This is an attempt at mono-red storm with arcane spells. EDIT: A group of us is intending to compile a multi-writer approach to Zada with a variety of methods. DementedKirby has an in depth budget post here
As it may sound, this deck will be playing commons that have not seem the light of day since one of the most notoriously de-powered sets rotated out of standard. I am aware that this is perhaps the most fragile glass cannon that could be built, and I hope you agree with me that it is hilarious. I am trying to make this deck as powerful/consistent as is reasonable possible without deviating from the tag line, so please suggest anything that comes to mind. Yes, I did just ask for consistency in mono-red.
Like other Zada decks, we will be playing a large number of targeting pump spells, such as downhill charge, rouse the mob, and temur battle rage. Unlike other Zada decks, I don't want to settle for mere overkill. I want to cast path of anger's flame and other arcane spells with overblaze spliced into it as many times as possible. Side Note: current cap in testing has been 15 instances of overblaze and my personal damage record in game is 320 trillion.
Playing a high density of instants/sorceries has made young pyromancer and goblinslide the most effective token generating permanents this deck has to offer. These are especially effective when properly stacking the triggers to generate the tokens before Zada's trigger resolves. Pyromancer in particular quickly gets out of hand once twinflame has been cast a couple of times.
Never hardcast desperate ritual. This card must remain in your hand until the final splicing of overblaze or you will likely run out of mana.
When heat shimmer and twinflame hit Krenko, let the original die so that the token can activate.
Be careful of your creature count when casting a cantrip. It can be difficult to win if your library is empty and there are still Zada radiated draw triggers on the stack. There are, however ways to win with this on the stack.
If you're looking to chain cantrips, I wouldn't recommend going for it unless you have at least Zada and 4 other creatures. An ideal starting point is 5+. This advise is based on the statistical probability/card density of my deck and may vary for your own build.
Notable Current Exclusions:
No ramp? The cost reducing artifacts typically cover the grand majority of the colorless requirements. Colorless mana is nowhere near enough to keep the engines running, if you're looking to accelerate this deck look for sources of [mana]r/mana]. I added this exclusively to ramp out Zada sooner. It's usually dead weight if already going off. I may swap it back to a mountain. Definitely not required, but the sol ring -> cost reduction into turn 2 Zada + pyromancer hands tempted me with higher frequency.
[Dualcaster mage[/c] goes infinite with twinflame and heat shimmer, but I am strictly avoiding infinite. A reshuffle effect would also let us go infinite, so if I went that route it would probably be that route.
Possibility Storm is absurdly effective, but be cautious about the arcane spells in your hand. If into the fray and desperate ritual are in your hand and the possibility storm is out, you will get better mileage by casting a different spell and trying to flip into an arcane spell to splice onto, until your mana runs low enough that it becomes worthwhile. I mention into the fray because it is a cheap slice, targeting spell that turns on the radiate option for path of anger's flame. Possibility storm cost too much mana for me. It's still good, just a turn too slow.
Possibility storm and Zada both trigger and can be stacked in either order. I suggest resolving Zada first if the card in question is titan's strength or a spliced arcane spell.
Possibility storm works well in a slower rolling deck, as it also adds enough chaos to disrupt removal from opponents.
seize the day implies anyone would survive the first combat. Admittedly, it would allow for more options to cast combatspecificcan-trips. Notice that most of those won't draw more cards that turn anyway. Consider final fortune instead.
Purphoros, God of the Forge is usually win-more/ win sooner. It gets hard to overkill people when they're already dead.
EDIT: I've rebalanced some of my cantrip suite recently and took out the least useful arcane carrier. The changes improved consistency, but sacrificed some of the instant speed flexibility. This means that a higher premium should be kept on the remaining instant speed options, in order to continue going off around disruption.
I like the direction with the storm deck and the idea to use Desperate Ritual with arcane pump spells is really awesome. The only things I can think of that you may want is Flaring Pain-like effects in case you encounter a Fog and I'd still suggest chaos warp as a catch all answer to stuff red normally can't answer like Darksteel mutation
This is an amusing and flavorful way to take the deck. I'm playing Zada storm too, opting more for some goblin tribal and general token-themed strategies over arcane, but the core of our decks are similar. And I still play the Desperate Ritual + Blazing Shoal interaction anyways.
Some general things I'd suggest looking into-
Dualcaster Mage goes infinite with Heat Shimmer and Twinflame, but it's also just a good card in general with the deck. Copying rituals is pretty important sometimes, and he can be cast in response to counterspells to save you from them.
If you want more ritual effects, Treasonous Ogre and Koth of the Hammer are really good in Zada. Koth can +1 to give you a little more mana as well as another body on the field for Zada's effects, and I'm often content to just play him and -2 him to cast Zada, but he can also -2 to give you a nice burst of mana. Treasonous Ogre is insane, and is a ritual that adds a body to boot. Sometimes you find yourself just needing one or two more mana while you're going off, and he can provide that. In some testing games I've played, I've even just sunk 30 life into him for 10 mana to finish off a game quickly.
I didn't really like Thatcher's Revolt much. The tokens disappear after a turn, so it's useless as a turn 3 play, and is only good if you're casting it *and* a pump spell in the same turn, which is kind of awkward. I'd suggest replacing it with Goblin Rabblemaster, as it produces a body a turn, and can also attack for quite a lot.
One thing I've had to be cautious about is that Zada decks have a hidden cost to them--even though our mana curve appears really low, we're playing a huge amount of spells that do nothing significant without Zada on the field, so a lot of our spells have the hidden additional cost of "you can only cast this after turn 4". So if we play too many of those cards, we're going to have games where our hands are chock full of cards that don't do anything until much later in the game. Since I've started testing my deck, I've significantly decreased the number of pump spells I originally ran, as they got stuck in my hand too often. The deck is capable of drawing truly insane amounts of cards, so it's not hard to find some when you're going off, and you generally only need one or two to close out a game--Balduvian Rage and Blazing Shoal being the best ones for this.
Zada is a ton of fun, and I'm glad to see other people taking the deck in a more storm-like direction.
DarklingScribe, you're probably right that I should be playing more answers to my rather glaring weaknesses. Flaring pain works well by having flashback to circumvent the potential counterspell. I'd consider wild slash in this slot as well. Ideally, you'll have pumped your creatures already and you can make enough copies to survive and still copy the spell. Otherwise, don't target Zada.
Admiral Sultan, you are completely right about spells that only work with Zada out. I've also removed some of the targeted pump spells, tending to keep lower cost and/or toughness and ability options.
I'd tried out treasonous ogre, but with no life gain it could only net 13 mana. I do like that the ogre is a creature. I'm trying out mana geyser in that slot right now, as casting it turn 4-5 has net similar amount of mana, and it has more synergies with flashback. I'll probably swap back after testing.
Koth of the Hammer is a card I'd never considered, and that's pretty awesome. Mana generation with either ability and animating a land for improved radiate is sweet. I may try him as a lower curve option to the aforementioned ogre and geyser.
dualcaster mage should have been a notable exception, I'll append it into that section shortly. You make a good point about copying rituals. If I could get more uses out of inner fire, that would be great. I may try out increasing vengeance as a placeholder for the mage.
Thatcher revolt is...bad, I agree. However, it's proven both lethal and efficient in those final bursts. Due to the density of card draw in the deck, I was more willing to try it along with tempt with vengeance as one-shot effects for more tokens. While nowhere near as effective as heat shimmer and twinflame, you have to have a starting critical mass of creatures to work, and the revolt seems to get the job done. In contrast, goblin rabblemaster won't make three creatures until your next turn's combat. Given the mostly one-shot nature of the deck I was perhaps overvaluing more efficient token sources.
Akroan Crusader seems pretty awful in Zada decks, since you want to be targeting Zada with the spells instead and Heroic doesn't trigger off spell copies. You might want to find room for Siege-Gang Commander.
I just realized that mana echoes might help you out and could make the gobinslide costs essentially free when going off. I know it is colorless, but it will at least cover the colorless mana in your splice costs.
Ally Encampment could be used as an emergency bounce spell to protect Zada, in the same way a lot of decks use High Market rather than let some targeted spell or theft effect nerf their commander.
Legion Loyalist and Firemantle Mage might also be worth testing as redundancies that give your whole team different types of evasion and Chasm Guide will give your team haste, but I am less sure about that card than the evation ones. I get the feeling that when Oath of the Gatewatch is spoiled, there might be more Ally support in red that is worth looking at. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of temporary elemental creature token effect like Akoum Stonewaker attached to a rally trigger rather than a Landfall trigger which could make other allys more playable.
Akroan Crusader seems pretty awful in Zada decks, since you want to be targeting Zada with the spells instead and Heroic doesn't trigger off spell copies. You might want to find room for Siege-Gang Commander.
Akroan Crusader fills two roles. First, it's a cheap creature. Second, it's a backup token source. In the unlikely but possible event that no other token sources are drawn, I'm will to blow pump spells early to make tokens. The deck can and will fall flat without sufficient creatures in play. I'm willing to waste a non-cantripping pump spell to get an extra creature. This same play has also worked with young pyromancer. I mention cheap creatures because the best case scenario, the turn you untap with Zada is the turn you win. Due to the aforementioned requisite creature density for the deck to function, I want creatures out when I start triggering Zada. This drove me toward cheaper creatures, which happened to have synergies with storm.
I just realized that mana echoes might help you out and could make the gobinslide costs essentially free when going off. I know it is colorless, but it will at least cover the colorless mana in your splice costs.
Ally Encampment could be used as an emergency bounce spell to protect Zada, in the same way a lot of decks use High Market rather than let some targeted spell or theft effect nerf their commander.
Legion Loyalist and Firemantle Mage might also be worth testing as redundancies that give your whole team different types of evasion and Chasm Guide will give your team haste, but I am less sure about that card than the evation ones. I get the feeling that when Oath of the Gatewatch is spoiled, there might be more Ally support in red that is worth looking at. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of temporary elemental creature token effect like Akoum Stonewaker attached to a rally trigger rather than a Landfall trigger which could make other allys more playable.
mana echoes would be a great source of extra colorless mana. You are correct that it is otherwise difficult to find large amounts of colorless for splicing spells. I've been using R, but a good colorless source like this could work well, as well as turning tempt with vengeance into awesome ritual (pay XR, get X squared mana)
Of the suggested creatures that provide evasion, I like legion loyalist the most, again mostly due to mana cost. Ideally, we have 2-3 creatures out when Zada is cast, and the low cost creatures help make sure we get to that point. As to the other creatures, they're a bit too high cost for me. I'd rather play a cheaper spell for my evasion, such as rouse the mob and fatal frenzy. Traitorous blood could be good here too, and worst case would grab a creature to radiate more.
My typical finish has been to start with Zada and a reasonable number of creatures, 3-7, depending on what they are and what's in hand. I'm somewhat hesitant to go for it with nothing but 3 goblin tokens, but if my hand has twinflame, brightstone ritual and a cantrip, that should set me up with 7 creatures, 7 more cards, and 5-6 mana floating. If I draw well, great I can keep going. Otherwise, I'll drop whatever creatures/token spells and setup for a better following turn.
A better start would be something including more creatures, obviously. Best case is young pyromancer followed by hordling outburst turn three, which set us up for 6-7 creatures turn 5 (counting the first one created that turn by the pyromancer). In this situation, I would still start with the twinflame/heat shimmer, to start doubling up on pyromancer triggers early.
Once we're committed, it usually goes play more creatures -> ramp/ritual -> draw more cards -> repeat. Purphoros, God of the Forge and Impact Tremors would reduce lifetotals before the final turn, but I'm not sure by how much. I could see triggering tremors 4-12 times before I was sure that I could be lethal through other means. Purphoros, costing twice as much, would likely see 2-8 triggers before getting to the same point. Both of these are appreciable amounts of damage, but I'm not sure if I'd want to slot them into a storm list unless I was worried about combat prevention.
Despite not synergizing with zada themselves, haze of rage is looking pretty good for a storm deck that wants to attack...
haze of rage was in my original list and got swapped for targeted pump spells. It is a bit disengenous to claim a storm deck with only one storm spell (that I don't even treat as my win-condition, it's just tokens). I may slot it back in in the future.
Deck update after some testing, first post edited. Removed:
Mountain
skyfire kirin was an attempt to give more depth to my arcane package, which is only 8 cards. It was also nearly at the top of my curve, and didn't have enough impact.
mana geyser is great with flashback, but it was a ritual at the top of my curve and didn't always perform as expected.
fit of rage was removed in my effort to cast more meaningful spells in the critical turn.
faithless looting was good at digging into a real draw spell, but as my only such red spell, I've set it aside for now.
gamble is pretty much the only way to tutor in mono-red.
treasonous ogre is a creature and a mana source. Squeezing every bit if mana out of all resources is what storm does, and plays very well here.
portent of betrayal functions as a creature if you target and opponent's creature, some serious deck searching in the storm, and a way to untap krenko, mob boss to have enough creatures.
mogg fanatic is a low cost goblin, with a free ability to deal non-combat damage. With only 6 instances of overblaze, this meager goblin is suddenly a lethal threat. The best part is that nobody will take him seriously to start with, and typically forgets that it's on the battlefield. Add in some goblin synergy and season with twinflame to barbecue the table. Pia and Kiran Nalaar have this same capability, and I wanted more of it.
4x Fetchlands as a way to shuffle away after scroll rack. These are a bit over budget for now.
siege-gang commander is a wonderful source of goblin tokens, synergizes well with twinflame, and deals non-combat damage to boot. However, it costs 5 mana. I'm planning to test it in the space of goblin rally.
elixir of immortality is a surprising inclusion for some other Zada decks that have been posted, and it confused me. Then I decked myself by having too many creatures and no sacrifice outlet, with enough cards in my graveyard to have survived. It seems like a card that won't do anything, but who knows?
crack the earth looks painful for everyone. It's an arcane, which I like, but I have to wonder if wiping out everyone else's permanents at the cost of my creatures is worth the reset button. I'm thinking no, but it is by far too hilarious a board wipe not to mention.
thermopod is a good mana source, but I am again balking at the mana cost.
I am surprised at how effective thatcher revolt has been at getting the battlefield to critical mass at low cost. It's definitely still questionable, but few cards offer the same number of creatures at this cost. It's definitely no heat shimmer, but it plays very similarly when you're starting that final turn.
I've tried reducing the arcane count by removing the less good unearthly blizzard and strange inversion, and tried out devouring rage as an addition. I have not kept these changes because I think that the current list of lower cost arcane spells hits a good critical mass. I've fizzled out due to higher mana costs, or not been able to start going off at all either due to my hand or mana.
As the deck isn't overly reliant on a single creature type, and due to it's mana cost, mana echoes didn't make it through testing. After a couple of games where I had Pia and Kiran Nalaar or hordling outburst in hand, I found that I definitely would include it if the mana were red, but the colorless mana didn't get me off of the ground.
Definitely agree with you on Mana Echoes. I traded for a copy, thinking it would be a sure pick, but it just disappointed me almost every single time it entered the field. It's so good in theory but in practice, as you said, Zada wants colored mana, and the mana curve for the deck is low enough that extra colorless, while helpful, isn't that good.
I was wary of Siege-Gang Commander too, but his usefulness with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer ended up being enough for him to be worth the cut for me. Not to mention, he's another way for the deck to have some noncombat reach.
How is Helm of Awakening? Ruby Medallion is one of my favorite cards to draw in Zada, but I'm a bit hesistant to ramp the whole table, but that's probably worth the amount of speed a second Ruby Medallion would give the deck.
A card I've found surprisingly helpful is Spikeshot Elder. He's a cheap body early on for Zada's ability, but in the late game, he's a good source of spot removal in conjunction with a pump spell, and he's a great way to deal some damage to an opponent who you can't attack or deal damage to, for some reason. I was playing a match against someone who was preventing me from attacking, but I was still able to just go off with Zada, make a ton of tokens, cast Battle Hymn and a pump spell, and then just funnel the rest of the mana into Spikeshot Elder to take down my opponent. It shares a similar role to the Mogg Fanatic you just added, but instead of needing specific cards to work, it just needs mana, which the deck is pretty good at making when it's going off.
Firestorm is another card that I've added that lets me finish off opponents outside of combat. I'm actually not running Fiery Gambit anymore--but that's more for practical reasons, rather than than it's actual effectiveness. Flipping all those coins was just a chore, and Firestorm can kill a table at instant speed after the deck's been going off for a while. You'll generally need to target most of your field in order to deal enough damage, but that generally won't matter. It's also a wrath in a pinch, which has been useful on occasion. Although if you don't personally mind Fiery Gambit's coin flipping, or if your playgroup doesn't mind conceding to it, it isn't worth playing both, so then it's just a matter of preference.
I ran Scroll Rack for a while, and it's been in and out of the deck. It had the unfortunate problem, for me, of often only being useful when I was already winning. There aren't many ways for this deck to shuffle itself, and so that often left Scroll Rack being somewhat useless if I didn't find what I needed with it. It also sometimes allowed me to find the draw spell I was looking for, and then I just had to use it to draw all the cards I'd ditched with Scroll Rack anyways. I've been running Memory Jar in it's place, which has been extremely useful as another wheel, but I've liked it more than Reforge the Soul, which I also run, because I can just cast it whenever I want and then get a free wheel when my hand's run dry. 5 mana is steep, but I'm willing to pay it for when the deck's hand runs dry.
Definitely agree with you on Mana Echoes. I traded for a copy, thinking it would be a sure pick, but it just disappointed me almost every single time it entered the field. It's so good in theory but in practice, as you said, Zada wants colored mana, and the mana curve for the deck is low enough that extra colorless, while helpful, isn't that good.
I was wary of Siege-Gang Commander too, but his usefulness with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer ended up being enough for him to be worth the cut for me. Not to mention, he's another way for the deck to have some noncombat reach.
How is Helm of Awakening? Ruby Medallion is one of my favorite cards to draw in Zada, but I'm a bit hesistant to ramp the whole table, but that's probably worth the amount of speed a second Ruby Medallion would give the deck.
A card I've found surprisingly helpful is Spikeshot Elder. He's a cheap body early on for Zada's ability, but in the late game, he's a good source of spot removal in conjunction with a pump spell, and he's a great way to deal some damage to an opponent who you can't attack or deal damage to, for some reason. I was playing a match against someone who was preventing me from attacking, but I was still able to just go off with Zada, make a ton of tokens, cast Battle Hymn and a pump spell, and then just funnel the rest of the mana into Spikeshot Elder to take down my opponent. It shares a similar role to the Mogg Fanatic you just added, but instead of needing specific cards to work, it just needs mana, which the deck is pretty good at making when it's going off.
Firestorm is another card that I've added that lets me finish off opponents outside of combat. I'm actually not running Fiery Gambit anymore--but that's more for practical reasons, rather than than it's actual effectiveness. Flipping all those coins was just a chore, and Firestorm can kill a table at instant speed after the deck's been going off for a while. You'll generally need to target most of your field in order to deal enough damage, but that generally won't matter. It's also a wrath in a pinch, which has been useful on occasion. Although if you don't personally mind Fiery Gambit's coin flipping, or if your playgroup doesn't mind conceding to it, it isn't worth playing both, so then it's just a matter of preference.
I ran Scroll Rack for a while, and it's been in and out of the deck. It had the unfortunate problem, for me, of often only being useful when I was already winning. There aren't many ways for this deck to shuffle itself, and so that often left Scroll Rack being somewhat useless if I didn't find what I needed with it. It also sometimes allowed me to find the draw spell I was looking for, and then I just had to use it to draw all the cards I'd ditched with Scroll Rack anyways. I've been running Memory Jar in it's place, which has been extremely useful as another wheel, but I've liked it more than Reforge the Soul, which I also run, because I can just cast it whenever I want and then get a free wheel when my hand's run dry. 5 mana is steep, but I'm willing to pay it for when the deck's hand runs dry.
Helm of awakening either comes down as I'm going off, or the turn immediately prior. It can backfire, but the cost reduction is really rather key in order to keep the engine going. While it's possible to go off without either of these cards, it's so much easier when one or both are on the battlefield. I don't plan on ever taking either out.
I had looked at spikeshot elder, and I should probably find room for it. I was somewhat torn between the elder and mogg fanatic, and went with fanatic for the lower mana requirement. When everything works and we draw what we're looking for, I agree that there are no mana issues. I'll try to discuss this more later.
Firestorm, and to a lesser extent lightning storm are very interesting finishers with a significant chunk of the library in our hand. They bypass combat and deal massive damage. I would say that both are excellent options for Zada. If I wasn't holding myself to arcane, I'd be very tempted to play these cards. Fiery gambit, on the other hand is technically also an good finisher for Zada. Perhaps unfortunately for my playgroup, I haven't been playing gambit as a finisher, but as a ritual/draw spell. I won't cast unless I have 8+ creatures, and have one opponent select even or odd, then roll three dice per creature. If all three are the chosen group, I count that as a win and move on to the next. If I cast with 32+ creatures, I'll just roll two dice each and not force everyone to wait me out or concede. I effectively pre-determine what level of usage I need out of fiery gambit, and shortcut the process by declaring my decisions up front. This method makes resolving fiery gambit fast, and gets the result needed quickly enough that nobody has complained.
Scroll rack is unique in that you can choose some cards to retain in your hand. As this deck is trying to capitalize on the arcane mechanic, this means sometimes holding on to 1-2 cards in hand when digging with scroll rack. There really isn't an alternative method to achieve that level of hand sculpting in mono-red. As to re-drawing the cards, yes this can be problematic. I'm considering fetchlands to give shuffle effects, and even briefly contemplated soldier of fortune as an extreme gimmick idea. The end result is that if I intend to have arcane spells in my hand, the risk/reward isn't so much in my favor with wheel of fortune effects. While I can splice onto those spells with flashback, there is only one way to return those cards to hand, and it only recurs the least useful one. I understand that draw-sevens and other typical ways to refill your hand are good cards and when storming off in most decks they are extremely powerful. That said, I am reluctant to let go of the arcane focus and theme.
I've run out of time tonight, and will finish my thoughts especially regarding spikeshot elder sometime in the next couple days.
elixir of immortality is a surprising inclusion for some other Zada decks that have been posted, and it confused me. Then I decked myself by having too many creatures and no sacrifice outlet, with enough cards in my graveyard to have survived. It seems like a card that won't do anything, but who knows?
Pitching one of the eldrazi to a flashed back Faithless Looting (or any other discard outlet) would probably be better insurance against decking yourself since their triggered abilities and will happen anyway if they somehow make it into the graveyard. I'm inclined to think Ulamog is the better choice, since its exile effect is a catch-all piece of removal that can't be countered. The Eldrazi titans also synergize well with Strionic Resonator which can turn Kozilek's draw 4 into draw 8, Ulamog's exile one into exile two, and can give them Annihilator 8 if you attack with them.
I've noticed that a consistant theme you bring up is that the deck needs more sources of red mana. I had wondered about using Mycosynth Lattice in this deck as a type of fixer, but has dismissed the idea becasue of its 6 cost. Maybe that was a wrong move (aside from eliminating the need for red mana, its interacion with the Vandalblast in my deck could be devastating).
I had not considered cloud key, as it only impacted some subsection of my spells. Reconsidering, especially given nearly every important spell is instant/sorcery I could probably select whichever I have more of in hand. I may acquire one and cut another land to test that.
I started out with that same pile of red looting spells in my stack of 200 cards to start building. I even played faithless looting until I removed it yesterday, as the flashback was playing well into what I needed. I had found in my goldfishing and playtesting (paper list and physical playgroup so testing can be slow) that the low cost looting spells that are the mainstay of most storm lists across nearly every format of Magic are...low impact. This is to be expected, as they were designed to be low impact, not broken.
To explain, most or all of those dig 2 cards into the library. In nearly every storm deck, this is wonderful and fuels storm counts without issue. So why not run them? Zada let us cheat on card advantage and get ahead with bad spells. Why pay 1-2 mana to dig down 2 cards with when I can spend the same amount to draw 6 or more with terriblecommons? The answer is that the looting is intended to draw into said cantrips, and it is a perfectly reasonable proposition. Admiral Sultan has good looking Zada storm deck that plays most of those spells, and he would probably be more able to answer than I. That said, my take is rather straightforward. Assessing and considering the instances when the deck fell over its face, it is my opinion that I would have been better served to have 2 more creatures to radiate a cantrip to than I would have to loot 2 cards. Why do I believe this? Mana.
Like most storm lists, as we try to get the deck off of the ground, mana and cards are tight. Let's compare tormenting voice to dragon fodder. These cards have literally nothing in common but casting cost and card type. Zada turns those goblins into a repeatable draw source, which stay out to be multiplied, turned intomana, and reused in the next cantrip. Comparing the investment of 1R between the two cards, I get a larger payout by replacing all my looting with more low cost creatures and token production. It is for this reason that I continue to consider thatcher revolt playable.
Does this line of thinking help the deck dig into a cantrip without one? Absolutely not. That's where mulligans come into play and playing a certain density of each critical card role is needed. My group is testing the proposed 7-7-6-5 + scry 1 mulligan, and I have no qualms about admitting that sometimes going down to 5 has been needed, but starting with a cantrip is critical if you intend to storm that game (which need not be every game). Playing a high number of cards in each role is essential for this plan to have a hope of working.
In conclusion; the looting spells are playable, and most likely effective. However, with mulligans, patience with cantrips, and card density; it is my belief that the deck is more likely to storm out with thatcher revolt than with act on impulse (which you didn't list, but was also in my pile of considerations).
elixir of immortality is a surprising inclusion for some other Zada decks that have been posted, and it confused me. Then I decked myself by having too many creatures and no sacrifice outlet, with enough cards in my graveyard to have survived. It seems like a card that won't do anything, but who knows?
Pitching one of the eldrazi to a flashed back Faithless Looting (or any other discard outlet) would probably be better insurance against decking yourself since their triggered abilities and will happen anyway if they somehow make it into the graveyard. I'm inclined to think Ulamog is the better choice, since its exile effect is a catch-all piece of removal that can't be countered. The Eldrazi titans also synergize well with Strionic Resonator which can turn Kozilek's draw 4 into draw 8, Ulamog's exile one into exile two, and can give them Annihilator 8 if you attack with them.
I've noticed that a consistant theme you bring up is that the deck needs more sources of red mana. I had wondered about using Mycosynth Lattice in this deck as a type of fixer, but has dismissed the idea becasue of its 6 cost. Maybe that was a wrong move (aside from eliminating the need for red mana, its interacion with the Vandalblast in my deck could be devastating).
I'd never considered mycosynth lattice, not even due to mana cost, but because it didn't come up an any gatherer trawl-searches for cards. That would greatly improve emrakul's hatcher and spawning breath, to say nothing of making me reconsider mana echoes and even mana seism (which I had tested and cut due to colorless production). I may need to try that out, but as you described I am rather hesitant on casting cost. I'd say this is competing with mana geyser to get back in.
I really like the reshuffle option here, especially Kozilek. However, I just cut my only source of discard in faithless looting. Without that outlet, I almost certainly wouldn't be able to reshuffle with that trigger. Any suggestions on synergistic discard outlets? I guess I could play chandra ablaze as a discard outlet and volt charge to turn her into a past in flames that doesn't exile. That could push the mathematical upper limit of overblaze triggers to 29?!, I think. That's spicy! Back to discard outlets, Sparkspitter could turn lands in hand (or an eldrazi titan) into tokens, but does nothing when I draw it to save me and the token production is somewhat expensive on mana.
After a quick gatherer search, I couldn't find a discard outlet that I'd really consider unless I started slotting the looting spells back in, which admittedly could happen. Realistically, I should probably just use Firestorm to win by resolving some quantity of cantrips until the library is empty, then throwing my deck at everyone for damage. Unrealistically I could include Shimmer myr to flash in vedalken orrery and go off anyways, casting then flinging artifacts or mogg fanatic with cantrips on the stack.
From my own searches I came up with very little good discard outlets in red besides the looting cards you stated you're trying to avoid. The best card I found was Land's Edge since you can discard any card to it for free and it will deal 2 damage to a player if the card you pitch is a land card. It could be useful in killing an opponent if you have your entire deck in your hand and more than enough land to discard to it. Then once you're out of land, pitch an eldrazi, shuffle your graveyard back into your library and cast a cantrip to refill you hand with all those lands to pitch to land's edge all over again.
It is effectively a strange seismic assault that every player can take advantage of, but I don't think its universal activated ability should pose much of a problem, since I get the feeling that nobody else will ever want to pich a land to it. I'd however watch out for players that might have decks that can take advantage of their graveyard and might benifit from universal discard outlets.
As much as I enjoy this deck when I went to brew my own version what I kept coming back to is a Wort, the Raidmother deck with Zada hiding in the wings waiting to pounce.
The addition of Green makes the shenanigans that can be got up to that much and it will also have no problems drawing cards or finding Zada when I have something else to make him go off.
I guess I'll provide my input on the looting spells.
They're probably the worst cards in the deck, but the deck also just *really* needs to draw its cantrips and its mana rituals. Unlike other tribal or token decks, this deck can't actually do much with just a bunch of tokens alone, so finding the ways I need to 'go off' takes priority, even if it means runnning unexciting digging spells like Wild Guess and Tormenting Voice. Despite being a better card in general, Faitless Loothing is in and out of the deck, because the card disadvantage is occasioanlly crippling, and there isn't really a good way to utilize sending cards to the graveyard outside of Past in Flames. It tended to disappoint in testing, though I might want to give it another try. If I had the ability to just run more cantrips I'd do that--sadly, Zap is going to almost board wipe us most of the time--but faiing that, the looting spells suffice.
I will say, however, that I'm not doing the arcane theme personally, I'm much lighter on pump spells, and I'm way more all-in on the 'go off in a single turn or bust' angle of things so I have more space for these utility cards.
From my own searches I came up with very little good discard outlets in red besides the looting cards you stated you're trying to avoid. The best card I found was Land's Edge since you can discard any card to it for free and it will deal 2 damage to a player if the card you pitch is a land card. It could be useful in killing an opponent if you have your entire deck in your hand and more than enough land to discard to it. Then once you're out of land, pitch an eldrazi, shuffle your graveyard back into your library and cast a cantrip to refill you hand with all those lands to pitch to land's edge all over again.
It is effectively a strange seismic assault that every player can take advantage of, but I don't think its universal activated ability should pose much of a problem, since I get the feeling that nobody else will ever want to pich a land to it. I'd however watch out for players that might have decks that can take advantage of their graveyard and might benifit from universal discard outlets.
I saw land's edge and must have misread it, as I thought that it could hit creatures. I dismissed it out of hand as I was concerned that another player would attempt to disrupt me by using lands edge to shot down Zada or other creatures. That it can only target players is a serious boon here, and you are correct about the drawbacks. This makes me consider a deck more focused around draw->discard for damage, as there are a good number of effective cards for that concept.
Part of what I'm looking for is a way out of the situations I've found myself in, ie. a game loss is on the stack and I have to go off or continue going off in response. Cards like cerebral vortex at an inopportune time can be lethal, and without another way around them, we have to win with it on the stack. I'm testing firestorm in the place of unnatural blizzard (the only sorcery arcane spell) for now, and may try swapping to lightning storm to make it more difficult to counter by copying it with Zada.
I also missed that I can use scroll rack to put my hand back into my deck in any order, without drawing. This helps alleviate the issue entirely with cautious play. It also gets me excited to stack my deck just right for possibility storm, letting me double cast each arcane spell in turn before I even start to flash them back.
As much as I enjoy this deck when I went to brew my own version what I kept coming back to is a Wort, the Raidmother deck with Zada hiding in the wings waiting to pounce.
The addition of Green makes the shenanigans that can be got up to that much and it will also have no problems drawing cards or finding Zada when I have something else to make him go off.
Adding green (or most any other color) approximately doubles the number of possible cantrips that could be played, as well as offering ramp and reasonable token production. I haven't looked into how may efficient, low cost sources of multiple creatures could be played, as most green creatures/token sources I play in other decks tend to be mana intensive. Obviously this could be overcome with ramp and playing to green's strong suite.
The other gain in adding any color would be a larger selection of arcane. Kodama's Might plays a lot more into our interests than strange inversion. I realize that not everyone is interested in the full arcane suite of spells, but if green were added, you could copy/splice with kodama's reach(!), roar of Jukai(free pump spell) or inner calm, outer strength(huge pump) in the mix, and that just sounds wonderful. Going multicolored with arcane spells would need some sort of color fixing to go off with desperate ritual, and I think DarkingScribe's suggestion of mycosynth lattice would do well there.
Honestly, I'd suggest boros as an alternative way to play Zada. This opens a large number of indestructibilityoptions for an arcbond build and white has the largest number of reasonably good cantrip options. Synergizing heal with zap would be great. There's just the glaring issue of finding Zada in a RW deck.
Soulbright Flamekin is a creature and a potentially ramping source of color fixing without even mentioning being a source of trample. I'd be a lot more tempted if I was still running sources of colorless mana that weren't eldrazi spawn. As the deck currently stands, it would take 6 to get 8xR, which would be a oneshot effect per turn. That's not that efficient when compared to most of our other rituals. I've tried out infernal plunge, generator servant, rite of flame, seething song, dragonrage, and simian spirit guide. Out of all these, including the flamekin, I'd say that simian guide and maybe infernal plunge could be good. The emphasis on lowering upfront costs comes into play rather significantly here.
I guess I'll provide my input on the looting spells.
They're probably the worst cards in the deck, but the deck also just *really* needs to draw its cantrips and its mana rituals. Unlike other tribal or token decks, this deck can't actually do much with just a bunch of tokens alone, so finding the ways I need to 'go off' takes priority, even if it means runnning unexciting digging spells like Wild Guess and Tormenting Voice. Despite being a better card in general, Faitless Loothing is in and out of the deck, because the card disadvantage is occasionally crippling, and there isn't really a good way to utilize sending cards to the graveyard outside of Past in Flames. It tended to disappoint in testing, though I might want to give it another try. If I had the ability to just run more cantrips I'd do that--sadly, Zap is going to almost board wipe us most of the time--but faiing that, the looting spells suffice.
I will say, however, that I'm not doing the arcane theme personally, I'm much lighter on pump spells, and I'm way more all-in on the 'go off in a single turn or bust' angle of things so I have more space for these utility cards.
I really appreciate your input as a fellow Zada player, thanks for sharing. The looting spells would help dig into the real meat of the deck, when we get stuck in without cantrips in hand. It has seemed to be that I can keep a weaker looking hand with a couple lands and a cantrip and be more likely to storm than a great hand without one. I play twice as many creatures as I do cantrips, and that's significant. I have intended to make an excel calculator for draw probabilities of various card types, but as of now I don't have the math to back up my assumptions. How many cards do you typically have in hand when you cast one of these looting cards? Is it setting up a storm turn or during it? Sorry to keep asking you questions. I'll take it to your thread if you prefer.
To increase the breadth of cards we can see, I played larger looting spells at one point. I've considered incendiary command and shattered perception to allow a cantrip that missed finding the next cantrip cycle further into my deck. I decided that those cards cost too much mana and didn't like discarding arcane spells. A general theme is that I've been able to get away with a huge amount of card disadvantage (rituals, lackluster spells in general) by leveraging the raw draw power of cantrips. Cantrips are what make Zada work in nearly every build, and I do mulligan away most starting hands that don't have a cantrip.
As to zap and flare, I must admit that I've not tested these outside of theorizing. That said, if we played a higher density of pump spells that increase toughness such as brute force, fit of rage or titan's strength, these may be worthwhile. Alternatively, if the main gameplan were arcbond, then creatures are probably going to survive anyway.
The slate fills the same role as the cantrips. Slate of Ancestry is a huge investment to draw the same number of cards as stun as long as Zada is out. If zada is not out, slate isn't a bad way to refill but has very high cost and is slow. I hadn't considered it up to this point.
I really appreciate your input as a fellow Zada player, thanks for sharing. The looting spells would help dig into the real meat of the deck, when we get stuck in without cantrips in hand. It has seemed to be that I can keep a weaker looking hand with a couple lands and a cantrip and be more likely to storm than a great hand without one. I play twice as many creatures as I do cantrips, and that's significant. I have intended to make an excel calculator for draw probabilities of various card types, but as of now I don't have the math to back up my assumptions. How many cards do you typically have in hand when you cast one of these looting cards? Is it setting up a storm turn or during it? Sorry to keep asking you questions. I'll take it to your thread if you prefer.
To increase the breadth of cards we can see, I played larger looting spells at one point. I've considered incendiary command and shattered perception to allow a cantrip that missed finding the next cantrip cycle further into my deck. I decided that those cards cost too much mana and didn't like discarding arcane spells. A general theme is that I've been able to get away with a huge amount of card disadvantage (rituals, lackluster spells in general) by leveraging the raw draw power of cantrips. Cantrips are what make Zada work in nearly every build, and I do mulligan away most starting hands that don't have a cantrip.
As to zap and flare, I must admit that I've not tested these outside of theorizing. That said, if we played a higher density of pump spells that increase toughness such as brute force, fit of rage or titan's strength, these may be worthwhile. Alternatively, if the main gameplan were arcbond, then creatures are probably going to survive anyway.
I tend to use them to set up a storm turn, but they are occasionally useful for digging deeper during one. Sometimes I have a lot of mana and just need to find another cantrip, so they're useful for that. As for how many cards I have in my hand, it varies. I don't really wait to cast these, so I tend to just cast them whenever I have nothing else to do. If I can play a creature instead I do that, because I might still topdeck what I need, but otherwise they just get cast when I can. Also, I don't mind discussing it here, this thread is much more active, and this subject is relevant to any kind of Zada deck.
In my testing, while I can generally mull into/draw a cantrip and get going, the games where I can't, the deck just does stone cold nothing, and I'm trying to avoid the number of games that happens. I play 3 Wheel effects already--Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, and Memory Jar--and those help me for when I either run out of cards or simply don't need what I have, but the small looting effects are nice for when you do have something you need---maybe you have a ritual spell but no cantrips--and you just need to dig a little more without giving up everything. I considered Incendiary Command and Shattered Perception as well, and discarded them for the same reasons you brought up.
My deck plays very, very few pump spells--I think right now it's literally just Reckless Charge and Blazing Shoal--so Zap and Flare are even worse in my deck than they are in other Zada decks, but I'll admit I've never actually tested them. They at least won't kill Zada, which is nice, but it feels wrong to destroy my field just to draw more cards that will need me to rebuild my field before I can use them well. I'm not a huge fan of the Arcbond plan, because it requires a specific card to do anything at all in the deck,
It's nice having someone to bounce ideas and testing off of. If you end up making that excel calculator, I'd love to see your results. Zada seems to be all about the proper ratios of card types, and tuning the deck is mostly just figuring those out. So far, I've been finding that cutting pump spells helps the deck, because since we're going with the storm angle and trying to draw a ton of cards in one turn, we don't really need to cast that many pump spells. Half the time, I don't even win with combat at all. When I do I just tend to cast Twinflame effects a couple times courtesy of Past in Flames and attack my opponents for crazy amounts of damage, and then just use a single pump spell. Cutting pump spells gives me the room to add the looting spells, as well as some powerful protection cards in Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Defense Grid, which can make stopping me difficult.
Also, I added Helm of Awakening after you praised it, and I can't believe I ever doubted the card. Ramping my opponents is insiginificant compared to the benefits it gives this deck, wow. How is Priest of Urabrask testing? At first I thought it seemed kind of 'meh' because it's just a 'free' creature, but it does have great synergy with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer. I'll probably test it in one of my flex slots.
I really appreciate your input as a fellow Zada player, thanks for sharing. The looting spells would help dig into the real meat of the deck, when we get stuck in without cantrips in hand. It has seemed to be that I can keep a weaker looking hand with a couple lands and a cantrip and be more likely to storm than a great hand without one. I play twice as many creatures as I do cantrips, and that's significant. I have intended to make an excel calculator for draw probabilities of various card types, but as of now I don't have the math to back up my assumptions. How many cards do you typically have in hand when you cast one of these looting cards? Is it setting up a storm turn or during it? Sorry to keep asking you questions. I'll take it to your thread if you prefer.
To increase the breadth of cards we can see, I played larger looting spells at one point. I've considered incendiary command and shattered perception to allow a cantrip that missed finding the next cantrip cycle further into my deck. I decided that those cards cost too much mana and didn't like discarding arcane spells. A general theme is that I've been able to get away with a huge amount of card disadvantage (rituals, lackluster spells in general) by leveraging the raw draw power of cantrips. Cantrips are what make Zada work in nearly every build, and I do mulligan away most starting hands that don't have a cantrip.
As to zap and flare, I must admit that I've not tested these outside of theorizing. That said, if we played a higher density of pump spells that increase toughness such as brute force, fit of rage or titan's strength, these may be worthwhile. Alternatively, if the main gameplan were arcbond, then creatures are probably going to survive anyway.
I tend to use them to set up a storm turn, but they are occasionally useful for digging deeper during one. Sometimes I have a lot of mana and just need to find another cantrip, so they're useful for that. As for how many cards I have in my hand, it varies. I don't really wait to cast these, so I tend to just cast them whenever I have nothing else to do. If I can play a creature instead I do that, because I might still topdeck what I need, but otherwise they just get cast when I can. Also, I don't mind discussing it here, this thread is much more active, and this subject is relevant to any kind of Zada deck.
In my testing, while I can generally mull into/draw a cantrip and get going, the games where I can't, the deck just does stone cold nothing, and I'm trying to avoid the number of games that happens. I play 3 Wheel effects already--Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, and Memory Jar--and those help me for when I either run out of cards or simply don't need what I have, but the small looting effects are nice for when you do have something you need---maybe you have a ritual spell but no cantrips--and you just need to dig a little more without giving up everything. I considered Incendiary Command and Shattered Perception as well, and discarded them for the same reasons you brought up.
My deck plays very, very few pump spells--I think right now it's literally just Reckless Charge and Blazing Shoal--so Zap and Flare are even worse in my deck than they are in other Zada decks, but I'll admit I've never actually tested them. They at least won't kill Zada, which is nice, but it feels wrong to destroy my field just to draw more cards that will need me to rebuild my field before I can use them well. I'm not a huge fan of the Arcbond plan, because it requires a specific card to do anything at all in the deck,
It's nice having someone to bounce ideas and testing off of. If you end up making that excel calculator, I'd love to see your results. Zada seems to be all about the proper ratios of card types, and tuning the deck is mostly just figuring those out. So far, I've been finding that cutting pump spells helps the deck, because since we're going with the storm angle and trying to draw a ton of cards in one turn, we don't really need to cast that many pump spells. Half the time, I don't even win with combat at all. When I do I just tend to cast Twinflame effects a couple times courtesy of Past in Flames and attack my opponents for crazy amounts of damage, and then just use a single pump spell. Cutting pump spells gives me the room to add the looting spells, as well as some powerful protection cards in Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Defense Grid, which can make stopping me difficult.
Also, I added Helm of Awakening after you praised it, and I can't believe I ever doubted the card. Ramping my opponents is insiginificant compared to the benefits it gives this deck, wow. How is Priest of Urabrask testing? At first I thought it seemed kind of 'meh' because it's just a 'free' creature, but it does have great synergy with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer. I'll probably test it in one of my flex slots.
You're definitely playing a more all-in storm approach. If I ever cast a single cantrip, the odds are rather good that I can take out a player unless I topdeck 7 lands. I still play 9 pump spells, and any combination of 2 of these or overblaze can deal 40+ damage with an average board state. If I can't take out everyone, I'll take out my biggest threat. The best situation for this to occur is when the fresh cantrip that I drew won't supply cards until the next upkeep. That said, even if I'm left topdecking for a cantrip I've gotten some breathing room.
I don't really have the open slots for hate/protection. As you said, the deck's all about ratios and card densities. I order to consistently achieve an effect, we have to play a lot of cards that fit that role. If you're able to throw down enough creatures that they're lethal on their own, then cutting back the density of spells that boost power is probably rather effective. For me, having two paths to victory (full out storm/regular zada pump) has shored up my weaknesses, or seemed to. As to playing pump spells, titan's strength really is effective at also setting you up to draw something useful. I usually use it to scry away until I hit another cantrip or (in my case) a good arcane spell.
Our conversation has made me want to try out zap and flare if I can find good replacements for fatal frenzy and other spells that would also boost toughness. If I can play any one of the pump spells to turn on zap/flare, then their effectiveness may rise enough to be worth considering. Without at least 8 spells in that role though, I'd be hard pressed to try those options. I will probably never try Telim'Tor's Edict.
Priest of Urabrask is the sole remnant of a time when I tried the 0-cost creatures. The priest remained because of the ritual effect if there is a cost-reducer out and having twinflame ramp. I'm rather satisfied with its effect. If there were more creatures that did this, I would consider them. "Free" creatures are not to be underestimated here. I wouldn't recommend actual free creatures, as ornithoper and phyrexian walker were very lackluster.
I've completed the preliminary version of the probability calculator for Zada. It's a google drive spreadsheet located here. It is based on deck construction, so I recommend copying it to your open documents to edit the decklist. Once the decklist sheet is filled out, the second sheet will calculate the odds of successfully drawing the needed card category, either by cantrip or by other draw source (looting). Input cells have borders around them. Most outputs are odds of drawing at least 1 of the desired category.
I intend to make use of the average CMC of spells, specifically rituals and additional sources of creatures. I have the inputs present, but not the math to suggest how much mana to leave up when refilling your hand.
The implications of this calculator are that we break a 50% probability of casting a cantrip and drawing into another cantrip once we have 4 creatures and Zada on the battlefield, which is a rather typical board state. In the same situation, casting a looting spell has a 25% chance of drawing into a cantrip. I'll admit that those odds push me towards the reconsideration of looting spells, but as alluded to by Admiral Sultan I'm currently packing the slots for those cards with my arcane spells.
As the creature count increases, we see the next odds of of a cantrip (with my list) as follows:
30% odds = 2 other creatures
40% odds = 3 other creatures
50% odds = 4 other creatures
60% odds = 6 other creatures
70% odds = 8 other creatures
80% odds = 10 other creatures
Depending on how lucky you feel or critical it is to go off immediately, these are approximately the numbers to keep in mind.
These numbers really show why I think that thatcher revolt and similar spells are playable here. 2R to increase storm probability by 15% that turn? I'll pay that cost.
In a similar vein, I'm currently considering devastating summons (x=1), elemental mastery...maybe, and pact of the titan as cards with higher creature/cost ratios. Anyone have thoughts on these or similar? I almost wish I was able to play a high artifact count because no cards comes close to the count/cost ratio of kuldotha rebirth.
Regarding prior thoughts on zap and flare, there are not enough spells (much less good/low cost spells) in red that increase toughness. Unless more of these spells are printed, the deck changes to include anthem permanents such as caged sun or gauntlet of power/might, then I don't forsee these spells being worthwhile to cast.
I've not had as much time to work with this deck recently, due to work.
The other truly funny thing about Zada in Boros, is that a Path to Exile and the natural Boros ability to make creatures turns into a hilarious one time massive ramp spell.
If you wanted to play probably the dumbest thing you could do in Mono red is Kormus BellUrborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to increase the number of targets for a
bunch of spells through the roof. Has hilarious consequences to some of the spells but what is red without a little risk.
Kormus Bell + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth was something I was seriously considering. However, with all your lands essentially 1/1, so many spells will leave you landless that my eyes spin. Even an overloard Electrickery will clear your field clean of land.
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As it may sound, this deck will be playing commons that have not seem the light of day since one of the most notoriously de-powered sets rotated out of standard. I am aware that this is perhaps the most fragile glass cannon that could be built, and I hope you agree with me that it is hilarious. I am trying to make this deck as powerful/consistent as is reasonable possible without deviating from the tag line, so please suggest anything that comes to mind. Yes, I did just ask for consistency in mono-red.
The deck is built to utilize Zada, Hedron Grinder to radiate cantrip spells such as crimson wisps and chaotic strike, then leverage those into a higher storm count and mana with rituals like inner fire and/or battle hymn with the eventual goal of targeting Zada with multiple instances of arcane spells with overblaze and desperate ritual spliced in to overwhelm your opponents.
Like other Zada decks, we will be playing a large number of targeting pump spells, such as downhill charge, rouse the mob, and temur battle rage. Unlike other Zada decks, I don't want to settle for mere overkill. I want to cast path of anger's flame and other arcane spells with overblaze spliced into it as many times as possible. Side Note: current cap in testing has been 15 instances of overblaze and my personal damage record in game is 320 trillion.
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Artifacts
1 chrome mox
1 ruby medallion
1 helm of awakening
1 mana crypt
1 mox amber
1 phyrexian altar
1 scroll rack
1 sol ring
Creatures
1 mogg fanatic
1 skirk prospector
1 mogg war marshal
1 young pyromancer
1 priest of urabrask
1 krenko, mob boss
1 beetleback chief
1 pia and kiran nalaar
1 treasonous ogre
1 thopter engineer
1 spikeshot elder
1 siege-gang commander
1 goblin dark dwellers
1 goblin instigator
1 runaway steam-kin
1 imperial recruiter
1 blazing shoal
1 desperate ritual
1 into the fray
1 overblaze
1 path of anger's flame
1 unnatural speed
1 crimson wisps
1 chaotic strike
1 stun
1 boiling blood
1 accelerate
1 spawning breath
1 battle hymn
1 brightstone ritual
1 titan's strength
1 brute force
1 fatal frenzy
1 firestorm
1 expedite
1 rush of adrenaline
1 brute strength
Sorceries
1 fiery gambit
1 dragon fodder
1 mogg alarm
1 hordeling outburst
1 empty the warrens
1 krenko's command
1 devastating summons
1 twinflame
1 heat shimmer
1 molten birth
1 gamble
1 past in flames
1 mizzix's mastery
1 inner fire
1 kari zev's expertise
1 renegade tactics
1 distemper the blood
1 make mischief
1 rile
1 maximize velocity
1 reality scramble
33 mountain
1 Nykthos, shrine to nyx
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Ramp/Ritual
1 ruby medallion
1 helm of awakening
1 sol ring
1 skirk prospector
1 priest of urabrask
1 desperate ritual
1 battle hymn
1 fiery gambit
1 inner fire
1 brightstone ritual
1 treasonous ogre
1 chrome mox
1 mana crypt
1 mox amber
1 phyrexian altar
1 runaway steam-kin
1 kari zev's expertise
Cantrips and Hand Sculpting
1 scroll rack
1 crimson wisps
1 chaotic strike
1 stun
1 boiling blood
1 accelerate
1 titan's strength
1 fiery gambit
1 rile
1 renegade tactics
1 expedite
1 mogg war marshal
1 young pyromancer
1 thopter engineer
1 krenko, mob boss
1 beetleback chief
1 pia and kiran nalaar
1 spawning breath
1 dragon fodder
1 mogg alarm
1 hordeling outburst
1 empty the warrens
1 krenko's command
1 devastating summons
1 goblin instigator
1 twinflame
1 heat shimmer
1 molten birth
1 spikeshot elder
1 siege-gang commander
1 mogg fanatic
1 make mischief
1 goblin dark-dwellers
1 imperial recruiter
Arcane (6)
1 desperate ritual
1 blazing shoal
1 into the fray
1 overblaze
1 path of anger's flame
1 unnatural speed
1 brute force
1 fatal frenzy
1 maximize velocity
1 distemper the blood
1 brute strength
1 rush of adrenaline
1 distemper the blood
1 otherworldly outburst
Assorted Awesome (4)
1 past in flames
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 gamble
1 firestorm
Lands (34)
33 mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
goblinslidethe most effective token generating permanents this deck has to offer. These are especially effective when properly stacking the triggers to generate the tokens before Zada's trigger resolves. Pyromancer in particular quickly gets out of hand once twinflame has been cast a couple of times.Notable Current Exclusions:
No ramp?The cost reducing artifacts typically cover the grand majority of the colorless requirements. Colorless mana is nowhere near enough to keep the engines running, if you're looking to accelerate this deck look for sources of [mana]r/mana]. I added this exclusively to ramp out Zada sooner. It's usually dead weight if already going off. I may swap it back to a mountain. Definitely not required, but the sol ring -> cost reduction into turn 2 Zada + pyromancer hands tempted me with higher frequency.EDIT: I've rebalanced some of my cantrip suite recently and took out the least useful arcane carrier. The changes improved consistency, but sacrificed some of the instant speed flexibility. This means that a higher premium should be kept on the remaining instant speed options, in order to continue going off around disruption.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Some general things I'd suggest looking into-
Dualcaster Mage goes infinite with Heat Shimmer and Twinflame, but it's also just a good card in general with the deck. Copying rituals is pretty important sometimes, and he can be cast in response to counterspells to save you from them.
If you want more ritual effects, Treasonous Ogre and Koth of the Hammer are really good in Zada. Koth can +1 to give you a little more mana as well as another body on the field for Zada's effects, and I'm often content to just play him and -2 him to cast Zada, but he can also -2 to give you a nice burst of mana. Treasonous Ogre is insane, and is a ritual that adds a body to boot. Sometimes you find yourself just needing one or two more mana while you're going off, and he can provide that. In some testing games I've played, I've even just sunk 30 life into him for 10 mana to finish off a game quickly.
I didn't really like Thatcher's Revolt much. The tokens disappear after a turn, so it's useless as a turn 3 play, and is only good if you're casting it *and* a pump spell in the same turn, which is kind of awkward. I'd suggest replacing it with Goblin Rabblemaster, as it produces a body a turn, and can also attack for quite a lot.
One thing I've had to be cautious about is that Zada decks have a hidden cost to them--even though our mana curve appears really low, we're playing a huge amount of spells that do nothing significant without Zada on the field, so a lot of our spells have the hidden additional cost of "you can only cast this after turn 4". So if we play too many of those cards, we're going to have games where our hands are chock full of cards that don't do anything until much later in the game. Since I've started testing my deck, I've significantly decreased the number of pump spells I originally ran, as they got stuck in my hand too often. The deck is capable of drawing truly insane amounts of cards, so it's not hard to find some when you're going off, and you generally only need one or two to close out a game--Balduvian Rage and Blazing Shoal being the best ones for this.
Zada is a ton of fun, and I'm glad to see other people taking the deck in a more storm-like direction.
Admiral Sultan, you are completely right about spells that only work with Zada out. I've also removed some of the targeted pump spells, tending to keep lower cost and/or toughness and ability options.
I'd tried out treasonous ogre, but with no life gain it could only net 13 mana. I do like that the ogre is a creature. I'm trying out mana geyser in that slot right now, as casting it turn 4-5 has net similar amount of mana, and it has more synergies with flashback. I'll probably swap back after testing.
Koth of the Hammer is a card I'd never considered, and that's pretty awesome. Mana generation with either ability and animating a land for improved radiate is sweet. I may try him as a lower curve option to the aforementioned ogre and geyser.
dualcaster mage should have been a notable exception, I'll append it into that section shortly. You make a good point about copying rituals. If I could get more uses out of inner fire, that would be great. I may try out increasing vengeance as a placeholder for the mage.
Thatcher revolt is...bad, I agree. However, it's proven both lethal and efficient in those final bursts. Due to the density of card draw in the deck, I was more willing to try it along with tempt with vengeance as one-shot effects for more tokens. While nowhere near as effective as heat shimmer and twinflame, you have to have a starting critical mass of creatures to work, and the revolt seems to get the job done. In contrast, goblin rabblemaster won't make three creatures until your next turn's combat. Given the mostly one-shot nature of the deck I was perhaps overvaluing more efficient token sources.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Ally Encampment could be used as an emergency bounce spell to protect Zada, in the same way a lot of decks use High Market rather than let some targeted spell or theft effect nerf their commander.
Legion Loyalist and Firemantle Mage might also be worth testing as redundancies that give your whole team different types of evasion and Chasm Guide will give your team haste, but I am less sure about that card than the evation ones. I get the feeling that when Oath of the Gatewatch is spoiled, there might be more Ally support in red that is worth looking at. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of temporary elemental creature token effect like Akoum Stonewaker attached to a rally trigger rather than a Landfall trigger which could make other allys more playable.
By the way, how many tokens do you find yourself throwing on the battlefield? Are there enough to make Purphoros, God of the Forge and Impact Tremors matter?
Akroan Crusader fills two roles. First, it's a cheap creature. Second, it's a backup token source. In the unlikely but possible event that no other token sources are drawn, I'm will to blow pump spells early to make tokens. The deck can and will fall flat without sufficient creatures in play. I'm willing to waste a non-cantripping pump spell to get an extra creature. This same play has also worked with young pyromancer. I mention cheap creatures because the best case scenario, the turn you untap with Zada is the turn you win. Due to the aforementioned requisite creature density for the deck to function, I want creatures out when I start triggering Zada. This drove me toward cheaper creatures, which happened to have synergies with storm.
Siege-gang commander would be my fourth 5-cost spell, which happens to be the top of my curve. It does have better interactions with skirk prospector and brightstone ritual, and sticks around better than pia and kiran nalaar with twinflame. I should make this swap, despite the mana-cost increase.
mana echoes would be a great source of extra colorless mana. You are correct that it is otherwise difficult to find large amounts of colorless for splicing spells. I've been using R, but a good colorless source like this could work well, as well as turning tempt with vengeance into awesome ritual (pay XR, get X squared mana)
Of the suggested creatures that provide evasion, I like legion loyalist the most, again mostly due to mana cost. Ideally, we have 2-3 creatures out when Zada is cast, and the low cost creatures help make sure we get to that point. As to the other creatures, they're a bit too high cost for me. I'd rather play a cheaper spell for my evasion, such as rouse the mob and fatal frenzy. Traitorous blood could be good here too, and worst case would grab a creature to radiate more.
My typical finish has been to start with Zada and a reasonable number of creatures, 3-7, depending on what they are and what's in hand. I'm somewhat hesitant to go for it with nothing but 3 goblin tokens, but if my hand has twinflame, brightstone ritual and a cantrip, that should set me up with 7 creatures, 7 more cards, and 5-6 mana floating. If I draw well, great I can keep going. Otherwise, I'll drop whatever creatures/token spells and setup for a better following turn.
A better start would be something including more creatures, obviously. Best case is young pyromancer followed by hordling outburst turn three, which set us up for 6-7 creatures turn 5 (counting the first one created that turn by the pyromancer). In this situation, I would still start with the twinflame/heat shimmer, to start doubling up on pyromancer triggers early.
Once we're committed, it usually goes play more creatures -> ramp/ritual -> draw more cards -> repeat. Purphoros, God of the Forge and Impact Tremors would reduce lifetotals before the final turn, but I'm not sure by how much. I could see triggering tremors 4-12 times before I was sure that I could be lethal through other means. Purphoros, costing twice as much, would likely see 2-8 triggers before getting to the same point. Both of these are appreciable amounts of damage, but I'm not sure if I'd want to slot them into a storm list unless I was worried about combat prevention.
haze of rage was in my original list and got swapped for targeted pump spells. It is a bit disengenous to claim a storm deck with only one storm spell (that I don't even treat as my win-condition, it's just tokens). I may slot it back in in the future.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Artifacts (4)
1 ruby medallion
1 helm of awakening
1 strionic resonator
1 scroll rack
Creatures (11)
1 akroan crusader
1 skirk prospector
1 mogg war marshal
1 young pyromancer
1 thopter engineer
1 priest of urabrask
1 skyfire kirin
1 krenko, mob boss
1 beetleback chief
1 pia and kiran nalaar
1 emrakul's hatcher
Enchantments (2)
1 goblinslide
1 possibility storm
Instants (26)
1 blazing shoal
1 desperate ritual
1 into the fray
1 overblaze
1 path of anger's flame
1 unnatural speed
1 strange inversion
1 crimson wisps
1 balduvian rage
1 chaotic strike
1 aleatory
1 stun
1 panic
1 boiling blood
1 accelerate
1 spawning breath
1 battle hymn
1 downhill charge
1 rouse the mob
1 brightstone ritual
1 temur battle rage
1 titan's strength
1 brute force
1 fatal frenzy
1 fists of the anvil
1 unearthly blizzard
1 faithless looting
1 fiery gambit
1 dragon fodder
1 mogg alarm
1 hordeling outburst
1 goblin rally
1 empty the warrens
1 krenko's command
1 thatcher revolt
1 tempt with vengeance
1 twinflame
1 heat shimmer
1 molten birth
1 fit of rage
1 reckless charge
1 past in flames
1 recoup
1 mana geyser
1 inner fire
Lands (37)
37 mountain
1 kher keep
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Ramp/Ritual (9.5)
1 ruby medallion
1 helm of awakening
1 skirk prospector
1 priest of urabrask
1 desperate ritual
1 battle hymn
1 fiery gambit
1 mana geyser
1 inner fire
1 brightstone ritual
Zada Trigger Abuse (2)
1 strionic resonator
1 possibility storm
Cantrips and Hand Sculpting(11.5)
1 scroll rack
1 crimson wisps
1 balduvian rage
1 chaotic strike
1 aleatory
1 stun
1 panic
1 boiling blood
1 accelerate
1 titan's strength
1 faithless looting
1 fiery gambit
1 akroan crusader
1 mogg war marshal
1 young pyromancer
1 thopter engineer
1 skyfire kirin
1 krenko, mob boss
1 beetleback chief
1 pia and kiran nalaar
1 emrakul's hatcher
1 goblinslide
1 spawning breath
1 dragon fodder
1 mogg alarm
1 hordeling outburst
1 goblin rally
1 empty the warrens
1 krenko's command
1 thatcher revolt
1 tempt with vengeance
1 twinflame
1 heat shimmer
1 molten birth
1 desperate ritual
1 blazing shoal
1 into the fray
1 overblaze
1 path of anger's flame
1 unnatural speed
1 strange inversion
1 unearthly blizzard
Pump Spells (8)
1 downhill charge
1 rouse the mob
1 temur battle rage
1 brute force
1 fatal frenzy
1 fists of the anvil
1 fit of rage
1 reckless charge
Poor Man's Yawgmoths Will (2)
1 past in flames
1 recoup
Lands (37)
36 mountain
1 kher keep
Removed:
Added:
Current Considerations:
I am surprised at how effective thatcher revolt has been at getting the battlefield to critical mass at low cost. It's definitely still questionable, but few cards offer the same number of creatures at this cost. It's definitely no heat shimmer, but it plays very similarly when you're starting that final turn.
I've tried reducing the arcane count by removing the less good unearthly blizzard and strange inversion, and tried out devouring rage as an addition. I have not kept these changes because I think that the current list of lower cost arcane spells hits a good critical mass. I've fizzled out due to higher mana costs, or not been able to start going off at all either due to my hand or mana.
As the deck isn't overly reliant on a single creature type, and due to it's mana cost, mana echoes didn't make it through testing. After a couple of games where I had Pia and Kiran Nalaar or hordling outburst in hand, I found that I definitely would include it if the mana were red, but the colorless mana didn't get me off of the ground.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I was wary of Siege-Gang Commander too, but his usefulness with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer ended up being enough for him to be worth the cut for me. Not to mention, he's another way for the deck to have some noncombat reach.
How is Helm of Awakening? Ruby Medallion is one of my favorite cards to draw in Zada, but I'm a bit hesistant to ramp the whole table, but that's probably worth the amount of speed a second Ruby Medallion would give the deck.
A card I've found surprisingly helpful is Spikeshot Elder. He's a cheap body early on for Zada's ability, but in the late game, he's a good source of spot removal in conjunction with a pump spell, and he's a great way to deal some damage to an opponent who you can't attack or deal damage to, for some reason. I was playing a match against someone who was preventing me from attacking, but I was still able to just go off with Zada, make a ton of tokens, cast Battle Hymn and a pump spell, and then just funnel the rest of the mana into Spikeshot Elder to take down my opponent. It shares a similar role to the Mogg Fanatic you just added, but instead of needing specific cards to work, it just needs mana, which the deck is pretty good at making when it's going off.
Firestorm is another card that I've added that lets me finish off opponents outside of combat. I'm actually not running Fiery Gambit anymore--but that's more for practical reasons, rather than than it's actual effectiveness. Flipping all those coins was just a chore, and Firestorm can kill a table at instant speed after the deck's been going off for a while. You'll generally need to target most of your field in order to deal enough damage, but that generally won't matter. It's also a wrath in a pinch, which has been useful on occasion. Although if you don't personally mind Fiery Gambit's coin flipping, or if your playgroup doesn't mind conceding to it, it isn't worth playing both, so then it's just a matter of preference.
I ran Scroll Rack for a while, and it's been in and out of the deck. It had the unfortunate problem, for me, of often only being useful when I was already winning. There aren't many ways for this deck to shuffle itself, and so that often left Scroll Rack being somewhat useless if I didn't find what I needed with it. It also sometimes allowed me to find the draw spell I was looking for, and then I just had to use it to draw all the cards I'd ditched with Scroll Rack anyways. I've been running Memory Jar in it's place, which has been extremely useful as another wheel, but I've liked it more than Reforge the Soul, which I also run, because I can just cast it whenever I want and then get a free wheel when my hand's run dry. 5 mana is steep, but I'm willing to pay it for when the deck's hand runs dry.
Helm of awakening either comes down as I'm going off, or the turn immediately prior. It can backfire, but the cost reduction is really rather key in order to keep the engine going. While it's possible to go off without either of these cards, it's so much easier when one or both are on the battlefield. I don't plan on ever taking either out.
I had looked at spikeshot elder, and I should probably find room for it. I was somewhat torn between the elder and mogg fanatic, and went with fanatic for the lower mana requirement. When everything works and we draw what we're looking for, I agree that there are no mana issues. I'll try to discuss this more later.
Firestorm, and to a lesser extent lightning storm are very interesting finishers with a significant chunk of the library in our hand. They bypass combat and deal massive damage. I would say that both are excellent options for Zada. If I wasn't holding myself to arcane, I'd be very tempted to play these cards. Fiery gambit, on the other hand is technically also an good finisher for Zada. Perhaps unfortunately for my playgroup, I haven't been playing gambit as a finisher, but as a ritual/draw spell. I won't cast unless I have 8+ creatures, and have one opponent select even or odd, then roll three dice per creature. If all three are the chosen group, I count that as a win and move on to the next. If I cast with 32+ creatures, I'll just roll two dice each and not force everyone to wait me out or concede. I effectively pre-determine what level of usage I need out of fiery gambit, and shortcut the process by declaring my decisions up front. This method makes resolving fiery gambit fast, and gets the result needed quickly enough that nobody has complained.
Scroll rack is unique in that you can choose some cards to retain in your hand. As this deck is trying to capitalize on the arcane mechanic, this means sometimes holding on to 1-2 cards in hand when digging with scroll rack. There really isn't an alternative method to achieve that level of hand sculpting in mono-red. As to re-drawing the cards, yes this can be problematic. I'm considering fetchlands to give shuffle effects, and even briefly contemplated soldier of fortune as an extreme gimmick idea. The end result is that if I intend to have arcane spells in my hand, the risk/reward isn't so much in my favor with wheel of fortune effects. While I can splice onto those spells with flashback, there is only one way to return those cards to hand, and it only recurs the least useful one. I understand that draw-sevens and other typical ways to refill your hand are good cards and when storming off in most decks they are extremely powerful. That said, I am reluctant to let go of the arcane focus and theme.
I've run out of time tonight, and will finish my thoughts especially regarding spikeshot elder sometime in the next couple days.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Wouldn't rather than Wheels instead use the looting ensemble that red has now Faithless Looting Tormenting Voice Magmatic Insight maybe even Commune with Lava or even Cloud Key for a less beneficial to opponents helm.
Surprised at lack of Past in Flames the ultimate red ace in the hole for spell combos.
Perhaps Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre would work better if you have a discard outlet?
Pitching one of the eldrazi to a flashed back Faithless Looting (or any other discard outlet) would probably be better insurance against decking yourself since their triggered abilities and will happen anyway if they somehow make it into the graveyard. I'm inclined to think Ulamog is the better choice, since its exile effect is a catch-all piece of removal that can't be countered. The Eldrazi titans also synergize well with Strionic Resonator which can turn Kozilek's draw 4 into draw 8, Ulamog's exile one into exile two, and can give them Annihilator 8 if you attack with them.
I've noticed that a consistant theme you bring up is that the deck needs more sources of red mana. I had wondered about using Mycosynth Lattice in this deck as a type of fixer, but has dismissed the idea becasue of its 6 cost. Maybe that was a wrong move (aside from eliminating the need for red mana, its interacion with the Vandalblast in my deck could be devastating).
Past in flames is a very easy one to answer; it's already included and definitely is a huge powerhouse. We can't play yawgmoth's will or vampiric tutor, but we can get close with past in flames and gamble!
I had not considered cloud key, as it only impacted some subsection of my spells. Reconsidering, especially given nearly every important spell is instant/sorcery I could probably select whichever I have more of in hand. I may acquire one and cut another land to test that.
I started out with that same pile of red looting spells in my stack of 200 cards to start building. I even played faithless looting until I removed it yesterday, as the flashback was playing well into what I needed. I had found in my goldfishing and playtesting (paper list and physical playgroup so testing can be slow) that the low cost looting spells that are the mainstay of most storm lists across nearly every format of Magic are...low impact. This is to be expected, as they were designed to be low impact, not broken.
To explain, most or all of those dig 2 cards into the library. In nearly every storm deck, this is wonderful and fuels storm counts without issue. So why not run them? Zada let us cheat on card advantage and get ahead with bad spells. Why pay 1-2 mana to dig down 2 cards with when I can spend the same amount to draw 6 or more with terrible commons? The answer is that the looting is intended to draw into said cantrips, and it is a perfectly reasonable proposition. Admiral Sultan has good looking Zada storm deck that plays most of those spells, and he would probably be more able to answer than I. That said, my take is rather straightforward. Assessing and considering the instances when the deck fell over its face, it is my opinion that I would have been better served to have 2 more creatures to radiate a cantrip to than I would have to loot 2 cards. Why do I believe this? Mana.
Like most storm lists, as we try to get the deck off of the ground, mana and cards are tight. Let's compare tormenting voice to dragon fodder. These cards have literally nothing in common but casting cost and card type. Zada turns those goblins into a repeatable draw source, which stay out to be multiplied, turned into mana, and reused in the next cantrip. Comparing the investment of 1R between the two cards, I get a larger payout by replacing all my looting with more low cost creatures and token production. It is for this reason that I continue to consider thatcher revolt playable.
Does this line of thinking help the deck dig into a cantrip without one? Absolutely not. That's where mulligans come into play and playing a certain density of each critical card role is needed. My group is testing the proposed 7-7-6-5 + scry 1 mulligan, and I have no qualms about admitting that sometimes going down to 5 has been needed, but starting with a cantrip is critical if you intend to storm that game (which need not be every game). Playing a high number of cards in each role is essential for this plan to have a hope of working.
In conclusion; the looting spells are playable, and most likely effective. However, with mulligans, patience with cantrips, and card density; it is my belief that the deck is more likely to storm out with thatcher revolt than with act on impulse (which you didn't list, but was also in my pile of considerations).
It's almost too much fun to play. My playgroup thinks I've lost my mind by how often I've been cackling maniacally.
I'd never considered mycosynth lattice, not even due to mana cost, but because it didn't come up an any gatherer trawl-searches for cards. That would greatly improve emrakul's hatcher and spawning breath, to say nothing of making me reconsider mana echoes and even mana seism (which I had tested and cut due to colorless production). I may need to try that out, but as you described I am rather hesitant on casting cost. I'd say this is competing with mana geyser to get back in.
I really like the reshuffle option here, especially Kozilek. However, I just cut my only source of discard in faithless looting. Without that outlet, I almost certainly wouldn't be able to reshuffle with that trigger. Any suggestions on synergistic discard outlets? I guess I could play chandra ablaze as a discard outlet and volt charge to turn her into a past in flames that doesn't exile. That could push the mathematical upper limit of overblaze triggers to 29?!, I think. That's spicy! Back to discard outlets, Sparkspitter could turn lands in hand (or an eldrazi titan) into tokens, but does nothing when I draw it to save me and the token production is somewhat expensive on mana.
After a quick gatherer search, I couldn't find a discard outlet that I'd really consider unless I started slotting the looting spells back in, which admittedly could happen. Realistically, I should probably just use Firestorm to win by resolving some quantity of cantrips until the library is empty, then throwing my deck at everyone for damage. Unrealistically I could include Shimmer myr to flash in vedalken orrery and go off anyways, casting then flinging artifacts or mogg fanatic with cantrips on the stack.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
It is effectively a strange seismic assault that every player can take advantage of, but I don't think its universal activated ability should pose much of a problem, since I get the feeling that nobody else will ever want to pich a land to it. I'd however watch out for players that might have decks that can take advantage of their graveyard and might benifit from universal discard outlets.
The addition of Green makes the shenanigans that can be got up to that much and it will also have no problems drawing cards or finding Zada when I have something else to make him go off.
Also Soulbright Flamekin may be a card to look into
They're probably the worst cards in the deck, but the deck also just *really* needs to draw its cantrips and its mana rituals. Unlike other tribal or token decks, this deck can't actually do much with just a bunch of tokens alone, so finding the ways I need to 'go off' takes priority, even if it means runnning unexciting digging spells like Wild Guess and Tormenting Voice. Despite being a better card in general, Faitless Loothing is in and out of the deck, because the card disadvantage is occasioanlly crippling, and there isn't really a good way to utilize sending cards to the graveyard outside of Past in Flames. It tended to disappoint in testing, though I might want to give it another try. If I had the ability to just run more cantrips I'd do that--sadly, Zap is going to almost board wipe us most of the time--but faiing that, the looting spells suffice.
I will say, however, that I'm not doing the arcane theme personally, I'm much lighter on pump spells, and I'm way more all-in on the 'go off in a single turn or bust' angle of things so I have more space for these utility cards.
I saw land's edge and must have misread it, as I thought that it could hit creatures. I dismissed it out of hand as I was concerned that another player would attempt to disrupt me by using lands edge to shot down Zada or other creatures. That it can only target players is a serious boon here, and you are correct about the drawbacks. This makes me consider a deck more focused around draw->discard for damage, as there are a good number of effective cards for that concept.
Part of what I'm looking for is a way out of the situations I've found myself in, ie. a game loss is on the stack and I have to go off or continue going off in response. Cards like cerebral vortex at an inopportune time can be lethal, and without another way around them, we have to win with it on the stack. I'm testing firestorm in the place of unnatural blizzard (the only sorcery arcane spell) for now, and may try swapping to lightning storm to make it more difficult to counter by copying it with Zada.
I also missed that I can use scroll rack to put my hand back into my deck in any order, without drawing. This helps alleviate the issue entirely with cautious play. It also gets me excited to stack my deck just right for possibility storm, letting me double cast each arcane spell in turn before I even start to flash them back.
Adding green (or most any other color) approximately doubles the number of possible cantrips that could be played, as well as offering ramp and reasonable token production. I haven't looked into how may efficient, low cost sources of multiple creatures could be played, as most green creatures/token sources I play in other decks tend to be mana intensive. Obviously this could be overcome with ramp and playing to green's strong suite.
The other gain in adding any color would be a larger selection of arcane. Kodama's Might plays a lot more into our interests than strange inversion. I realize that not everyone is interested in the full arcane suite of spells, but if green were added, you could copy/splice with kodama's reach(!), roar of Jukai(free pump spell) or inner calm, outer strength(huge pump) in the mix, and that just sounds wonderful. Going multicolored with arcane spells would need some sort of color fixing to go off with desperate ritual, and I think DarkingScribe's suggestion of mycosynth lattice would do well there.
Honestly, I'd suggest boros as an alternative way to play Zada. This opens a large number of indestructibility options for an arcbond build and white has the largest number of reasonably good cantrip options. Synergizing heal with zap would be great. There's just the glaring issue of finding Zada in a RW deck.
Soulbright Flamekin is a creature and a potentially ramping source of color fixing without even mentioning being a source of trample. I'd be a lot more tempted if I was still running sources of colorless mana that weren't eldrazi spawn. As the deck currently stands, it would take 6 to get 8xR, which would be a oneshot effect per turn. That's not that efficient when compared to most of our other rituals. I've tried out infernal plunge, generator servant, rite of flame, seething song, dragonrage, and simian spirit guide. Out of all these, including the flamekin, I'd say that simian guide and maybe infernal plunge could be good. The emphasis on lowering upfront costs comes into play rather significantly here.
I really appreciate your input as a fellow Zada player, thanks for sharing. The looting spells would help dig into the real meat of the deck, when we get stuck in without cantrips in hand. It has seemed to be that I can keep a weaker looking hand with a couple lands and a cantrip and be more likely to storm than a great hand without one. I play twice as many creatures as I do cantrips, and that's significant. I have intended to make an excel calculator for draw probabilities of various card types, but as of now I don't have the math to back up my assumptions. How many cards do you typically have in hand when you cast one of these looting cards? Is it setting up a storm turn or during it? Sorry to keep asking you questions. I'll take it to your thread if you prefer.
To increase the breadth of cards we can see, I played larger looting spells at one point. I've considered incendiary command and shattered perception to allow a cantrip that missed finding the next cantrip cycle further into my deck. I decided that those cards cost too much mana and didn't like discarding arcane spells. A general theme is that I've been able to get away with a huge amount of card disadvantage (rituals, lackluster spells in general) by leveraging the raw draw power of cantrips. Cantrips are what make Zada work in nearly every build, and I do mulligan away most starting hands that don't have a cantrip.
As to zap and flare, I must admit that I've not tested these outside of theorizing. That said, if we played a higher density of pump spells that increase toughness such as brute force, fit of rage or titan's strength, these may be worthwhile. Alternatively, if the main gameplan were arcbond, then creatures are probably going to survive anyway.
The slate fills the same role as the cantrips. Slate of Ancestry is a huge investment to draw the same number of cards as stun as long as Zada is out. If zada is not out, slate isn't a bad way to refill but has very high cost and is slow. I hadn't considered it up to this point.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I tend to use them to set up a storm turn, but they are occasionally useful for digging deeper during one. Sometimes I have a lot of mana and just need to find another cantrip, so they're useful for that. As for how many cards I have in my hand, it varies. I don't really wait to cast these, so I tend to just cast them whenever I have nothing else to do. If I can play a creature instead I do that, because I might still topdeck what I need, but otherwise they just get cast when I can. Also, I don't mind discussing it here, this thread is much more active, and this subject is relevant to any kind of Zada deck.
In my testing, while I can generally mull into/draw a cantrip and get going, the games where I can't, the deck just does stone cold nothing, and I'm trying to avoid the number of games that happens. I play 3 Wheel effects already--Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, and Memory Jar--and those help me for when I either run out of cards or simply don't need what I have, but the small looting effects are nice for when you do have something you need---maybe you have a ritual spell but no cantrips--and you just need to dig a little more without giving up everything. I considered Incendiary Command and Shattered Perception as well, and discarded them for the same reasons you brought up.
My deck plays very, very few pump spells--I think right now it's literally just Reckless Charge and Blazing Shoal--so Zap and Flare are even worse in my deck than they are in other Zada decks, but I'll admit I've never actually tested them. They at least won't kill Zada, which is nice, but it feels wrong to destroy my field just to draw more cards that will need me to rebuild my field before I can use them well. I'm not a huge fan of the Arcbond plan, because it requires a specific card to do anything at all in the deck,
It's nice having someone to bounce ideas and testing off of. If you end up making that excel calculator, I'd love to see your results. Zada seems to be all about the proper ratios of card types, and tuning the deck is mostly just figuring those out. So far, I've been finding that cutting pump spells helps the deck, because since we're going with the storm angle and trying to draw a ton of cards in one turn, we don't really need to cast that many pump spells. Half the time, I don't even win with combat at all. When I do I just tend to cast Twinflame effects a couple times courtesy of Past in Flames and attack my opponents for crazy amounts of damage, and then just use a single pump spell. Cutting pump spells gives me the room to add the looting spells, as well as some powerful protection cards in Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Defense Grid, which can make stopping me difficult.
Also, I added Helm of Awakening after you praised it, and I can't believe I ever doubted the card. Ramping my opponents is insiginificant compared to the benefits it gives this deck, wow. How is Priest of Urabrask testing? At first I thought it seemed kind of 'meh' because it's just a 'free' creature, but it does have great synergy with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer. I'll probably test it in one of my flex slots.
You're definitely playing a more all-in storm approach. If I ever cast a single cantrip, the odds are rather good that I can take out a player unless I topdeck 7 lands. I still play 9 pump spells, and any combination of 2 of these or overblaze can deal 40+ damage with an average board state. If I can't take out everyone, I'll take out my biggest threat. The best situation for this to occur is when the fresh cantrip that I drew won't supply cards until the next upkeep. That said, even if I'm left topdecking for a cantrip I've gotten some breathing room.
I don't really have the open slots for hate/protection. As you said, the deck's all about ratios and card densities. I order to consistently achieve an effect, we have to play a lot of cards that fit that role. If you're able to throw down enough creatures that they're lethal on their own, then cutting back the density of spells that boost power is probably rather effective. For me, having two paths to victory (full out storm/regular zada pump) has shored up my weaknesses, or seemed to. As to playing pump spells, titan's strength really is effective at also setting you up to draw something useful. I usually use it to scry away until I hit another cantrip or (in my case) a good arcane spell.
Our conversation has made me want to try out zap and flare if I can find good replacements for fatal frenzy and other spells that would also boost toughness. If I can play any one of the pump spells to turn on zap/flare, then their effectiveness may rise enough to be worth considering. Without at least 8 spells in that role though, I'd be hard pressed to try those options. I will probably never try Telim'Tor's Edict.
Priest of Urabrask is the sole remnant of a time when I tried the 0-cost creatures. The priest remained because of the ritual effect if there is a cost-reducer out and having twinflame ramp. I'm rather satisfied with its effect. If there were more creatures that did this, I would consider them. "Free" creatures are not to be underestimated here. I wouldn't recommend actual free creatures, as ornithoper and phyrexian walker were very lackluster.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I intend to make use of the average CMC of spells, specifically rituals and additional sources of creatures. I have the inputs present, but not the math to suggest how much mana to leave up when refilling your hand.
The implications of this calculator are that we break a 50% probability of casting a cantrip and drawing into another cantrip once we have 4 creatures and Zada on the battlefield, which is a rather typical board state. In the same situation, casting a looting spell has a 25% chance of drawing into a cantrip. I'll admit that those odds push me towards the reconsideration of looting spells, but as alluded to by Admiral Sultan I'm currently packing the slots for those cards with my arcane spells.
As the creature count increases, we see the next odds of of a cantrip (with my list) as follows:
30% odds = 2 other creatures
40% odds = 3 other creatures
50% odds = 4 other creatures
60% odds = 6 other creatures
70% odds = 8 other creatures
80% odds = 10 other creatures
Depending on how lucky you feel or critical it is to go off immediately, these are approximately the numbers to keep in mind.
These numbers really show why I think that thatcher revolt and similar spells are playable here. 2R to increase storm probability by 15% that turn? I'll pay that cost.
In a similar vein, I'm currently considering devastating summons (x=1), elemental mastery...maybe, and pact of the titan as cards with higher creature/cost ratios. Anyone have thoughts on these or similar? I almost wish I was able to play a high artifact count because no cards comes close to the count/cost ratio of kuldotha rebirth.
Regarding prior thoughts on zap and flare, there are not enough spells (much less good/low cost spells) in red that increase toughness. Unless more of these spells are printed, the deck changes to include anthem permanents such as caged sun or gauntlet of power/might, then I don't forsee these spells being worthwhile to cast.
I've not had as much time to work with this deck recently, due to work.
I did, however get one game in where the main source of interaction was on the stack. After Krenko, mob boss was countered (accelerate in hand), I started going off with skirk prospector. The prophet of kruphix player (playing Prime Speaker Zegana) had survival of the fittest and deadeye navigator on the battlefield and tutored mystic snake. Unfortunately for him, Zada, young pyromancer, and empty the warrens have trigger abilities that make it difficult to stop the stack without stifle. It was his first time seeing this deck, and I almost felt bad until I remembered his board state was about to soft-lock the game.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
If you wanted to play probably the dumbest thing you could do in Mono red is Kormus Bell Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to increase the number of targets for a
bunch of spells through the roof. Has hilarious consequences to some of the spells but what is red without a little risk.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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