... I disagree. Of course Lord of Extinction will draw more cards, but keep in mind as long as I'm drawing a reanimate spell (likely) in one of those eleven cards, I can keep the cycle going and blow up more permanents. Knocking out 2+ lands per opponent will put me miles more ahead than with LoE, even when taking into consideration the lack of extra cards in hand. There's also the chance that I lucksack into a reanimate + Mikeaus and win the game on the spot.
I'd like to talk about a couple games I had last night, against the same pod as above - Nin the Pain Artist artifact combo and Tasigur control. There were a couple notable games. One game, I had to play through a double gravehate. Usually the best way to play around gravehate is to use Phyrexian Devourer combo, but sometimes this doesn't work - like when Tas plays eighty kill spells. Anyway, I had a Survival of the Fittest in play, and three creatures in hand. I also knew that I couldn't let Tas untap and have countermagic up - he was tapped out this turn. So, I have to establish a position that will win me the game without casting more spells before Tas untaps. I was at a comfortable six mana ("comfortable" because it was turn three) on and all the colors I need, but Tas has a Deathrite Shaman in play, and Nin has a Tormod's Crypt in play. How do I play though this? I discard a creature - Baleful Force, I think - to Survival and find Necrotic Ooze. Thankfully Tas and I both have a Sakura-Tribe Elder in grave, so it looks like I'm just going for the ramp. This leaves me with B untapped, enough to cast the Murderous Cut I have in hand if I need to. I pass turn. Tas resolves a Prophet of Kruphix, meaning I have to play around more spells. Nin does nothing. Back to me - I untap and activate Survival, pitching a creature. It resolves, I find Triskelion. I pitch that - response to the ability, Nin Crypt's me. I respond, pitch a creature. Response to that, Deathrite eats my Triskelion, and again, I respond again by pitching a creature, finding Devourer, pitching Devourer, and going off. Since the discard is part of the cost on Survival, there wasn't a chance to kill my Ooze or anything at any point. Again, uninteruptable combos save the day.
Another game later on, twice in the game I was faced with MLD the turn before I combo off. I'm not going to go into the details, but basically, this deck needs sources of repeatable, grindy card advantage or you just lose to disruption, and it also needs the removal to be able to force the game to go grindy. Tas killed himself to his own Summoner's Pact after the second Armageddon, the Slivers player never recovered on lands and tried to kill me with combat damage but was thwarted by Crypt Ghast, and Nin recovered well with Crucible of Worlds but couldn't stop me, with the mana from Crypt Ghast + Urborg and the card advantage of Phyrexian Arena + Sylvan Library + Scroll Rack. Eventually, after much maneuvering, baiting counterspells, reanimating mana dorks, tutoring off Liliana Vess, and struggling for life and mana, I drew into Tooth and Nail and won on the spot.
Overall a lot of good games. I lost my fair share, but I those two were the ones with takeaways. The first game reiterated my point about how your combos should be very hard to disrupt, and the second was a reminder to myself that Crypt Ghast and other grindy advantage cards are necessary when my plan A doesn't work.
Congrats on getting Primer status! We have been lacking in Jarad discussion for a while since RWF_Less's thread kind of died off. Hope to see lots of great discussion in the future!
I've always loved my German Jarad. Gives the deck a real Faustian feel to it. Bishop because I play Chess at a competitive level and I'm known for my sharp use of the (especially Dark-Squared) bishop.
Currently testing Voyaging Satyr and Crop Rotation.
Speaking of Voyaging Satyr, I got myself a real nice win with him the other day. Basically living the dream. After having multiple attempts to win taken out by recursive grave hate, I cast Tempt, got Coffers/Urborg, use Coffers twice for approximately 12 trillion mana, and then had enough to cast Rune-Scarred demon, get Phyrexian Altar and cast it, sac RSD, cast Reanimate, in response to Tormod's Crypt cast Necromancy, get Mikaeus and cast him, sac RSD, undying, get Living Death, sac Satyr twice then Mike and RSD for mana, Living Death, get Eternal Witness, get infinite mana, kill everybody by saccing stuff to Jarad. It was pretty intense, reminded me of some of the derpy things I would do with non-infinite Krark-Clan Ironworks loops in Sharuum.
Other than that... I didn't really find much out of Satyr. He functioned as a 2 mana ramp spell, and certainly one I liked better than Nature's Lore effects, but not by a whole lot. He was vaguely on par with Sakura-Tribe Elder, if its an effect you want duplicates of.
Crop Rotation is balls-to-the-wall good, I have nothing else to say.
Speaking of Voyaging Satyr, I got myself a real nice win with him the other day. Basically living the dream. After having multiple attempts to win taken out by recursive grave hate, I cast Tempt, got Coffers/Urborg, use Coffers twice for approximately 12 trillion mana, and then had enough to cast Rune-Scarred demon, get Phyrexian Altar and cast it, sac RSD, cast Reanimate, in response to Tormod's Crypt cast Necromancy, get Mikaeus and cast him, sac RSD, undying, get Living Death, sac Satyr twice then Mike and RSD for mana, Living Death, get Eternal Witness, get infinite mana, kill everybody by saccing stuff to Jarad. It was pretty intense, reminded me of some of the derpy things I would do with non-infinite Krark-Clan Ironworks loops in Sharuum.
Other than that... I didn't really find much out of Satyr. He functioned as a 2 mana ramp spell, and certainly one I liked better than Nature's Lore effects, but not by a whole lot. He was vaguely on par with Sakura-Tribe Elder, if its an effect you want duplicates of.
Crop Rotation is balls-to-the-wall good, I have nothing else to say.
That is pretty dreamy. Yeah, Coffers is the reason I'm playing him, plus Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Tower. What did you cut for him?
Osiebro, I've played Sylvan Tutor. Ultimately Worldly Tutor is the worst tutor in the deck; I don't need more of that effect.
Primer updated with a hyperlinking Table of Contents and a banner. Plan on going through and re-writing a lot of this soon.
I replaced Nature's Lore. I don't necessarily suggest that its the correct cut, but I wanted to keep the numbers on ramp similar to what they already were, and STE was the other option. I vastly prefer STE in your deck.
What did you end up cutting for Satyr? Praetor's Grasp is probably really good against blue decks, decent against other reaninator decks, and weirdly okayish the rest of the time. I didnt get a chance to test it, but I can see it being worth testing.
How do you feel about dropping a piece of removal for another way to draw cards? Something like Momentous Fall, Life's Legacy, etc.
Satyr replaced Deglamer - I've been trying to slot in less removal.
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
Do you guys have a link to the Nin Artifact deck and the Tasigur Deck? im curious to see this Nin deck especially. I currently run your list Razz with just a couple of different card slots and love it. But im interested to see how a deck like Nin fares, but i havent had much luck finding a hyper competitive list
Do you guys have a link to the Nin Artifact deck and the Tasigur Deck? im curious to see this Nin deck especially. I currently run your list Razz with just a couple of different card slots and love it. But im interested to see how a deck like Nin fares, but i havent had much luck finding a hyper competitive list
Satyr replaced Deglamer - I've been trying to slot in less removal.
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
Satyr replaced Deglamer - I've been trying to slot in less removal.
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
Satyr replaced Deglamer - I've been trying to slot in less removal.
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
Satyr replaced Deglamer - I've been trying to slot in less removal.
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
Do you guys have a link to the Nin Artifact deck and the Tasigur Deck? im curious to see this Nin deck especially. I currently run your list Razz with just a couple of different card slots and love it. But im interested to see how a deck like Nin fares, but i havent had much luck finding a hyper competitive list
Been playing Praetor's Grasp and it's been nice so far, but I've been playing against the same two decks over and over so I'll need to see a little more before I decide for sure. Most common targets are Pact of Negation and cards that I play like Mana Crypt, Entomb, Demonic / Vampiric, and Reanimate. Satyr also been performing well, being a two-mana ramp for at least one. Loving the ability to untap lands that tap for more than one mana.
First, my deep compliments on your Primer layout. I've seen it change, and it's a gem of a read and also well-laid out. I'm down with you being on the EDH Primer Committee anytime if your OP is what your standard is.
One suggestion I have is Momentous Fall. Card draw and lifegain in one place that puts your creatures in the best place for you to interact with. It would be especially useful in the late game to sac Jarad himself to, as I imagine he is usually a 5/5 or 6/6 on T5 or T6. If the game has lasted that long. I can't remember if you mention having tried it in the thread, so forgive me if I'm dredging up a concluded subject.
First, my deep compliments on your Primer layout. I've seen it change, and it's a gem of a read and also well-laid out. I'm down with you being on the EDH Primer Committee anytime if your OP is what your standard is.
One suggestion I have is Momentous Fall. Card draw and lifegain in one place that puts your creatures in the best place for you to interact with. It would be especially useful in the late game to sac Jarad himself to, as I imagine he is usually a 5/5 or 6/6 on T5 or T6. If the game has lasted that long. I can't remember if you mention having tried it in the thread, so forgive me if I'm dredging up a concluded subject.
Thanks for the kind words, ben. I've worked hard on the thread and it's nice to hear that.
We've discussed Momentous Fall a bit recently and I've been meaning to test it over Harmonize.
Hi razzliox, I love your primer. It inspired me to make my own Jarad deck, I suppose with a higher focus on getting anything to the graveyard and endlessly reanimating it.
What do you think of Wake the Dead? It's an extremely versatile card that enables a lot of sneaky plays, and the downside of casting it on only an opponent's turn during combat/sacrificing is completely overshadowed by its X cost and the other synergies in the deck. I've been able to use it for a variety of purposes, most importantly a game plan recovery card.
Some examples of sneaky X=1 plays:
Spot removal ruins your Ooze combo? It's k, get it back on their turn during the combat phase, and try again.
Basic reanimation for an ETB/death effect. Ex: Grab Eternal Witness to have a blocker, and it's ETB effect gives you a card back(a combo piece, or sometimes even this card).
Other player can wipe your defenders with an attack. Declare blockers, with Mikaeus in the yard, cast this, save your team.
When X=2, pretty much any combo in your graveyard is turned on.
I'm looking forward to what you think. Anyway, thanks for the guide, I reference it against my deck almost weekly.
Hi razzliox, I love your primer. It inspired me to make my own Jarad deck, I suppose with a higher focus on getting anything to the graveyard and endlessly reanimating it.
What do you think of Wake the Dead? It's an extremely versatile card that enables a lot of sneaky plays, and the downside of casting it on only an opponent's turn during combat/sacrificing is completely overshadowed by its X cost and the other synergies in the deck. I've been able to use it for a variety of purposes, most importantly a game plan recovery card.
Some examples of sneaky X=1 plays:
Spot removal ruins your Ooze combo? It's k, get it back on their turn during the combat phase, and try again.
Basic reanimation for an ETB/death effect. Ex: Grab Eternal Witness to have a blocker, and it's ETB effect gives you a card back(a combo piece, or sometimes even this card).
Other player can wipe your defenders with an attack. Declare blockers, with Mikaeus in the yard, cast this, save your team.
When X=2, pretty much any combo in your graveyard is turned on.
I'm looking forward to what you think. Anyway, thanks for the guide, I reference it against my deck almost weekly.
Wake the Dead is certainly an interesting card. I'll add it to my to-test list. You mention that you have a heavier focus than I do on "getting anything to the graveyard and endlessly reanimating it" - this suggests to me that you likely play more creatures with enter-the-battlefield effects and therefore will likely make more use of Wake the Dead than I will. I'll test it nonetheless in the spot of Makeshift Mannequin.
@i_b_TRUE - Thanks! This is what you're looking for
I'd like to talk about a couple games I had last night, against the same pod as above - Nin the Pain Artist artifact combo and Tasigur control. There were a couple notable games. One game, I had to play through a double gravehate. Usually the best way to play around gravehate is to use Phyrexian Devourer combo, but sometimes this doesn't work - like when Tas plays eighty kill spells. Anyway, I had a Survival of the Fittest in play, and three creatures in hand. I also knew that I couldn't let Tas untap and have countermagic up - he was tapped out this turn. So, I have to establish a position that will win me the game without casting more spells before Tas untaps. I was at a comfortable six mana ("comfortable" because it was turn three) on and all the colors I need, but Tas has a Deathrite Shaman in play, and Nin has a Tormod's Crypt in play. How do I play though this? I discard a creature - Baleful Force, I think - to Survival and find Necrotic Ooze. Thankfully Tas and I both have a Sakura-Tribe Elder in grave, so it looks like I'm just going for the ramp. This leaves me with B untapped, enough to cast the Murderous Cut I have in hand if I need to. I pass turn. Tas resolves a Prophet of Kruphix, meaning I have to play around more spells. Nin does nothing. Back to me - I untap and activate Survival, pitching a creature. It resolves, I find Triskelion. I pitch that - response to the ability, Nin Crypt's me. I respond, pitch a creature. Response to that, Deathrite eats my Triskelion, and again, I respond again by pitching a creature, finding Devourer, pitching Devourer, and going off. Since the discard is part of the cost on Survival, there wasn't a chance to kill my Ooze or anything at any point. Again, uninteruptable combos save the day.
Another game later on, twice in the game I was faced with MLD the turn before I combo off. I'm not going to go into the details, but basically, this deck needs sources of repeatable, grindy card advantage or you just lose to disruption, and it also needs the removal to be able to force the game to go grindy. Tas killed himself to his own Summoner's Pact after the second Armageddon, the Slivers player never recovered on lands and tried to kill me with combat damage but was thwarted by Crypt Ghast, and Nin recovered well with Crucible of Worlds but couldn't stop me, with the mana from Crypt Ghast + Urborg and the card advantage of Phyrexian Arena + Sylvan Library + Scroll Rack. Eventually, after much maneuvering, baiting counterspells, reanimating mana dorks, tutoring off Liliana Vess, and struggling for life and mana, I drew into Tooth and Nail and won on the spot.
Overall a lot of good games. I lost my fair share, but I those two were the ones with takeaways. The first game reiterated my point about how your combos should be very hard to disrupt, and the second was a reminder to myself that Crypt Ghast and other grindy advantage cards are necessary when my plan A doesn't work.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
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GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
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I've always loved my German Jarad. Gives the deck a real Faustian feel to it. Bishop because I play Chess at a competitive level and I'm known for my sharp use of the (especially Dark-Squared) bishop.
Currently testing Voyaging Satyr and Crop Rotation.
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Other than that... I didn't really find much out of Satyr. He functioned as a 2 mana ramp spell, and certainly one I liked better than Nature's Lore effects, but not by a whole lot. He was vaguely on par with Sakura-Tribe Elder, if its an effect you want duplicates of.
Crop Rotation is balls-to-the-wall good, I have nothing else to say.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
That is pretty dreamy. Yeah, Coffers is the reason I'm playing him, plus Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Tower. What did you cut for him?
Osiebro, I've played Sylvan Tutor. Ultimately Worldly Tutor is the worst tutor in the deck; I don't need more of that effect.
Primer updated with a hyperlinking Table of Contents and a banner. Plan on going through and re-writing a lot of this soon.
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#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
Please test Praetor's Grasp while you have the deck.
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How do you feel about dropping a piece of removal for another way to draw cards? Something like Momentous Fall, Life's Legacy, etc.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
I feel like Praetor's Grasp is the "card draw" spell I want, when I need it to be. It'll often enough be some reanimate variant for a consecrated sphinx, it can be Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library number 2, and worst case it can be someone else's Demonic Tutor.
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Here's the Tasigur list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/585425-tasigrrrrr-the-golden-fang-infinite-recursion
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
I liked Praetor's Grasping for an opponent's Demonic Tutor to tutor up my Demonic Tutor to tutor up some combo/synergy piece.
Why not just use their tutor to find your combo piece? That way you still can draw your own tutor in the future?
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Xiahou Dun means that I essentially have drawn it, if I've played it.
Ah, makes sense.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Here's Nin - I have it saved in another guy's thread.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/591376-nins-nasty-artifacts?comment=2
Here's Tas.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/585425-tasigrrrrr-the-golden-fang-infinite-recursion
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Looking for more suggestions.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
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One suggestion I have is Momentous Fall. Card draw and lifegain in one place that puts your creatures in the best place for you to interact with. It would be especially useful in the late game to sac Jarad himself to, as I imagine he is usually a 5/5 or 6/6 on T5 or T6. If the game has lasted that long. I can't remember if you mention having tried it in the thread, so forgive me if I'm dredging up a concluded subject.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Thanks for the kind words, ben. I've worked hard on the thread and it's nice to hear that.
We've discussed Momentous Fall a bit recently and I've been meaning to test it over Harmonize.
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What do you think of Wake the Dead? It's an extremely versatile card that enables a lot of sneaky plays, and the downside of casting it on only an opponent's turn during combat/sacrificing is completely overshadowed by its X cost and the other synergies in the deck. I've been able to use it for a variety of purposes, most importantly a game plan recovery card.
Some examples of sneaky X=1 plays:
Spot removal ruins your Ooze combo? It's k, get it back on their turn during the combat phase, and try again.
Basic reanimation for an ETB/death effect. Ex: Grab Eternal Witness to have a blocker, and it's ETB effect gives you a card back(a combo piece, or sometimes even this card).
Other player can wipe your defenders with an attack. Declare blockers, with Mikaeus in the yard, cast this, save your team.
When X=2, pretty much any combo in your graveyard is turned on.
I'm looking forward to what you think. Anyway, thanks for the guide, I reference it against my deck almost weekly.
Wake the Dead is certainly an interesting card. I'll add it to my to-test list. You mention that you have a heavier focus than I do on "getting anything to the graveyard and endlessly reanimating it" - this suggests to me that you likely play more creatures with enter-the-battlefield effects and therefore will likely make more use of Wake the Dead than I will. I'll test it nonetheless in the spot of Makeshift Mannequin.
@i_b_TRUE - Thanks! This is what you're looking for
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog