I think I'm glad to see Venser go. He's been expensive and slow, and has never really benefited the game plan beyond simple blinking. Soulherder is cheaper, tutorable, and provides a late-game threat in much the same style - though he really hates being bounced, which is a pain.
This list isn't exactly like mine so I can't comment on all the changes but I do have Venser in my list as well and I too have gotten pretty close to cutting him. The only reason I have kept him around now is because I run Gilded Drake and I happen to like the card and want to get more value out of it. If I was not running that card, I would probably have cut Venser before now. So, I think it is a fine cut and I agree that Soulherder is probably a better fit for the deck.
I'm thinking that while Muddle can indeed turn into a bunch of things in our deck, it's difficult to get more value out of it for the amount we are playing around the card. I may end up slotting Archaeomancer against my better judgment.
I think Archaeomancer is a great card in this deck. There may not be a lot of Instants or Sorceries, but there are enough to make him worthwhile. Also, him plus Evacuation gives you a soft lock if you need it. I personally am not a fan of Muddle but I can see its usefulness in certain situations.
However for a card that interacts with instants and sorceries I'd probably much rather have God-Eternal Kefnet, and I'm not really sure I have enough instants and sorceries for either of them to be justified. At least Kefnet does plenty on his own, as it has a better body than almost any other card currently in the deck, and it's very easily recurred with its ability.
In fact, I'm sensing that there's got to be an instant or sorcery that I can win if I copy with Kefnet enough times. One of which is Approach of the Second Sun, but it's just so expensive. But it's fair enough on its own since we draw so many cards - though it becomes difficult if we happen to shuffle. Finally we could go for the obvious Nexus of Fate win, but it's both expensive and boring, plus Approach has some sort of "achievement unlocked" feel if you actually manage to win with it in EDH.
What are your thoughts, people?
Kefnet is likely better with some sort of instant win condition like Approach but overall, I don't think this deck runs enough Instants or sorceries to be worth it since you have to cast the copy right away. Most of those are reactive in nature so the value from Kefnet is likely lessened by that whereas Archaeomancer lets you get stuff back that can be used at more opportune times. If you have a higher concentration of good, proactive, instants or sorceries he might be worth it. I also don't think a 4/5 flyer (even for only 4 mana) is really that good either. I mean, it is "good", but I don't think it is good enough for this deck.
I admit I could be underestimating just being a 4/5 flyer that is hard to get rid of, but I think the vast majority of the time that is what he will be. So, if that alone is good enough to warrant his inclusion, I say go for it, but if you wouldn't include something that was just a 4/5 Indestructible (for comparison's sake) Flyer, I think I would suggest passing on Kefnet. And, if you would include that, I would just look to Kefnet the Mindful first as the card draw from him is likely to be more important overall and it shouldn't be too tough to keep your hand full.
I don't know that I would ever cut muddle because it can tutor for winds of abandon and cyclonic rift which makes it kind of double as a counterspell and a sweeper. I've used it in both modes, and also snapped it back as the second mode after tutoring.
I am mostly behind your changes Shermanido; the issue I am finding with Venser is more political than anything. I haven't set up the Gilded Drake lock in forever because people recognize the threat that Venser represents and make big plays to get rid of him every time he hits the table. I'm going to keep him for a while though because the variety of ways that I can get a gilded drake or some other beating with Venser is a lot.
Soulherder does a lot of the same stuff Venser does, but the main issue is Drake I think since that's the most common thing we have that is not ours.
Re: Kefnet/arch/etc
Arch is tutorable with recruiter. That alone is enough for me to prefer it over Kefnet. The second thing is it's very predictable. The amount of topdeck manipulation required to make Kefnet good is quite high.
The thing with arch is that the spells you cast are typically going to be the most important ones; you fished them out and bothered to cast them once, chances are good they are going to be desirable to cast again.
I think Keftnet wants you to have 30+ instants/sorceries and probably a number of time warp effects. The body is quite respectable though. I also think he demands scroll rack, top, brainstorm, ponder, preordain, mystical and portent at the minimum, which leads you down a path of playing a much lighter creature load but more impactful.
To be fair I think there is a deck there with Kefnet. Ephara is a decent commander for that because it doesn't take a lot to keep triggering her card advantage, and extra turn effects are really good with her with one of the passive token producers like Elspeth, or even Doomsayer.
Kefnet is weirdly pretty good with some of the stuff you would want to play in a spellslinger build though, stuff like White Sun's Zenith and secure the wastes. Secure in particular represents W for 2 tokens and then able to cast it again.
But I think to play that card you're talking about a major redesign and I think it would take me a year to get that right.
Approach of the Second Sun is again desirous of topdeck manipulation spells and basically combos with Kefnet - and plays really well with some of the more powerhouse mana producers. I think that's a reasonable potential wincon, especially as it only costs 12 mana or so to win the turn it pops.
I have always liked the card, but I don't think I would play it without going at a redesign or an additional Ephara build (something I have flirted with honestly -- I almost built the arcbound ravager version a few times:)).
Incidentally I think an ephara spellslinger build wants archaeomancer in addition to kefnet. The card is extremely powerful and represents a number of ways to win games -- a Time warp off the top with Kefnet represents 3 turns in a row with arch, and infinite turns on accident (displacer or soulherder).
re: Kefnet the mindful
I don't think this deck ever wants to play 3U to draw a card, but it's not impossible. It is nice that Ephara tends to give you a grip full of cards to let Kefnet attack / block, but I think the competition for 4 drops is pretty high personally. I would probably play a lot of stuff first.
