A few things, I feel u need the cheap blue card draw (ponder, brainstorm etc) to smooth out ur early game and make sure u hit land drops. Control decks need as much mana as possible esp in the early game and ca as possible.
Damnation. Best black bw. I didn't c it in ur list.
I also feel like u need a way to end the game quick enough, u can't always control the board indefinitely. And games that drag on forever are not fun for ur opponents. Control in general isn't fun to play against, don't make it more miserable than u have to. That being said u may need a way to refill ur library if ur games go on too long but that would need testing.
Honestly, there are some things you're doing that don't make sense to me. I've never thought the tactic of not playing good cards because they make you look dangerous was a very good idea. Necropotence seems especially powerful, because the discard going to exile helps you retrieve specific cards from your graveyard. Yet you choose not to play these cards because they put targets on you, but then play other typically obnoxious choices like Strip Mine locks? I'd encourage you just to go cutthroat. Let the target be painted on you - your political shenanigans will help you evade them.
Ponder and brainstorm are both kind of bad here because they make pretty weak targets for Tasigur's ability, so you'll be sure to end up stuck with them if you hit them in the late-game. Brainstorm is the only one of the bunch I'd consider, since you can dump lands from lftl and turn it into roughly a 5 mana draw 3, or at least a 5 mana draw 3 discard 2, as an instant, which isn't the worst. As far as reliably hitting lands, this deck goes for lftl very quickly and just uses that to guarantee land drops for the rest of the game typically.
Damnation is, at best, the third best black wipe behind o-stone and toxic deluge, and this deck also has access to other wipes that aren't (entirely) black. I'm not a huge fan of wipes for a deck like this in general, since pressing the "reset" button on the field means that your opponents don't have a reason to focus on each other anymore (which is kind of this deck's goal). Greatly oversimplifying, wipes are better for hard control, targeted removal is better for political control, because you want your opponents to be able to get a little out of hand so that they'll have reason to fight among themselves, while still holding key cards to stop them at a moment's notice if things get out of hand. That said, hard/political control balance is something you could tinker with, however I think the more you go hard control the less likely that Tasigur is your best choice for commander.
Generally my opponents don't have any problem just scooping when it's clear they can't get through my wall of control. I'm considering spitting image as a wincon, and possibly worm harvest, but besides that I really haven't seen any that I think work for this deck. If you've got other suggestions, go for it.
@razzliox
Not so much "not playing good cards" as "not playing good cards at inopportune times". Dropping Necro in the early game is much more likely to turn the game into an Xv1 earlier than this deck is ready to handle it, and this deck isn't really capable of handling early hate from multiple opponents. I could build a hard control deck that uses more wipes and CA so that it can handle multiple enemies better in the early game, but that's not really what tasigur is good at, I think you'd be better off with Damia or mimeo for that sort of thing. In the late game, when I go for the kill (usually signaled by playing seedborn or prophet) Necro would be fine, but so far I've never lost a game after going into endgame mode so I don't think I need the help, and it's dead (or worse than dead) early.
Strip mine locks are less threatening because, even if I have strip mine + crucible (which can happen early if I happen to draw the strip mine and draw or tutor for crucible), in a 4-man game it's not really terribly threatening. It's not until the endgame that they actually do anything. Sure, it's obnoxious THEN, but that's when I can deal with it, and both cards serve useful purposes at all stages of the game, whereas necro is basically unplayable for this deck until quite late.
Discard to exile isn't really very useful, but more importantly rarely happens because I usually grab reliquary tower with my lftl intuition package.
Political shenanigans are completely useless when playing against competent opponents if you make yourself the threat, making Tasigur a bad commander if you're planning to play early powerful cards. If you want a hard control commander, I'd go child of alara all the way. No politics, no tricks, no permanents. Tasigur offers something a little different, which is what makes him interesting.
I still don't think I need any kind of wincon. Thus far I've never needed one (unless you count seedborn/prophet, which is fair). I'd be curious to get suggestions, but considering how Tasigur works I don't think it's worth cluttering up early draws with endgame cards, and it's next to impossible to get them into my hand for the late-game (with exception for restrace, which is why it's considered).
I'm surprised how many people are missing the point of your deck. I think it is a great idea to devote a deck in entirety to a strategy like this. It fosters innovation and allows you to win outside the generic and boring methods.
It is refreshing to see a list that doesn't just fill the list with good cards because they are good. Deck builders too often start with 80 mandatory cards and fill in the rest with synergy. It is oftentimes much more effective to start with what supports your strategy and improve from there.
PS - who needs a "wincon" when your general has 4 power in deck filled to the brim with answers.
I'm surprised how many people are missing the point of your deck. I think it is a great idea to devote a deck in entirety to a strategy like this. It fosters innovation and allows you to win outside the generic and boring methods.
It is refreshing to see a list that doesn't just fill the list with good cards because they are good. Deck builders too often start with 80 mandatory cards and fill in the rest with synergy. It is oftentimes much more effective to start with what supports your strategy and improve from there.
PS - who needs a "wincon" when your general has 4 power in deck filled to the brim with answers.
Thanks, I am trying to keep this deck as true to its original vision as possible. I think Tasigur's closest ancestor was Phelddagrif, at least in how I see their decks, although Phelddagrif needs more CA from his deck, and can afford to play a harder control game since he's less of a threat on his own.
Comparing Tasigur to something like Pheldagriff makes a lot more sense. What was bugging me was my belief that you were hyping Tasigur more than its power level warrants. At least, that was the impression I got from the way you described your deck early on in the thread; in the original post, you rightfully state Tasigur's strength lies within political manipulation, but from my perspective, you also raised him on a pedestal and left it at that. I'm not mad and I certainly don't want to argue, but I was bugged a bit by that (I think) at first. Perhaps a good deal of other readers feel similar as I did, but I am probably just being stoopid here.
Anyways, good luck. You have me sold, so I will try him out too and maybe I will be able to help out later. Gonna build an EDH out of junk counters and removal and see how that goes. I'll even play it unsleeved!
I played a similar build to OP's (different manabase, Ashes to Ashes, Reckless Spite), and it was extremely fun. However, watch out when trying those two cards out even though they are excellent removal. I was hovering around 15-10 life most game because of them, even though they answer a lot (especially Ashes to Ashes). I'm thinking of dropping it for another counter or Gild/Sever the Bloodline due to how potent exiling is. Also, Villainous Wealth, though a fun card, is not too good in here due to how it really wants you to tap out, and still a decent chance of it whiffing. Just going to shove in an instant speed removal there instead. Abrupt Decay is powerful early game, but loses a lot fast and becomes dead against so many threats.
Edit: Other great things I didn't mention the first time:
Casting your general for B, consistently, feels excellent since you are able to have so much mana open afterwards. Alchemist's Refuge is not that good in this build. Another version, though, might love it a lot.
As for replacements in the cards I'm playing, going to try out Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits. Both are instant speed, one helps dig deeper, the other is a replacement wincon for Villainous Wealth.
So I got lucky and pulled a Tasigur in the prerelease and decided to sleeve up a deck with cards I had laying around for games on Sunday. My deck was pretty budget and not optimal but Tasigur is just a complete BEAST. Tasigur makes cards that would usually just be OK in EDH because of the single target, suddenly amazing when you cast them a few times in the game (in my case Reality Shift was the winner card).
Now a few things I will likely upgrade in my janky list after playing 6 games:
1) I needed some win cons. The OP uses Land Destruction and Crucible + Exploration to eventually take the lead which I like, but I think I would also throw in a Bribery and Treachery. Lethal Vapors Might also be good to put down once u have the board cleared and are swinging with Tasigur. I played with a Villainous Wealth but wasn't super impressed, might side it in for 1v1's tho.
2) I needed way more board wipes. I think I will get a Crux Of Fate, Damnation, and Toxic Deluge to deal with swarms of creatures. Despite all the removal I had I still couln't keep up with 3 other players dropping the goods.
3) Delving was great to thin my Graveyard but there was one game where my Exile pile got huge and I had almost decked myself. I think the deck needs at least 1 way to shuffle the graveyard, or tuck cards. The one that comes to mind for me is Bow of Nylea. The least relevant ability there is the +1/+1 counter but that still has the potential to make you commander kill in 1 less swing. I'm going to look for more options though.
4) Cards like Ponder and Preordain just felt bad. When in my yard they were always what I got back from Tasigur. I had to delve them away before I could start getting the removal I wanted.
Cards not in your list I found performed very well:
Void Snare - 1 mana bounce a permanent. Only downside is Sorcery but its a catch all for stuff that needs to go Reality Shift - Exile is great and i would replace one of the Pongify effects with this. Not only does it get rid of a creature but potentially exiles a spell from the top of their library. It has a small chance of hitting a creature, but thats a risk i'm milling to take to remove a Avacyn. Torrent Elemental - Great card to delve away, and late game lets you get through damage. Plus it made a great blocker. Might just be a win more card though. might look for a way to keep the creatures tapped though.
I had a blast playing this, and even with a lower card power I still managed to hold my own in a pretty competitive playgroup. Also turn 1 stifling a fetchland is always super fun.
Bribery also helps us get a Seedborn Muse or Prophet of Kruphix easier too. I totally forgot about Treachery; that one is great because it still leaves us with mana open. I think I will still try out Empty the Pits for now. Instant speed and delving with a giant graveyard can help push through for a lot of damage to end things quickly.
No more testing, been prereleasing all weekend. I pulled a Tasigur in the first one, and traded for a foil one for lulz (despite my dislike of foils, my love of Tasigur overrides it).
@Cyxics
Unsleeved with suboptimal cards might make the political aspect work better. For me, I can't run suboptimal cards if I have the best, though. Bit of a character flaw.
@Artaud
Mana drain and whatnot are totally unnecessary, I think if you put money into the deck the first place should be the manabase and intuition for the lftl/crucible package stuff.
Most of the cards you listed I think aren't necessary for the same reason other wincons aren't necessary. GSZ isn't equivalent to another muse/prophet because it can't be recurred with volrath's stronghold. Icy blast is just way too small of an impact.
@KissMyAssassin
The deck probably works fine with suboptimal removal. Personally I'm not big on ashes to ashes because of being sorcery speed, but the other removal seems fine. Although definitely 5 life every time adds up when tasigur keeps recurring it. Deed is definitely awesome, as is delve keeping tasigur cheap all game.
Bribery doesn't do what seedborn or prophet do. I just don't think it fits the deck. Treachery is better, it may end up with a slot although it's also likely to draw hate. Empty the pits seems like a trap to me, but feel free to try it, I like that it's an instant at least.
@wonkstar
Lethal vapors seems really bad. Best case someone just skips their turn, worst case they kill Tasigur and then play a bunch of dangerous artifacts/enchantments etc and you have to skip your own turn. Board-wipes wise, ideally at least one other person will help you recur the few that you have, I'd run more tutors instead. Bow of Nylea is unnecessary because volrath's stronghold and/or academy ruins can keep shoving stuff on top of the deck if we run out of cards (you can use removal on your own artifact/creature if necessary). As for point #4, yep, called it.
void snare is bad, I would run chain of vapor way before void snare. Reality shift has a good chance of going in (although the logic of getting rid of a spell off the top is flawed, exile for 2 is still a solid deal). Torrent Elemental I don't think is worth it, at least in my version there are few ways to exile him and he just doesn't do very much besides make tasigur unblockable, which I can already do with crappy lands. I did get 3 over the weekend though, ha.
Don't stifle a fetchland. That is a waste of a stifle (unless it's 1v1, in which case go nuts).
More 3 player games, ugh, but at least they weren't hellbent on killing me out of the gate. Game 1 was Roon and Talrand. Roon got out to an early lead, but then I hit my torpor orb off Tas and let talrand pick, which shut down Roon considerably, but he was still drawing a lot of cards and playing a lot of creatures. I managed to not get my loam package going and struggled with lands for a long time, which was annoying. I teamed up with Talrand to kill Roon off, shortly after finally hitting my loam off entomb with burgeoning and exploration on the field and ramping quickly. I had arcane denial, mana drain, constant mists, and abrupt decay, which was aimed at his pretty ridiculous runechanter's pike, but I screwed up my mana tapping. He attacks, I abrupt decay, he misdirections, I arcane denial, he counterspells...and I can't pay the green to fog (or the mana drain) despite having 2 mana open. Damn. But it's my fault, not the deck. Next turn I would definitely have been able to start locking him out of the game with my fog for protection, and he had no more counterspells.
Game 2 Talrand switches for Phenax and I had to promise not to tutor for Torpor orb or Roon wouldn't play (lol). Phenax does precisely jack all game except help fuel Roon a bit, except for when he topdecks a tormod's crypt just as I'm about to ostone away the insane madness going on for Roon's board (he's drawn 30 cards or so, got recursion shenanigans with body double and reveillark...we're in deep deep trouble and it's only turn 6 or so, despite me removing his birthing pod). Unfortunately ostone and crypt don't work out quite perfectly, but we still exile most of his stuff and get rid of a lot of his ramp including mirari's wake that was making things insane. Roon starts to get out more crazy stuff, but I hit my torpor orb again off Tas and Phenax obliges. Unfortunately this time he has an austere command which kills Tas and my orb. I go to cast tas to get back orb, and Phenax promptly quits. Crap. I exile all nonlands except torpor orb from my grave and activate tas, but I hit a pongify. Could be worse. He has infinite combo palinchron + DEN in hand, but he can't play around the pongify so he recurs his austere command and angel of finalitys my grave. With just enough to activate Tas once more, I nail 2 lands off the top and get back orb. I untap, play crucible, wasteland his white away, and he scoops. Dude just did not like torpor orb.
Overall the deck performed admirably. I wasn't feeling great after last week, but this time things went fine. I got lots of great political picks, and lots of last-minute game saves with the right piece of control off his ability. Call me crazy but I think people are less intimidated when you have the actual card of your commander. I think having to use my phone as my commander last week made people paranoid. Biggest lesson from this week: be very careful about which lands you tap, especially with filters.
@inked
Not sure why he'd be any better than any other BUG commander. Call me an idealist, but I think Tasigur is actively fighting building any kind of combo deck because he can't rely on getting any particular piece back (except when you get insanely lucky getting back a torpor orb against roon, bwahaha).
Ok so i got a chance to upgrade my deck at my LGS and play a few more games with a more tuned deck. After a lot of time looking for some alternate I finally decided on using a combination of lands and equipment to win.
So here is my current Deck List, which I was quite happy with:
Basically the end game goal is to get Runechanter's Pike or Lashwrithe equiped on to either Tasigur or one of my man lands (Inkmoth Nexus being the best option) and start knocking people out of the game.
I decided to include a few extra ways to get my win lands. Realms Uncharted & Intuition will basically grab what i need. I especially like Realms Uncharted because I suspect people will think it is just a ramp spell and be eager to give it back to me when i activate Tasigur.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is a win con all by herself. The +1 is great to keep threats down, the -1 can draw tons of cards. But that ultimate is a game ender if you can get there, which will all our removal and counter spells is not too far fetched.
I also threw in a few cards I think are powerful but have yet to play them like Polymorphist's Jest and Consuming Vapors. I'm interested to see how they do.
Tasigar is really good at 2 things: Filling the graveyard & returning things from the graveyard. I think you're werking backwards which is why you may be having a difficult time. You should be playing more flashback cards because if they get milled, you still have access to them. Also you need cantrips and Library manipulation to 1. Decide What/When to mill 2. fill the graveyard fast for his delve cost. In an empty graveyard you'll be getting the weaker of the 2 cards most likely, but with a land behind the other card you're guaranteed a hit no matter what it is, hence the manipulation. You can form a soft lock with a counterspell, use Tasigar's abillity, mill lands and keep getting the counter back. Limiting your opponents options is important for this guy, you don't want your opponents giving you junk off of his ability, but if they do - you can fallback on the flashback cards. Eating garbage cards from your own graveyard limits opponents options too. Being reacitve can be fun but this guy can really take the fight to the opponent.
Rakshasa Vizier - (Can take out opponents in 1 swing if set up, synergy with psychotaog, bojuka bog & relic of progenitus. Draw 3 cards and attack for 11 with treasure cruise) Psychatog - (Same, another finisher) Kederekt Leviathan - (Good sweeper, unearth if dumped) Guile - (Shuffled if dumped, Good finisher since you have a lot of counterspells) Dread - (Shuffled if dumped, Protects well, and hits hard) Desertion - (Maybe catch someone's bomb, and ride it to victory) Time Warp - (Because it's time warp) Bribery - (Ride someone's bomb to victory)
I don't think you understand how this deck works. Because it does actually work quite well (although it is hard to play, by design).
Removing useless cards from the grave is almost totally unnecessary. Nearly every card in the deck is relevant at every point in the game.
The reason that's the case is because I'm not running any low-impact cards like mirri's guile or ponder or think twice. Setting up topdecks is only relevant if (1) you're trying to force your opponents to give you your wincon, which is really difficult to do with Tasigur to the point that you should be playing someone else if that's your goal, and that's part of why I love him, or (2) you're filling your deck with low-impact cards that work badly when you're paying to recur them with Tasigur - stuff like ponder and mirri's guile are great for 1, but horrendously bad for 5 - and you have to get rid of them before your opponents waste your time recurring them.
Treasure Cruise and Dig through Time are the only cards that I'm tempted by in that category, but I still think they're kind of clunky since, while the first delve is great, the second and third one get pretty awkward and eventually the spell just becomes uncastable. They're not bad options, but I don't think they're necessary. I'd rather save the Delve for Tasigur so he's reliably cheap.
Increasing ambition is probably a decent lynchpin for a combo-ier version of this deck, since it can't get stuck in the yard like other wincons can. It's one of the only flashback cards that's actually worth running. That said, it's expensive and sorcery speed, and I don't think anything in my deck is so critical that I'm willing to pay that much to get it on my own turn.
Fervent Denial, logic knot, and forgotten lore are all just really weak cards.
Most of the bombs you listed I don't see being worth it. Guile I like but I don't think it's reliable enough here. Psychatog would take exiling almost your entire deck to KO someone. Time warp I've considered for a combo win, but if your deck is in your graveyard and you're recurring enough of it to reliably get back the time warp, you kinda win regardless. And unless you're "going off" an extra turn isn't really that great here since the deck does most of its work on other peoples' turns.
I'm curious why you think I'm "werking [sic] backwards" or "having a difficult time"? This deck has been working quite well, and I like that it's very difficult to play. I think if your Tasigur deck ISN'T difficult to play, you're probably doing it wrong, and should just be running some more mundane commander like Damia, Sidisi, or Mimeo.
Not sure why he'd be any better than any other BUG commander. Call me an idealist, but I think Tasigur is actively fighting building any kind of combo deck because he can't rely on getting any particular piece back (except when you get insanely lucky getting back a torpor orb against roon, bwahaha).
I don't understand this line of thought at all. Like Oona, Tas just wins with infinite mana. If you activate his ability infinite times, you put your whole deck into your hand. He can recur the pieces better than Oona, and has access to another color. Why would a near-strict upgrade to one of the premier commanders be against comboing?
I don't understand this line of thought at all. Like Oona, Tas just wins with infinite mana. If you activate his ability infinite times, you put your whole deck into your hand. He can recur the pieces better than Oona, and has access to another color. Why would a near-strict upgrade to one of the premier commanders be against comboing?
The post I was responding to was about Oath of Druids. I don't see him being any good for oath of druids.
Oona wins with infinite colorless mana and a few colored mana. Tasigur needs colored and colorless in equal doses, which means a lot fewer infinite mana combos will win you the game - no basalt monolith + rings, no grim monolith + power artifact, etc. And Scion of the ur dragon wins with infinite mana and gives you access to all the colors.
As a combo general overall, I think Tasigur is bad. His ability is unlikely to give you your combo pieces, and it might end up putting them somewhere where it's difficult to get them back. If you just want to play combo bug with a commander for CA, play Damia. Damia can play EDH the same boring way you've always played it just fine. Tasigur is for the explorers.
Hey everyone, I figured I'd let you guys know about the other Tasigur thread, for the discussion of more competitive tactics including Doomsday and other win conditions. Link here.
Hey everyone, I figured I'd let you guys know about the other Tasigur thread, for the discussion of more competitive tactics including Doomsday and other win conditions. Link here.
This deck is plenty competitive. I'm sorry if it's not the same boring linear combo race constructed by everyone else who's clinically unable to think outside the box.
And I'm not sure where you're from, but where I'm from posting in someone else's thread to come over to your thread is rude as hell.
I took my Tasigur "fun police" (quite similar to your list) deck for it's first trial run last night and failed at politics from the get-go in a 3 player match. It quickly became apparent that I should have done more theorycrafting, as my manabase didn't included lands to push damage through, or anything to address the inevitable concern of decking myself. I stopped milling as much as was possible with 10 cards left after Tasigur and Loam. I drew the ghast with 6 cards left in my library and proceeded to extort 42 times, 10 of them during my final upkeep. My extort engine was constant mists, and I used the buyback on it 23-26 times.
I run 4 creatures: seedborn muse, prophet of kruphix, azusa, lost but seeking, and crypt ghast. You only run the muse effects, so haunted fengraf would be even more effective at recurring the 2 creatures that nobody will ever choose to give you. Admittedly, it is redundant with volrath's stronghold (which I wasn't running and need to find), but the redundancy in recursion may be worth the colorless land?
I am also curious about the effectiveness of head games. Any results from it?
Hey everyone, I figured I'd let you guys know about the other Tasigur thread, for the discussion of more competitive tactics including Doomsday and other win conditions. Link here.
Gotta agree with Dirk on this one. It's courtesy not to hijack another person's thread.
Treasure Cruise and Dig through Time are the only cards that I'm tempted by in that category, but I still think they're kind of clunky since, while the first delve is great, the second and third one get pretty awkward and eventually the spell just becomes uncastable. They're not bad options, but I don't think they're necessary. I'd rather save the Delve for Tasigur so he's reliably cheap.
Dig Through Time is 100% worth running. I was running Treasure Cruise as well originally but cut it out, Like you say the first delve is great but it becomes a worse and worse card as the game goes on. Dig was great every time, and often was the card my opponents wanted to give me the least because of its potential to find my win conditions.
I'll be playing some games tomorrow with my new deck list of Manlands and Equipment to win and see how it goes.
I have been thinking...how effective do you think something like zur's weirding or revelation might be?
Everyone knowing what is available could be interesting politics. The downside of showing your hand isn't too big a deal because they will know what you return anyways. Also it will seem more "fair" than telepathy since you are showing your hand too.
It could either keep them from going after you or make you a target...not sure, but I bet it would be fun.
Urborg I haven't found to be necessary, since Tasigur's ability makes black mana less valuable. I'd like it a lot more if it made things into islands. Ofc it's pretty low-impact since it takes a land slot and taps for colored mana, though, so there's not a strong reason to not run it. My main reasoning is that I don't think my version gets much out of it, and it makes enemy coffers a lot better.
There are quite a few solid options for late-game ramp...another one I left off was illusionist's bracers, which is pretty strong. Mostly I kept the deck light on those because, in my experience, once you kick things into high gear you become a target, and I don't like being a target until the endgame and I'm sure I can win. Same reason I don't feel the need to put any real wincons in the deck - at the beginning they paint a target on my head, and in the endgame they're just redundant. Seedborn/Prophet have both been absurdly strong and I think are likely to stay my favorite wincons. training grounds is less strong, but it also only costs 1 and can sometimes be played earlier without getting rushed, but I could see cutting it. Crypt ghast I think is unreliable enough (since it needs urborg) that I'm not too tempted - if anything, I'd run coffers, and I don't think that's reliable enough either (plus both engines only produce black, which isn't always useful). The extort is pretty funny, though, that's a solid story. Extort would be nice to fit in here, but I don't think there's any cards with it that I want to run, unfortunately. If only it was on a land or something.
Azusa is on the list for potential add. Exploration has been really strong, and although being a creature is generally a downside it does mean I can set up a slick engine with an intuition for lftl + tolaria west + azusa (using tolaria to grab VS and recurring azusa, and then using lftl + tolaria to grab the rest of my crucial lands). I think oracle of mul daya would make the cut first, but I have felt the need for more of these types of effects. They're much, much better for this kind of deck than single-shot ramp, and especially wiht lftl and crucible they get pretty ridiculously good.
besides recurring my crucial creatures, Volrath's Stronghold actually protects me from exactly the problem you faced - decking myself. It lets me throw a creature from my grave on top of my deck every turn, so I don't run out once I've decked. Fengraf doesn't do that, so I don't think it makes the cut. The colorless count for this deck is kind of high already, I think I need to pare it down.
Head games I've never actually resolved. Being a 5 mana sorcery makes it kind of tricky to use for this deck, I really wish it was an instant. The one time I tried to do it, the guy scooped in response. But I'll post here once it actually happens.
@cyberium_neo
thanks
@wonkstar
I think it's probably better if you're running more crucial combo pieces - hitting some random removal and counter isn't that impressive - but I do like that it's instant speed, so I might try it out at some point. My pile of stuff to try is pretty deep, though.
@Garridy
Zur's weirding seems brutal. You could pretty much lock everyone else out of anything relevant while Tasigur goes to town. Unlike chains, I think it might be a little too oppressive, though, I'd be nervous that people would gun for me pretty hard after resolving it. On the plus side, though, I could let them draw anything that's not hugely dangerous to my plan and let everything else through, though. Definitely an interesting and powerful card for Tasigur.
Revelation is hilarious, I like how you're thinking. I've experimented with just playing my own hand revealed, and it's worked ok but not great. I think I'd be more likely to play telepathy and just choose to reveal my hand until it's endgame time. But if you're playing Tasigur, I'd definitely be curious to hear how it turns out.
I've found, at least for me, that once I was running on an academy ruins engine with an empty library, the likelihood of being given back removal to keep my own engine online dropped sharply. Similarly, I was forced into some corners where I had to destroy my own crucible when I needed to dig a card out of my graveyard to respond well and I got back my sol ring. I realize that this can be overcome in part by using ruins in conjunction with volrath's stronghold, but what about taking the, as another player phrased it "life support", out of their hands?
To follow that line of thought, I'm adjusting my manabase to include phyrexia's core, and running the artifact lands (seat of the synod, vault of whispers, and tree of tales). This could also include high market and dryad arbor. By containing a sacrifice outlet and sacrifice targets to feed this engine in the manabase, your opponents can no longer force you to recur crucial pieces that are preventing you from being decked. These are also rather robust to disruption, as the sacrifice is in the cost, the mana cost is minimal, and all the land components are rather easily recur-able. What do you think?
Damnation. Best black bw. I didn't c it in ur list.
I also feel like u need a way to end the game quick enough, u can't always control the board indefinitely. And games that drag on forever are not fun for ur opponents. Control in general isn't fun to play against, don't make it more miserable than u have to. That being said u may need a way to refill ur library if ur games go on too long but that would need testing.
You should also probably play a real wincon.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Ponder and brainstorm are both kind of bad here because they make pretty weak targets for Tasigur's ability, so you'll be sure to end up stuck with them if you hit them in the late-game. Brainstorm is the only one of the bunch I'd consider, since you can dump lands from lftl and turn it into roughly a 5 mana draw 3, or at least a 5 mana draw 3 discard 2, as an instant, which isn't the worst. As far as reliably hitting lands, this deck goes for lftl very quickly and just uses that to guarantee land drops for the rest of the game typically.
Damnation is, at best, the third best black wipe behind o-stone and toxic deluge, and this deck also has access to other wipes that aren't (entirely) black. I'm not a huge fan of wipes for a deck like this in general, since pressing the "reset" button on the field means that your opponents don't have a reason to focus on each other anymore (which is kind of this deck's goal). Greatly oversimplifying, wipes are better for hard control, targeted removal is better for political control, because you want your opponents to be able to get a little out of hand so that they'll have reason to fight among themselves, while still holding key cards to stop them at a moment's notice if things get out of hand. That said, hard/political control balance is something you could tinker with, however I think the more you go hard control the less likely that Tasigur is your best choice for commander.
Generally my opponents don't have any problem just scooping when it's clear they can't get through my wall of control. I'm considering spitting image as a wincon, and possibly worm harvest, but besides that I really haven't seen any that I think work for this deck. If you've got other suggestions, go for it.
@razzliox
Not so much "not playing good cards" as "not playing good cards at inopportune times". Dropping Necro in the early game is much more likely to turn the game into an Xv1 earlier than this deck is ready to handle it, and this deck isn't really capable of handling early hate from multiple opponents. I could build a hard control deck that uses more wipes and CA so that it can handle multiple enemies better in the early game, but that's not really what tasigur is good at, I think you'd be better off with Damia or mimeo for that sort of thing. In the late game, when I go for the kill (usually signaled by playing seedborn or prophet) Necro would be fine, but so far I've never lost a game after going into endgame mode so I don't think I need the help, and it's dead (or worse than dead) early.
Strip mine locks are less threatening because, even if I have strip mine + crucible (which can happen early if I happen to draw the strip mine and draw or tutor for crucible), in a 4-man game it's not really terribly threatening. It's not until the endgame that they actually do anything. Sure, it's obnoxious THEN, but that's when I can deal with it, and both cards serve useful purposes at all stages of the game, whereas necro is basically unplayable for this deck until quite late.
Discard to exile isn't really very useful, but more importantly rarely happens because I usually grab reliquary tower with my lftl intuition package.
Political shenanigans are completely useless when playing against competent opponents if you make yourself the threat, making Tasigur a bad commander if you're planning to play early powerful cards. If you want a hard control commander, I'd go child of alara all the way. No politics, no tricks, no permanents. Tasigur offers something a little different, which is what makes him interesting.
I still don't think I need any kind of wincon. Thus far I've never needed one (unless you count seedborn/prophet, which is fair). I'd be curious to get suggestions, but considering how Tasigur works I don't think it's worth cluttering up early draws with endgame cards, and it's next to impossible to get them into my hand for the late-game (with exception for restrace, which is why it's considered).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It is refreshing to see a list that doesn't just fill the list with good cards because they are good. Deck builders too often start with 80 mandatory cards and fill in the rest with synergy. It is oftentimes much more effective to start with what supports your strategy and improve from there.
PS - who needs a "wincon" when your general has 4 power in deck filled to the brim with answers.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Anyways, good luck. You have me sold, so I will try him out too and maybe I will be able to help out later. Gonna build an EDH out of junk counters and removal and see how that goes. I'll even play it unsleeved!
Biggest all stars so far: Ashes to Ashes, Pernicious Deed
Edit: Other great things I didn't mention the first time:
Casting your general for B, consistently, feels excellent since you are able to have so much mana open afterwards.
Alchemist's Refuge is not that good in this build. Another version, though, might love it a lot.
As for replacements in the cards I'm playing, going to try out Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits. Both are instant speed, one helps dig deeper, the other is a replacement wincon for Villainous Wealth.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
So I got lucky and pulled a Tasigur in the prerelease and decided to sleeve up a deck with cards I had laying around for games on Sunday. My deck was pretty budget and not optimal but Tasigur is just a complete BEAST. Tasigur makes cards that would usually just be OK in EDH because of the single target, suddenly amazing when you cast them a few times in the game (in my case Reality Shift was the winner card).
Now a few things I will likely upgrade in my janky list after playing 6 games:
1) I needed some win cons. The OP uses Land Destruction and Crucible + Exploration to eventually take the lead which I like, but I think I would also throw in a Bribery and Treachery. Lethal Vapors Might also be good to put down once u have the board cleared and are swinging with Tasigur. I played with a Villainous Wealth but wasn't super impressed, might side it in for 1v1's tho.
2) I needed way more board wipes. I think I will get a Crux Of Fate, Damnation, and Toxic Deluge to deal with swarms of creatures. Despite all the removal I had I still couln't keep up with 3 other players dropping the goods.
3) Delving was great to thin my Graveyard but there was one game where my Exile pile got huge and I had almost decked myself. I think the deck needs at least 1 way to shuffle the graveyard, or tuck cards. The one that comes to mind for me is Bow of Nylea. The least relevant ability there is the +1/+1 counter but that still has the potential to make you commander kill in 1 less swing. I'm going to look for more options though.
4) Cards like Ponder and Preordain just felt bad. When in my yard they were always what I got back from Tasigur. I had to delve them away before I could start getting the removal I wanted.
Cards not in your list I found performed very well:
Void Snare - 1 mana bounce a permanent. Only downside is Sorcery but its a catch all for stuff that needs to go
Reality Shift - Exile is great and i would replace one of the Pongify effects with this. Not only does it get rid of a creature but potentially exiles a spell from the top of their library. It has a small chance of hitting a creature, but thats a risk i'm milling to take to remove a Avacyn.
Torrent Elemental - Great card to delve away, and late game lets you get through damage. Plus it made a great blocker. Might just be a win more card though. might look for a way to keep the creatures tapped though.
I had a blast playing this, and even with a lower card power I still managed to hold my own in a pretty competitive playgroup. Also turn 1 stifling a fetchland is always super fun.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
@Cyxics
Unsleeved with suboptimal cards might make the political aspect work better. For me, I can't run suboptimal cards if I have the best, though. Bit of a character flaw.
@Artaud
Mana drain and whatnot are totally unnecessary, I think if you put money into the deck the first place should be the manabase and intuition for the lftl/crucible package stuff.
Most of the cards you listed I think aren't necessary for the same reason other wincons aren't necessary. GSZ isn't equivalent to another muse/prophet because it can't be recurred with volrath's stronghold. Icy blast is just way too small of an impact.
@KissMyAssassin
The deck probably works fine with suboptimal removal. Personally I'm not big on ashes to ashes because of being sorcery speed, but the other removal seems fine. Although definitely 5 life every time adds up when tasigur keeps recurring it. Deed is definitely awesome, as is delve keeping tasigur cheap all game.
Bribery doesn't do what seedborn or prophet do. I just don't think it fits the deck. Treachery is better, it may end up with a slot although it's also likely to draw hate. Empty the pits seems like a trap to me, but feel free to try it, I like that it's an instant at least.
@wonkstar
Lethal vapors seems really bad. Best case someone just skips their turn, worst case they kill Tasigur and then play a bunch of dangerous artifacts/enchantments etc and you have to skip your own turn. Board-wipes wise, ideally at least one other person will help you recur the few that you have, I'd run more tutors instead. Bow of Nylea is unnecessary because volrath's stronghold and/or academy ruins can keep shoving stuff on top of the deck if we run out of cards (you can use removal on your own artifact/creature if necessary). As for point #4, yep, called it.
void snare is bad, I would run chain of vapor way before void snare. Reality shift has a good chance of going in (although the logic of getting rid of a spell off the top is flawed, exile for 2 is still a solid deal). Torrent Elemental I don't think is worth it, at least in my version there are few ways to exile him and he just doesn't do very much besides make tasigur unblockable, which I can already do with crappy lands. I did get 3 over the weekend though, ha.
Don't stifle a fetchland. That is a waste of a stifle (unless it's 1v1, in which case go nuts).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
More 3 player games, ugh, but at least they weren't hellbent on killing me out of the gate. Game 1 was Roon and Talrand. Roon got out to an early lead, but then I hit my torpor orb off Tas and let talrand pick, which shut down Roon considerably, but he was still drawing a lot of cards and playing a lot of creatures. I managed to not get my loam package going and struggled with lands for a long time, which was annoying. I teamed up with Talrand to kill Roon off, shortly after finally hitting my loam off entomb with burgeoning and exploration on the field and ramping quickly. I had arcane denial, mana drain, constant mists, and abrupt decay, which was aimed at his pretty ridiculous runechanter's pike, but I screwed up my mana tapping. He attacks, I abrupt decay, he misdirections, I arcane denial, he counterspells...and I can't pay the green to fog (or the mana drain) despite having 2 mana open. Damn. But it's my fault, not the deck. Next turn I would definitely have been able to start locking him out of the game with my fog for protection, and he had no more counterspells.
Game 2 Talrand switches for Phenax and I had to promise not to tutor for Torpor orb or Roon wouldn't play (lol). Phenax does precisely jack all game except help fuel Roon a bit, except for when he topdecks a tormod's crypt just as I'm about to ostone away the insane madness going on for Roon's board (he's drawn 30 cards or so, got recursion shenanigans with body double and reveillark...we're in deep deep trouble and it's only turn 6 or so, despite me removing his birthing pod). Unfortunately ostone and crypt don't work out quite perfectly, but we still exile most of his stuff and get rid of a lot of his ramp including mirari's wake that was making things insane. Roon starts to get out more crazy stuff, but I hit my torpor orb again off Tas and Phenax obliges. Unfortunately this time he has an austere command which kills Tas and my orb. I go to cast tas to get back orb, and Phenax promptly quits. Crap. I exile all nonlands except torpor orb from my grave and activate tas, but I hit a pongify. Could be worse. He has infinite combo palinchron + DEN in hand, but he can't play around the pongify so he recurs his austere command and angel of finalitys my grave. With just enough to activate Tas once more, I nail 2 lands off the top and get back orb. I untap, play crucible, wasteland his white away, and he scoops. Dude just did not like torpor orb.
Overall the deck performed admirably. I wasn't feeling great after last week, but this time things went fine. I got lots of great political picks, and lots of last-minute game saves with the right piece of control off his ability. Call me crazy but I think people are less intimidated when you have the actual card of your commander. I think having to use my phone as my commander last week made people paranoid. Biggest lesson from this week: be very careful about which lands you tap, especially with filters.
@inked
Not sure why he'd be any better than any other BUG commander. Call me an idealist, but I think Tasigur is actively fighting building any kind of combo deck because he can't rely on getting any particular piece back (except when you get insanely lucky getting back a torpor orb against roon, bwahaha).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
So here is my current Deck List, which I was quite happy with:
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Prognostic Sphinx
1x Prophet of Kruphix
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorcery (8)
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Bribery
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Crux of Fate
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mind Twist
Artifact (8)
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Lashwrithe
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Runechanter's Pike
1x Sol Ring
1x Torpor Orb
Instant (35)
1x Arcane Denial
1x Beast Within
1x Capsize
1x Constant Mists
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Dig Through Time
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Dismember
1x Domineering Will
1x Entomb
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Forbid
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Hinder
1x Into the Roil
1x Intuition
1x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Polymorphist's Jest
1x Pongify
1x Putrefy
1x Reality Shift
1x Realms Uncharted
1x Remand
1x Silence the Believers
1x Snuff Out
1x Stifle
1x Submerge
1x Sultai Charm
1x Tragic Slip
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Exploration
1x Training Grounds
Planeswalker (2)
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
Land (38)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Arcane Lighthouse
1x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Command Tower
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Faerie Conclave
2x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Inkmoth Nexus
5x Island
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Strip Mine
4x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Tolaria West
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
1x Yavimaya Hollow
Basically the end game goal is to get Runechanter's Pike or Lashwrithe equiped on to either Tasigur or one of my man lands (Inkmoth Nexus being the best option) and start knocking people out of the game.
I decided to include a few extra ways to get my win lands. Realms Uncharted & Intuition will basically grab what i need. I especially like Realms Uncharted because I suspect people will think it is just a ramp spell and be eager to give it back to me when i activate Tasigur.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is a win con all by herself. The +1 is great to keep threats down, the -1 can draw tons of cards. But that ultimate is a game ender if you can get there, which will all our removal and counter spells is not too far fetched.
I also threw in a few cards I think are powerful but have yet to play them like Polymorphist's Jest and Consuming Vapors. I'm interested to see how they do.
Manipulation to get you to the point faster
Ponder
Brainstorm
Preordain
Mirri's Guile
Sylvan Library
Think Twice
Sensei's Divining Top
Dig through Time
Treaure cruise
Necropotence - (Insane draw and exile the garbage)
increasing ambition
Logic Knot - (Eat Garbage from the Graveyard)
Fervent Denial - (If dumped can still counter from 'yard, if returned use again)
Forgotten Lore - (cheap Regrowth & interactive)
Scavenging Ooze - (Eat garbage from both yards)
Snapcaster Mage
BOMBS
Rakshasa Vizier - (Can take out opponents in 1 swing if set up, synergy with psychotaog, bojuka bog & relic of progenitus. Draw 3 cards and attack for 11 with treasure cruise)
Psychatog - (Same, another finisher)
Kederekt Leviathan - (Good sweeper, unearth if dumped)
Guile - (Shuffled if dumped, Good finisher since you have a lot of counterspells)
Dread - (Shuffled if dumped, Protects well, and hits hard)
Desertion - (Maybe catch someone's bomb, and ride it to victory)
Time Warp - (Because it's time warp)
Bribery - (Ride someone's bomb to victory)
Removing useless cards from the grave is almost totally unnecessary. Nearly every card in the deck is relevant at every point in the game.
The reason that's the case is because I'm not running any low-impact cards like mirri's guile or ponder or think twice. Setting up topdecks is only relevant if (1) you're trying to force your opponents to give you your wincon, which is really difficult to do with Tasigur to the point that you should be playing someone else if that's your goal, and that's part of why I love him, or (2) you're filling your deck with low-impact cards that work badly when you're paying to recur them with Tasigur - stuff like ponder and mirri's guile are great for 1, but horrendously bad for 5 - and you have to get rid of them before your opponents waste your time recurring them.
Treasure Cruise and Dig through Time are the only cards that I'm tempted by in that category, but I still think they're kind of clunky since, while the first delve is great, the second and third one get pretty awkward and eventually the spell just becomes uncastable. They're not bad options, but I don't think they're necessary. I'd rather save the Delve for Tasigur so he's reliably cheap.
Increasing ambition is probably a decent lynchpin for a combo-ier version of this deck, since it can't get stuck in the yard like other wincons can. It's one of the only flashback cards that's actually worth running. That said, it's expensive and sorcery speed, and I don't think anything in my deck is so critical that I'm willing to pay that much to get it on my own turn.
Fervent Denial, logic knot, and forgotten lore are all just really weak cards.
Most of the bombs you listed I don't see being worth it. Guile I like but I don't think it's reliable enough here. Psychatog would take exiling almost your entire deck to KO someone. Time warp I've considered for a combo win, but if your deck is in your graveyard and you're recurring enough of it to reliably get back the time warp, you kinda win regardless. And unless you're "going off" an extra turn isn't really that great here since the deck does most of its work on other peoples' turns.
I'm curious why you think I'm "werking [sic] backwards" or "having a difficult time"? This deck has been working quite well, and I like that it's very difficult to play. I think if your Tasigur deck ISN'T difficult to play, you're probably doing it wrong, and should just be running some more mundane commander like Damia, Sidisi, or Mimeo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't understand this line of thought at all. Like Oona, Tas just wins with infinite mana. If you activate his ability infinite times, you put your whole deck into your hand. He can recur the pieces better than Oona, and has access to another color. Why would a near-strict upgrade to one of the premier commanders be against comboing?
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
Oona wins with infinite colorless mana and a few colored mana. Tasigur needs colored and colorless in equal doses, which means a lot fewer infinite mana combos will win you the game - no basalt monolith + rings, no grim monolith + power artifact, etc. And Scion of the ur dragon wins with infinite mana and gives you access to all the colors.
As a combo general overall, I think Tasigur is bad. His ability is unlikely to give you your combo pieces, and it might end up putting them somewhere where it's difficult to get them back. If you just want to play combo bug with a commander for CA, play Damia. Damia can play EDH the same boring way you've always played it just fine. Tasigur is for the explorers.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
And I'm not sure where you're from, but where I'm from posting in someone else's thread to come over to your thread is rude as hell.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I took my Tasigur "fun police" (quite similar to your list) deck for it's first trial run last night and failed at politics from the get-go in a 3 player match. It quickly became apparent that I should have done more theorycrafting, as my manabase didn't included lands to push damage through, or anything to address the inevitable concern of decking myself. I stopped milling as much as was possible with 10 cards left after Tasigur and Loam. I drew the ghast with 6 cards left in my library and proceeded to extort 42 times, 10 of them during my final upkeep. My extort engine was constant mists, and I used the buyback on it 23-26 times.
I run 4 creatures: seedborn muse, prophet of kruphix, azusa, lost but seeking, and crypt ghast. You only run the muse effects, so haunted fengraf would be even more effective at recurring the 2 creatures that nobody will ever choose to give you. Admittedly, it is redundant with volrath's stronghold (which I wasn't running and need to find), but the redundancy in recursion may be worth the colorless land?
I am also curious about the effectiveness of head games. Any results from it?
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Gotta agree with Dirk on this one. It's courtesy not to hijack another person's thread.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Dig Through Time is 100% worth running. I was running Treasure Cruise as well originally but cut it out, Like you say the first delve is great but it becomes a worse and worse card as the game goes on. Dig was great every time, and often was the card my opponents wanted to give me the least because of its potential to find my win conditions.
I'll be playing some games tomorrow with my new deck list of Manlands and Equipment to win and see how it goes.
Everyone knowing what is available could be interesting politics. The downside of showing your hand isn't too big a deal because they will know what you return anyways. Also it will seem more "fair" than telepathy since you are showing your hand too.
It could either keep them from going after you or make you a target...not sure, but I bet it would be fun.
Urborg I haven't found to be necessary, since Tasigur's ability makes black mana less valuable. I'd like it a lot more if it made things into islands. Ofc it's pretty low-impact since it takes a land slot and taps for colored mana, though, so there's not a strong reason to not run it. My main reasoning is that I don't think my version gets much out of it, and it makes enemy coffers a lot better.
There are quite a few solid options for late-game ramp...another one I left off was illusionist's bracers, which is pretty strong. Mostly I kept the deck light on those because, in my experience, once you kick things into high gear you become a target, and I don't like being a target until the endgame and I'm sure I can win. Same reason I don't feel the need to put any real wincons in the deck - at the beginning they paint a target on my head, and in the endgame they're just redundant. Seedborn/Prophet have both been absurdly strong and I think are likely to stay my favorite wincons. training grounds is less strong, but it also only costs 1 and can sometimes be played earlier without getting rushed, but I could see cutting it. Crypt ghast I think is unreliable enough (since it needs urborg) that I'm not too tempted - if anything, I'd run coffers, and I don't think that's reliable enough either (plus both engines only produce black, which isn't always useful). The extort is pretty funny, though, that's a solid story. Extort would be nice to fit in here, but I don't think there's any cards with it that I want to run, unfortunately. If only it was on a land or something.
Azusa is on the list for potential add. Exploration has been really strong, and although being a creature is generally a downside it does mean I can set up a slick engine with an intuition for lftl + tolaria west + azusa (using tolaria to grab VS and recurring azusa, and then using lftl + tolaria to grab the rest of my crucial lands). I think oracle of mul daya would make the cut first, but I have felt the need for more of these types of effects. They're much, much better for this kind of deck than single-shot ramp, and especially wiht lftl and crucible they get pretty ridiculously good.
besides recurring my crucial creatures, Volrath's Stronghold actually protects me from exactly the problem you faced - decking myself. It lets me throw a creature from my grave on top of my deck every turn, so I don't run out once I've decked. Fengraf doesn't do that, so I don't think it makes the cut. The colorless count for this deck is kind of high already, I think I need to pare it down.
Head games I've never actually resolved. Being a 5 mana sorcery makes it kind of tricky to use for this deck, I really wish it was an instant. The one time I tried to do it, the guy scooped in response. But I'll post here once it actually happens.
@cyberium_neo
thanks
@wonkstar
I think it's probably better if you're running more crucial combo pieces - hitting some random removal and counter isn't that impressive - but I do like that it's instant speed, so I might try it out at some point. My pile of stuff to try is pretty deep, though.
@Garridy
Zur's weirding seems brutal. You could pretty much lock everyone else out of anything relevant while Tasigur goes to town. Unlike chains, I think it might be a little too oppressive, though, I'd be nervous that people would gun for me pretty hard after resolving it. On the plus side, though, I could let them draw anything that's not hugely dangerous to my plan and let everything else through, though. Definitely an interesting and powerful card for Tasigur.
Revelation is hilarious, I like how you're thinking. I've experimented with just playing my own hand revealed, and it's worked ok but not great. I think I'd be more likely to play telepathy and just choose to reveal my hand until it's endgame time. But if you're playing Tasigur, I'd definitely be curious to hear how it turns out.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
To follow that line of thought, I'm adjusting my manabase to include phyrexia's core, and running the artifact lands (seat of the synod, vault of whispers, and tree of tales). This could also include high market and dryad arbor. By containing a sacrifice outlet and sacrifice targets to feed this engine in the manabase, your opponents can no longer force you to recur crucial pieces that are preventing you from being decked. These are also rather robust to disruption, as the sacrifice is in the cost, the mana cost is minimal, and all the land components are rather easily recur-able. What do you think?
I'll get my list posted soon for your review.
EDIT: my list is now posted here
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat