unkicked sadistic taking? I can't imagine losing any three cards would affect me much because I can aim for a different combo easily.
I agree, though the deck dies to it's heavy mana requirements, and if I cannot develop my mana properly I just don't do much of anything at all. not sure where to fit the expedition map in though. I do have a lot of card draw though: ancient craving, read the bones, ambition's cost, promise of power. most of the early game is just drawing cards and hitting land drops. most of the time my first XHD activation is to return one of my draw spells as well.
love the look of your hokori deck btw. but I can't imagine why you would choose it as your first commander.
unkicked sadistic taking? I can't imagine losing any three cards would affect me much because I can aim for a different combo easily.
I agree, though the deck dies to it's heavy mana requirements, and if I cannot develop my mana properly I just don't do much of anything at all. not sure where to fit the expedition map in though. I do have a lot of card draw though: ancient craving, read the bones, ambition's cost, promise of power. most of the early game is just drawing cards and hitting land drops. most of the time my first XHD activation is to return one of my draw spells as well.
love the look of your hokori deck btw. but I can't imagine why you would choose it as your first commander.
Lol. I wanted to piss people off at the time, and I liked Kamigawa. Ah, to be young and immature. It became something much scarier as I grew as a player.
the primary combo for now is the twilight's call / living death.
Secondary combo would be triskelion/necrotic ooze/phyrexian devourer/mikaeus the unhallowed
tertiary would be rings of brighthearth/deserted temple with coffers/nykthos/crypt, following up with exsanguinate
I feel like corpse dance is too good to not have, but i'll probably cut a dictate of erebos. I like having the card draw since it digs for combo, and fuels skirge familiar. that card is insane.
I considered tendrils of agony since I can cast my deck pretty easily, but gray merchant is just better everytime.
A large part of why I'm against the big-mana focus is that when I look at a card that costs 5-mana or more (heck, sometimes even at 3-4 mana), I almost always want it to do enough useful things immediately. This is why I am generally opposed to running cards like Dictate of Erebos, Mikeaus, the Unhallowed, or, say, Grave Betrayal, to begin with.
Storm plans are better with a pretty solid tutor package.
Stop! In the name of Hedrons looks like a decent colorless wrath effect for black decks to use against certain pesky cards. I'll probably stick with Tawnos's Coffin, but this is a nice and likely cheap alternative. Ulamog, the Hungry Hungry Hippo is a pretty solid reanimator target. Possibly still not worth it based on CMC, but we may see on that.
Love the primer and have started to build a XHD EDH myself! I was wondering why you don't run Geralf's Messenger? With Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle it kills the table if they lack a way to exile it.
Thanks. The messenger is a consideration. It doesn't insert itself well into Corpse Dance combos or Rings of Brighthearth combos, but it is good for the combo you mentioned. I am a little turned off by the colored commitment, though.
Great primer! I'm slowly working my Maga, Traitor To Mortals EDH into a Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed deck, mostly because my Maga deck was never winning via Maga but rather the combos inside it. I really like how acts as black-anything recursion, which black is surprisingly low on outside of its massive creature reanimation options.
A question re: Blood Funnel. Isn't this card extremely dangerous to run given the low creature count? I keep on thinking of scenario where you're stuck with Blood Funnel on the battlefield, unable to cast anything.
( Edit: lol, that smiley is supposed to be X D for Xiahou Dun, but I'm gonna leave it as is. )
A question re: Blood Funnel. Isn't this card extremely dangerous to run given the low creature count? I keep on thinking of scenario where you're stuck with Blood Funnel on the battlefield, unable to cast anything.
Blood Funnel is a bit risky at the moment, but in my opinion, is not quite risky enough to remove. If it didn't have the ability to win me the game on the spot when I drop it, it wouldn't be. It's one of those cards that will always be up for consideration for removal based on the creatures and combos included. It does work amazingly well with Corpse Dance, though, so for now, it's in a good position to stay in the deck.
Which of these cards should be struck from consideration because of devoid or because they are not efficient enough in terms of their cost-effect ratio?
Stop! In the name of Hedrons looks like a decent colorless wrath effect for black decks to use against certain pesky cards. I'll probably stick with Tawnos's Coffin, but this is a nice and likely monetarily cheap alternative. Ulamog, the Hungry Hungry Hippo is a pretty solid reanimator target. Possibly still not worth it based on CMC, but we may see on that.
