Quote from gxmiter »I run Flaring Pain in my list as well. Deflecting Palm, Comeuppance, and fogs are all pretty commonplace in my meta.
What do you all think of Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not enthusiastic about the "impulsive draw" and it's sort of a nonbo with splice effects but it's the closest we can get to Elvish Visionary and the prowess isn't irrelevant. Could be kind of win-more I guess?
Quote from Admiral Sultan »I haven't actually considered Abbot of Keral Keep yet, and I don't know how the card escaped my notice for so long. I feel like it's probably a very good card in this deck. It's great with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer, and it's probably better than one of the creatures currently in the deck. It's underwhelming turn 2, but any turn after that it should be great, even if it's just getting a land off the top of your deck.
Quote from lyonhaert »I'd rather wait until I have Scroll Rack in the deck before trying Abbot of Keral Keep so I can stack the top cards for him. But then I'd pretty much have to depend on having him in play. First Abbot is 1 card, first copy (Twinflame/Heat Shimmer) for 2 total, then the other for 4 total. Flashback one then gets 4 more for 8 total, then the other for another 8 for 16 total. So you could "re-access" cards you've put in the library and make sure you're not going to accidentally exile Overblaze or Desperate Ritual. Unless you like to gamble.
Just be aware that if you exile a land with him, playing that land counts toward the number of lands per turn you can play. So if you played a land already and plop him down and turn over a land, you're SOL.
Quote from lyonhaert »
Quote from crazy monkey »I like your list. Which prevention is flaring pain metagaming against; fog(stop us) or deflecting palm (kills us)?Fog and its various cousins I can get around with the direct-damage creatures when I have instances of Overblaze. I hadn't thought about Deflecting Palm but that's a good one, too. I know one of my friends runs Safe Passage, though, which would prevent both combat and direct damage. That's the main thing Flaring Pain is for, but I've had Comeuppance used against me, too.
Edit: I should also mention that I'll likely put Command Beacon in and take Ally Encampment out. I usually don't have the 1 available for activating it in response to something.
Quote from crazy monkey »I like your list. Which prevention is flaring pain metagaming against; fog(stop us) or deflecting palm (kills us)?
Quote from Hipster Mike »Here's the version I'll be playing tonight at league
crazy monkey's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Artifacts : 121 Mana Crypt1 Mana Vault1 Sol Ring1 Skullclamp1 Mind Stone1 Isochron Scepter1 Ashnod's Altar1 Gauntlet of Might1 Pyromancer's Goggles1 Gauntlet of Power1 Eldrazi Monument1 Caged SunPlaneswalkers : 11 Daretti, Scrap SavantEnchantments : 51 Goblin Bombardment1 Blood Moon1 Stranglehold1 In the Web of War1 Possibility StormInstants : 91 Panic1 Crimson Wisps1 Aleatory1 Stun1 Accelerate1 Boiling Blood1 Downhill Charge1 Chaos Warp1 Balduvian RageSorcery : 151 Wheel of Fate1 Reforge the Soul1 Reckless Charge1 Vandalblast1 Gamble1 Dragon Fodder1 Hordeling Outburst1 Mizzix's Mastery1 Past In Flames1 Empty the Warrens1 Descent of the Dragons1 Insurrection1 Last Chance1 Ruination1 Krenko's CommandCreatures : 221 Signal Pest1 Goblin Welder1 Goblin Wardriver1 Goblin Rabblemaster1 Goblin Matron1 Magus of the Wheel1 Feldon of the Third Path1 Anger1 Purphoros, God of the Forge1 Marton Stromgald1 Beetleback Chief1 Krenko, Mob Boss1 Moggcatcher1 Siege-Gang Commander1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker1 Hangarback Walker1 Ogre Battledriver1 Mogg War Marshal1 Dragon Mage1 Ghirapur Gearcrafter1 Thopter Engineer1 Pia and Kiran NalaarLand : 351 Rogue's Passage1 Evolving Wilds1 Spinerock Knoll1 Terramorphic Expanse1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx1 Ancient Tomb1 Reliquary Tower1 Temple of the False God1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle26 Mountain
Mind Stone for Memory Jar
Insurrection for Wheel of Fortune
Quote from Hipster Mike »Thinking of swapping Ruination out for War's Toll
Quote from lyonhaert »Most folks I play with would say, "I have to attack every turn? Okay, I'll attack you." I sometimes take Ruination out and put From the Ashes in, though, depending on the playgroup.
Quote from crazy monkey »I just looked through the decklist posted in the indecision thread on the main commander page. How did I not know that credit voucher was a second scroll rack for me? The slightly higher cost and inability to reuse it may keep it from surviving testing, but I didn't even know that card existed.
also, from the ashes + stranglehold is just the right amount of evil. I need that in Haterade.
Quote from IAmAnesthetize »I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
Quote from IAmAnesthetize »For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
Quote from IAmAnesthetize »Quote from crazy monkey »I just looked through the decklist posted in the indecision thread on the main commander page. How did I not know that credit voucher was a second scroll rack for me? The slightly higher cost and inability to reuse it may keep it from surviving testing, but I didn't even know that card existed.
also, from the ashes + stranglehold is just the right amount of evil. I need that in Haterade.
I'm very happy to hear of your interest in Credit Voucher. I really wish I could afford Scroll Rack, but that's a bit too much for me. Credit Voucher runs as an okay replacement, but it is still lacking. I've had to throw in Commune with Lava to make up for the lack in hand sculpting. Important aspects of Voucher: It shuffles the cards back into your library. This can be good or bad, but I'd generally prefer Scroll Rack's implementation allowing you to stack the top cards. The other aspect is that it draws the cards. Good for Psychosis Crawler, one of my favorite cards. Crawler CMC is pretty high for this deck, though. It's probably optimal not to run it, but I have a personal attachment.
I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
With regard to Abbot of Keral Keep... I don't like it. The chance of a backfire seems too great. If you exile an arcane spell, then you can no longer splice it onto another Arcane spell. If we're going to be Twinflameing or Heat Shimmering, I don't know that we're going to need access to more cards. At this point, card draw should be covered by our cantrips. Before this point, we want more creatures. I also don't think Prowess is ever going to make that much of a difference. If my creatures are swinging, they tend to all have large power boosts. A few prowess triggers isn't that impactful.
Comparing Abbot to Thopter Engineer:
2 mana for a creature and maybe a useful card vs 3 mana for a creature and a flying token. Cantripping here gives us 2 cards from the abbot and 2 cards from the engineer.
One Twinflame later: An extra creature and maybe a useful card vs an extra engi and 2 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 4 cards from Abbot and 5 from Thopter.
Two Twinflames: Two extra creatures and two cards vs two extra engis and 5 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 8 cards from Abbot and 12 from Thopter.
And finally, three Twinflames: 4 extra creatures and 4 more cards vs 4 more engis and 12 new flying tokens.
I can see how the Abbot can be beneficial because you don't need a cantrip for value, but the exponential power of the Engi seems too strong to me.
Quote from Admiral Sultan »On the subject of Firestorm, in any game where I've had enough cards in my hand to go for lethal damage, I've never actually failed to use Firestorm. Generally at that point I've gone off and I have a horde of tokens that I can target in order to get up to what I need to kill my opponents. If I don't have a horde of tokens, or I can't make one immediately, the chances of me having greater than 40 cards in my hand are pretty slim. Conflagrate needs too much mana for it to do what Firestorm does to an entire table. Firestorm just needs bodies and cards, and this deck is unqiuely suited to providing both. The thing I don't like about Purphoros, God of the Forge in this deck is that he shares a mana cost with Zada, which is *super* awkward. He also often won't provide a body for Zada's ability either, so you're going to have to waste a turn playing him, spend either the turn before casting him or the turn after casting him playing Zada. He's also really bad if you draw him at the end of 'going off'. Same goes for Psychosis Crawler, although it doesn't even give you the ability to play it turn 4. Both cards are probably going to have to spend an entire turn rotation sitting on the board before they do enough to warrant having played them, whereas Firestorm can just end a game instantly. Fiery Gambit is similar.
I agree that Abbot of Keral Keep isn't as good as Thopter Engineer, as token producers are the most important cards in the deck, but they're not really competing for the same slot. It 'backfiring' isn't really that huge of a deal, because even if it exiles one of the cards we want and we can't use it, it's functionally the same thing as if we'd never drawn that card. It's sort of like how milling someone isn't actually a form of disruption. Abbot is more in contention with another value spell or a value creature.
Quote from gxmiter »I personally would run Abbot alongside Thopter Engineer when i get an Abbot to test, as they do very different things. I'm not sure what to cut for it yet. My list is midrange-ier than most of the lists in this thread but not as midrange-y as Hipster Mike's. For example, I play PT-boosting Goblin lords as well as Brute Force, Titan's Strength, Fury Charm, and Eldrazi Monument to make Zap and Spawning Breath better, but not so many expensive cards that the mana-doublers are necessary.
The only arcane cards I would be unhappy to flip off of Abbot are Overblaze and Desperate Ritual, everything else is fine to hit in my opinion.
Quote from IAmAnesthetize »I'm beginning to think I should just make two Zadas: One for explosive and ridiculous games that end in a turn and one that's a bit more grindy and mid-range. I think I've known and just didn't want to admit that Psychosis Crawler and Purphoros, God of the Forge are a bit too slow and awkward for the deck.
lyonheart thanks for the explanation. I remember reading the "Scry a bunch, cantrip while scrying" before, but I don't think it really clicked. I'm still not sure if it's worth 4 mana when it only combos with Krenko, but there aren't many other options here. I'm going to think about slotting this in.
I can't afford a Phyrexian Altar. I'm wondering if you think Thermopod is worth running if you can't budget for the Altar. Ashnod's Altar is the closest comparison I have, but colorless mana is almost useless. I don't have many other options, so I'm going to attempt Thermopod. I'm often finding myself short on rituals.
Abbot of Keral Keep in, Unearthly Blizzard is out.
Firestorm in, Conflagrate is out.
Priest of Urabrask in, Psychosis Crawler out.
Thermopod in, Purphoros, God of the Forge out.
Quote from gxmiter »I do play Arcbond, but it hasn't yet accomplished anything and I'm leaning toward cutting it for Treasonous Ogre, a card that I love but don't play because winning with Arcbond requires having the highest life total at the table (or Gratuitous Violence, I guess).
I think I would only run Thermopod if I felt like I needed more creature-rituals after Skirk Prospector and Treasonous Ogre, but if you're running Desperate Ritual + arcane spells and Battle Hymn/Brightstone Ritual, it's probably unnecessary. I don't particularly like Priest of Urabrask either.