General Tazri can kind of let people play 5 color Zada now
Oh. That...that is hilarious, actually. I...might *have* to build that. Five-color allies with a huge cantrip package for Zada? That's absolutely hysterical.
Honestly, thanks to Tazri's monowhite casting cost, Tazri could finally be the way to play straight up Boros Zada, since there's no reason you'd have to play all five colors. I might just make this deck and switch between monored Zada and Boros or possibly Jeskai Zada.
That could be interesting, including if you use the 2-cost mana dorks and Jeskai Ascendancy or something. But it would likely be a bit more mid-rangey, right?
I've been testing while proxying up Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and the card really pulls it's weight. Despite being a 5 drop, it can sometimes not get in the way of comboing off after playing Zada, as rebuying a mana ritual or a cantrip is just so impactful. And the couple times i've hit him with a twinflame just ended the game. The card is just incredibly powerful, it feels like we've been granted access to Snapcaster Mage.
RE: Boros Zada with General Tazri, that would likely be the most effective arcbond build, between boros charm, ajani's presence and others, plus angel's grace effects to survive. It would, by necessity, be more midrange of course. The hardest part would be colorfixing, as most good rituals produce R or C. This would get even more difficult in 4 color decks, even though the deck would be more resilient with ink-treader as the commander. I'd definitely look into some sort of global colorfixing and cackle maniacally about kodama's reach and spiritual visit.
Having tested in Ib in an all out combo version of the deck, I can tell you that he us what some decks want. Ib can be the best token generator in the deck if you let him. The increased creature count makes up for the loss of land, as regrettable as that is with Fiery Gambit.
I compared Ib and beetleback chief in my last week of testing and I believe the overall token production is not all that different, maybe 1-2 tokens in Ib halfheart's favor, which is matched after a single twinflame (keep the body because Ib is legendary) and overtaken after 2. Accounting for twinflame, heat shimmer, and fiery gambit working better with beetleback, I don't think I'll swap the two (not that that was ever proposed). A more goblin centric build than mine may swap him for a 3-5 cost source of non-goblin tokens.
I know there was a little bit of discussion earlier in the thread about cards like Iron Myr, and I'm curious how those have been testing for people. I've recently switched in Iron Myr, Millikin, and Plague Myr into my deck, and I've been loving them. There were some cards I was running largely because they were bodies with upside--Goblin Wardriver and Signal Pest being the main ones--and these are far better, to the point that I'm actually considering adding in Hedron Crawler when it comes out in Oath, if I can find the room. Mana rocks that don't immediately produce more mana than they cost to cast always underwhelmed me in this deck, but being creatures makes these cards much better here. Having mild synergy with Twinflame also helps them.
I had tried iron myr in place of simain spirit guide (still no trade for a chrome mox), but I think that slot is going back to be a land. I don't know if it's just luck of the draw or not, but I've been mana screwed more frequently than I should be. I'll look for other slots to try at least the iron myr in, if for no other reason than how effective priest of urabrask has been.
As to swaps and upgrades: expedite is, of course staying in, and I'm rather confident that it will be displacing portent of betrayal. brute strength is likely bumping downhill charge for me, and I'm also be trying out zap in the place of aleatory. I may look at fury charm as well. goblin dark-dwellers is the real deal. I managed to trade one at prerelease and it deserves inclusion without question. They've done great things every time I've drawn them.
I've had a test game that used ruby medallion and turn 3 Zada into ritual off of priest of urabrask and twinflame to have RRRRRR + 2 untapped mountains, goblin dark-dwellers flashed back the twinflame, and resolved Zadas trigger and the copies targeting priest of urabrask for a creature count of Zada, 4x preist, 1x Dark Dwellers. With an empty graveyard and now 10xR floating, cast stun and drew into haze of rage. I'd had reckless charge in my hand. The dark dwellers token flashbacked stun, which whiffed on 7 cards; no cantrip in 14 cards drawn that turn.
With my 9 mana and 2 lands, reckless charge, flashback reckless charge, then use my remaining 8 mana to cast haze of rage with buyback twice (storm counts of 9 and 10 respectively) and finally without buyback. Each of my 7 creatures was swinging for 38 to 40 damage. Not a bad turn 4 after stalling out on arcane, rituals and cantrips.
I'm not saying Ib is better than beetleback, but merely suggesting that both should be played.
I was simply using beetleback as a comparison in my testing slot, I apologize if that wasn't clear. I agree that both are effective token generators here, but am wary of the cost in lands. I would try swapping emrakul's hatcher for him, but it's hard to give up that mana redundancy.
So I'm really digging your arcane suite. I was running my initial version with just token generation and then going full assault with the boons and it was pretty destructive. Plenty a time have I been groaned at in casual rooms in Cockatrice by players calling Zada "non-casual" so I'm beginning to think that, just like the famous line from the Godfather, Zada's "gonna be a contender".
Mixing and matching from what you've accomplished, here's my list. It's more creature-heavy in how I get my tokens in play (you can't abuse Cloudstone Curio with token spells but you can with creatures producing tokens when entering the battlefield). I'd also like to add Magus of the Moon both for redundancy's sake and because it is a body. Anyway, onto the list:
The deck runs more or less like you could imagine it to: when I get to make arcane chains it becomes difficult to process the numbers even with a calculator and a degree in mathematics. On the more humbler side, I have consistently attacked everyone at the table with dozens of creatures with power well in the double digits. I love this deck. The good thing? Save for Gauntlet of Might and Blood Moon, it's dirt cheap - which a math major loves because hey, do you know what a math degree and a medium-size pizza have in common? Neither can feed a family of 4, lol.
I'm still dying to see Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery in action. I feel that if you already have all these spells in the graveyard to take abusive advantage of these two cards, then you should've won the game already. So, in the end it may just be overkill. But they're flashy and I like that. It'll make that overkill all the more amazing when your creatures are well into the octadigits without resorting to infinite loops or pseudo infinite loops.
Oh, and the token generation gets to be broken. Sometimes I can win with just producing tokens with Purphoros, God of the Forge out in case the opponents have pillowforts or simply disallows me to attack.
Any comments on my list are greatly appreciated, especially yours, crazy monkey.
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Oh, I forgot to ask:
Any reason for Fatal Frenzy over Rush of Blood? Both cost the same, have the same effect, and the same card time. Except, Rush of Blood doesn't force you to sacrifice your creatures afterwards, it's uncommon instead of rare (so it's cheaper and easier to get), and it's also from a much more recent set, so it's even easier for someone to have lying around.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
This made such a difference on so many ways. It lowered the mana curve, it lowered the deck's price, and the deck also ran more consistently. As much as I'm sad to swap out Seize the Day, the fact is that I produce so many tokens that I only really need one combat step - sometimes not even that if I have Purphoros in play. The only downside to this deck is that when it goes off, you're basically playing solitaire with spectators as your opponents observe your inevitable victory. Quite the thing to say for a R deck! It also produces mana on levels rivalling G - I'd say even more!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
So I'm really digging your arcane suite. I was running my initial version with just token generation and then going full assault with the boons and it was pretty destructive. Plenty a time have I been groaned at in casual rooms in Cockatrice by players calling Zada "non-casual" so I'm beginning to think that, just like the famous line from the Godfather, Zada's "gonna be a contender".
Mixing and matching from what you've accomplished, here's my list. It's more creature-heavy in how I get my tokens in play (you can't abuse Cloudstone Curio with token spells but you can with creatures producing tokens when entering the battlefield). I'd also like to add Magus of the Moon both for redundancy's sake and because it is a body. Anyway, onto the list:
The deck runs more or less like you could imagine it to: when I get to make arcane chains it becomes difficult to process the numbers even with a calculator and a degree in mathematics. On the more humbler side, I have consistently attacked everyone at the table with dozens of creatures with power well in the double digits. I love this deck. The good thing? Save for Gauntlet of Might and Blood Moon, it's dirt cheap - which a math major loves because hey, do you know what a math degree and a medium-size pizza have in common? Neither can feed a family of 4, lol.
I'm still dying to see Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery in action. I feel that if you already have all these spells in the graveyard to take abusive advantage of these two cards, then you should've won the game already. So, in the end it may just be overkill. But they're flashy and I like that. It'll make that overkill all the more amazing when your creatures are well into the octadigits without resorting to infinite loops or pseudo infinite loops.
Oh, and the token generation gets to be broken. Sometimes I can win with just producing tokens with Purphoros, God of the Forge out in case the opponents have pillowforts or simply disallows me to attack.
Any comments on my list are greatly appreciated, especially yours, crazy monkey.
That's an interesting blend of midranged and a more storm list. Do you frequently end your turn with an over-full hand? I'm surprised at the 3 cards to prevent discarding. It seems likely that those could swap other to cards that would better facilitate trying to push kills through that turn. Your higher manacurve may prevent that, I suppose.
While I'm on the topic of manacurve, the card I miss the most is possibility storm. If you're willing to go in on triggering Zada with a higher manacurve then it can be an incredibly powerful way to double up on triggers. Alternatively, the previous suggestion of flameshadow conjuring may work better for you (it looks like it may be some excellent synergy with cloudstone curio) than it would have for me. The potential added benefit could be infinite mana and tokens with conjouring, cloudstone curio and priest of urabrask, if that's something that interests you.
The four cards that you cut are, as you noted, excellent with flashback and good synergy with young pyromancer. An early storm turn is heavily dependent on having a critical mass of creatures early, and cheap sources of multiple creatures allow for those early explosive turns.
I'm somewhat confused by pyreheart wolf, that seems like it doesn't have a large impact. I've also not been to impressed by assault strobe. I also believe that haze of rage is typically more effective than seething anger as long as you can hit a reasonable storm count, which usually isn't that difficult.
The Purphoros interaction is effective, but the mana cost is slightly too high a cost for me, but it's a powerful effect to be sure.
That's an interesting blend of midranged and a more storm list. Do you frequently end your turn with an over-full hand? I'm surprised at the 3 cards to prevent discarding. It seems likely that those could swap other to cards that would better facilitate trying to push kills through that turn. Your higher manacurve may prevent that, I suppose.
While I'm on the topic of manacurve, the card I miss the most is possibility storm. If you're willing to go in on triggering Zada with a higher manacurve then it can be an incredibly powerful way to double up on triggers. Alternatively, the previous suggestion of flameshadow conjuring may work better for you (it looks like it may be some excellent synergy with cloudstone curio) than it would have for me. The potential added benefit could be infinite mana and tokens with conjouring, cloudstone curio and priest of urabrask, if that's something that interests you.
The four cards that you cut are, as you noted, excellent with flashback and good synergy with young pyromancer. An early storm turn is heavily dependent on having a critical mass of creatures early, and cheap sources of multiple creatures allow for those early explosive turns.
I'm somewhat confused by pyreheart wolf, that seems like it doesn't have a large impact. I've also not been to impressed by assault strobe. I also believe that haze of rage is typically more effective than seething anger as long as you can hit a reasonable storm count, which usually isn't that difficult.
The Purphoros interaction is effective, but the mana cost is slightly too high a cost for me, but it's a powerful effect to be sure.
Thanks for the reply!
I guess you're right on Pyreheart Wolf; it's a remnant of the original build I was working on when Zada was first spoiled. But spells with trample trumps a dog with menace - especially if you get more out of it with Zada. However, I would like to swap it out with a creature since having the deck heavier on creatures has been real key in the success of my build. Maybe I'll switch it out with Priest of Urabrask. Another good option is Treasonous Ogre for mana generation. Early to mid-game this can give me that extra mana needed to get that additional spell off.
What I don't like about Possibility Storm is the randomness. However, I do see the power in it. All the copies are still cast and only the original spell is shuffled. Then, the new spell is cast so it still triggers Zada, effectively getting 2 spells for one. I may look into that.
Flameshadow Conjuring was also something I was considering but I cut it because it basically made all my creatures cost R more and I honestly don't need to make that many tokens, the deck makes enough as is - even rivaling GW decks!
Assault Strobe hasn't been cut because it always does it for me. Early game it's super clutch and when against people who're bentic level pillowfort, that one or two stragglers with doublestrike that can push through really make the difference. You're right on Haze of Rage, though. My storm count does get ridiculously high. Empty the Warrens has seen that as well.
The reason I keep the 3 cards that prevent discard is because Fog effects are a thing in EDH. If I can't get the kill because damage is prevented or reduced to 0, I just lost all those spells and then my hand save for 7 cards. At least, if for some improbable reason I can fish out Purphoros, God of the Forge in the first 40 cards, I don't lose my hand. Sometimes I do a lot of mega cantripping goldfishing but I don't want to lose my hand. At least I can get a card to keep my hand once every 33 cards (probabilistically speaking).
Your build just dives in there straight to the point. But I do guess that 4-5th turn in a monoR like this one can be considered mid-range, lol.
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The reason I keep the 3 cards that prevent discard is because Fog effects are a thing in EDH. If I can't get the kill because damage is prevented or reduced to 0, I just lost all those spells and then my hand save for 7 cards. At least, if for some improbable reason I can fish out Purphoros, God of the Forge in the first 40 cards, I don't lose my hand. Sometimes I do a lot of mega cantripping goldfishing but I don't want to lose my hand. At least I can get a card to keep my hand once every 33 cards (probabilistically speaking).
The way we usually get around that, even at instant speed with potential sabotage on the stack, is with one of Mogg Fanatic, Spikeshot Elder, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, or Siege-Gang Commander on the field, and usually 5-6 instances of Overblaze active on them. Then you just take out the player who controls the fog and continue. This most important with Safe Passage and Comeuppance, since they're a little bit more potent than Fog.
The other way I prefer is to prevent the damage prevention. Instead of keeping my cards and waiting for my next turn, I would instead run Flaring Pain, Unstable Footing, Wild Slash, etc. It's a big fat "No, sir, I am winning now" to their fog effect.
This deck looks amazing. I am tempted to take apart one of my many mono-red decks to put this together. But some questions first.
Do you find you just hold back Zada until you can more or less when then unleash him?
How often do you just spam cantrips for value as opposed to just trying to outright KO people?
Is it even possible to win without Zada?
Do you find you just hold back Zada until you can more or less when then unleash him?
I sometimes hold her back if I've started without a cantrip, or if I want to only allow 1 round of turns before trying to do the storm turn. But otherwise, especially if I have a good set of starting cards and mana with which to start the storm, I'll cast her as soon as I can. But that's the key thing for her timing: mana and cards. If you don't have enough to cast her and then go off, you cast her and then try to go off the next turn, in most cases.
How often do you just spam cantrips for value as opposed to just trying to outright KO people?
Well, you don't want to "just spam cantrips" because you could deck yourself. There's a cycle of cantrips for drawing cards, rituals for mana to keep going, and creature production before doing all the buffs and whatnot in order to swing, but you just have to do your math and be careful. Also, a lot of what we do on the storm turn is only until end of turn, so if you can't completely go off (like if you don't hit any rituals), it's better to stop trying to go off and wait for next turn than to do as much as you can only to become the target.
Might become the target just because of the first cantrip, though. People who aren't familiar with Zada tend not to think of the cantrips because all those cards are dismissed out of hand for pretty much every other EDH deck. So then that ridiculous card advantage makes them feel very threatened, because you can dig for stuff better than most for very little mana. In red.
Only if your opponents are mana-screwed and can't stop several smallish creatures and tokens from hitting them over and over. It's very difficult to do anything without her, though I have had to use a couple cantrips on other creatures to get a couple tokens and try to dig for a card (but I held one back).
I recommend reading through the thread if you have the time. It'll teach a lot about piloting it.
The reason I keep the 3 cards that prevent discard is because Fog effects are a thing in EDH. If I can't get the kill because damage is prevented or reduced to 0, I just lost all those spells and then my hand save for 7 cards. At least, if for some improbable reason I can fish out Purphoros, God of the Forge in the first 40 cards, I don't lose my hand. Sometimes I do a lot of mega cantripping goldfishing but I don't want to lose my hand. At least I can get a card to keep my hand once every 33 cards (probabilistically speaking).
The way we usually get around that, even at instant speed with potential sabotage on the stack, is with one of Mogg Fanatic, Spikeshot Elder, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, or Siege-Gang Commander on the field, and usually 5-6 instances of Overblaze active on them. Then you just take out the player who controls the fog and continue. This most important with Safe Passage and Comeuppance, since they're a little bit more potent than Fog.
The other way I prefer is to prevent the damage prevention. Instead of keeping my cards and waiting for my next turn, I would instead run Flaring Pain, Unstable Footing, Wild Slash, etc. It's a big fat "No, sir, I am winning now" to their fog effect.
That's very true. Sometimes it's easy to forget amongst a field full of tokens that you can use Siege-Gang Commander and that buttload of mana to kill players on the field. This also gets around pillowforts, cards that prevent combat steps, etc. Either way, adding cards that prevent damage prevention should also kinda be a no-brainer as well. I could probably swap those in instead of the discard prevention. Other problems I've found is cards like Kismet, Frozen Æther, Blind Obedience, etc. which don't allow me to attack the same turn my creatures come into play (which can still be circumvented by Siege-Gang Commander sacrificing goblins). One reason I'm considering adding cards like Act of Treason and the like. But I don't know if doing so reduces efficiency (even though Act of Treason also pretty much gives haste and +1/+1). What do you think?
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The reason I keep the 3 cards that prevent discard is because Fog effects are a thing in EDH. If I can't get the kill because damage is prevented or reduced to 0, I just lost all those spells and then my hand save for 7 cards. At least, if for some improbable reason I can fish out Purphoros, God of the Forge in the first 40 cards, I don't lose my hand. Sometimes I do a lot of mega cantripping goldfishing but I don't want to lose my hand. At least I can get a card to keep my hand once every 33 cards (probabilistically speaking).
The way we usually get around that, even at instant speed with potential sabotage on the stack, is with one of Mogg Fanatic, Spikeshot Elder, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, or Siege-Gang Commander on the field, and usually 5-6 instances of Overblaze active on them. Then you just take out the player who controls the fog and continue. This most important with Safe Passage and Comeuppance, since they're a little bit more potent than Fog.
The other way I prefer is to prevent the damage prevention. Instead of keeping my cards and waiting for my next turn, I would instead run Flaring Pain, Unstable Footing, Wild Slash, etc. It's a big fat "No, sir, I am winning now" to their fog effect.
That's very true. Sometimes it's easy to forget amongst a field full of tokens that you can use Siege-Gang Commander and that buttload of mana to kill players on the field. This also gets around pillowforts, cards that prevent combat steps, etc. Either way, adding cards that prevent damage prevention should also kinda be a no-brainer as well. I could probably swap those in instead of the discard prevention. Other problems I've found is cards like Kismet, Frozen Æther, Blind Obedience, etc. which don't allow me to attack the same turn my creatures come into play (which can still be circumvented by Siege-Gang Commander sacrificing goblins). One reason I'm considering adding cards like Act of Treason and the like. But I don't know if doing so reduces efficiency (even though Act of Treason also pretty much gives haste and +1/+1). What do you think?
As to how I deal with fogs, deflecting palms and other disruption: I try to play around them. This can leave me in a situation with now outs, but that's very unlikely and has only happened once. In my build, I want as high a density of creature sources, cantrips, and rituals as can reasonably be achieved, and I didn't want to run cards that might be dead draws while I storm.
As I've said before, this is only one of my 32 decks, and I play this deck in my group about once or twice a week. I'm okay with occasional blowouts, and my playgroup (which does not have much fast combo) is okay with Zada jumping in for an under 30 minute game. It's a trade off, and that feeling of constantly being on the edge of failure/success that I get really fits the theme of the deck. This is all, of course, personal preference.
While testing, I've found that there are some cantrips which are kinda awful and very situational. I've found myself preferring to run cards like Zap over Aleatory simply because I can draw the moment I cast the spell and don't have to be limited to doing this crazy hijinxes in battle only. I also removed Chaotic Strike but left Panic simply because it costs R.
Going the token route has been really successful for me because I fill the field very quickly with creatures with helps with the cantrips, Battle Hymn, or simply amassing a Lord of the Rings level army of goblins. This gives me some flexibility in how to pilot the deck as well.
Your idea is genius and I'm glad to have based my deck off it. However, as you said, personal preferences will ultimately finish polishing the deck. The Zada Cantrip concept with abusing arcane is still there. So thanks for that.
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While testing, I've found that there are some cantrips which are kinda awful and very situational. I've found myself preferring to run cards like Zap over Aleatory simply because I can draw the moment I cast the spell and don't have to be limited to doing this crazy hijinxes in battle only. I also removed Chaotic Strike but left Panic simply because it costs R.
Going the token route has been really successful for me because I fill the field very quickly with creatures with helps with the cantrips, Battle Hymn, or simply amassing a Lord of the Rings level army of goblins. This gives me some flexibility in how to pilot the deck as well.
Your idea is genius and I'm glad to have based my deck off it. However, as you said, personal preferences will ultimately finish polishing the deck. The Zada Cantrip concept with abusing arcane is still there. So thanks for that.
I want to point more towards dropping balduvian rage instead of chaotic strike. Both have some tight timing restrictions, but chaotic strike provides cards that same turn, allowing for a second main phase storm off, or in your build perhaps a higher likelihood for a Purphoros kill.
Going deep into tokens also makes skirk prospector and phyrexian altar into good rituals to keep everything paid for at what's typically low losts in tokens.
Chaotic Strike can also be cast during an opponent's combat to draw a bunch of cards, whereas Balduvian Rage can't because it requires you to target an attacking creature.
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Updates! I need to cut three cards though. Still needs mox diamond, fetches, scroll rack, and mana crypt. I'm planning on adding great furnace and mox opal for testing too.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
With Brute Strength and Expedite coming out in the new set, I feel like I should slid Brute Force back in alongside Titan's Strength and Fury Charm in order to test Zap again.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Anyway I'm swapping out Fists of the Anvil for Brute Strength, Unearthly Blizzard for Expedite, and Ogre Battledriver (which has severely under-performed) for Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I compared Ib and beetleback chief in my last week of testing and I believe the overall token production is not all that different, maybe 1-2 tokens in Ib halfheart's favor, which is matched after a single twinflame (keep the body because Ib is legendary) and overtaken after 2. Accounting for twinflame, heat shimmer, and fiery gambit working better with beetleback, I don't think I'll swap the two (not that that was ever proposed). A more goblin centric build than mine may swap him for a 3-5 cost source of non-goblin tokens.
I had tried iron myr in place of simain spirit guide (still no trade for a chrome mox), but I think that slot is going back to be a land. I don't know if it's just luck of the draw or not, but I've been mana screwed more frequently than I should be. I'll look for other slots to try at least the iron myr in, if for no other reason than how effective priest of urabrask has been.
As to swaps and upgrades:
expedite is, of course staying in, and I'm rather confident that it will be displacing portent of betrayal.
brute strength is likely bumping downhill charge for me, and I'm also be trying out zap in the place of aleatory. I may look at fury charm as well.
goblin dark-dwellers is the real deal. I managed to trade one at prerelease and it deserves inclusion without question. They've done great things every time I've drawn them.
I've had a test game that used ruby medallion and turn 3 Zada into ritual off of priest of urabrask and twinflame to have RRRRRR + 2 untapped mountains, goblin dark-dwellers flashed back the twinflame, and resolved Zadas trigger and the copies targeting priest of urabrask for a creature count of Zada, 4x preist, 1x Dark Dwellers. With an empty graveyard and now 10xR floating, cast stun and drew into haze of rage. I'd had reckless charge in my hand. The dark dwellers token flashbacked stun, which whiffed on 7 cards; no cantrip in 14 cards drawn that turn.
With my 9 mana and 2 lands, reckless charge, flashback reckless charge, then use my remaining 8 mana to cast haze of rage with buyback twice (storm counts of 9 and 10 respectively) and finally without buyback. Each of my 7 creatures was swinging for 38 to 40 damage. Not a bad turn 4 after stalling out on arcane, rituals and cantrips.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
I was simply using beetleback as a comparison in my testing slot, I apologize if that wasn't clear. I agree that both are effective token generators here, but am wary of the cost in lands. I would try swapping emrakul's hatcher for him, but it's hard to give up that mana redundancy.
I'll keep Ib in mind for now.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Mixing and matching from what you've accomplished, here's my list. It's more creature-heavy in how I get my tokens in play (you can't abuse Cloudstone Curio with token spells but you can with creatures producing tokens when entering the battlefield). I'd also like to add Magus of the Moon both for redundancy's sake and because it is a body. Anyway, onto the list:
4 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Artifacts: 8
3 Cloudstone Curio
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Gauntlet of Might
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Ruby Medallion
1 Sol Ring
0 Spellbook
2 Thought Vessel
Creatures: 18
4 Beetleback Chief
7 Chancellor of the Forge
5 Emrakul's Hatcher
6 Goblin Marshal
3 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Recruiter
3 Guttersnipe
4 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Legion Loyalist
2 Mogg War Marshal
7 Myr Battlesphere
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
5 Precursor Golem
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 Pyreheart Wolf
6 Rapacious One
5 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Young Pyromancer
3 Blood Moon
Instants: 25
2 Accelerate
2 Aleatory
1 Balduvian Rage
2 Battle Hymn
2 Blazing Shoal
3 Boiling Blood
1 Brightstone Ritual
1 Brute Force
2 Brute Strength
3 Chaos Warp
2 Chaotic Strike
1 Crimson Wisps
2 Desperate Ritual
3 Downhill Charge
1 Expedite
1 Into the Fray
4 Overblaze
1 Panic
3 Path of Anger's Flame
1 Rouse the Mob
2 Spawning Breath
2 Stun
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Titan's Strength
1 Unnatural Speed
1 Assault Strobe
3 Fiery Gambit
3 Heat Shimmer
4 Inner Fire
5 Mana Geyser
4 Mizzix's Mastery
4 Past in Flames
1 Reckless Charge
1 Seething Anger
4 Seize the Day
2 Twinflame
Lands: 36
0 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Mountain (x34)
The deck runs more or less like you could imagine it to: when I get to make arcane chains it becomes difficult to process the numbers even with a calculator and a degree in mathematics. On the more humbler side, I have consistently attacked everyone at the table with dozens of creatures with power well in the double digits. I love this deck. The good thing? Save for Gauntlet of Might and Blood Moon, it's dirt cheap - which a math major loves because hey, do you know what a math degree and a medium-size pizza have in common? Neither can feed a family of 4, lol.
I'm still dying to see Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery in action. I feel that if you already have all these spells in the graveyard to take abusive advantage of these two cards, then you should've won the game already. So, in the end it may just be overkill. But they're flashy and I like that. It'll make that overkill all the more amazing when your creatures are well into the octadigits without resorting to infinite loops or pseudo infinite loops.
Oh, and the token generation gets to be broken. Sometimes I can win with just producing tokens with Purphoros, God of the Forge out in case the opponents have pillowforts or simply disallows me to attack.
Any comments on my list are greatly appreciated, especially yours, crazy monkey.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Any reason for Fatal Frenzy over Rush of Blood? Both cost the same, have the same effect, and the same card time. Except, Rush of Blood doesn't force you to sacrifice your creatures afterwards, it's uncommon instead of rare (so it's cheaper and easier to get), and it's also from a much more recent set, so it's even easier for someone to have lying around.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I have no idea whatsoever as to how I did not read "and trample", lol. Thanks!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
-Goblin Marshal
-Rapacious One
-Blood Moon
-Seize the Day
+Empty the Warrens
+Krenko's Command
+Hordeling Outburst
+Dragon Fodder
This made such a difference on so many ways. It lowered the mana curve, it lowered the deck's price, and the deck also ran more consistently. As much as I'm sad to swap out Seize the Day, the fact is that I produce so many tokens that I only really need one combat step - sometimes not even that if I have Purphoros in play. The only downside to this deck is that when it goes off, you're basically playing solitaire with spectators as your opponents observe your inevitable victory. Quite the thing to say for a R deck! It also produces mana on levels rivalling G - I'd say even more!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
That's an interesting blend of midranged and a more storm list. Do you frequently end your turn with an over-full hand? I'm surprised at the 3 cards to prevent discarding. It seems likely that those could swap other to cards that would better facilitate trying to push kills through that turn. Your higher manacurve may prevent that, I suppose.
While I'm on the topic of manacurve, the card I miss the most is possibility storm. If you're willing to go in on triggering Zada with a higher manacurve then it can be an incredibly powerful way to double up on triggers. Alternatively, the previous suggestion of flameshadow conjuring may work better for you (it looks like it may be some excellent synergy with cloudstone curio) than it would have for me. The potential added benefit could be infinite mana and tokens with conjouring, cloudstone curio and priest of urabrask, if that's something that interests you.
The four cards that you cut are, as you noted, excellent with flashback and good synergy with young pyromancer. An early storm turn is heavily dependent on having a critical mass of creatures early, and cheap sources of multiple creatures allow for those early explosive turns.
I'm somewhat confused by pyreheart wolf, that seems like it doesn't have a large impact. I've also not been to impressed by assault strobe. I also believe that haze of rage is typically more effective than seething anger as long as you can hit a reasonable storm count, which usually isn't that difficult.
The Purphoros interaction is effective, but the mana cost is slightly too high a cost for me, but it's a powerful effect to be sure.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Thanks for the reply!
I guess you're right on Pyreheart Wolf; it's a remnant of the original build I was working on when Zada was first spoiled. But spells with trample trumps a dog with menace - especially if you get more out of it with Zada. However, I would like to swap it out with a creature since having the deck heavier on creatures has been real key in the success of my build. Maybe I'll switch it out with Priest of Urabrask. Another good option is Treasonous Ogre for mana generation. Early to mid-game this can give me that extra mana needed to get that additional spell off.
What I don't like about Possibility Storm is the randomness. However, I do see the power in it. All the copies are still cast and only the original spell is shuffled. Then, the new spell is cast so it still triggers Zada, effectively getting 2 spells for one. I may look into that.
Flameshadow Conjuring was also something I was considering but I cut it because it basically made all my creatures cost R more and I honestly don't need to make that many tokens, the deck makes enough as is - even rivaling GW decks!
Assault Strobe hasn't been cut because it always does it for me. Early game it's super clutch and when against people who're bentic level pillowfort, that one or two stragglers with doublestrike that can push through really make the difference. You're right on Haze of Rage, though. My storm count does get ridiculously high. Empty the Warrens has seen that as well.
The reason I keep the 3 cards that prevent discard is because Fog effects are a thing in EDH. If I can't get the kill because damage is prevented or reduced to 0, I just lost all those spells and then my hand save for 7 cards. At least, if for some improbable reason I can fish out Purphoros, God of the Forge in the first 40 cards, I don't lose my hand. Sometimes I do a lot of mega cantripping goldfishing but I don't want to lose my hand. At least I can get a card to keep my hand once every 33 cards (probabilistically speaking).
Your build just dives in there straight to the point. But I do guess that 4-5th turn in a monoR like this one can be considered mid-range, lol.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The other way I prefer is to prevent the damage prevention. Instead of keeping my cards and waiting for my next turn, I would instead run Flaring Pain, Unstable Footing, Wild Slash, etc. It's a big fat "No, sir, I am winning now" to their fog effect.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Do you find you just hold back Zada until you can more or less when then unleash him?
How often do you just spam cantrips for value as opposed to just trying to outright KO people?
Is it even possible to win without Zada?
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
Well, you don't want to "just spam cantrips" because you could deck yourself. There's a cycle of cantrips for drawing cards, rituals for mana to keep going, and creature production before doing all the buffs and whatnot in order to swing, but you just have to do your math and be careful. Also, a lot of what we do on the storm turn is only until end of turn, so if you can't completely go off (like if you don't hit any rituals), it's better to stop trying to go off and wait for next turn than to do as much as you can only to become the target.
Might become the target just because of the first cantrip, though. People who aren't familiar with Zada tend not to think of the cantrips because all those cards are dismissed out of hand for pretty much every other EDH deck. So then that ridiculous card advantage makes them feel very threatened, because you can dig for stuff better than most for very little mana. In red.
Only if your opponents are mana-screwed and can't stop several smallish creatures and tokens from hitting them over and over. It's very difficult to do anything without her, though I have had to use a couple cantrips on other creatures to get a couple tokens and try to dig for a card (but I held one back).
I recommend reading through the thread if you have the time. It'll teach a lot about piloting it.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
That's very true. Sometimes it's easy to forget amongst a field full of tokens that you can use Siege-Gang Commander and that buttload of mana to kill players on the field. This also gets around pillowforts, cards that prevent combat steps, etc. Either way, adding cards that prevent damage prevention should also kinda be a no-brainer as well. I could probably swap those in instead of the discard prevention. Other problems I've found is cards like Kismet, Frozen Æther, Blind Obedience, etc. which don't allow me to attack the same turn my creatures come into play (which can still be circumvented by Siege-Gang Commander sacrificing goblins). One reason I'm considering adding cards like Act of Treason and the like. But I don't know if doing so reduces efficiency (even though Act of Treason also pretty much gives haste and +1/+1). What do you think?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The reason I've considered act of treason, or more accurately played portent of betrayal for a couple months, was because of the ability to untap krenko, mob boss, while also providing scry. Cards like unwilling recruit, threaten, and more have a place in Zada, especially if you're tutoring Krenko often, or your playing creatures with tap abilities (iron myr, spikeshot goblin).
As to how I deal with fogs, deflecting palms and other disruption: I try to play around them. This can leave me in a situation with now outs, but that's very unlikely and has only happened once. In my build, I want as high a density of creature sources, cantrips, and rituals as can reasonably be achieved, and I didn't want to run cards that might be dead draws while I storm.
As I've said before, this is only one of my 32 decks, and I play this deck in my group about once or twice a week. I'm okay with occasional blowouts, and my playgroup (which does not have much fast combo) is okay with Zada jumping in for an under 30 minute game. It's a trade off, and that feeling of constantly being on the edge of failure/success that I get really fits the theme of the deck. This is all, of course, personal preference.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
While testing, I've found that there are some cantrips which are kinda awful and very situational. I've found myself preferring to run cards like Zap over Aleatory simply because I can draw the moment I cast the spell and don't have to be limited to doing this crazy hijinxes in battle only. I also removed Chaotic Strike but left Panic simply because it costs R.
Going the token route has been really successful for me because I fill the field very quickly with creatures with helps with the cantrips, Battle Hymn, or simply amassing a Lord of the Rings level army of goblins. This gives me some flexibility in how to pilot the deck as well.
Your idea is genius and I'm glad to have based my deck off it. However, as you said, personal preferences will ultimately finish polishing the deck. The Zada Cantrip concept with abusing arcane is still there. So thanks for that.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I want to point more towards dropping balduvian rage instead of chaotic strike. Both have some tight timing restrictions, but chaotic strike provides cards that same turn, allowing for a second main phase storm off, or in your build perhaps a higher likelihood for a Purphoros kill.
Going deep into tokens also makes skirk prospector and phyrexian altar into good rituals to keep everything paid for at what's typically low losts in tokens.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Notable additions:
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Land
18 Mountain
1 Dwarven Ruins
1 Jund Panorama
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Evolving Wilds
1 City of Traitors
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Kher Keep
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper
1 Sandstone Needle
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Cavern of Souls
Creatures
1 Priest of Urabrask
1 Dragon Fodder
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Krenko's Command
1 Beetleback Chief
1 Molten Birth
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tempt with Vengeance
1 Guttersnipe
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Hordeling Outburst
1 Mogg Alarm
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Ringleader
1 Heat Shimmer
1 Twinflame
Mana
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Brightstone Ritual
1 Thought Vessel
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Rite of Flame
1 Battle Hymn
1 Iron Myr
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Seething Song
1 Inner Fire
1 Plague Myr
1 Sol Ring
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Mind Stone
1 Fractured Powerstone
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Unstable Obelisk
1 Fire Diamond
1 Mana Geyser
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Seer's Lantern
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Infernal Plunge
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Ruby Medallion
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Accelerate
1 Chaotic Strike
1 Stun
1 Boiling Blood
1 Expedite
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Panic
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Skullclamp
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tormenting Voice
Flashback
1 Past in Flames
1 Recoup
Tutors
1 Goblin Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Gamble
Pump
1 Reckless Charge
1 Blazing Shoal
1 Brute Strength
1 Fists of the Anvil
1 Titan's Strength
1 Balduvian Rage
1 Haze of Rage
1 Rouse the Mob
Other
1 Strionic Resonator