I absolutely love your primer and Xiahou as a whole, he's been a general I've been hyper interested in for a long time and finally managed to get one. That being said, looking at your list, there are four "expensive" cards that I do not have. I'm curious if I could operate on a similar game plan without these cards:
Word of Command
Grim Tutor
Abyss
Chains
Nether Void (didn't see this in your list)
also Imp Seal (will likely not have this for a while)
I'm curious if you had any potential alternatives or if I should just try again to build the deck when I had those. Also, if there are alternatives, what would you consider the order of acquisition?
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My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
I absolutely love your primer and Xiahou as a whole, he's been a general I've been hyper interested in for a long time and finally managed to get one. That being said, looking at your list, there are four "expensive" cards that I do not have. I'm curious if I could operate on a similar game plan without these cards:
Word of Command
Grim Tutor
Abyss
Chains
Nether Void (didn't see this in your list)
also Imp Seal (will likely not have this for a while)
I'm curious if you had any potential alternatives or if I should just try again to build the deck when I had those. Also, if there are alternatives, what would you consider the order of acquisition?
Budget alternatives:
Word of Command - no alternative
Grim Tutor - Diaboloic Tutor (+1 mana)
Abyss - There are several good variants of this effect, Kuon, Anowan, the zombie variant (name escapes me at moment)
Chains - No alternative
Nether Void - Sphere of Resistance OR Trinisphere
Imperial Seal - Cruel Tutor, although more drawing could work too.
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I absolutely love your primer and Xiahou as a whole, he's been a general I've been hyper interested in for a long time and finally managed to get one. That being said, looking at your list, there are four "expensive" cards that I do not have. I'm curious if I could operate on a similar game plan without these cards:
Word of Command
Grim Tutor
Abyss
Chains
Nether Void (didn't see this in your list)
also Imp Seal (will likely not have this for a while)
I'm curious if you had any potential alternatives or if I should just try again to build the deck when I had those. Also, if there are alternatives, what would you consider the order of acquisition?
The main threats in my meta that I would have to deal with are Derevi and Daretti, any suggestions? I usually like Null Rod as a colorless answer but we're a little high on artifacts for that.
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My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
The main threats in my meta that I would have to deal with are Derevi and Daretti, any suggestions? I usually like Null Rod as a colorless answer but we're a little high on artifacts for that.
I think besides those, you can also go more resource denial-focused against Derevi.
Daretti, I'm not actually sure. Disciple of the Vault comes to mind, though it's possibly not strong enough (and doesn't do anything besides being a hate card). Grave Robbers is similar. Haunting Wind might hurt you some too, though you could work to make it asymmetric, and probably include a card to sac permanents while you're at it. If Daretti is faster than you, you might consider Trinisphere; it won't hurt you at the end game most of the time. Oh, two other potential decent artifact hate cards: Tower of the Magistrate and Karn, Silver Golem.
Last but not least, your exiling-from-deck effects should come in handy against both decks.
Scourge of Nel Toth: While this card has the potential to work, I think you'd have to jump through a few too many hoops.
Wretched Confluence: In my build, 5 mana makes this card unattractive. In other MBC builds, this could be a star player.
Command Beacon: OOH! Some potential here (And for most other decks with generals of CMC 4 or higher). I'll add in this along with Petrified Field. At the very least, this has kickstart potential for combos.
I think I'll also test Buried Alive and see how well that works.
-contamination... so easy to lock out the others with a bitterblossom/skeleton/bloodghast
-infernal darkness... too expensive? even if you wont pay the cost its still a sort of timewalk vs non black
Some not mentioned cards:
I also really love ophiomancer. Its a real defender. Gives you 2 free colorless with a altar then pops out another deadly snake at opponents upkeep!
I dont run many creatures but im always happy with ritual of the machine. Stealing for 4 is good.
Also crypt rats/ pestilence really help controlling the board while you build your combo.
I realise these cards wont make your combo but they will keep you alive.
How do you like the triskelion, ooze, devourer combo? Its a nice i win combo but i sometimes find devourer/triskelion stuck in my hand wich is really meh...
And did you ever got to play guardian beast???
Im currently building a xiahou dun but im still undecided if i go stax or combo or a combination of those route
In case you couldn't tell, I'm kinda anti-mana-sink and I generally focus my curve at below CMC 4. While cards like Pestilence can be nice, it is a different plan of attack than what I usually go for, and it is one that is much weaker in many of the groups in which I have played.
Ophiomancer is... okay. I kinda just don't have something that I would slot out for it, but I'd certainly suggest it as a budget replacement for Bitterblossom.
Ritual of the Machine, while a very cool card, is also very high on the resource demands, so I'm probably going to go with no for now. I may try for the more standard huge-mana-thug black deck at some point, but for now that is not what I am doing here.
The Contamination variants have proven remarkably ineffective when I have played them. Black tries to do a lot of things, and I have yet to see it really succeed at a comfortably effective Blood Moon in any aggressively low-cost build.
Guardian Beast was okay, but I eventually took it out since it wasn't proving meta-useful (its main purpose in testing). It may slot back in at some point; at the very least, it's at the back of my mind.
Necrotic Ooze slots in okay to XHD. Devourer... Ehh. Triskelion... Ehh. I like that it can be hit with Buried Alive, and at the very least for that reason I could see considering it. It's certainly fast, but is in some ways more glass cannon than some of the other XHD combo options.
Stax and Combo are both legit. Personally, I almost always suggest the combination of the two, but it's very much up to what works for the pilot of the deck.
Sengir autocrat is also nice with either one of the altars. Its either 8 colorless or 4 black mana for either unlimited mana combo or a storm combo. Altough its s--- whitout a altar unlike grave titan wich is also just a fatty. wurmcoil is also better but this is only 4 mana. t2 nim t3 altar t4 this?
I kinda miss the mindcrank / bloodchief ascension combo, bloodchief is good for multiplayer, no investement much life and damage. When its online its too easy to tutor mind crank and drop it for 2.
Also dont underestimate the triskelion, necrotic ooze thing it can win out of nowhere with as less as 4 or 5 mana. I play 3 reanimate spells, tutoring a buried alive then going of random is easy.
I'll consider the Autocrat. Its disadvantages are pretty extreme, though.
I've found that Bloodchief Ascension is basically only good when your opponents don't know how powerful it is. That ceased to be the case in almost every group I played it in, so I stopped running it. Mindcrank is useless without Bloodchief Ascension.
I never want to draw Triskelion. If I have a six-drop in my deck, I want to be at least a little happy to draw it. Yes, you can argue that it's not hard to get it out of my hand and into my yard, but at the same time, it will always cost significant resources to do so, when those resources could instead be spent on winning.
I draw triskelion often. And while 6 is a lot of mana for a 4/4 shooting some little guys with it is sometimes nice.
The thing with bloodchief is that its perfectly fine without mindcrank. When online it takes 2 and gives 2. Nice. Mindcrank not so much on its own. But its easy and may give some extra reanimate targets.
Im aware that sengir autocrat could be switched for a wurmcoil in addition to the grave titan BUT i also play skullclamp and 3x 0/1 serfs give a nice draw. Plus ppl laugh when you cast it!
PS: i tried shrouded lore from your list, and it works perfectly, i was always told it was bad but for xiahou: awesome.
Basically every use of Bloodchief for me has been win-more or having it eat removal. While that's okay on a 1-drop, it doesn't really satisfy a good slot...
Devoid... the bane of my existence for set reviews. I'll be glad for the next set when I just have to look at cards that I don't want for the deck, rather than cards that I would want if only they were actually colored black.
Oath of the Gatewatch:
Inverter of Truth: Maybe. This is a very risky method of trying to ensure a combo. And devoid hurts this card a lot.
Sifter of Skulls: Oh hey, look, it’s a terrible version of Pawn of Ulamog! Well, clearly I should put in this high cost, colorlessPawn of Ulamog, right? Moving on… Stupid devoid. *grumble* *grumble*
Mirrorpool: Ooh. I like this. I may play around with this a bit. If only it didn’t come into play tapped…
Sea Gate Wreckage: I’m probably going to play with this card in a couple decks; it seems very good for EDH…
All in all, the main message from this entire block is that I despise devoid.
I'm not 100% on the colourless thing just yet but...so?
I can't bring it back with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. I can't remember the last time I wanted/needed Pawn of Ulamog back.
If colourless means I can't play cards with waste mana all the lands that used to tap for 1are now errated and tap for waste, ie Wasteland, Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower, and would be unusable as well. (this is something I'm still confused with and would like an answer)
I'm not trying to be flippant I just need this explained.
Colourless means it isn't black, that's all. Also there's no such thing as "waste mana". It's just the same colourless mana that has always been around. No card has been errata-ed.
Anyway, so what are you using Pawn for? Between the fact that it costs one more mana, isn't black, and doesn't make a token when it dies... that sort of shuts down most of the combo uses of it. It can still sit around and create value, for sure.
Look at all the combos in the OP that use Pawn of Ulamog. Most of them don't work with Sifter of Skulls. Sifter is unquestionably worse than Pawn. You could add it for some extra value and one or two combos, certainly.
I agree, though the deck dies to it's heavy mana requirements, and if I cannot develop my mana properly I just don't do much of anything at all. not sure where to fit the expedition map in though. I do have a lot of card draw though: ancient craving, read the bones, ambition's cost, promise of power. most of the early game is just drawing cards and hitting land drops. most of the time my first XHD activation is to return one of my draw spells as well.
love the look of your hokori deck btw. but I can't imagine why you would choose it as your first commander.
Lol. I wanted to piss people off at the time, and I liked Kamigawa. Ah, to be young and immature. It became something much scarier as I grew as a player.
Cut one of Ancient Craving or Ambition's Cost? Or, depending on budget, start replacing some of your big cards with other alternatives? Like replacing big dudes with Toxic Deluge, Expedition Map, etc.
As for the Sadistic Sacrament idea, I just feel that you might want to look over your options and consider another back-up combo or three.
Secondary combo would be triskelion/necrotic ooze/phyrexian devourer/mikaeus the unhallowed
tertiary would be rings of brighthearth/deserted temple with coffers/nykthos/crypt, following up with exsanguinate
I feel like corpse dance is too good to not have, but i'll probably cut a dictate of erebos. I like having the card draw since it digs for combo, and fuels skirge familiar. that card is insane.
I considered tendrils of agony since I can cast my deck pretty easily, but gray merchant is just better everytime.
Storm plans are better with a pretty solid tutor package.
Ulamog, the Hungry Hungry Hippo is a pretty solid reanimator target. Possibly still not worth it based on CMC, but we may see on that.
Thanks. The messenger is a consideration. It doesn't insert itself well into Corpse Dance combos or Rings of Brighthearth combos, but it is good for the combo you mentioned. I am a little turned off by the colored commitment, though.
A question re: Blood Funnel. Isn't this card extremely dangerous to run given the low creature count? I keep on thinking of scenario where you're stuck with Blood Funnel on the battlefield, unable to cast anything.
( Edit: lol, that smiley is supposed to be X D for Xiahou Dun, but I'm gonna leave it as is. )
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
Blood Funnel is a bit risky at the moment, but in my opinion, is not quite risky enough to remove. If it didn't have the ability to win me the game on the spot when I drop it, it wouldn't be. It's one of those cards that will always be up for consideration for removal based on the creatures and combos included. It does work amazingly well with Corpse Dance, though, so for now, it's in a good position to stay in the deck.
What cards are worth considering for a similar mono-black control deck, to start?
Complete Disregard, Grip of Desolation, Ob Nixilis Reignited, Retreat to Hagra, Ruinous Path, Smothering Aberration, Transgress the Mind, Vampiric Rites, Zulaport Cutthroat, Scour from Existance, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Aligned Hedron Network
Which of these cards should be struck from consideration because of devoid or because they are not efficient enough in terms of their cost-effect ratio?
Complete Disregard, Grip of Desolation, Ob Nixilis Reignited, Retreat to Hagra, Ruinous Path, Transgress the Mind, Scour from Existance
What remains?
Smothering Aberration, Vampiric Rites, Zulaport Cutthroat, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Aligned Hedron Network
Out of these, which should be struck from consideration due to just not being very good (maybe comparatively to other pre-existing cards)?
Smothering Aberration, Vampiric Rites, Zulaport Cutthroat
What remains?
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Aligned Hedron Network
I think what I said earlier about these cards still stands:
If I pick up an Ulamog, the Eyes Bigger Than the Stomach, I'll test it, I guess. I'm not super enthused, though.
I absolutely love your primer and Xiahou as a whole, he's been a general I've been hyper interested in for a long time and finally managed to get one. That being said, looking at your list, there are four "expensive" cards that I do not have. I'm curious if I could operate on a similar game plan without these cards:
Word of Command
Grim Tutor
Abyss
Chains
Nether Void (didn't see this in your list)
also Imp Seal (will likely not have this for a while)
I'm curious if you had any potential alternatives or if I should just try again to build the deck when I had those. Also, if there are alternatives, what would you consider the order of acquisition?
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
Budget alternatives:
Word of Command - no alternative
Grim Tutor - Diaboloic Tutor (+1 mana)
Abyss - There are several good variants of this effect, Kuon, Anowan, the zombie variant (name escapes me at moment)
Chains - No alternative
Nether Void - Sphere of Resistance OR Trinisphere
Imperial Seal - Cruel Tutor, although more drawing could work too.
None of those cards are essential to the deck. I might suggest Dark Petition in place of Grim Tutor. The Abyss and Chains of Mephistopheles can be replaced with other cards that fit better to your meta or support the deck. (Night of Souls' Betrayal, Buried Alive, Shadows of the Past, etc?) Word of Command is mostly just nifty, but again can be replaced with basically anything that provides good support or is good in your meta. I don't have Nether Void or Imperial Seal.
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker are decent artifact choices.
I think besides those, you can also go more resource denial-focused against Derevi.
Daretti, I'm not actually sure. Disciple of the Vault comes to mind, though it's possibly not strong enough (and doesn't do anything besides being a hate card). Grave Robbers is similar. Haunting Wind might hurt you some too, though you could work to make it asymmetric, and probably include a card to sac permanents while you're at it. If Daretti is faster than you, you might consider Trinisphere; it won't hurt you at the end game most of the time. Oh, two other potential decent artifact hate cards: Tower of the Magistrate and Karn, Silver Golem.
Last but not least, your exiling-from-deck effects should come in handy against both decks.
I think I'll also test Buried Alive and see how well that works.
In case you couldn't tell, I'm kinda anti-mana-sink and I generally focus my curve at below CMC 4. While cards like Pestilence can be nice, it is a different plan of attack than what I usually go for, and it is one that is much weaker in many of the groups in which I have played.
Ophiomancer is... okay. I kinda just don't have something that I would slot out for it, but I'd certainly suggest it as a budget replacement for Bitterblossom.
Ritual of the Machine, while a very cool card, is also very high on the resource demands, so I'm probably going to go with no for now. I may try for the more standard huge-mana-thug black deck at some point, but for now that is not what I am doing here.
The Contamination variants have proven remarkably ineffective when I have played them. Black tries to do a lot of things, and I have yet to see it really succeed at a comfortably effective Blood Moon in any aggressively low-cost build.
Guardian Beast was okay, but I eventually took it out since it wasn't proving meta-useful (its main purpose in testing). It may slot back in at some point; at the very least, it's at the back of my mind.
Necrotic Ooze slots in okay to XHD. Devourer... Ehh. Triskelion... Ehh. I like that it can be hit with Buried Alive, and at the very least for that reason I could see considering it. It's certainly fast, but is in some ways more glass cannon than some of the other XHD combo options.
Stax and Combo are both legit. Personally, I almost always suggest the combination of the two, but it's very much up to what works for the pilot of the deck.
Basically every use of Bloodchief for me has been win-more or having it eat removal. While that's okay on a 1-drop, it doesn't really satisfy a good slot...
Acquired Sengir Autocrat but not yet Command Beacon, Petrified Field, and Buried Alive.
From Oath so far (62 cards) I'm thinking Mirrorpool and/or Sea Gate Wreckage.
Oath of the Gatewatch:
Inverter of Truth: Maybe. This is a very risky method of trying to ensure a combo. And devoid hurts this card a lot.
Sifter of Skulls: Oh hey, look, it’s a terrible version of Pawn of Ulamog! Well, clearly I should put in this high cost, colorless Pawn of Ulamog, right? Moving on… Stupid devoid. *grumble* *grumble*
Mirrorpool: Ooh. I like this. I may play around with this a bit. If only it didn’t come into play tapped…
Sea Gate Wreckage: I’m probably going to play with this card in a couple decks; it seems very good for EDH…
All in all, the main message from this entire block is that I despise devoid.
Same trigger but costs one more but, has a bigger body and the tokens it makes have power.
Just interested what you fellow think.
CommanderEDH Decks:CommanderEDH DecksWULavinia of the Blinking TenthUW RGURiku the Epic Experimenter’s StormUGR UBRThrax and his Super FriendsRBU RWUZedruu the Hard HeartedUWR
WBU Zur the UnstoppableUBW
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
I can't bring it back with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. I can't remember the last time I wanted/needed Pawn of Ulamog back.
If colourless means I can't play cards with waste mana all the lands that used to tap for 1are now errated and tap for waste, ie Wasteland, Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower, and would be unusable as well. (this is something I'm still confused with and would like an answer)
I'm not trying to be flippant I just need this explained.
CommanderEDH Decks:CommanderEDH DecksWULavinia of the Blinking TenthUW RGURiku the Epic Experimenter’s StormUGR UBRThrax and his Super FriendsRBU RWUZedruu the Hard HeartedUWR
WBU Zur the UnstoppableUBW
Anyway, so what are you using Pawn for? Between the fact that it costs one more mana, isn't black, and doesn't make a token when it dies... that sort of shuts down most of the combo uses of it. It can still sit around and create value, for sure.
Look at all the combos in the OP that use Pawn of Ulamog. Most of them don't work with Sifter of Skulls. Sifter is unquestionably worse than Pawn. You could add it for some extra value and one or two combos, certainly.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged