If the meta is heavy with lifegain decks possibly. Apart from that i would not deem it worth the cost atm.
Magic Origins spoilers that might be relevant to this deck: Demonic Pact: The card is just so flavorful, that i can't help but want to put it in. On the plus side, the deck has access to lots of sacrifice permanent effects, so it's unlikely that we'll ever lose to it. Kothoped, Soul Hoarder: Just seems like a solid demon, functionally and thematically with the rest of the deck. Dark Petition: Not too sure about this yet. On one hand it costs 5 mana to cast which is pretty costly. On the other it refunds some amount of mana which can basically mean searching and casting a free 3cmc spell. It also becomes a mana generator off a Hellcarver activation which could be something to consider. I'll have to take more time to mull this over. Any thoughts?
I was definitely planning on adding demonic pact and dark petition. Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, seemed a bit risky, its an instant loss if a player decides to clear the board while he's out. Not that protecting yourself is really this deck's strategy, but this card makes you especially vulnerable, especially since this deck requires risk and recklessness. That's just my opinion, though
I'm currently playtesting a version of this deck, but while my creature base is quite similar, I'm opting for a sneak attack package instead of extra turn effects. Does anyone have any experience playing such a package? What are your thoughts on it. A few other changes I made were corpse dance for shallow grave (I had one laying around the buyback can be surprisingly relevant in my playgroup) and I'm also thinking of adding in cauldron dance. I am curious if kuro, pitlord is worth is since I do happen to have one laying around, it adds devotion almost as well as obliterator (thought not quite the same crazy sacrifice shenanigans) and I'm also packing a reanimation/sacrifice subtheme with the repay in kind.
I can't believe I missed this deck list before, but thanks to threestrikes I've seen it now.
Here are a few suggestions that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Boseiju, Who Shelters All has quickly become a card I automatically include in every commander deck I build. The Comes in to play tapped aspect of it can be painful, but making sure that blue players can't counter my spells has proven to be invaluable. Another lesser known card that can be backbreaking when cast off of Boseiju is Head Games, especially if you do everyone a favor at your table and gift the control player with a hand full of land.
I built my own version of this deck, heavily based on the OP build. I have to say, I am having a blast with it. I'm currently testing a version using sneak attack in place of a haste enabler (I have one, why not?). I'm currently looking to expand upon that a bit and add in a cauldron dance. I think it would be a useful addition. Hellcarver demon has proven to be a beating, too. Is anyone else playing a version of this?
Some basic info to do with the cuts and additions this time round. Some issues i've had:
1) Too many sorceries/instants
2) Too few creatures to pair with the sac effects/reanimations
3) Not enough to do during earlier turns (Land, go, land go unless i have a combo)
4) Not enough sustain for longer games
To fix the issues i'm facing i've decided to tone down on the spells and increase the creature count. To combat point 3, i'm adding additional mana rocks to boost me to the mid mana level earlier. To address sustain, i'm including Gary.
Changelog:
- Sensei's Divining Top: Has not been all that great with the deck, possibly due to a lack of shuffle effects.
- Rakdos Riteknife: I love the Rakdos Riteknife, but the deck simply does not have enough creatures to support the card. I hope to be able to add this back in the future.
- Bitter Ordeal: The combo is too convoluted to warrant a card slot specifically for this.
- Culling the Weak: Once again, the deck has too few creatures to support sacrificing one for this little mana.
- Temporal Extortion: Excellent card. Can't believe how many times my opponent has decided to lose 20 life just because they didn't want me to take an extra turn. That said, the card is pure "fluff" and cutting it probably wouldn't result in any impact to how the deck functions.
- Rakdos's Return: Trying to cut down on spells since the deck runs way too many and i figure this can be cut.
- Heartless Summoning: Decided to replace Heartless Summoning with conventional mana rocks instead.
+ Mana Crypt: Speeding up the deck. Finally caved in and got myself a copy of Mana Crypt for this deck as well.
+ Rakdos Signet: Additional mana rock, especially since the curve is pretty high and the deck dosen't do all that much without some amount of mana.
+ Talisman of Indulgence: Additional mana rock, especially since the curve is pretty high and the deck dosen't do all that much without some amount of mana.
+ Wheel of Fortune: I was looking for an additional discard outlet, and wheel of fortune is just too good at filling multiple roles so i couldnt avoid putting it in.
+ Ob Nixilis, Unshackled: An additional demon to buff the creature count in the deck. Ob Nixilis helps to shut down heavy tutor decks (like my cursed Kresh)
+ Korthophed, Soul Hoarder: Just testing Korthophed out to see how suicidal it is. Love the theme.
+ Gray Merchant of Asphodel: Strictly a power level inclusion to the deck. The deck is rather heavy on the life loss theme, and basically kills itself in longer attrition based games that happen more often in multiplayer. Gary simply counters that effect, and damn well at it. I didn't want to put this card in originally but it just works too well at its function.
I was definitely planning on adding demonic pact and dark petition. Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, seemed a bit risky, its an instant loss if a player decides to clear the board while he's out. Not that protecting yourself is really this deck's strategy, but this card makes you especially vulnerable, especially since this deck requires risk and recklessness. That's just my opinion, though
I've been considering Demonic Pact for a long time. In the end i decided that this deck simply isn't able to abuse it enough. All we can do is sac it at the end of its lifespan unlike other decks that may be able to recur it or bounce it etc.
Dark Petition i still intend to test out in the future, just can't find the space for it yet.
Korthophed i'm still going to test out just to see how crazy it gets. I need additional creatures in the deck atm.
I'm currently playtesting a version of this deck, but while my creature base is quite similar, I'm opting for a sneak attack package instead of extra turn effects. Does anyone have any experience playing such a package? What are your thoughts on it. A few other changes I made were corpse dance for shallow grave (I had one laying around the buyback can be surprisingly relevant in my playgroup) and I'm also thinking of adding in cauldron dance. I am curious if kuro, pitlord is worth is since I do happen to have one laying around, it adds devotion almost as well as obliterator (thought not quite the same crazy sacrifice shenanigans) and I'm also packing a reanimation/sacrifice subtheme with the repay in kind.
Sneak Attack is excellent. It serves dual function as "accel" and haste enabler. It will probably find it's way into the deck eventually. I'm basically just testing out alternative solutions to see how effective they are. The likely card it will replace is Anger.
In case you were wondering, a full foil (to the applicable cards) deck of this list will set you back $1244.32 total. Damn you, Lilliana.
edit: clarity
Haha, damn that hurts. I'd be more likely to get the deck in Spanish than to make it foil due to all the old cards in the deck. Somehow strikes me as appropriate for Rakdos to be el loco espanol hombre.
I can't believe I missed this deck list before, but thanks to threestrikes I've seen it now.
Here are a few suggestions that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Boseiju, Who Shelters All has quickly become a card I automatically include in every commander deck I build. The Comes in to play tapped aspect of it can be painful, but making sure that blue players can't counter my spells has proven to be invaluable. Another lesser known card that can be backbreaking when cast off of Boseiju is Head Games, especially if you do everyone a favor at your table and gift the control player with a hand full of land.
Boseiju is a good card for most decks. It is heavily influenced by the meta. I'd put it in if your area is heavy into the control decks. Otherwise i'd try to limit the number of cipt lands.
I built my own version of this deck, heavily based on the OP build. I have to say, I am having a blast with it. I'm currently testing a version using sneak attack in place of a haste enabler (I have one, why not?). I'm currently looking to expand upon that a bit and add in a cauldron dance. I think it would be a useful addition. Hellcarver demon has proven to be a beating, too. Is anyone else playing a version of this?
Theres not much to say about Sneak Attack, it's pretty much just plug and play. The card is extremely powerful and has incredible synergy with the creatures in the deck. Pretty sure your going to have a great time with it. Let me know what your thoughts are on cauldron dance. I've considered the card multiple times, but can't find a spot to test it out personally atm. I'm already incredibly saturated on instants and sorceries atm.
I'll update the OP some other time this week. Running short of time atm.
Honestly, I started with your initial list, and I have to agree with some of the stuff you've changed. For something supposed to be demonically fast and powerful, the fast mana I do run isn't quite doing it. I need something additional to do early. I spend far too much time sitting there and *****ting with little better to do until I hit critical mass of mana. I would include a mana crypt if I had one, but I don't, and while I do own some stuff like mox diamond/chrome mox, the card disadvantage isn't reason enough to run them. I think I will likewise try the rakdos signet/talisman of indulgence approach. I have tried cabal coffers, and the card is pure garbage in here. On the other hand, lake of the dead has been pure gold. Unlike some of your own manabase, I'm packing original duals/fetches, so I'll be including a copy of each of my swamp fetchers (including a rocky tar pit since I am rather fond of the mirage fetches) since they are pretty critical to the deck and a bunch of folks in my playgroup like playing incidental grave hate rather than mass grave hate, so it's nice to have fodder for that.
I think I'll keep anger in for now. He's pretty good as an additional haste enabler, even though I already have sneak attack in. I think the so called tango land will probably also see play, as I am needing as many mountain-swamps as possible. It is worth noting I am not running a fervor or mass hysteria variant. Mass hysteria is just too risky in my playgroup as it is very creature combo oriented and animar or ulasht would just go nuts with this on board.
I think grey merchant of asphodel could be interesting. Let me know if you get it off with a lich on board. I want to see what happens when a rakdos deck near decks itself. I have been considering it myself.
Final fortune has proven to be surprisingly solid, and every one in my playgroup thinks I'm plumb crazy now (I'm usually seen as the most conservative player in the group...this deck has changed their minds on just how true that is). Temporal extortion is just a bit too much mana, sadly. I am really enjoying the extra combat steps, and may include one more. I'm not sure on relentless assault or fury of the horde. I am considering running helm of awakening since as far as I know, there isn't a red/black combined medallion, though I guess I could run the medallion + apprentices as cost reducers. I have found all too many situations where a single cost reducer would have given me the game a turn sooner, even if it would help my opponent some. for this same reason, rakdos lord of riots stays in though his casting condition has been prohibitive a time or two. He's easy as all hell to reanimate and if I get one combat in with him, the game usually goes to me for the reduction effect.
Just had a couple of games today to test out the changes i made to Rakdos. 6 games total against 2 different decks. Final Score was 5-1
First 3 were relatively simple Rakdos commander damage wins.
Game 4 (First game against Kresh)
T5 Opponent has Sneak Attack. Uses it's ability to put Liege of the Temple into play and swings. Converting 4 Lands into Elementals.
T5 for me. I have 4 lands on the field and a land in hand. My Ogre Shaman triggers during upkeep. The only 5 mana demon that might make a difference is Master of Cruelties but it isn't going to be enough. The only 6 mana creatures that might make a difference are Hellcarver Demon and Malfegor. I decide to test my luck as this deck is supposed to and pick Malfegor. I shuffle my deck and my opponent cuts it as i tell him that hes going to help me win. I draw a card...Demonic Consultation! **** yea. Name Mana Crypt, exile amount 70+ cards from my library till i find it, play it and Malfegor to wipe out my opponent's board. I still ended up losing that game, but god was it satisfying.
Game 5
T2 Mass Hysteria
T3 Dark Ritual -> Master of Cruelties. Swing, put opponent at 1.
T4 I played Liliana to take out one of his creatures. He still has his commander left. He pumps it up to 20/20 and swings at me. I comment that my Master of Cruelties has first strike and deathtouch, he retracts his mistake and Beasts Withins my MoC before swining. I block with the token.
T5 I draw into a Forbidden Ritual! I count the board state. I have 6 permanents on the field. He has 5. I have 2 other cards in hand. He has 2 as well! DIE TO MY USELESS FORBIDDEN RITUAL YOU FOOOOOL!
First time i've won with the card, it was absolutely hilarious.
Game 6
The last game i had a classic Lake of the Dead-> Hellcarver -> Doomsday game. Decided to go for a combat damage wincon and pulled out Savage Beating, World at War, Lord of the Void, Abhorrent Overlord and It that Betrays.
Resulting Damage from that turn ended up being 168 Damage. Good times.
Updated OP to reflect changes. Something i forgot to post was that i switched Temple of Malice out for Smoldering Marsh. I'm testing out it's condition to see if it would work smoothly nad i like the fact that it is considered a Swamp/Mountain to help activate the necessary cards like Lake of the Dead, Anger and Cabal Coffers.
Another fun interaction i experienced today that i forgot to mention was Forbidden Ritual and Wheel of Fortune. I had my opponent on tilt by casting it early on. He wasn't willing to lose any cards in hand and took 8 damage from the Forbidden Ritual before i followed through with the Wheel of Fortune to dump his hand anyway and refill mine.
Honestly, I started with your initial list, and I have to agree with some of the stuff you've changed. For something supposed to be demonically fast and powerful, the fast mana I do run isn't quite doing it. I need something additional to do early. I spend far too much time sitting there and *****ting with little better to do until I hit critical mass of mana. I would include a mana crypt if I had one, but I don't, and while I do own some stuff like mox diamond/chrome mox, the card disadvantage isn't reason enough to run them. I think I will likewise try the rakdos signet/talisman of indulgence approach. I have tried cabal coffers, and the card is pure garbage in here. On the other hand, lake of the dead has been pure gold. Unlike some of your own manabase, I'm packing original duals/fetches, so I'll be including a copy of each of my swamp fetchers (including a rocky tar pit since I am rather fond of the mirage fetches) since they are pretty critical to the deck and a bunch of folks in my playgroup like playing incidental grave hate rather than mass grave hate, so it's nice to have fodder for that.
I think I'll keep anger in for now. He's pretty good as an additional haste enabler, even though I already have sneak attack in. I think the so called tango land will probably also see play, as I am needing as many mountain-swamps as possible. It is worth noting I am not running a fervor or mass hysteria variant. Mass hysteria is just too risky in my playgroup as it is very creature combo oriented and animar or ulasht would just go nuts with this on board.
I think grey merchant of asphodel could be interesting. Let me know if you get it off with a lich on board. I want to see what happens when a rakdos deck near decks itself. I have been considering it myself.
Final fortune has proven to be surprisingly solid, and every one in my playgroup thinks I'm plumb crazy now (I'm usually seen as the most conservative player in the group...this deck has changed their minds on just how true that is). Temporal extortion is just a bit too much mana, sadly. I am really enjoying the extra combat steps, and may include one more. I'm not sure on relentless assault or fury of the horde. I am considering running helm of awakening since as far as I know, there isn't a red/black combined medallion, though I guess I could run the medallion + apprentices as cost reducers. I have found all too many situations where a single cost reducer would have given me the game a turn sooner, even if it would help my opponent some. for this same reason, rakdos lord of riots stays in though his casting condition has been prohibitive a time or two. He's easy as all hell to reanimate and if I get one combat in with him, the game usually goes to me for the reduction effect.
I still need to test out Cabal Coffers more before i can conclude on whether it belongs in the deck or not. The build is mostly black with a splash of red which has allowed Lake of the Dead and Nykthos to really shine. Even so, more often than not, i find that Anger is easy to activate as well, and usually for free thanks to a loot effect. The last card in the series to test is Cabal Coffers. However i've only gotten the card out twice throughout all my games. The first one was paired with Urborg, so i couldn't use it to judge the card. The 2nd one, was thrown away to a Faithless Looting on T1, so i wasn't able to test it there either.
Mass Hysteria has worked out great for me so far. It's main plus point would be it's super cheap casting cost and the fact that it helps put other players on tilt as well. One of the main aims i have with the deck is to cause the other players at the table to no longer be able to differentiate between a good play and a bad play, and mass hysteria lives up to its name pretty well. I can see how your meta may prevent you from abusing it well though.
With regards to Extra combat phase effects, i'm pretty happy with sticking to 2. World at War is just solid all round because it activates twice and thus pairs incredibly well with Final Fortune. Savage Beating is also great since it gives both Double Strike and an extra combat phase.
I absolutely love this deck! I'm currently playing it as my main commander deck and am still in the process of tweaking it here and there. I was wondering though, why Demonic Consultation over Tainted Pact? You get the same effect for one more mana without risking an auto-loss. Granted, Demonic Consultation has yet to fail me but I'm considering Tainted Pact myself and was curious to hear your thoughts.
Other cards I've managed to squeeze into the list:
I find myself looking for combos and dropping cards into the GY more often than not. Cards like Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mizzix's Mastery allow me to reuse our powerful filtering and reanimation spells. Raven's Crime is here to dump a Hellcarver or other choice demons in a pinch. It's awfully useful when we want to Reanimate or Shallow Grave rush. It can also be played from the grave, which is a big plus considering wheel effects, Malfegor, Sire of Insanity, Hellcarver, etc.
Pitlord is also a nice target for wiping out opposing board states, requires no mana to activate, and can be used in response. Good devotion on him too.
I, too, have been using recoup since I don't have past in flames or yawg win. I have likewise been using pitlord, and while I have drawn him a number of times, he's never once hit the battlefield. I am not playing any wheels, though I could. One of the best ways this deck plays out is suicide control, where I nuke everyone's hand early on with a sire of insanity.
Things I added: r/b talisman, rakdos signet, helm of awakening. things I removed? necropotence, sneak attack, culling the weak, and a few other things.
Necropotence has proven to be a liability in this deck. I almost always draw it, and regret it. the discard to exile clause has often been very relevant, and the more important fact is that I don't get those cards until my end step, where I would have had the game win if they had just been in my hand that turn. I replaced it skeletal scrying and haven't looked back. Sneak attack just wasn't useful, since I could usually just puke up a demon with a ritual, assuming I drew one. Admittedly, my deck has a long way to go before I consider it anything like complete, but damn it's fun!
Demonic consultation has been instrumental in some key wins, but this deck rather draws the hate after some of my early game shenanigans. I mean, I remember a game recently where I started with no early mana, a hand full of beaters and lands, drew more lands and beaters, and eventually a sol ring. There were three other tribal decks at the table (elves/allies/goblinzombies), so my turn 4 play was to drop a malfegor and make them sac their boards. I get in a couple of swings, draw a couple more lands, ,get malfegor+ my sol ring+2 lands nuked as retaliation, and then on turn 5 I draw demonic consultation and sit there wondering what I am going to do with it. I pass then turn with mana up and a land in my hand with an evil idea. I wait until the player to my lefts end step, and then demonic consultation for living death. I exile every combo win in the deck, but I get it. I then cast it on my turn with 2 lands in hand (of course, that's what I drew) reanimate my entire board, including malfegor, pitch my lands, watch them sacrifice their recurred boards while having nothing but a couple of allies and gombies on the battlefield, and I have an airforce with damage pointing upwards of 50+ (9 tokens from devotion harpy demon, xathrid demon, malfegor, + more) it was rather evil and I got the concession as no one has answers to that much flying pain before I wipe them out. I love this deck!
I love this deck too. It allows for some crazy plays. I agree about Demonic Consultation. Its the definition of an all-in card. Any particular reason for running Xathrid Demon? Mind sharing your list?
I don't actually remember half of the list and I'm too lazy to drag it out for now. I'll eventually share it, though. It's pretty close to silenacio's in the OP, but I've been tweaking it to fit my own needs, of course. Xathrid demon..happened to be on hand when I was throwing it in. As a loan beater, it's pretty bad. As a reanimated target of multiple, it can be rather nasty. I usually discard it, and then reanimate it with corpse dance or similar, and often as not, it gets sacrificed out for something else. It has uses when I'm beating down with cards like abyssal persecutor and desecration demon. Desecration demon mostly gets very large and very very tapped. As a demonic beater, it's terrible. AS something that sits there and eventually get sacrificed, it's hilarious. The fact that it hits early is the only reason I still play it.
Hmm now that I think about it, Xathrid Demon is actually OK here. About Desecration Demon, I swapped it out in my version. I do, however, mostly play in 4-person pods so likewise DD usually gets tapped and does very little else. I run Kuro, Pitlord instead since he can immediately impact the board with his special ability which makes him a fine target for temporary reanimation effects like Shallow Grave and Whip of Erebos.
I completely agree with you on Necropotence for the exact same reasons. I've replaced it with Necrologia. Sure I'm still only drawing cards during the discard phase but I can pay any amount of life and still dump relevant reanimate targets into the yard without having to exile anything else. I'm also running Moonlight Bargain which is just stellar in digging for things that I need. I'm currently considering cutting Pox for something like Mindslicer or Cabal Conditioning. While Pox is great with something like It That Betrays, I found that it didn't quite do enough to swing the game in my favor. More often than not, it just pissed off the table which causes everyone to swing at me with the creatures they have left. And they always have creatures left.
I also don't know if Mizzix's Mastery is better than Past in Flames in here. Mastery can be disgusting off of a Hellcarver but Past on Flames might be an all around better card in this deck since it can be used to chain our rituals. Thoughts?
What do you think of Ob nixilis of the Black Oath? It spews demon, and provides a nice sac effect at ultimate for your demons (which a few of them has drawbacks).
I wanna say that Ob Nixilis of the black oath is probably too slow and doesn't generate enough, though that is pure speculation. in my experience, he usually ends up being an overcosted way to end up with a single 5/5. ive never gotten him to reach the ultimate either, so maybe other people have had better luck with him.
Alright, first off i'd like to apologize for my long absence from the thread. Let's get started with answering some posts from up to half a year ago =x
I absolutely love this deck! I'm currently playing it as my main commander deck and am still in the process of tweaking it here and there. I was wondering though, why Demonic Consultation over Tainted Pact? You get the same effect for one more mana without risking an auto-loss. Granted, Demonic Consultation has yet to fail me but I'm considering Tainted Pact myself and was curious to hear your thoughts.
Other cards I've managed to squeeze into the list:
I find myself looking for combos and dropping cards into the GY more often than not. Cards like Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mizzix's Mastery allow me to reuse our powerful filtering and reanimation spells. Raven's Crime is here to dump a Hellcarver or other choice demons in a pinch. It's awfully useful when we want to Reanimate or Shallow Grave rush. It can also be played from the grave, which is a big plus considering wheel effects, Malfegor, Sire of Insanity, Hellcarver, etc.
Pitlord is also a nice target for wiping out opposing board states, requires no mana to activate, and can be used in response. Good devotion on him too.
Okie, the reason for running Demonic Consultation over Tainted is mainly because Tainted gets stopped by revealing 2 swamps etc. When we play Consultation we are usually looking for that one specific card that will save the game/secure the win. The fact that it costs 1 mana is also pretty awesome. If your list has almost no basic lands, then tainted pack could make a solid addition to the tutor package in my opinion.
I agree with many of the cards that you've added into your decklist. The changelog for my deck will be found below.
I, too, have been using recoup since I don't have past in flames or yawg win. I have likewise been using pitlord, and while I have drawn him a number of times, he's never once hit the battlefield. I am not playing any wheels, though I could. One of the best ways this deck plays out is suicide control, where I nuke everyone's hand early on with a sire of insanity.
Things I added: r/b talisman, rakdos signet, helm of awakening. things I removed? necropotence, sneak attack, culling the weak, and a few other things.
Necropotence has proven to be a liability in this deck. I almost always draw it, and regret it. the discard to exile clause has often been very relevant, and the more important fact is that I don't get those cards until my end step, where I would have had the game win if they had just been in my hand that turn. I replaced it skeletal scrying and haven't looked back. Sneak attack just wasn't useful, since I could usually just puke up a demon with a ritual, assuming I drew one. Admittedly, my deck has a long way to go before I consider it anything like complete, but damn it's fun!
Demonic consultation has been instrumental in some key wins, but this deck rather draws the hate after some of my early game shenanigans. I mean, I remember a game recently where I started with no early mana, a hand full of beaters and lands, drew more lands and beaters, and eventually a sol ring. There were three other tribal decks at the table (elves/allies/goblinzombies), so my turn 4 play was to drop a malfegor and make them sac their boards. I get in a couple of swings, draw a couple more lands, ,get malfegor+ my sol ring+2 lands nuked as retaliation, and then on turn 5 I draw demonic consultation and sit there wondering what I am going to do with it. I pass then turn with mana up and a land in my hand with an evil idea. I wait until the player to my lefts end step, and then demonic consultation for living death. I exile every combo win in the deck, but I get it. I then cast it on my turn with 2 lands in hand (of course, that's what I drew) reanimate my entire board, including malfegor, pitch my lands, watch them sacrifice their recurred boards while having nothing but a couple of allies and gombies on the battlefield, and I have an airforce with damage pointing upwards of 50+ (9 tokens from devotion harpy demon, xathrid demon, malfegor, + more) it was rather evil and I got the concession as no one has answers to that much flying pain before I wipe them out. I love this deck!
Excellent point on Necropotence. It was originally put in to stop the deck from decking itself in cases of Doomsday etc, and has not been living up to expectations. The nonbo with the rest of the deck is a major turn off as well. I am cutting it from the deck as well. On to Sneak Attack. You mention that it didn't feel too useful since you could Ritual a creature into play instead. Did you take into account the utility of Sneak Attack to provide your creature haste? many of the demons in the deck have a pretty big impact even if they only stick around for a single turn. Personally i also love the fact that it sends out creatures to the yard at eot rather than exile. Makes a pretty big difference for the deck since it plays quite a few reanimation effects.
I don't actually remember half of the list and I'm too lazy to drag it out for now. I'll eventually share it, though. It's pretty close to silenacio's in the OP, but I've been tweaking it to fit my own needs, of course. Xathrid demon..happened to be on hand when I was throwing it in. As a loan beater, it's pretty bad. As a reanimated target of multiple, it can be rather nasty. I usually discard it, and then reanimate it with corpse dance or similar, and often as not, it gets sacrificed out for something else. It has uses when I'm beating down with cards like abyssal persecutor and desecration demon. Desecration demon mostly gets very large and very very tapped. As a demonic beater, it's terrible. AS something that sits there and eventually get sacrificed, it's hilarious. The fact that it hits early is the only reason I still play it.
Hmm now that I think about it, Xathrid Demon is actually OK here. About Desecration Demon, I swapped it out in my version. I do, however, mostly play in 4-person pods so likewise DD usually gets tapped and does very little else. I run Kuro, Pitlord instead since he can immediately impact the board with his special ability which makes him a fine target for temporary reanimation effects like Shallow Grave and Whip of Erebos.
I completely agree with you on Necropotence for the exact same reasons. I've replaced it with Necrologia. Sure I'm still only drawing cards during the discard phase but I can pay any amount of life and still dump relevant reanimate targets into the yard without having to exile anything else. I'm also running Moonlight Bargain which is just stellar in digging for things that I need. I'm currently considering cutting Pox for something like Mindslicer or Cabal Conditioning. While Pox is great with something like It That Betrays, I found that it didn't quite do enough to swing the game in my favor. More often than not, it just pissed off the table which causes everyone to swing at me with the creatures they have left. And they always have creatures left.
I'd suggest that Desecration Demon is doing it's intended effect by staying tapped. Psychologically, most players arent willing to spend removal on Desecration demon when they can keep it from attacking them. Yet, each time they sac something to it, they are not only causing card disadvantage for themselves, but also creating a bigger threat that they would still eventually have to deal with. Removing about 3 or 4 creatures over the course of a game for 4 mana is nothing to sneeze at in my opinion.
I also don't know if Mizzix's Mastery is better than Past in Flames in here. Mastery can be disgusting off of a Hellcarver but Past on Flames might be an all around better card in this deck since it can be used to chain our rituals. Thoughts?
Mizzix's Mastery is a much more explosive play, which is the type of effect i prefer personally. I'm going to give it a try as well to see how well it performs.
What do you think of Ob nixilis of the Black Oath? It spews demon, and provides a nice sac effect at ultimate for your demons (which a few of them has drawbacks).
I wanna say that Ob Nixilis of the black oath is probably too slow and doesn't generate enough, though that is pure speculation. in my experience, he usually ends up being an overcosted way to end up with a single 5/5. ive never gotten him to reach the ultimate either, so maybe other people have had better luck with him.
I'm not a big fan of the planeswalker because there is pretty much no way that the pod will allow me to ever get it's ultimate off. Usually it'll end up being a 5cmc card that creates a vanilla 5/5 demon and possibly some marginal lifegain. I wouldn't call it a bad inclusion, but i'm pretty sure we can find better cards to fill up the slot.
Changelog:
- Necropotence: The prevention of discard is a major downside for a deck that loves discard effects. Overall it added too little to the deck to warrant keeping it's slot. I would say it even hurt the deck from being included.
- Dragon Tempest: I'm changing it for a vanilla haste enabler. The additional mana cost is worth being able to haste-ify Master of Cruelties/It That betrays/Phyrexian Obliterator.
- Blood Speaker: I gave it a fair shake. The card is just too slow. It dosen't have any impact when it comes down, needs to survive a turn before it has any effect and is then only returned to hand when a demon comes into play. If it would go back directly into play it might have been worth the trouble but is not good enough as it is.
- Herald of Torment: I've never managed to bestow the card, which means it usually is a vanilla 3/3 for 3. Not good enough.
- Exsanguinate: That classic power card in black. Just not a good fit in this one. Dead card off a Hellcarver Activation, and we usually have a low amount of "typical mana" excluding spikes from sacrifice or burnt offering. Originally i had it in as a lifegain source, and i now longer need that since i'm about to get another one.
- Forbidden Ritual: The cute flavor card. It was hilarious whenever this card played a role in winning a game, but we all know its horrible in essence. Since it's time to power up the deck a notch, this one is going away.
- Insurrection: Havent had any good opportunities to cast it. If i have enough mana to cast it, i am usually doing well enough at the table. And when i need it, i usually wouldnt have enough mana to cast it.
- Leechridden Swamp: The only synergy this has is with Master of Cruelties. That alone is not enough for me to justify it being a cipt land. Not anymore at least.
- Cabal Coffers: Even with Urborg in play (which i don't plan to remove), we usually have too few lands to benefit from Cabal Coffers. I gave it a try, and it wasn't good enough.
- Shizo, Death's Storehouse: I've never had to use it's effect personally, which means it might as well be a basic land.
+ Fervor: The replacement for Dragon's Tempest basically. I could still benefit from having mass haste effects.
+ Sneak Attack: Additional pseudo-haste enabler and accel in one. I have high hopes for Sneak Attack.
+ Whip of Erebos: Lifegain source and Creature Recursion all in one. I believe the card will perform very well in this deck.
+ Necromancy: Solid creature recursion effect since i'm trying to push the recursion ability of the deck a notch higher.
+ Animate Dead: Solid creature recursion since effect i'm trying to push the recursion ability of the deck a notch higher.
+ Kuro, Pitlord: I'm sold on trying Kuro out as a decent beater and spot removal to boot.
+ Mizzix's Mastery: I think this will eventually take Past the Flames slot in the deck. For now i'm leaving both of them in to see how they perform in comparison to one another.
+ Badlands: The utility of having an additional dual land that is a Mountain justifies the price tag on this inclusion, now that Anger might be staying in the deck.
+ Foreboding Ruins: New dual land from SOI. Looks good.
+ Ancient Tomb: Not too sure about this yet. It would help speed up the deck. I just hope it dosent cause mana problems due to only producing colorless mana.
Other considerations:
Looking forward, i'm likely to add some additional accel effects to the deck such as Generator Servant and Grinning Ignus. If i do so, then Flamekin Village would also be on my radar. I'm going to worry about these on my next round of changes though instead of now.
Played 4 1v1 games today to test out the changes i've recently made the deck. Ended the day with 3-1 score and the deck performed pretty satisfactorily in my opinion.
First Game:
The first game i played was an overwhelming loss when my opponent managed to resolve an Akroma's Memorial and 7 toughness on the board before i could swing with Rakdos. The combination of flying and protection to black basically shut down any plays i had available that game which led to pretty swift loss.
Second Game:
I basically started off the second game on full tilt by playing Demonic Consultation on the first turn for Mana Crypt. Ended up exiling about 20 cards or so before i found it.
Turn 2 saw a Faithless Looting that pitched a Sire of Insanity and Hellcarver Demon to the yard, along with a Fervor to the field.
Turn 3 i drew into a shallow grave. So i decided to resolve both animate dead and shallow grave. I decided to target Hellcarver with the shallow grave so that it wouldn't immediately die on resolution of it's triggered ability, which on hindsight almost turned out to be a tragic mistake. (To note: if i didn't hit anything noteworthy this game, i would have been left with a board of absolutely nothing)
Hellcarver's trigger goes off and the cards exiled was 3 lands, dark ritual, pox and reanimate. I play the ritual for fun, pox'd to cripple my opponent AND sac the hellcarver at the same time. Then finished off with the reanimate to bring back the hellcarver demon.
Turn 4 came about without my opponent being able to respond with his crippled mana base. I swung with hellcarver again and flipped over a Repay in Kind and Lich alongside other stuff like Final Fortune etc. My opponent just scooped before it resolved.
Third Game:
The third game was a simple Rakdos strat that won the game pretty easily. I ended up playing like 3 card draw spells and ended up with 6 life when the game ended (all dealt by myself) along with Wheel of Fortune and another draw4 card in hand still. The amount of draw in the deck left a pretty big impression after that game.
Fourth Game:
Sometime during the previous games, my opponent was mentioning how degenerate pox was, and i responded by telling him to imagine how it would have been with It That Betrays on the field as well.
My opening hand had an animate dead and reanimate once again, along with a demonic consultation.
Turn 1 I played a land and consulted eot for It That Betrays just for fun, since we were talking about it earlier. This ended up exiling over 70 cards from my library before i found the card.
Turn 2 I draw into a Doomsday. I just played a Rakdos Carnarium bouncing the previous land back to hand. I ended the turn with 8 cards in hand since i was the second player, and discarded the It That betrays to the yard.
Turn 3 I reanimated the It That Betrays and passed the turn.
Turn 4 came back to me without any answers to the creature and swung with It That Betrays gaining 2 lands off the annihilator and dealing a chunk of damage. I played the doomsday to look through my remaining cards and only found a card draw, a final fortune, world at war and 2 other reanimation effects to be the cards of note left in the library. So i stacked my library as such and tried to play a Pain's Reward to draw into the cards. I only had 14 life left after the reanimate and doomsday so i bid for 8 life (my opponent had a 5/5 creature on board). Opponent responds by raising the bid to 14 and wins it anyway.
Turn 5 comes around and i swing. Opponent sacs more lands, and chump blocks the Eldrazi. I cast Final Fortune to get to the next turn. Then cast World at War on that turn to double swing for the win.
All in all, the additional reanimation effects have proven to be the right additions to up the power level of the decks. I'm pretty happy with how well the deck is performing at the moment, and the only other aspect to improve upon might be the early game acceleration available.
Accel, yeah the deck could benefit from getting a boost in that department. It's about identifying cards that are underperforming/failed testing etc for the moment. Going to need more games to get a read on that.
Dealing with protection wise, i think the deck is fine. We do already have multiple ways to get rid of Akroma's Memorial for example. Our commander, pox, death cloud, It That Betrays and possibly others off the top of my head. Sometimes your opponent just has an excellent hand and we dont. Sometimes we just dont draw into the appropriate answers when we need to. Part and parcel of the game i'd say. Overall not too worried.
Hi guys! I have been observing the post for many months. Im so happy that the deck idea and implementing changes is still alive in this thread.
The deck is the most flavorous and most demonic-madness-riot-suicidal-fun idea Ive ever seen.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Cortract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
Do you think that Command Beacon might be good for discard/reanimation combo?
Also, do you have any other experiances in multiplayer games? Is the deck very easy to stop? How does it go if you have no combo in hand?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Magic Origins spoilers that might be relevant to this deck:
Demonic Pact: The card is just so flavorful, that i can't help but want to put it in. On the plus side, the deck has access to lots of sacrifice permanent effects, so it's unlikely that we'll ever lose to it.
Kothoped, Soul Hoarder: Just seems like a solid demon, functionally and thematically with the rest of the deck.
Dark Petition: Not too sure about this yet. On one hand it costs 5 mana to cast which is pretty costly. On the other it refunds some amount of mana which can basically mean searching and casting a free 3cmc spell. It also becomes a mana generator off a Hellcarver activation which could be something to consider. I'll have to take more time to mull this over. Any thoughts?
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
edit: clarity
Here are a few suggestions that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Boseiju, Who Shelters All has quickly become a card I automatically include in every commander deck I build. The Comes in to play tapped aspect of it can be painful, but making sure that blue players can't counter my spells has proven to be invaluable. Another lesser known card that can be backbreaking when cast off of Boseiju is Head Games, especially if you do everyone a favor at your table and gift the control player with a hand full of land.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Some basic info to do with the cuts and additions this time round. Some issues i've had:
1) Too many sorceries/instants
2) Too few creatures to pair with the sac effects/reanimations
3) Not enough to do during earlier turns (Land, go, land go unless i have a combo)
4) Not enough sustain for longer games
To fix the issues i'm facing i've decided to tone down on the spells and increase the creature count. To combat point 3, i'm adding additional mana rocks to boost me to the mid mana level earlier. To address sustain, i'm including Gary.
Changelog:
- Sensei's Divining Top: Has not been all that great with the deck, possibly due to a lack of shuffle effects.
- Rakdos Riteknife: I love the Rakdos Riteknife, but the deck simply does not have enough creatures to support the card. I hope to be able to add this back in the future.
- Bitter Ordeal: The combo is too convoluted to warrant a card slot specifically for this.
- Culling the Weak: Once again, the deck has too few creatures to support sacrificing one for this little mana.
- Temporal Extortion: Excellent card. Can't believe how many times my opponent has decided to lose 20 life just because they didn't want me to take an extra turn. That said, the card is pure "fluff" and cutting it probably wouldn't result in any impact to how the deck functions.
- Rakdos's Return: Trying to cut down on spells since the deck runs way too many and i figure this can be cut.
- Heartless Summoning: Decided to replace Heartless Summoning with conventional mana rocks instead.
+ Mana Crypt: Speeding up the deck. Finally caved in and got myself a copy of Mana Crypt for this deck as well.
+ Rakdos Signet: Additional mana rock, especially since the curve is pretty high and the deck dosen't do all that much without some amount of mana.
+ Talisman of Indulgence: Additional mana rock, especially since the curve is pretty high and the deck dosen't do all that much without some amount of mana.
+ Wheel of Fortune: I was looking for an additional discard outlet, and wheel of fortune is just too good at filling multiple roles so i couldnt avoid putting it in.
+ Ob Nixilis, Unshackled: An additional demon to buff the creature count in the deck. Ob Nixilis helps to shut down heavy tutor decks (like my cursed Kresh)
+ Korthophed, Soul Hoarder: Just testing Korthophed out to see how suicidal it is. Love the theme.
+ Gray Merchant of Asphodel: Strictly a power level inclusion to the deck. The deck is rather heavy on the life loss theme, and basically kills itself in longer attrition based games that happen more often in multiplayer. Gary simply counters that effect, and damn well at it. I didn't want to put this card in originally but it just works too well at its function.
I've been considering Demonic Pact for a long time. In the end i decided that this deck simply isn't able to abuse it enough. All we can do is sac it at the end of its lifespan unlike other decks that may be able to recur it or bounce it etc.
Dark Petition i still intend to test out in the future, just can't find the space for it yet.
Korthophed i'm still going to test out just to see how crazy it gets. I need additional creatures in the deck atm.
Sneak Attack is excellent. It serves dual function as "accel" and haste enabler. It will probably find it's way into the deck eventually. I'm basically just testing out alternative solutions to see how effective they are. The likely card it will replace is Anger.
Haha, damn that hurts. I'd be more likely to get the deck in Spanish than to make it foil due to all the old cards in the deck. Somehow strikes me as appropriate for Rakdos to be el loco espanol hombre.
Boseiju is a good card for most decks. It is heavily influenced by the meta. I'd put it in if your area is heavy into the control decks. Otherwise i'd try to limit the number of cipt lands.
Theres not much to say about Sneak Attack, it's pretty much just plug and play. The card is extremely powerful and has incredible synergy with the creatures in the deck. Pretty sure your going to have a great time with it. Let me know what your thoughts are on cauldron dance. I've considered the card multiple times, but can't find a spot to test it out personally atm. I'm already incredibly saturated on instants and sorceries atm.
I'll update the OP some other time this week. Running short of time atm.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
I think I'll keep anger in for now. He's pretty good as an additional haste enabler, even though I already have sneak attack in. I think the so called tango land will probably also see play, as I am needing as many mountain-swamps as possible. It is worth noting I am not running a fervor or mass hysteria variant. Mass hysteria is just too risky in my playgroup as it is very creature combo oriented and animar or ulasht would just go nuts with this on board.
I think grey merchant of asphodel could be interesting. Let me know if you get it off with a lich on board. I want to see what happens when a rakdos deck near decks itself. I have been considering it myself.
Final fortune has proven to be surprisingly solid, and every one in my playgroup thinks I'm plumb crazy now (I'm usually seen as the most conservative player in the group...this deck has changed their minds on just how true that is). Temporal extortion is just a bit too much mana, sadly. I am really enjoying the extra combat steps, and may include one more. I'm not sure on relentless assault or fury of the horde. I am considering running helm of awakening since as far as I know, there isn't a red/black combined medallion, though I guess I could run the medallion + apprentices as cost reducers. I have found all too many situations where a single cost reducer would have given me the game a turn sooner, even if it would help my opponent some. for this same reason, rakdos lord of riots stays in though his casting condition has been prohibitive a time or two. He's easy as all hell to reanimate and if I get one combat in with him, the game usually goes to me for the reduction effect.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
First 3 were relatively simple Rakdos commander damage wins.
Game 4 (First game against Kresh)
T5 Opponent has Sneak Attack. Uses it's ability to put Liege of the Temple into play and swings. Converting 4 Lands into Elementals.
T5 for me. I have 4 lands on the field and a land in hand. My Ogre Shaman triggers during upkeep. The only 5 mana demon that might make a difference is Master of Cruelties but it isn't going to be enough. The only 6 mana creatures that might make a difference are Hellcarver Demon and Malfegor. I decide to test my luck as this deck is supposed to and pick Malfegor. I shuffle my deck and my opponent cuts it as i tell him that hes going to help me win. I draw a card...Demonic Consultation! **** yea. Name Mana Crypt, exile amount 70+ cards from my library till i find it, play it and Malfegor to wipe out my opponent's board. I still ended up losing that game, but god was it satisfying.
Game 5
T2 Mass Hysteria
T3 Dark Ritual -> Master of Cruelties. Swing, put opponent at 1.
T4 I played Liliana to take out one of his creatures. He still has his commander left. He pumps it up to 20/20 and swings at me. I comment that my Master of Cruelties has first strike and deathtouch, he retracts his mistake and Beasts Withins my MoC before swining. I block with the token.
T5 I draw into a Forbidden Ritual! I count the board state. I have 6 permanents on the field. He has 5. I have 2 other cards in hand. He has 2 as well! DIE TO MY USELESS FORBIDDEN RITUAL YOU FOOOOOL!
First time i've won with the card, it was absolutely hilarious.
Game 6
The last game i had a classic Lake of the Dead-> Hellcarver -> Doomsday game. Decided to go for a combat damage wincon and pulled out Savage Beating, World at War, Lord of the Void, Abhorrent Overlord and It that Betrays.
Resulting Damage from that turn ended up being 168 Damage. Good times.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Another fun interaction i experienced today that i forgot to mention was Forbidden Ritual and Wheel of Fortune. I had my opponent on tilt by casting it early on. He wasn't willing to lose any cards in hand and took 8 damage from the Forbidden Ritual before i followed through with the Wheel of Fortune to dump his hand anyway and refill mine.
I still need to test out Cabal Coffers more before i can conclude on whether it belongs in the deck or not. The build is mostly black with a splash of red which has allowed Lake of the Dead and Nykthos to really shine. Even so, more often than not, i find that Anger is easy to activate as well, and usually for free thanks to a loot effect. The last card in the series to test is Cabal Coffers. However i've only gotten the card out twice throughout all my games. The first one was paired with Urborg, so i couldn't use it to judge the card. The 2nd one, was thrown away to a Faithless Looting on T1, so i wasn't able to test it there either.
Mass Hysteria has worked out great for me so far. It's main plus point would be it's super cheap casting cost and the fact that it helps put other players on tilt as well. One of the main aims i have with the deck is to cause the other players at the table to no longer be able to differentiate between a good play and a bad play, and mass hysteria lives up to its name pretty well. I can see how your meta may prevent you from abusing it well though.
With regards to Extra combat phase effects, i'm pretty happy with sticking to 2. World at War is just solid all round because it activates twice and thus pairs incredibly well with Final Fortune. Savage Beating is also great since it gives both Double Strike and an extra combat phase.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Other cards I've managed to squeeze into the list:
1x Winds of Change
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Raven's Crime
1x Recoup
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Mizzix's Mastery
1x Sneak Attack
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Kuro, Pitlord
I find myself looking for combos and dropping cards into the GY more often than not. Cards like Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mizzix's Mastery allow me to reuse our powerful filtering and reanimation spells. Raven's Crime is here to dump a Hellcarver or other choice demons in a pinch. It's awfully useful when we want to Reanimate or Shallow Grave rush. It can also be played from the grave, which is a big plus considering wheel effects, Malfegor, Sire of Insanity, Hellcarver, etc.
Pitlord is also a nice target for wiping out opposing board states, requires no mana to activate, and can be used in response. Good devotion on him too.
Things I added: r/b talisman, rakdos signet, helm of awakening. things I removed? necropotence, sneak attack, culling the weak, and a few other things.
Necropotence has proven to be a liability in this deck. I almost always draw it, and regret it. the discard to exile clause has often been very relevant, and the more important fact is that I don't get those cards until my end step, where I would have had the game win if they had just been in my hand that turn. I replaced it skeletal scrying and haven't looked back. Sneak attack just wasn't useful, since I could usually just puke up a demon with a ritual, assuming I drew one. Admittedly, my deck has a long way to go before I consider it anything like complete, but damn it's fun!
Demonic consultation has been instrumental in some key wins, but this deck rather draws the hate after some of my early game shenanigans. I mean, I remember a game recently where I started with no early mana, a hand full of beaters and lands, drew more lands and beaters, and eventually a sol ring. There were three other tribal decks at the table (elves/allies/go
blinzombies), so my turn 4 play was to drop a malfegor and make them sac their boards. I get in a couple of swings, draw a couple more lands, ,get malfegor+ my sol ring+2 lands nuked as retaliation, and then on turn 5 I draw demonic consultation and sit there wondering what I am going to do with it. I pass then turn with mana up and a land in my hand with an evil idea. I wait until the player to my lefts end step, and then demonic consultation for living death. I exile every combo win in the deck, but I get it. I then cast it on my turn with 2 lands in hand (of course, that's what I drew) reanimate my entire board, including malfegor, pitch my lands, watch them sacrifice their recurred boards while having nothing but a couple of allies and gombies on the battlefield, and I have an airforce with damage pointing upwards of 50+ (9 tokens from devotion harpy demon, xathrid demon, malfegor, + more) it was rather evil and I got the concession as no one has answers to that much flying pain before I wipe them out. I love this deck!Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I completely agree with you on Necropotence for the exact same reasons. I've replaced it with Necrologia. Sure I'm still only drawing cards during the discard phase but I can pay any amount of life and still dump relevant reanimate targets into the yard without having to exile anything else. I'm also running Moonlight Bargain which is just stellar in digging for things that I need. I'm currently considering cutting Pox for something like Mindslicer or Cabal Conditioning. While Pox is great with something like It That Betrays, I found that it didn't quite do enough to swing the game in my favor. More often than not, it just pissed off the table which causes everyone to swing at me with the creatures they have left. And they always have creatures left.
Meanwhile, Hellcarver Demon into Sire of Insanity has been absolutely brutal and definitely swings the game into our favor. Cabal Conditioning and Mindslicer would allows for similar shenanigans.
Here's my list for reference:
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Badlands
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Graven Cairns
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Leechridden Swamp
1x Mana Confluence
1x Mountain
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Rocky Tar Pit
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Smoldering Marsh
1x Spinerock Knoll
1x Sulfurous Springs
10x Swamp
1x Tainted Peak
1x Temple of Malice
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Artifact (5)
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Cruel Bargain
1x Curse of the Cabal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Doomsday
1x Exhume
1x Exsanguinate
1x Faithless Looting
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Infernal Contract
1x Insurrection
1x Living Death
1x Mizzix's Mastery
1x Night's Whisper
1x Pain's Reward
1x Pox
1x Raven's Crime
1x Read the Bones
1x Reanimate
1x Recoup
1x Repay in Kind
1x Sign in Blood
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Winds of Change
1x World at War
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Instant (13)
1x Burnt Offering
1x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Entomb
1x Final Fortune
1x Insidious Dreams
1x Moonlight Bargain
1x Necrologia
1x Rain of Filth
1x Sacrifice
1x Savage Beating
1x Shallow Grave
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Abhorrent Overlord
1x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Anger
1x Blood Speaker
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Hellcarver Demon
1x Herald of Torment
1x It That Betrays
1x Kuro, Pitlord
1x Lord of the Void
1x Malfegor
1x Master of Cruelties
1x Master of the Feast
1x Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
1x Phyrexian Obliterator
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sire Of Insanity
Enchantment (3)
1x Dragon Tempest
1x Lich
1x Mass Hysteria
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Okie, the reason for running Demonic Consultation over Tainted is mainly because Tainted gets stopped by revealing 2 swamps etc. When we play Consultation we are usually looking for that one specific card that will save the game/secure the win. The fact that it costs 1 mana is also pretty awesome. If your list has almost no basic lands, then tainted pack could make a solid addition to the tutor package in my opinion.
I agree with many of the cards that you've added into your decklist. The changelog for my deck will be found below.
Excellent point on Necropotence. It was originally put in to stop the deck from decking itself in cases of Doomsday etc, and has not been living up to expectations. The nonbo with the rest of the deck is a major turn off as well. I am cutting it from the deck as well. On to Sneak Attack. You mention that it didn't feel too useful since you could Ritual a creature into play instead. Did you take into account the utility of Sneak Attack to provide your creature haste? many of the demons in the deck have a pretty big impact even if they only stick around for a single turn. Personally i also love the fact that it sends out creatures to the yard at eot rather than exile. Makes a pretty big difference for the deck since it plays quite a few reanimation effects.
I'd suggest that Desecration Demon is doing it's intended effect by staying tapped. Psychologically, most players arent willing to spend removal on Desecration demon when they can keep it from attacking them. Yet, each time they sac something to it, they are not only causing card disadvantage for themselves, but also creating a bigger threat that they would still eventually have to deal with. Removing about 3 or 4 creatures over the course of a game for 4 mana is nothing to sneeze at in my opinion.
Mizzix's Mastery is a much more explosive play, which is the type of effect i prefer personally. I'm going to give it a try as well to see how well it performs.
I'm not a big fan of the planeswalker because there is pretty much no way that the pod will allow me to ever get it's ultimate off. Usually it'll end up being a 5cmc card that creates a vanilla 5/5 demon and possibly some marginal lifegain. I wouldn't call it a bad inclusion, but i'm pretty sure we can find better cards to fill up the slot.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
- Necropotence: The prevention of discard is a major downside for a deck that loves discard effects. Overall it added too little to the deck to warrant keeping it's slot. I would say it even hurt the deck from being included.
- Dragon Tempest: I'm changing it for a vanilla haste enabler. The additional mana cost is worth being able to haste-ify Master of Cruelties/It That betrays/Phyrexian Obliterator.
- Blood Speaker: I gave it a fair shake. The card is just too slow. It dosen't have any impact when it comes down, needs to survive a turn before it has any effect and is then only returned to hand when a demon comes into play. If it would go back directly into play it might have been worth the trouble but is not good enough as it is.
- Herald of Torment: I've never managed to bestow the card, which means it usually is a vanilla 3/3 for 3. Not good enough.
- Exsanguinate: That classic power card in black. Just not a good fit in this one. Dead card off a Hellcarver Activation, and we usually have a low amount of "typical mana" excluding spikes from sacrifice or burnt offering. Originally i had it in as a lifegain source, and i now longer need that since i'm about to get another one.
- Forbidden Ritual: The cute flavor card. It was hilarious whenever this card played a role in winning a game, but we all know its horrible in essence. Since it's time to power up the deck a notch, this one is going away.
- Insurrection: Havent had any good opportunities to cast it. If i have enough mana to cast it, i am usually doing well enough at the table. And when i need it, i usually wouldnt have enough mana to cast it.
- Leechridden Swamp: The only synergy this has is with Master of Cruelties. That alone is not enough for me to justify it being a cipt land. Not anymore at least.
- Cabal Coffers: Even with Urborg in play (which i don't plan to remove), we usually have too few lands to benefit from Cabal Coffers. I gave it a try, and it wasn't good enough.
- Shizo, Death's Storehouse: I've never had to use it's effect personally, which means it might as well be a basic land.
+ Fervor: The replacement for Dragon's Tempest basically. I could still benefit from having mass haste effects.
+ Sneak Attack: Additional pseudo-haste enabler and accel in one. I have high hopes for Sneak Attack.
+ Whip of Erebos: Lifegain source and Creature Recursion all in one. I believe the card will perform very well in this deck.
+ Necromancy: Solid creature recursion effect since i'm trying to push the recursion ability of the deck a notch higher.
+ Animate Dead: Solid creature recursion since effect i'm trying to push the recursion ability of the deck a notch higher.
+ Kuro, Pitlord: I'm sold on trying Kuro out as a decent beater and spot removal to boot.
+ Mizzix's Mastery: I think this will eventually take Past the Flames slot in the deck. For now i'm leaving both of them in to see how they perform in comparison to one another.
+ Badlands: The utility of having an additional dual land that is a Mountain justifies the price tag on this inclusion, now that Anger might be staying in the deck.
+ Foreboding Ruins: New dual land from SOI. Looks good.
+ Ancient Tomb: Not too sure about this yet. It would help speed up the deck. I just hope it dosent cause mana problems due to only producing colorless mana.
Other considerations:
Looking forward, i'm likely to add some additional accel effects to the deck such as Generator Servant and Grinning Ignus. If i do so, then Flamekin Village would also be on my radar. I'm going to worry about these on my next round of changes though instead of now.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
First Game:
The first game i played was an overwhelming loss when my opponent managed to resolve an Akroma's Memorial and 7 toughness on the board before i could swing with Rakdos. The combination of flying and protection to black basically shut down any plays i had available that game which led to pretty swift loss.
Second Game:
I basically started off the second game on full tilt by playing Demonic Consultation on the first turn for Mana Crypt. Ended up exiling about 20 cards or so before i found it.
Turn 2 saw a Faithless Looting that pitched a Sire of Insanity and Hellcarver Demon to the yard, along with a Fervor to the field.
Turn 3 i drew into a shallow grave. So i decided to resolve both animate dead and shallow grave. I decided to target Hellcarver with the shallow grave so that it wouldn't immediately die on resolution of it's triggered ability, which on hindsight almost turned out to be a tragic mistake. (To note: if i didn't hit anything noteworthy this game, i would have been left with a board of absolutely nothing)
Hellcarver's trigger goes off and the cards exiled was 3 lands, dark ritual, pox and reanimate. I play the ritual for fun, pox'd to cripple my opponent AND sac the hellcarver at the same time. Then finished off with the reanimate to bring back the hellcarver demon.
Turn 4 came about without my opponent being able to respond with his crippled mana base. I swung with hellcarver again and flipped over a Repay in Kind and Lich alongside other stuff like Final Fortune etc. My opponent just scooped before it resolved.
Third Game:
The third game was a simple Rakdos strat that won the game pretty easily. I ended up playing like 3 card draw spells and ended up with 6 life when the game ended (all dealt by myself) along with Wheel of Fortune and another draw4 card in hand still. The amount of draw in the deck left a pretty big impression after that game.
Fourth Game:
Sometime during the previous games, my opponent was mentioning how degenerate pox was, and i responded by telling him to imagine how it would have been with It That Betrays on the field as well.
My opening hand had an animate dead and reanimate once again, along with a demonic consultation.
Turn 1 I played a land and consulted eot for It That Betrays just for fun, since we were talking about it earlier. This ended up exiling over 70 cards from my library before i found the card.
Turn 2 I draw into a Doomsday. I just played a Rakdos Carnarium bouncing the previous land back to hand. I ended the turn with 8 cards in hand since i was the second player, and discarded the It That betrays to the yard.
Turn 3 I reanimated the It That Betrays and passed the turn.
Turn 4 came back to me without any answers to the creature and swung with It That Betrays gaining 2 lands off the annihilator and dealing a chunk of damage. I played the doomsday to look through my remaining cards and only found a card draw, a final fortune, world at war and 2 other reanimation effects to be the cards of note left in the library. So i stacked my library as such and tried to play a Pain's Reward to draw into the cards. I only had 14 life left after the reanimate and doomsday so i bid for 8 life (my opponent had a 5/5 creature on board). Opponent responds by raising the bid to 14 and wins it anyway.
Turn 5 comes around and i swing. Opponent sacs more lands, and chump blocks the Eldrazi. I cast Final Fortune to get to the next turn. Then cast World at War on that turn to double swing for the win.
All in all, the additional reanimation effects have proven to be the right additions to up the power level of the decks. I'm pretty happy with how well the deck is performing at the moment, and the only other aspect to improve upon might be the early game acceleration available.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Dealing with protection wise, i think the deck is fine. We do already have multiple ways to get rid of Akroma's Memorial for example. Our commander, pox, death cloud, It That Betrays and possibly others off the top of my head. Sometimes your opponent just has an excellent hand and we dont. Sometimes we just dont draw into the appropriate answers when we need to. Part and parcel of the game i'd say. Overall not too worried.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
The deck is the most flavorous and most demonic-madness-riot-suicidal-fun idea Ive ever seen.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Cortract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
Do you think that Command Beacon might be good for discard/reanimation combo?
Also, do you have any other experiances in multiplayer games? Is the deck very easy to stop? How does it go if you have no combo in hand?