Not the least is Spark Double which is moderately absurd in this deck period.
Also, like I said, there are Brainstorm and Scroll Rack already in the list as topdeck manipulation to enable Terminus (though I probably won't be copying that one with Kefnet).
True, counterspells feel pretty bad with him. However I only have 4 in my list, and to me it still feels worthwhile.
Overall, after considering all the above along with the baseline of the body, it seems to me like Kefnet is a solid add to my list.
The thing is that I also feel like we're having a discussion on entirely different things.
The way my deck typically plays out is playing hatebears to effectively counter opposing spells, and to bait opposing removal or trade with their early threats. Once my opponents finally get their game plan on the board (which will most likely be creatures), my deck will likely already have a wipe ready to clean up. This will have cost my opponents a bunch of cards and resources so they will probably get stuck with not much left, and then it's my opportunity to win. The question I'm trying to answer is - how do I win?
To me, Kefnet might represent that wincon in addition to doing other stuff - he's a good body that's hard to get rid of, and he doubles my cards for never ending value until my opponents' resources are depleted, while punching them in the face and never dying. I prefer this to Rite of Replication since copying a bunch of bears isn't really close enough to end games. Archaeomancer also doubles a single instant / sorcery, or more if you can blink it, but unlike Kefnet it doesn't really represent a wincon - just more fragile value.
In fact, let's talk about wincons in Ephara, because it feels like that's a discussion that's needed to happen for a while.
We've discussed the Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blasting Station + clones wincon, we've tried it, and though it seems to have worked it seemed to be almost random in my list, as well as unsatisfactory.
Apart from the above combo, the closest things to wincons I currently have in the deck are Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Helm of Possession (although not really). I've already mentioned cards like Nexus of Fate and Approach of the Second Sun that might be good to win with.
I've thought of Iona, Shield of Emeria since she's both a hate effect and a punching machine, and it may be that in the long term I may slot in Thran Temporal Gateway to help put in amazing threats at instant speed. However, getting her into play without that artifact seems to be almost impossible.
I've thought of more anthem effects in Angel of Jubilation and Thistledown Liege because they also do stuff the deck likes (hate and flash). But it seems somewhat underwhelming, and rather seems like "a hatebear with an anthem" rather than "a wincon that's also a hatebear".
I may slot Mother of Runes back in and join it with Giver of Runes in order to help Ephara punch our opponents to death, but they are so fragile that relying on them seems doomed to fail.
I may slot Luminarch Ascension back in and hope to God that my opponents don't eat my face the instant it comes down, because that's what often happened with it.
I may think of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur with Laboratory Maniac, then I'd be reminded that it's a silly combo and an unlikely one.
What are your thoughts?
EDIT: To mention a few more of the cards we've recently been talking about: Sword of Sinew and Steel as well as the obvious SoFaF can help buff up creatures to smash faces while still helping lock down the board. Solitary Confinement is more of the "you don't win", but still not "I win". Soulherder is unreliable as a beater because no evasion. Some people forget we have a 6/5 indestructible as our commander, if that were enough we'd probably have no trouble winning. Reins of Power require that the opponent have a board presence, something that my deck deeply dislikes.
EDIT2: While scouring the internet I found that Stasis + Smothering Tithe is absolutely dreadful. We just need a vigilant creature and the rest will usually work out. Stasis does nothing in our deck, though, and even though it's fetchable by Muddle that's not good enough.
The reason I really like blasting station is it is easily findable and plays with cards we already can find easily. For it to work though you need to have guide, image, lark and body double (IMHO - and the reason is because then you can recruiter chain into it instead of having to lucksack into it. Being able to recruiter for guide+body double+spellseeker for enlightened tutor, makes it super easy to find the missing pieces.
Finding Lark is hard, but since finding all the other pieces is easy it's not a big deal; Lark is so strong because it can start the combo when the other pieces are dead, including bringing back a dead trophy mage or spellseeker to get blasting station.
My gut read on Kefnet and what I know of your deck is basically that you don't have enough things to set it up, and not being able to find it reliably is another big problem. On the balance you rate to see about 2-3 of something you have 10 of in a typical game, and you rate to see a singleton you can't tutor for maybe once every 4 games. So packing that together the likelihood of you closing games reliably with Kefnet is pretty low I think.
I do think that Kefnet could be a great wincon, but I think you want closer to 20 cards that can make use of its ability and some of those should be capable of winning you the game on their own, stuff like:
--------------------------------------
Re: Closing it out
Turning the corner from "I have control of the board" to "everyone is really dead" is very difficult with this deck, basically any incarnation really, because you're trying to do things that are at odds a bit - you're trying to control the board by playing to the board for the most part. The wincons that tend to go along with that are mostly things like anthems and overrun effects, which are not really very good in our colors.
So you're left with options like:
1) Voltron - not reliable with ephara, because she's fairly easy to disrupt in ways that are annoying and tedious to deal with (e.g. they kill your Teferi, turning her off, all her equipment falls off, you just got tempo'd
2) Creature combo - The only pure creature combo in our color really that's efficient is Palinchron based (image or deadeye). the nice part is that combo works great with our other critters to turn the infinite mana into a wincondition (e.g. venser + palinchron + deadeye == gg). Main disadvantage is that they are very difficult to find. The Timestream Navigator combos can be here with Eldrazi displacer as a piece but again that is basically impossible to find reliably.
The mirror entity lark combo is also in here but it's 4 pieces which you can't tutor for half of them so I think it's pretty bad (and it bones your board if disrupted).
3) Spell combos of various sorts - infinite turns, blasting station. The nice thing in these colors is that they are way easier to find - and some of the creatures that are involved are fairly tutorable too (either 2 mana for muddle, artifacts for e-tutor, recruiterable, etc.).
-timestream combo with curio
-archaeomancer time warp combos
-kefnet nexus / approach type stuff
-lightning greaves/phantasmal/lark stuff
4) Fatties - stuff like Iona or Jin or Stormtide Leviathan or Tidespout Tyrant - the advantage of this approach is sometimes they just win and they don't take a lot of setup, but they also are hard to find in our colors when you need them.
After seriously tons of noodling on it, I really do not know what is right. I've tried all kinds of stuff over the years.
It's simple, compact, and you can tutor for everything and play backup pieces in venser, curio, displacer, soulherder, mistmeadow witch, temporal manip/capture of jingzhou if you want. The issue with these is that I don't like playing time warp combos because I have another deck that does that
In a vacuum Time warp is probably a better card in this deck than Blasting station. The reason I stick with it is mostly aesthetic. If you played my list and swapped either of those warps in for station, I think you would probably do a little better.
Because all the pieces are so easy to get and recur, it's really hard to throw you off the combo and you can easily swap in Mnemonic Wall if people start exiling your critters.
The annoying part about the combos that use the graveyard is, well, you need to answer RIP and other stuff like that. The nice part is our deck has tons of ways to remove those and isn't really overly graveyard dependent otherwise.
I hope this helps you, but long story short I think I would play Time Warp if you're trying to be the most competitive you can.
I see your point about Kefnet. Shame - I really really thought it would be great in action in Ephara because his ability could be relevant every single turn of play. But it's probably not worth it.
I think that if there were a white Hornet Queen it would change absolutely everything. Blinks, tutors and anthems all day every day.
Incidentally, now that I think of it, there's a hard lock on the table that pretty much says "I win": Knowledge Pool + Lavinia, Azorius Renegade / Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
This effectively prevents the opponent from casting any spells.
Together with some form of removal (while saving our creatures), like Winds of Abandon, it's a pretty guaranteed win.
Tutorability is still problematic, but Treasure Mage does exist, and Spellseeker into Enlightened Tutor still do the trick.
I see your point about Kefnet. Shame - I really really thought it would be great in action in Ephara because his ability could be relevant every single turn of play. But it's probably not worth it.
I think that if there were a white Hornet Queen it would change absolutely everything. Blinks, tutors and anthems all day every day.
Incidentally, now that I think of it, there's a hard lock on the table that pretty much says "I win": Knowledge Pool + Lavinia, Azorius Renegade / Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
This effectively prevents the opponent from casting any spells.
Together with some form of removal (while saving our creatures), like Winds of Abandon, it's a pretty guaranteed win.
Tutorability is still problematic, but Treasure Mage does exist, and Spellseeker into Enlightened Tutor still do the trick.
If, say, Mystical Teachings got a white version or even just a blue version, that's something I would kill for, but I nevre really thought of a Hornet queen effect. That's really something we could use. Even if it just made spirits.
So with the whole KP/Lavinia locks - you have to be careful because they:
1) do not prevent people from just slamming their commanders or casting from the yard, etc. there are a few quirky things it doesn't defend against that can get you.
2) Do not answer the board state
That's what I like about blasting station and/or time warp infinites - even if you are dead on board you can topdeck a time warp and the game's over.
I do like Lavinia on her own as a powerful hate effect vs. ramp decks - it really craps on mana doublers and giant genesis waves and lots of things we are bad at dealing with. And her interaction with spell queller is good.
I like it for a couple reasons. It can give you a creature for Ephara, so it doesn't feel like you are taking a turn off to cast it. It can gain us some much needed life. And, yes, it becomes a one sided board wipe when we need it. Now, the main issue I see is that getting the ultimate off can be tricky. Neither of our lists are exactly high on the life gain. Which means that even if we are already at 40 life, I can't see a situation where we don't have to tick up Ajani at least twice, if not 3 or 4 times, to gain the necessary life to get the wrath. And then if we are lower than 40?
Do you think it just works "out of the box"? If not, how much ancillary life gain do you figure needs to be included to make it so his ultimate is actually viable?
I like it for a couple reasons. It can give you a creature for Ephara, so it doesn't feel like you are taking a turn off to cast it. It can gain us some much needed life. And, yes, it becomes a one sided board wipe when we need it. Now, the main issue I see is that getting the ultimate off can be tricky. Neither of our lists are exactly high on the life gain. Which means that even if we are already at 40 life, I can't see a situation where we don't have to tick up Ajani at least twice, if not 3 or 4 times, to gain the necessary life to get the wrath. And then if we are lower than 40?
Do you think it just works "out of the box"? If not, how much ancillary life gain do you figure needs to be included to make it so his ultimate is actually viable?
Oh no, it definitely belongs in a different build. It's something Shermanido and I have been talking about for the last maybe 10 sets actually lol. There've been just a massive ton of support cards for Lifegain that work peculiarly well with Ephara.
I made a list of them actually (and then accidentally deleted it?:P).
I actually would not be surprised to see a build focusing on this be more powerful in casual or stompy metas than my build, though I am not sure what the exact configuration would look like.
One of the quirks of the whole "lifegain = tokens" stuff is you need to figure out a way to trigger it on other turns, because they are not self triggering (e.g. angelic accord + chorus does not generate a token every turn). But there are a number of instant speed effects, even just flash creatures are not horrid.
And now while I was screwing with it I accidentally just deleted it, so my apologies I started a new one from memory but it's gonna be fuzzy for a while: https://deckbox.org/sets/2383832
So I think in the deck playing Regna and sun droplet, this Ajani is supremely powerful. Much of the time you'll drop him and wipe the board one-sided, then start making bros. Worst case you drop him and make bros or gain life. Every mode is great in that deck.
We have yet another interesting spoiler today in a 2-drop that can ramp Ephara out early like pearl medallion but also makes enchantments cheaper. I could see a build going ~15-ish enchantments with Hall, and doing quite well.
So far I am really jazzed about this set's mechanics. Very interesting stuff. It's pretty unlikely we get anything new as always but it's a very cool set.
I will note that if you want a spellslinger deck, that new jeskai legend Kykar is basically the dream - you don't even need to play guys really, just Ephara, and maybe some spell interacting effects like new Kefnet, Arch, Mnemonic wall, spellseeker. Then your Impulse cantrips. That's bound to be a really neat deck.
I don't think there are enough payoffs to playing a ton of enchantments for that card to work. Uril decks will probably love that card, but it's a pass for me.
On the other hand, the other white rare 2 drop has got me absolutely infuriated about how good it is to run a lifegain build now, with luminarch ascension, and especially with Divine Visitation. That card + Visitation + blasting station is an infinite combo that wins the game.
I'm also curious at Field of the Dead since it can be an Emeria Angel on a land since we run so many nonbasics.
So, there are a ton of very strong enchantments we wouldn't mind playing but I think you're *probably* right. depends on if you wanted to slot in a couple enchantment creatures too - Archetype of Imagination is quite playable for example. Being a cost reducer for Ephara is quite powerful though, just in and of itself. Still, it's neat design space.
Yeah I think you would need to up the fetch count and probably play Expedition Map but that thing is pretty powerful. Also probably want to play Crucible of Worlds.
I very regularly have 7 different nonbasics and if I cut two for 2 more fetches it'd be even more consistent.
All in all I think the card is very strong, but getting to 7 lands is not incredibly easy in this deck. Games are often decided before then, and it ETBs tapped. It'd be a tough call for sure. I will probably pick a foil up if it's reasonably cheap just to have it.
I really like the art on that new Leyline of Anticipation. Hmm. Probably good enough to play, but would need to do some counting.
Edit to add some more running commentary
Flood of Tears seems better than maybe I was thinking. It's rough that it's sorcery speed but being able to redeploy Ephara and essentially bouncing everything for UU is pretty good. I think it's maybe a pretty good casual / cheap build. Pretty hard to stop with archaeomancer as well.
How will you pay only UU for the spell? Admittedly returning Ephara with it is pretty great, but it still costs 4UU. I guess you could say that you're getting the mana for Ephara back, but even then the color requirements are still there.
Also, I don't think I'm a fan. Hour of Revelation seems much less conditional, and much more of an actual solution than a delay tactic. The decks that will want Flood will most likely not have white.
How will you pay only UU for the spell? Admittedly returning Ephara with it is pretty great, but it still costs 4UU. I guess you could say that you're getting the mana for Ephara back, but even then the color requirements are still there.
Also, I don't think I'm a fan. Hour of Revelation seems much less conditional, and much more of an actual solution than a delay tactic. The decks that will want Flood will most likely not have white.
Yeah it's functionally UU, since you drop Ephara back down and don't have to recast her.
I don't think it's quite good enough but it's definitely neat tech potentially. I could see it being a fun way to cheat out Omniscience type stuff too potentially in some approaches to the deck.
Fundamentally I think Cyclonic rift is going to stay our go to tempo play, with hour as a second.
The white cavalier is not unreasonable. Reasonable body with permanent removal attached and a decent death effect. And it can present more power by targeting ephara.
I doubt I'll run it as the cost is high but it is solid. Nice to see white getting some passable critters even when they aren't right for us.
On the flip side if we decided someday to skip equipment having a few more good bodies might be nice.
My gut instinct is it's overcosted, but man it is insanely powerful. Pretty feasible to cast it, wheel the table, and win on the next endstep. Adding a few theft effects would make it quite reliable.
It does essentially become a wincon with eldrazi displacer or even venser.
Probably 3 big marks against it for me:
1) large mana cost with very poor nonevasive body
2) no flash
3) not recruiterable
I am pretty sure I will pick a foil up for the old ephara section of the binder but I don't think it's playable in my build.
I do think it's superbly strong in general UW control builds, or even Esper with reanimation though. Very powerful card.
I like Sephara, and not only because her name is similar to that of our Commander.
If we run Mesa and Luminarch as part of our main game plan, it's pretty easy to cast her for her alternate cost, and after casting her we have wrath insurance on our fliers. I really do wish it had an anthem effect too, though.
I'm guessing it'll be a bulk rare and that it'll be easy to acquire, so I'll get it and contemplate running more flying hatebears.
However without them the flier count is pretty miserable in your decklist so you probably won't take the offer.
I like Sephara, and not only because her name is similar to that of our Commander.
If we run Mesa and Luminarch as part of our main game plan, it's pretty easy to cast her for her alternate cost, and after casting her we have wrath insurance on our fliers. I really do wish it had an anthem effect too, though.
I'm guessing it'll be a bulk rare and that it'll be easy to acquire, so I'll get it and contemplate running more flying hatebears.
However without them the flier count is pretty miserable in your decklist so you probably won't take the offer.
Yeah, I think that sephara is really cool and very well designed for some ephara lists. I would need more fliers. I think i have 8 or 9.
Protecting our tokens is not really a big deal though, if someone wraths our sacred mesa tokens more power to them
It leaves me a little hopeful we'll get some other cool fliers though.
Cavalier of Storms is definitely worth mentioning, there are plenty of upsides on this card.
The flying body is one of the bigger ones we've seen, especially on a 5 drop.
The ETB brainstorm is amazing for blink value, as well as restacking the top of your library for Miracle and God-Eternal Kefnet shenanigans.
The death trigger isn't quite as resilient as Kefnet, but it's sturdy and smooths out the next couple of draws, again great in general and even better in Miracle Kefnet shells.
Overall I don't think it makes the cut in most versions, but my fingers are getting really itchy around a Isperia the Inscrutable package along with the previously mentioned Sephara. There are great legendary fliers, so that a historic package could really work together with stuff like Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Azor, the Lawbringer (which is great with bounce effects), etc.
However with recent printings I doubt we'll actually see a good hatebear be printed in the near future, let alone one that's recruiterable.
Yeah it's definitely a reasonably strong card, nice at having another way to get miracles back in your deck if you're into that too.
I could see a more beatdown aggro-control version of this deck with nothing but good creatures - get rid of all the support junk like Mesa, swords, anthems of any sort, and just play strong beaters and a control package.
The spiciness continues, in Brought Back.
Fetchable by both Muddle and Spellseeker. Is great at bringing back our stuff after a wrath for really cheap, even the noncreatures like Mesa and Curio, which is pretty rare for us. It's also pretty easy just cycling it to get back some creatures and drawing a card off of Ephara.
Makes a 4 card combo:
Wrath + Archaeomancer + Restoration Angel / other blinker + Brought Back = Wrath + Brought back each turn forever.
yeah brought back is definitely good. I am sure there are a ton of things I am not thinking of it can do.
Being so accessible with muddle/seeker is strong. There're ways you can start derpy loops with mistveil plains too.
It even lets you double ramp with fetchlands - fetch twice, pop this and you ramp 2.
Very powerful effect. Being able to protect your walkers is good, being able to protect blasting station is good.
Interestingly I am also borderline on whether Tale's end is strong enough to play. That is a lot of effect for 1U - counter target walker, paradox engine, fetchland, etc. I think it would be a very good choice for a 4th counterspell for decks wanting more than I play.
I think Archaeomancer is a great card in this deck. There may not be a lot of Instants or Sorceries, but there are enough to make him worthwhile. Also, him plus Evacuation gives you a soft lock if you need it. I personally am not a fan of Muddle but I can see its usefulness in certain situations.
Kefnet is likely better with some sort of instant win condition like Approach but overall, I don't think this deck runs enough Instants or sorceries to be worth it since you have to cast the copy right away. Most of those are reactive in nature so the value from Kefnet is likely lessened by that whereas Archaeomancer lets you get stuff back that can be used at more opportune times. If you have a higher concentration of good, proactive, instants or sorceries he might be worth it. I also don't think a 4/5 flyer (even for only 4 mana) is really that good either. I mean, it is "good", but I don't think it is good enough for this deck.
I admit I could be underestimating just being a 4/5 flyer that is hard to get rid of, but I think the vast majority of the time that is what he will be. So, if that alone is good enough to warrant his inclusion, I say go for it, but if you wouldn't include something that was just a 4/5 Indestructible (for comparison's sake) Flyer, I think I would suggest passing on Kefnet. And, if you would include that, I would just look to Kefnet the Mindful first as the card draw from him is likely to be more important overall and it shouldn't be too tough to keep your hand full.
I am mostly behind your changes Shermanido; the issue I am finding with Venser is more political than anything. I haven't set up the Gilded Drake lock in forever because people recognize the threat that Venser represents and make big plays to get rid of him every time he hits the table. I'm going to keep him for a while though because the variety of ways that I can get a gilded drake or some other beating with Venser is a lot.
Soulherder does a lot of the same stuff Venser does, but the main issue is Drake I think since that's the most common thing we have that is not ours.
Re: Kefnet/arch/etc
Arch is tutorable with recruiter. That alone is enough for me to prefer it over Kefnet. The second thing is it's very predictable. The amount of topdeck manipulation required to make Kefnet good is quite high.
The thing with arch is that the spells you cast are typically going to be the most important ones; you fished them out and bothered to cast them once, chances are good they are going to be desirable to cast again.
I think Keftnet wants you to have 30+ instants/sorceries and probably a number of time warp effects. The body is quite respectable though. I also think he demands scroll rack, top, brainstorm, ponder, preordain, mystical and portent at the minimum, which leads you down a path of playing a much lighter creature load but more impactful.
To be fair I think there is a deck there with Kefnet. Ephara is a decent commander for that because it doesn't take a lot to keep triggering her card advantage, and extra turn effects are really good with her with one of the passive token producers like Elspeth, or even Doomsayer.
Kefnet is weirdly pretty good with some of the stuff you would want to play in a spellslinger build though, stuff like White Sun's Zenith and secure the wastes. Secure in particular represents W for 2 tokens and then able to cast it again.
But I think to play that card you're talking about a major redesign and I think it would take me a year to get that right.
Approach of the Second Sun is again desirous of topdeck manipulation spells and basically combos with Kefnet - and plays really well with some of the more powerhouse mana producers. I think that's a reasonable potential wincon, especially as it only costs 12 mana or so to win the turn it pops.
I have always liked the card, but I don't think I would play it without going at a redesign or an additional Ephara build (something I have flirted with honestly -- I almost built the arcbound ravager version a few times:)).
Incidentally I think an ephara spellslinger build wants archaeomancer in addition to kefnet. The card is extremely powerful and represents a number of ways to win games -- a Time warp off the top with Kefnet represents 3 turns in a row with arch, and infinite turns on accident (displacer or soulherder).
re: Kefnet the mindful
I don't think this deck ever wants to play 3U to draw a card, but it's not impossible. It is nice that Ephara tends to give you a grip full of cards to let Kefnet attack / block, but I think the competition for 4 drops is pretty high personally. I would probably play a lot of stuff first.
Not the least is Spark Double which is moderately absurd in this deck period.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think I would be happy with one Rack activation per round, that ought to be enough.
God-Eternal Kefnet -> Mystical Tutor -> Brainstorm
Put Brainstorm on top. When drawing Brainstorm cast the copy putting the original card on top of your library. Rinse and repeat.
Instants and Sorceries that I could copy for benefit: (overall 11)
Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Tithe, Mystical Tutor[/card, Enlightened Tutor, Cyclonic Rift + Winds of Abandon (note that the Overload can be used in the copy), Unexpectedly Absent, Supreme Verdict, Hour of Revelation.
Also, like I said, there are Brainstorm and Scroll Rack already in the list as topdeck manipulation to enable Terminus (though I probably won't be copying that one with Kefnet).
True, counterspells feel pretty bad with him. However I only have 4 in my list, and to me it still feels worthwhile.
Overall, after considering all the above along with the baseline of the body, it seems to me like Kefnet is a solid add to my list.
The thing is that I also feel like we're having a discussion on entirely different things.
The way my deck typically plays out is playing hatebears to effectively counter opposing spells, and to bait opposing removal or trade with their early threats. Once my opponents finally get their game plan on the board (which will most likely be creatures), my deck will likely already have a wipe ready to clean up. This will have cost my opponents a bunch of cards and resources so they will probably get stuck with not much left, and then it's my opportunity to win. The question I'm trying to answer is - how do I win?
To me, Kefnet might represent that wincon in addition to doing other stuff - he's a good body that's hard to get rid of, and he doubles my cards for never ending value until my opponents' resources are depleted, while punching them in the face and never dying. I prefer this to Rite of Replication since copying a bunch of bears isn't really close enough to end games. Archaeomancer also doubles a single instant / sorcery, or more if you can blink it, but unlike Kefnet it doesn't really represent a wincon - just more fragile value.
In fact, let's talk about wincons in Ephara, because it feels like that's a discussion that's needed to happen for a while.
We've discussed the Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blasting Station + clones wincon, we've tried it, and though it seems to have worked it seemed to be almost random in my list, as well as unsatisfactory.
Apart from the above combo, the closest things to wincons I currently have in the deck are Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Helm of Possession (although not really). I've already mentioned cards like Nexus of Fate and Approach of the Second Sun that might be good to win with.
I've thought of Iona, Shield of Emeria since she's both a hate effect and a punching machine, and it may be that in the long term I may slot in Thran Temporal Gateway to help put in amazing threats at instant speed. However, getting her into play without that artifact seems to be almost impossible.
I've thought of more anthem effects in Angel of Jubilation and Thistledown Liege because they also do stuff the deck likes (hate and flash). But it seems somewhat underwhelming, and rather seems like "a hatebear with an anthem" rather than "a wincon that's also a hatebear".
I may slot Mother of Runes back in and join it with Giver of Runes in order to help Ephara punch our opponents to death, but they are so fragile that relying on them seems doomed to fail.
I may slot Luminarch Ascension back in and hope to God that my opponents don't eat my face the instant it comes down, because that's what often happened with it.
I may think of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur with Laboratory Maniac, then I'd be reminded that it's a silly combo and an unlikely one.
What are your thoughts?
EDIT: To mention a few more of the cards we've recently been talking about:
Sword of Sinew and Steel as well as the obvious SoFaF can help buff up creatures to smash faces while still helping lock down the board.
Solitary Confinement is more of the "you don't win", but still not "I win".
Soulherder is unreliable as a beater because no evasion. Some people forget we have a 6/5 indestructible as our commander, if that were enough we'd probably have no trouble winning.
Reins of Power require that the opponent have a board presence, something that my deck deeply dislikes.
EDIT2: While scouring the internet I found that Stasis + Smothering Tithe is absolutely dreadful. We just need a vigilant creature and the rest will usually work out. Stasis does nothing in our deck, though, and even though it's fetchable by Muddle that's not good enough.
Finding Lark is hard, but since finding all the other pieces is easy it's not a big deal; Lark is so strong because it can start the combo when the other pieces are dead, including bringing back a dead trophy mage or spellseeker to get blasting station.
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re: Kefnet
My gut read on Kefnet and what I know of your deck is basically that you don't have enough things to set it up, and not being able to find it reliably is another big problem. On the balance you rate to see about 2-3 of something you have 10 of in a typical game, and you rate to see a singleton you can't tutor for maybe once every 4 games. So packing that together the likelihood of you closing games reliably with Kefnet is pretty low I think.
I do think that Kefnet could be a great wincon, but I think you want closer to 20 cards that can make use of its ability and some of those should be capable of winning you the game on their own, stuff like:
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Re: Closing it out
Turning the corner from "I have control of the board" to "everyone is really dead" is very difficult with this deck, basically any incarnation really, because you're trying to do things that are at odds a bit - you're trying to control the board by playing to the board for the most part. The wincons that tend to go along with that are mostly things like anthems and overrun effects, which are not really very good in our colors.
So you're left with options like:
1) Voltron - not reliable with ephara, because she's fairly easy to disrupt in ways that are annoying and tedious to deal with (e.g. they kill your Teferi, turning her off, all her equipment falls off, you just got tempo'd
2) Creature combo - The only pure creature combo in our color really that's efficient is Palinchron based (image or deadeye). the nice part is that combo works great with our other critters to turn the infinite mana into a wincondition (e.g. venser + palinchron + deadeye == gg). Main disadvantage is that they are very difficult to find. The Timestream Navigator combos can be here with Eldrazi displacer as a piece but again that is basically impossible to find reliably.
The mirror entity lark combo is also in here but it's 4 pieces which you can't tutor for half of them so I think it's pretty bad (and it bones your board if disrupted).
3) Spell combos of various sorts - infinite turns, blasting station. The nice thing in these colors is that they are way easier to find - and some of the creatures that are involved are fairly tutorable too (either 2 mana for muddle, artifacts for e-tutor, recruiterable, etc.).
-timestream combo with curio
-archaeomancer time warp combos
-kefnet nexus / approach type stuff
-lightning greaves/phantasmal/lark stuff
4) Fatties - stuff like Iona or Jin or Stormtide Leviathan or Tidespout Tyrant - the advantage of this approach is sometimes they just win and they don't take a lot of setup, but they also are hard to find in our colors when you need them.
After seriously tons of noodling on it, I really do not know what is right. I've tried all kinds of stuff over the years.
The "best" combo is probably:
It's simple, compact, and you can tutor for everything and play backup pieces in venser, curio, displacer, soulherder, mistmeadow witch, temporal manip/capture of jingzhou if you want. The issue with these is that I don't like playing time warp combos because I have another deck that does that
In a vacuum Time warp is probably a better card in this deck than Blasting station. The reason I stick with it is mostly aesthetic. If you played my list and swapped either of those warps in for station, I think you would probably do a little better.
Because all the pieces are so easy to get and recur, it's really hard to throw you off the combo and you can easily swap in Mnemonic Wall if people start exiling your critters.
The annoying part about the combos that use the graveyard is, well, you need to answer RIP and other stuff like that. The nice part is our deck has tons of ways to remove those and isn't really overly graveyard dependent otherwise.
I hope this helps you, but long story short I think I would play Time Warp if you're trying to be the most competitive you can.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think that if there were a white Hornet Queen it would change absolutely everything. Blinks, tutors and anthems all day every day.
Incidentally, now that I think of it, there's a hard lock on the table that pretty much says "I win":
Knowledge Pool + Lavinia, Azorius Renegade / Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
This effectively prevents the opponent from casting any spells.
Together with some form of removal (while saving our creatures), like Winds of Abandon, it's a pretty guaranteed win.
Tutorability is still problematic, but Treasure Mage does exist, and Spellseeker into Enlightened Tutor still do the trick.
If, say, Mystical Teachings got a white version or even just a blue version, that's something I would kill for, but I nevre really thought of a Hornet queen effect. That's really something we could use. Even if it just made spirits.
So with the whole KP/Lavinia locks - you have to be careful because they:
1) do not prevent people from just slamming their commanders or casting from the yard, etc. there are a few quirky things it doesn't defend against that can get you.
2) Do not answer the board state
That's what I like about blasting station and/or time warp infinites - even if you are dead on board you can topdeck a time warp and the game's over.
I do like Lavinia on her own as a powerful hate effect vs. ramp decks - it really craps on mana doublers and giant genesis waves and lots of things we are bad at dealing with. And her interaction with spell queller is good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/811401-ajani-strength-of-the-pride#c1
Lifegain Ephara with one sided board wipes anyone? Ugh.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Do you think it just works "out of the box"? If not, how much ancillary life gain do you figure needs to be included to make it so his ultimate is actually viable?
Oh no, it definitely belongs in a different build. It's something Shermanido and I have been talking about for the last maybe 10 sets actually lol. There've been just a massive ton of support cards for Lifegain that work peculiarly well with Ephara.
I made a list of them actually (and then accidentally deleted it?:P).
There're a number of effects that generate tokens out of passive lifegain like Crested Sunmare and Angelic Accord and Resplendent Angel.
Stuff like Mastery of the Unseen can generate absurd amounts of life.
I actually would not be surprised to see a build focusing on this be more powerful in casual or stompy metas than my build, though I am not sure what the exact configuration would look like.
One of the quirks of the whole "lifegain = tokens" stuff is you need to figure out a way to trigger it on other turns, because they are not self triggering (e.g. angelic accord + chorus does not generate a token every turn). But there are a number of instant speed effects, even just flash creatures are not horrid.
And now while I was screwing with it I accidentally just deleted it, so my apologies I started a new one from memory but it's gonna be fuzzy for a while:
https://deckbox.org/sets/2383832
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Even then, cards like Regna, the Redeemer and Sun Droplet would probably be waaay better.
If you're an Oloro, Ageless Ascetic or a Licia, Sanguine Tribune deck, this card is golden. Otherwise it feels like a giant trap.
So I think in the deck playing Regna and sun droplet, this Ajani is supremely powerful. Much of the time you'll drop him and wipe the board one-sided, then start making bros. Worst case you drop him and make bros or gain life. Every mode is great in that deck.
We have yet another interesting spoiler today in a 2-drop that can ramp Ephara out early like pearl medallion but also makes enchantments cheaper. I could see a build going ~15-ish enchantments with Hall, and doing quite well.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/core-set-2020/36641-starfield-mystic
So far I am really jazzed about this set's mechanics. Very interesting stuff. It's pretty unlikely we get anything new as always but it's a very cool set.
I will note that if you want a spellslinger deck, that new jeskai legend Kykar is basically the dream - you don't even need to play guys really, just Ephara, and maybe some spell interacting effects like new Kefnet, Arch, Mnemonic wall, spellseeker. Then your Impulse cantrips. That's bound to be a really neat deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
On the other hand, the other white rare 2 drop has got me absolutely infuriated about how good it is to run a lifegain build now, with luminarch ascension, and especially with Divine Visitation. That card + Visitation + blasting station is an infinite combo that wins the game.
I'm also curious at Field of the Dead since it can be an Emeria Angel on a land since we run so many nonbasics.
re: Field of the dead
Yeah I think you would need to up the fetch count and probably play Expedition Map but that thing is pretty powerful. Also probably want to play Crucible of Worlds.
I very regularly have 7 different nonbasics and if I cut two for 2 more fetches it'd be even more consistent.
Might also be a case for playing Wandering Atlas again.
All in all I think the card is very strong, but getting to 7 lands is not incredibly easy in this deck. Games are often decided before then, and it ETBs tapped. It'd be a tough call for sure. I will probably pick a foil up if it's reasonably cheap just to have it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Edit to add some more running commentary
Flood of Tears seems better than maybe I was thinking. It's rough that it's sorcery speed but being able to redeploy Ephara and essentially bouncing everything for UU is pretty good. I think it's maybe a pretty good casual / cheap build. Pretty hard to stop with archaeomancer as well.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Also, I don't think I'm a fan. Hour of Revelation seems much less conditional, and much more of an actual solution than a delay tactic. The decks that will want Flood will most likely not have white.
Yeah it's functionally UU, since you drop Ephara back down and don't have to recast her.
I don't think it's quite good enough but it's definitely neat tech potentially. I could see it being a fun way to cheat out Omniscience type stuff too potentially in some approaches to the deck.
Fundamentally I think Cyclonic rift is going to stay our go to tempo play, with hour as a second.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I doubt I'll run it as the cost is high but it is solid. Nice to see white getting some passable critters even when they aren't right for us.
On the flip side if we decided someday to skip equipment having a few more good bodies might be nice.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is just obscene and a possible wincon if we flicker it enough. The cost, however, is the worst part about it. What do you think?
It does essentially become a wincon with eldrazi displacer or even venser.
Probably 3 big marks against it for me:
1) large mana cost with very poor nonevasive body
2) no flash
3) not recruiterable
I am pretty sure I will pick a foil up for the old ephara section of the binder but I don't think it's playable in my build.
I do think it's superbly strong in general UW control builds, or even Esper with reanimation though. Very powerful card.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
If we run Mesa and Luminarch as part of our main game plan, it's pretty easy to cast her for her alternate cost, and after casting her we have wrath insurance on our fliers. I really do wish it had an anthem effect too, though.
I'm guessing it'll be a bulk rare and that it'll be easy to acquire, so I'll get it and contemplate running more flying hatebears.
However without them the flier count is pretty miserable in your decklist so you probably won't take the offer.
Yeah, I think that sephara is really cool and very well designed for some ephara lists. I would need more fliers. I think i have 8 or 9.
Protecting our tokens is not really a big deal though, if someone wraths our sacred mesa tokens more power to them
It leaves me a little hopeful we'll get some other cool fliers though.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The flying body is one of the bigger ones we've seen, especially on a 5 drop.
The ETB brainstorm is amazing for blink value, as well as restacking the top of your library for Miracle and God-Eternal Kefnet shenanigans.
The death trigger isn't quite as resilient as Kefnet, but it's sturdy and smooths out the next couple of draws, again great in general and even better in Miracle Kefnet shells.
Overall I don't think it makes the cut in most versions, but my fingers are getting really itchy around a Isperia the Inscrutable package along with the previously mentioned Sephara. There are great legendary fliers, so that a historic package could really work together with stuff like Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Azor, the Lawbringer (which is great with bounce effects), etc.
However with recent printings I doubt we'll actually see a good hatebear be printed in the near future, let alone one that's recruiterable.
I could see a more beatdown aggro-control version of this deck with nothing but good creatures - get rid of all the support junk like Mesa, swords, anthems of any sort, and just play strong beaters and a control package.
Even if you started from my list you could cut:
And add some stuff like
And start focusing more on the beaters and instant interaction I guess.
I don't think it's for me personally but I could see it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Fetchable by both Muddle and Spellseeker. Is great at bringing back our stuff after a wrath for really cheap, even the noncreatures like Mesa and Curio, which is pretty rare for us. It's also pretty easy just cycling it to get back some creatures and drawing a card off of Ephara.
Makes a 4 card combo:
Wrath + Archaeomancer + Restoration Angel / other blinker + Brought Back = Wrath + Brought back each turn forever.
Being so accessible with muddle/seeker is strong. There're ways you can start derpy loops with mistveil plains too.
It even lets you double ramp with fetchlands - fetch twice, pop this and you ramp 2.
Very powerful effect. Being able to protect your walkers is good, being able to protect blasting station is good.
Interestingly I am also borderline on whether Tale's end is strong enough to play. That is a lot of effect for 1U - counter target walker, paradox engine, fetchland, etc. I think it would be a very good choice for a 4th counterspell for decks wanting more than I play.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall