Thank you for taking the time to look over this decklist. This is my take on Commander 2015's Meren of Clan Nel Toth. My deck is primarily focused on looping creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder with Meren for value, building up for the long game, and it has a lot of focus on synergy. That said, Meren is extremely flexible as a commander and can support several different types of decks, so don't feel limited by my card choices.
This deck was originally created by modifying my mono black Balthor the Defiled deck. While I did find Balthor to be an extremely fun and splashy general, I was really looking for more of a gradual build, rather than trying to reanimate as many creatures in one go as possible for the win. As soon as Meren was spoiled, I immediately started drafting up different deck ideas, as she perfectly fit in to the kind of deck I'd been looking for.
Rather than modify the precon deck, I started drafting up my own list so that I could start from the theme I wanted, rather than trying to morph and existing deck to fit that theme. However, Meren has a very large list of playable cards, and it took several months to really narrow the deck down to a core list. I does share a lot of similarities with my older Balthor deck, but they both play quite differently, but I've loved Meren ever since the deck's creation.
I will do my best to briefly cover to other playstyles outside my own, but please keep in mind that this is largely centered around my own list. Feel free to let me know if you see anything that I've missed, or just have comments or suggestions in general!
Meren was born and raised in Jund, belonging to the shard's shamanistic Circle of Nel Toth, one of the many clans that inhabited the shard. She was trained as a Shaman, focusing on life and elemental binding to survive in the harsh landscape. At the age of twelve, she underwent the 'Dreamfire Ritual', where she was put in a race against time to bind an elemental and then cleanse the dreamfire poison in her system. Things when horribly wrong when the attacked her during her attempts to bind it, and she resorted to death magic, something new that had entered Jund from the Conflux of Alara.
She was cast out by her clan and left to die, her own mentor condemning her as an abomination. However, Meren was a survivor and she made it to shelter, despite being severely wounded in her fight with the elemental, and fighting off the poison in her system. She used her new-found powers to cleanse the poison, and then slowly made her way in to Grixis after healing. Over the years she learned to master her power and even fought the necromancers of the shard until she felt strong enough to return to her old home. With a resurrected dragon that she named Skaal Kesh and an ever growing army of undead, she rained vengeance down upon her former clansmates and mentor, becoming the Last of Clan Nel Toth before vowing to conquer the rest of Jund.
As a general, Meren has a large variety of potential builds, ranging from attrition decks centered around looping small ETB/death effects for value over a long game, to a stax style of deck meant to lock opponents down while you recur your resources. At 2BG for a 3/4, she has a decent cost and body, giving you a couple of early turns to set up a sacrifice engine before she hits the board while still getting her out fairly early in the game.
Her first ability, 'Whenever another creature you control dies, you get an experience counter' sets up an easy condition to meet for BG decks. You'll want to make sure your deck has ample ways of ensuring that creatures make their way in to the grave yard, both by including creatures that can sacrifice either themselves or another creature for an effect (such as Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sidisi, Undead Vizier), and by including other sacrifice outlets in the deck (such as Viscera Seer or Greater Good).
Those experience counters turn in to repeated value with Meren's second ability, which lets you target a creature in your graveyard and either return it to play if it has a converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of experience counters you have, or to your hand if it's more. While getting a creature a turn back in to play with Meren is extremely good value, it's important that you're able to return them to your hand as well, as it overcomes one of the weaknesses that can come from using experience counters, where a general might not work if you can't find a way to generate their counters with your current hand. This second ability lends itself to putting a lot of creatures with enter the battlefield triggers in the deck, because you can repeatedly use them. It also lets you get around some stax engines, by breaking their symmetry and letting you keep permanents while your opponents have to sacrifice them.
It should be noted that experience counters are attached to you, and not to Meren, so you won't lose them if she leaves the battlefield. However, she is vulnerable to removal as you need her in play in order to generate experience counters and to benefit from her reanimation engine.
You like attrition decks. This deck spends the majority of its time looping smaller creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder for repeated value with Meren's ability. While there are faster reanimator iterations of Meren lists, she tends to push you towards a more attrition based play style.
You like graveyard based strategies. Meren spends a lot of time focusing on the graveyard, both with sacrificing creatures for experience counters and reanimating them to reuse them.
You enjoy active decks. While it may promote a slower play style, this isn't really a draw and go type of deck. You'll always want to be casting or reanimating cards, and using your creatures, setting up sacrifice outlets, etc.
You enjoy having your general be an integral part of your deck. While you won't be crippled without Meren with the right support cards, she works better when she's actually in play accumulating experience counters and returning creatures from the graveyard.
You like fast strategies. You could put together a reasonably fast reanimator variant of Meren that looks to combo out quickly, but you're limiting yourself on combos that other similar generals like Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord could offer you.
You enjoy draw-go play styles. If you're not active, then you're not racking up experience counters. There is something to be said for a weird deck based around returning effects like Faerie Macabre to your hand without ever getting a single counter, but you'd be limiting a lot of your options just by card pool alone.
You play in a competitive meta. Most Meren decks can hold their own fairly well, but she's not a tier one deck by any means in most iterations. There are metas where you could make her work, but your average Meren deck (and this list in particular) likely isn't equipped for that sort of play.
In the section, I'm going to briefly cover the other popular graveyard generals. While there are many potential generals for a graveyard-based deck, I'm going to focus on the more popular choices that are more similar to Meren:
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Jarad is an extremely strong commander, and gives you access to a sacrifice outlet from the command zone, opposite of Meren's recursion ability. He often tends to lend himself more to a combo deck or a more traditional reanimator deck by focusing on bringing back larger bombs early rather than the more attrition style Meren usually encourages. They do have a lot of overlap as far as decks go, however so it's largely up to personal preference if you really want to run one over the other, due to their similarities.
Razzliox has a good, albeit very cutthroat primer for Jarad that can be found here.
Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest - Mazirek brings something new to Golgari's kit: sacrificing for aggro. He often encourages token swarm lists alongside cards like fetch lands, as well as comboing off with persist creatures. Generally, you'll want him to helm a deck where you at least have several creatures that will be sticking around, rather than trying to constantly recycle all of them in addition to wanting other permanents that can sacrifice themselves for counters.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - Savra tends to run an extremely similar list to an attrition-focused Meren deck, however she doesn't actually provide you with an engine from the command zone. She merely gives you a bonus when you have one going, which can make games difficult where you don't draw correctly.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped - Varolz decks focus on dumping the biggest amount of power for the least amount of mana in the graveyard, in order to create a voltron effect for the win. He tends to focus more on using cards like Phyrexian Dreadnought and Force of Savagery to beef up something with infect or a similar effect rather than acting as a recursion deck.
Chainer, Dementia Master - Chainer is the general most people tend to think of when they hear reanimator: He can get you back any bomb for a cheap cost. While an incredibly strong deck in it's own right, it doesn't tend to play well with attrition style lists, and even in other builds that you would see with Meren, you lose a color in exchange for the repeatable reanimation.
Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Karador is an extremely similar general while also giving you cost reduction from the command zone and access to a third color that also has strong options for recursion. The trade off is that while he shares the typical, 'one creature per turn' restriction with Meren, you have to pay mana for each creature you want to use him to reanimate. While both similar, Karador is a good choice if you want to branch out into a third color, but Meren is better if you want to stay focused with two core colors, or can't support the mana base for three.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - Tasigur has a few good things going for him: He gives you a way to stock your graveyard, can return cards to your had for reuse, and delve gives you a good source of cost reduction, often making him cost one mana. He's a popular general for control shells, and he makes a good general for a reanimator build (especially with access to blue as a third color), but he plays an extremely political game that can easily backfire if you're not careful.
Dies_to_Doom_Blade has a competitive variate of the list in his primer, which can be found here.
Sedris, the Traitor King - With Sedris, you exchange green for UR. With enough mana, you can set up big plays but it can be tricky to use his ability and not lose the unearthed creatures permanently. While the colors are vastly different, he can be an interesting alternative to Meren, though you're looking at a more swingy deck, rather than an attrition based one.
ZenN has a primer for a build around this general that can be found here.
I physically put the deck together, and swapped around some of the mainboard and maybeboard cards. I switched out cards like Sepulchral Primordial that I've played with in similar decks before and know I enjoy, and swapped around cards to include things like Lightning Greaves for better utility, as well as some repeatable card draw for Meren. I'm also switching Wood Elves for Farhaven Elf. Until I can get more dual lands with multiple basic land types, I think that searching for basics will be better for me in the long run.
I picked up a Bayou when their price dropped, so that's a new include. I did find a spot for birthing pod, and I'm pulling Bellower out, as I haven't loved it and I at least wanted two seven drops for Birthing Pod, so Sepulchral Primordial is coming back in to the list.
A lot of these changes may seem a little odd, but the goal was to get some diversity in the kinds of creatures I was running. With this change, I'm adding fogs, discard, grave hate which makes other decks easier to deal with and gives me a wider range of answers to use with Meren. I've also picked up a second copy of Mana Crypt to add to this deck that I plan to try out and see if the upkeep cost is too detrimental to a slower deck.
Birthing Pod has to be in, right? It seems absurdly good with the Commander. I am currently working on a decklist so I will try to get back to you with more ideas once I have done that.
The faerie is an interesting idea. Unfortunately, it only works when you have two or less experience counters. Assuming I read her ability correctly, it's not a may.
Dawntreader Elk is interesting, though it doesn't necessarily have to be fast, I'd rather let things die when Meren is in play, but I'll put it in the maybeboard and see which I like better.
Biggest issue I see with Xiahou Dun is that he can only interact with black cards. I'll play around with it though.
The Ritual is... interesting, to say the least. O.o
Birthing Pod has to be in, right? It seems absurdly good with the Commander. I am currently working on a decklist so I will try to get back to you with more ideas once I have done that.
Sure, pod is great. But at the moment, I have a giant gaping hole in my four drops, so I want to at least add a couple more in before I add Pod. I probably would just want to clean up my curve as well.
Pattern of Rebirth and Nether Traitor are some cards that I would play. Also, Catacomb Sifter seems unspectacular, but is pretty in decks focused on saccing. Deathreap Ritual is another card that isn't seen very often, but is most of the time a better Arena for 1 mana more.
Other than that I can't think of a 'missing' card right now, since your list looks already pretty solid and complete.
The faerie is an interesting idwa. Unfortunately, it only works when you have two or more experience counters. Assuming I read her ability correctly, it's not a may.
Meren's ability has you choose the creature separate from the experience counter part of the ability. You choose the creature. Then you check to see if you have enough experience counters, then if so, put it into play. If not, it goes back to your hand. Which then allows you to discard it again and target your graveyard hate.
I'm also thinking about building a Meren deck, dumping my Jarad deck which everyone in my play group knows well enough that I can't win often with it anymore, so I'll be watching your endeavors, I like the list.
Shriekmaw, Bone Shredder, and Vulturous Aven seem like good inclusions. All have good effects and all sacrifice themselves to give experience counters.
The faerie is an interesting idwa. Unfortunately, it only works when you have two or more experience counters. Assuming I read her ability correctly, it's not a may.
Meren's ability has you choose the creature separate from the experience counter part of the ability. You choose the creature. Then you check to see if you have enough experience counters, then if so, put it into play. If not, it goes back to your hand. Which then allows you to discard it again and target your graveyard hate.
I'm also thinking about building a Meren deck, dumping my Jarad deck which everyone in my play group knows well enough that I can't win often with it anymore, so I'll be watching your endeavors, I like the list.
I think he meant to say two or less. It would be very interesting if you could return Faerie Macabre to your hand while you had three or more experience counters though.
Pattern of Rebirth and Nether Traitor are some cards that I would play. Also, Catacomb Sifter seems unspectacular, but is pretty in decks focused on saccing. Deathreap Ritual is another card that isn't seen very often, but is most of the time a better Arena for 1 mana more.
Other than that I can't think of a 'missing' card right now, since your list looks already pretty solid and complete.
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll add them into the maybeboard, and start playtesting them when I get the list together.
The faerie is an interesting idwa. Unfortunately, it only works when you have two or more experience counters. Assuming I read her ability correctly, it's not a may.
Meren's ability has you choose the creature separate from the experience counter part of the ability. You choose the creature. Then you check to see if you have enough experience counters, then if so, put it into play. If not, it goes back to your hand. Which then allows you to discard it again and target your graveyard hate.
I'm also thinking about building a Meren deck, dumping my Jarad deck which everyone in my play group knows well enough that I can't win often with it anymore, so I'll be watching your endeavors, I like the list.
I think she meant to say two or less. It would be very interesting if you could return Faerie Macabre to your hand while you had three or more experience counters though.
I did mean less, thank you. I am not fantastic at typing out responses while on mobile.
Shriekmaw, Bone Shredder, and Vulturous Aven seem like good inclusions. All have good effects and all sacrifice themselves to give experience counters.
To the maybeboard with them! I can't believe I forgot to put Shriekmaw in...
I'm also thinking about building a Meren deck, dumping my Jarad deck which everyone in my play group knows well enough that I can't win often with it anymore, so I'll be watching your endeavors, I like the list.
Well, I got the okay to use her before she's released, so now it's just a matter of converting my Balthor deck over to two colors. And thanks!
I've been very interested in converting my Shattergang deck over to Meren. I definitely enjoy the Grave Pact locks, sac effects, and abusing ETB and LTB effects. To that end, I recommend creatures who tutor like Wood Elves, Sylvan Ranger, Farhaven Elf and Yavimaya Elder to fetch lands rather than spells, since they can be used to gain EXP counters and fodder for Evolutionary Leap.
I've been unimpressed with Genesis, but my biggest beef with this archetype is not enough card draw, card quality, and the ability to recover from board wipes. This general helps immensely with that. Genesis can help, but he is expensive for his ability, and puts more eyes on gravehate.
Blood Artist seems obvious here. I'd throw him in the mainboard. Reassembling Skeleton is also a little expensive, but is easily abused with Skullclamp and friends. Creakwood Leige is a cheap 4 drop for Birthing Pod and makes bodies quickly, and buffs them up. Lorwyn Garruk can help with ramping, making bodies, but most importantly, overrunning a player. If you're using Mike, then Spike Feeder seems obvious, and is 3 mana for another EXP counter like other creatures, but gains 4 life each time you abuse it without Mike. with him, it helps you avoid alot of win conditions.Phyrexian Obliterator, while difficult to cast, is a good 4 drop that dissuades attacking you.
Onto 5CMC+, Thragtusk offers additional bodies and life. I feel it's a bit winmore, and doesnt do much else. But Archfiend of Depravity has been an all star for me. Sadly it's at EOT, so one could still overwhelm you with tokens, but it helps reign in other token decks. It's utterly devastating to many meta decks and I cant recommend it enough. Deranged Hermit makes doods and then can die for a counter. Bane of Progress is a reset button I usually tutor up when Enchantress decks or stax decks start to get out of control. Avenger of Zenkidar is another I really like that synergizes with all the early ramp creatures and gives them value in the late game if you return them to play. So does Bloodghast.
Also, in this deck, Wake the Dead seems obvious for all the ETB/LTB effects we have. It also creates blockers in a pinch, but most importantly, you pay X to get X EXP counters. Grim Feast, if lifegain is a problem at all, is good for the Maybeboard. Pattern of Rebirth helps tutor out early fatties by doing what we want to do to begin with.
Smokestacks and Ward of Bones just help provide more board control. Stax helps us gain counters and abuse our triggers better while keeping their board clear. Nothing more nice to see than it and Archfiend keeping players in check, and if you get Ward too? Someone please help them!
Outside of the cards I already own, the following are good possibilities
I personally really like Deadbridge here. Fauna has never impressed me much, especially since we have no way to grand her haste, and just how expensive her ability is. Living Death doesnt impress me much either. It, like scrap mastery in daretti, is too situational. Buried Alive is huge. Savra, Queen of the Golgari helps gain life and can help as a gravepact effect on a creature. The Aven was mentioned above. I really hate small effects like this (and the draw spell in your list), but I cant help but really prefer Aven over Altar's Reap, given it can be returned to play to draw us some cards, which isnt bd at all. However, being an instant, it can save a creature from being Mind Controlled
I've been very interested in converting my Shattergang deck over to Meren. I definitely enjoy the Grave Pact locks, sac effects, and abusing ETB and LTB effects. To that end, I recommend creatures who tutor like Wood Elves, Sylvan Ranger, Farhaven Elf and Yavimaya Elder to fetch lands rather than spells, since they can be used to gain EXP counters and fodder for Evolutionary Leap.
I'm running a couple of the ones you mentioned. I'm not a huge fan of Sylvan Ranger, but Farhaven Elf is a definite potential include.
I've been unimpressed with Genesis, but my biggest beef with this archetype is not enough card draw, card quality, and the ability to recover from board wipes. This general helps immensely with that. Genesis can help, but he is expensive for his ability, and puts more eyes on gravehate.
I like it, but in my experience, I'm already going to be a target for grave hate, as there aren't many reanimator decks in my play group. But, Meren is likely going to bit the dust, and I like having options for back up. I suppose I could consider using Phyrexian Reclamation in it's place, but I'd rather keep some contingency plans in the deck.
Blood Artist seems obvious here. I'd throw him in the mainboard. Reassembling Skeleton is also a little expensive, but is easily abused with Skullclamp and friends.
I'm already running Reassembling Skeleton, but think of the maybe board essentially as cards that are (or will be, at some point) in the main deck. I just had to cut it down to 100 to start with, but I'm actually going shuffle the deck around quite a bit at first.
gCreakwood Leige is a cheap 4 drop for Birthing Pod and makes bodies quickly, and buffs them up. Lorwyn Garruk can help with ramping, making bodies, but most importantly, overrunning a player. If you're using Mike, then Spike Feeder seems obvious, and is 3 mana for another EXP counter like other creatures, but gains 4 life each time you abuse it without Mike. with him, it helps you avoid alot of win conditions.Phyrexian Obliterator, while difficult to cast, is a good 4 drop that dissuades attacking you.
Currently, the four drops I'm really looking at are Spike Weaver, Dimir House Guard, Wickerbough Elder, Graveborn Muse, Mind Slicer, Entomber Exarch, and Vulturous Aven. I won't put all of them in the list, there really just isn't room, but I think that gives me a pretty wide range of flexibility for different kinds of effects. Creakwood Liege is interesting though. I'll have to think on Garruk Wildspeaker though, I'm going to have problems fitting everything I want into the list. Lastly, I'd probably prefer Phyrexian Obliterator in a lure deck, it dies pretty quickly without doing much from what I've seen of other people using it in my playgroup.
Onto 5CMC+, Thragtusk offers additional bodies and life. I feel it's a bit winmore, and doesnt do much else. But Archfiend of Depravity has been an all star for me. Sadly it's at EOT, so one could still overwhelm you with tokens, but it helps reign in other token decks. It's utterly devastating to many meta decks and I cant recommend it enough. Deranged Hermit makes doods and then can die for a counter. Bane of Progress is a reset button I usually tutor up when Enchantress decks or stax decks start to get out of control. Avenger of Zenkidar is another I really like that synergizes with all the early ramp creatures and gives them value in the late game if you return them to play. So does Bloodghast.
Avenger of Zendikar could be a nice potential add. Somewhat difficult to find room for.
Also, in this deck, Wake the Dead seems obvious for all the ETB/LTB effects we have. It also creates blockers in a pinch, but most importantly, you pay X to get X EXP counters. Grim Feast, if lifegain is a problem at all, is good for the Maybeboard. Pattern of Rebirth helps tutor out early fatties by doing what we want to do to begin with.
I like Wake the Dead, it seems interesting. I do have pattern of Rebirth in my maybeboard, I'll look in to Grim Feast if my life total seems to be a problem. The deck that's really dangerous (as far as quickly dropping my life total goes) in my group is Heartless Hidetsugu, and I'm not sure it can keep up quickly enough for that, however.
Smokestacks and Ward of Bones just help provide more board control. Stax helps us gain counters and abuse our triggers better while keeping their board clear. Nothing more nice to see than it and Archfiend keeping players in check, and if you get Ward too? Someone please help them!
I'm just going to disclaimer this now: I hate stax. Grave Pact type effects and some discard are about as far as I'll go, and even then, I prefer not to go too heavy on those kinds of effects. I hate playing against them, I would be pretty hypocritical to turn around and start doing it to others.
Outside of the cards I already own, the following are good possibilities
I personally really like Deadbridge here. Fauna has never impressed me much, especially since we have no way to grand her haste, and just how expensive her ability is. Living Death doesnt impress me much either. It, like scrap mastery in daretti, is too situational. Buried Alive is huge. Savra, Queen of the Golgari helps gain life and can help as a gravepact effect on a creature. The Aven was mentioned above. I really hate small effects like this (and the draw spell in your list), but I cant help but really prefer Aven over Altar's Reap, given it can be returned to play to draw us some cards, which isnt bd at all. However, being an instant, it can save a creature from being Mind Controlled
I'm running Fauna Shaman and Buried Alive already. I'll think about Savra, but I haven't liked her before in similar decks. Deadbridge is probably going to come down to finding room for it, but I do like the card. Vulturous Aven is already up for playtesting in my maybeboard, and I am also not super impressed by Living Death in most decks I've tried it in.
I really do appreciate the suggestions. I should mention that my maybeboard isn't really a standard maybe board, but I wanted to cut the deck down to 100 cards to have a starting point, and the maybeboard is pretty much just cards I am going to also playtest (with the exception of Mana Crypt, because I only own one, and it's more about deciding if it's worth it to take it out of another deck for this one).
Understandable! I definitely like most of those four drop options, and will have to find room for them myself. For me, finding and landing a gravepact and getting it to go off is difficult unless youre already ahead, so Stax were there just to help slow the opponents down or to play poltics. Ward of Bones is amazing for politics, especially if folks are afraid of Oloro/Zedruu/prison decks, and they'll happily play around it until its time to nuke it. Fine with me!
I think I'll drop Genesis from mine and go for Phyrexian Reclaimation. It's faster, but eats our life total.
I also mistakenly overlooked one of my favorite cards! Tortured Existence. Dump a creature we can reanimate to nab one back we cannot. Or one we NEED to cast now for one we can settle to get back EOT.
Understandable! I definitely like most of those four drop options, and will have to find room for them myself.
Yeah, this deck is going top be difficult to narrow down. Unfortunately, there isn't enough room to run everything I want.
For me, finding and landing a gravepact and getting it to go off is difficult unless youre already ahead, so Stax were there just to help slow the opponents down or to play poltics. Ward of Bones is amazing for politics, especially if folks are afraid of Oloro/Zedruu/prison decks, and they'll happily play around it until its time to nuke it. Fine with me!
While I do understand that it's a super useful tool (and props to those who enjoy it), it's just not a style I really like playing with our against. It's honestly just a personal preference.
I think I'll drop Genesis from mine and go for Phyrexian Reclaimation. It's faster, but eats our life total.
I'll play around with both and see which one ends up being more useful in the long run. There is currently a lot of enchantment removal in my play group, and not a lot of grave hate, which is why I lean towards Genesis, but that could always change!
I also mistakenly overlooked one of my favorite cards! Tortured Existence. Dump a creature we can reanimate to nab one back we cannot. Or one we NEED to cast now for one we can settle to get back EOT.
I like the effect. Still, you guys are killing me. I only get 100 cards!
Harvester is a bit of a cost and space issue, especially when I have multiple cards I'd like to add, but I'll see what I can do when I actually start messing with the main deck composition (hopefully that will be today, but that comes down to how much time I have).
For Slum Rapper, I already have two similar effects at three mana, so I think I'll hold of on it unless I feel I really need more redundancy on the effect.
Big Game Hunter is investing, though I think I'd want to find room for something like Shriekmaw first.
Shriekmaw + Tortured Existance seems fun Big game can also be used to hit things other than Prophet. In fact, those three together is hilarious. 1B for Shriekmaw, EXP counter as it dies, destroy a dude. Then Tortured Existance for B to exchange Big Game with Shriekmaw. Play B for his Madness cost, kill another creature and have a body.
Priest of the Bloodrite seems like it might be solid here. You probably have enough sac-outlets that he won't cost you life. Kinda vanilla, but solid with enough experience counters because it will turn into Bitterblossom with 5/5 fliers... which I'd love to have around.
For the LftL packages... nop. LftL is an amazing card on its own, but all the cars that go with it are bad on their own.... Dakmor Salvage is a bad swamp, raven's crime is not wors the slot... each of thos card that you draw will just do nothing but waiting a potential LftL.
An other advice: avoid the trap of the all dredge or all graveyard plan. The more full your graveyard is, the sensitive it is to grave-hate. just have what you need in it, no more. Deadbridge Chant, Splinterfright are some of those traps.
For the LftL packages... nop. LftL is an amazing card on its own, but all the cars that go with it are bad on their own.... Dakmor Salvage is a bad swamp, raven's crime is not wors the slot... each of thos card that you draw will just do nothing but waiting a potential LftL.
An other advice: avoid the trap of the all dredge or all graveyard plan. The more full your graveyard is, the sensitive it is to grave-hate. just have what you need in it, no more. Deadbridge Chant, Splinterfright are some of those traps.
I agree with Scoup, that Dredge cards are just bad on their own. If you want to use the LftL engine, use Bloodghast, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Fetchlands, etc. Things that you can actual abuse with it. Golgari Grave Troll is the best one of the bunch for this strategy. Spore Frog is just amazing here as well.
I just want to mention, if Graveyard hate isn't prevalent in your meta, by all means, go ahead and run with a Dredge and Graveyard based build. But one Bojuka Bog and your engine is completely turned off. Even worse if someone plays Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace. Sure, you can claim you'll have removal in hand, but it can be countered... I just think going all in on any general and being very transparent about it, is just asking to be shut out of the game. I'm not a fan :). Have multiple angles of attacking. For example, OP focuses alot on sacrificing creatures for value, and then using the General's EOT trigger to just grab those creatures back.
Deadbridge is about the only "Fill up the graveyard" spell I'd consider running if I needed a way to recover from grave hate, in any case, as it's very similar to what our general does (and could grab us back some other neat things as well), without being nigh worthless on its own like Ravens Crime and other Dredge cards can be.
I really wasn't expecting this thread to get as much attention as it has! O.o I'll respond as best I can, and if I miss something, I apologize. Mobile sucks. >.<
Shriekmaw + Tortured Existance seems fun Big game can also be used to hit things other than Prophet. In fact, those three together is hilarious. 1B for Shriekmaw, EXP counter as it dies, destroy a dude. Then Tortured Existance for B to exchange Big Game with Shriekmaw. Play B for his Madness cost, kill another creature and have a body.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to play around with the deck composition to include at least a little bit of recurrable removal. Unfortunately, I was pretty busy this weekend and didn't have a chance to finish digging all of the cards out of my collection.
Priest of the Blood Rite seems like it might be solid here. You probably have enough sac-outlets that he won't cost you life. Kinda vanilla, but solid with enough experience counters because it will turn into Bitterblossom with 5/5 fliers... which I'd love to have around.
I'll have to throw the priest into the maybeboard. I'm not a fan of Garruk Relentless, because he tends to be difficult to flip, and keep on field. I just haven't had much success with him in other decks that I've attempted to play him in.
I was looking for some little advice on Meren of Clan Nel Toth and here we are! I see some very good ideas, thank you very much! As for me, some other cards I considered are: Varolz, the Scar-Striped: triple utility as a sac outlet, scavenger and "graveyard garbage man", in order to let you choose among the best creatures with cards like Deadbridge Chant. Boneyard Wurm and Splinterfright: self-mill seems a good strategy here (the Preconstructed deck already gives you cards in this direction), and both seem very good beeing so easy to put onto the battlefield again and again with Lady Skull. Raven's Crime, Worm Harvest, Dakmor Salvage and Life from the Loam: they go in the same direction and help to get a consistent and repeatable threat to the opponent's resources. Needless to say how perfectly Worm Harvest goes with Creakwood Liege!
What do you think about these ones?
There are definitely some interesting suggestions in here. I'll go through them some time when I'm not on my phone and start adding them to my test cards. I will say on Varolz, that having had him as a general, I've not had luck actually keeping creatures that I've scavenged on to alive, and because it's at sorcery speed, it can't even be used as a reaction to grave hate.
For the LftL packages... nop. LftL is an amazing card on its own, but all the cars that go with it are bad on their own.... Dakmor Salvage is a bad swamp, raven's crime is not wors the slot... each of thos card that you draw will just do nothing but waiting a potential LftL.
An other advice: avoid the trap of the all dredge or all graveyard plan. The more full your graveyard is, the sensitive it is to grave-hate. just have what you need in it, no more. Deadbridge Chant, Splinterfright are some of those traps.
I should point out that Recurring Nightmare is banned in multiplayer. That said, there are some good suggestions I'll have to look at, but I am not planning on converting this to a mana denial deck any time in the forseeable future. Thanks for the suggestions though!
strionic resonator would be a nice include I think. Double up her exp counters, double up her return.
I like the resonator. I'll see what I have that I can potentially cut for it once I get down to a more set list. I don't know that it quite does enough, however.
I agree with this line of thought. If Graveyard hate isn't prevalent in your meta, by all means, go ahead, but one Bojuka Bog and your engine is completely turned off. Deadbridge is about the only one I'd consider running if I needed a way to recover from grave hate, in any case, as it's similar to what our general does as is (and could grab us back some other neat things as well), without being nigh worthless on its own like Ravens Crime and other Dredge cards can be.
I agree on many of your wise points: I don't see it as a heavy dredge Commander, that was not my thought when I spoke about some of the cards you mention. I only think they're some good options in specific situations.
Oh, by the way, Woodland Bellower seems another good card here, the ability to tutor cheap utility creatures multiple times doesn't seem bad at all
No, and I don't plan on going all in on a dredge theme. There are better commanders for that. I'll drop Woodland Bellower in to the test list, though!
I agree with this line of thought. If Graveyard hate isn't prevalent in your meta, by all means, go ahead, but one Bojuka Bog and your engine is completely turned off. Deadbridge is about the only one I'd consider running if I needed a way to recover from grave hate, in any case, as it's similar to what our general does as is (and could grab us back some other neat things as well), without being nigh worthless on its own like Ravens Crime and other Dredge cards can be.
I agree on many of your wise points: I don't see it as a heavy dredge Commander, that was not my thought when I spoke about some of the cards you mention. I only think they're some good options in specific situations.
Oh, by the way, Woodland Bellower seems another good card here, the ability to tutor cheap utility creatures multiple times doesn't seem bad at all
No, and I don't plan on going all in on a dredge theme. There are better commanders for that. I'll drop Woodland Bellower in to the test list, though!
I appreciate all of the feedback.
I wasnt referring to you with that post, edited it later. I edited to say I prefer the route you're taking where you arent all-in on the commander's ability, but instread eek value out of sacrificing creatures, and use her to bring them back.
I wasnt referring to you with that post, edited it later. I edited to say I prefer the route you're taking where you arent all-in on the commander's ability, but instread eek value out of sacrificing creatures, and use her to bring them back.
I know, I was attempting to keep similar lines of thought together in my reply. I am not the best at formatting such a large post on mobile, however.
Here's the list I'm currently looking at. I've got a pretty big maybe board here, hoping to drop down that list. It's less about direction at this point, and more about what helps get me there Creature/Artifact/Enchantment wise. Tutors. Sac Outlets. Stax effects.
I threw things like Mycoloth into the maybeboard from the main. Same with Smokestax, Deathreap Ritual, Acidic Slime, etc. Many of these dont provide any immediate effect, or in the case of Slime, are too expensive for the cost. Caterpillar/Sage does the same thing for cheaper, and also can more easily be hardcast/returned to play early on. Deathreap was replaced by many other creatures like Disciple that do something immediately and not after I already can set up a board to benefit from it. Not that it is bad by any means, but it's 4CMC and slow. I want to move away from "Depend on me" cards outside of Grave Pact and Survival effects.
Evolutionary Leap is special. It replaced Birthing Pod! I just hate Birthing Pod. It plays nicely into finding Kukushko, but it's just too damn expensive to justify. While on the other hand, Leap reveals alot of information, and doesnt place the creature into play. But it's a cheap sac outlet. Both Pod and Leap both draw attention. Jarad's Orders I really like as an alternative to Pod at the same base cost. Puts things where we want them and doesnt draw as much hate nor put our eggies on one basket
Pattern of Rebirth is also pretty solid, works well with our strategy, great for finding an early Kukoshko/Gary. But i've also hated seeing it without a sac outlet. Black Market I want to use and make it work, but I'm not positive it's what we're looking for late game (outside of casting Decree of Pain).
Wincons: Garruk, Kokushko, Puppeteer Clique, Gary, Avenger, Pox (I want to make room for Jarad)
There's enough cards that can fit into a Meren deck that all of us are probably just going to have to make cuts based on personal preference, unfortunately. I do really like the idea of Awakening Zone though, I might have to change out Golgari Signet for it.
I've also been considering Corpse Augur and Woodland Bellower. Corpse Augur, in my group, seems like it will draw a solid amount of cards without potentially killing me, and I really like the Bellower, I just don't know how useful it will be in this style of deck in practice.
There's enough cards that can fit into a Meren deck that all of us are probably just going to have to make cuts based on personal preference, unfortunately. I do really like the idea of Awakening Zone though, I might have to change out Golgari Signet for it.
I've also been considering Corpse Augur and Woodlands Bellower. Corpse Augur, in my group, seems like it will draw a solid amount of cards without potentially killing me, and I really like the Bellower, I just don't know how useful it will be in this style of deck in practice.
I like Skullmuncher and Disciple of Bolas alot. I may need to drop Muncher for Augur or just use all 3. I'll add bellower to the list of high CMC cards to try.
Thank you for taking the time to look over this decklist. This is my take on Commander 2015's Meren of Clan Nel Toth. My deck is primarily focused on looping creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder with Meren for value, building up for the long game, and it has a lot of focus on synergy. That said, Meren is extremely flexible as a commander and can support several different types of decks, so don't feel limited by my card choices.
This deck was originally created by modifying my mono black Balthor the Defiled deck. While I did find Balthor to be an extremely fun and splashy general, I was really looking for more of a gradual build, rather than trying to reanimate as many creatures in one go as possible for the win. As soon as Meren was spoiled, I immediately started drafting up different deck ideas, as she perfectly fit in to the kind of deck I'd been looking for.
Rather than modify the precon deck, I started drafting up my own list so that I could start from the theme I wanted, rather than trying to morph and existing deck to fit that theme. However, Meren has a very large list of playable cards, and it took several months to really narrow the deck down to a core list. I does share a lot of similarities with my older Balthor deck, but they both play quite differently, but I've loved Meren ever since the deck's creation.
I will do my best to briefly cover to other playstyles outside my own, but please keep in mind that this is largely centered around my own list. Feel free to let me know if you see anything that I've missed, or just have comments or suggestions in general!
She was cast out by her clan and left to die, her own mentor condemning her as an abomination. However, Meren was a survivor and she made it to shelter, despite being severely wounded in her fight with the elemental, and fighting off the poison in her system. She used her new-found powers to cleanse the poison, and then slowly made her way in to Grixis after healing. Over the years she learned to master her power and even fought the necromancers of the shard until she felt strong enough to return to her old home. With a resurrected dragon that she named Skaal Kesh and an ever growing army of undead, she rained vengeance down upon her former clansmates and mentor, becoming the Last of Clan Nel Toth before vowing to conquer the rest of Jund.
As a general, Meren has a large variety of potential builds, ranging from attrition decks centered around looping small ETB/death effects for value over a long game, to a stax style of deck meant to lock opponents down while you recur your resources. At 2BG for a 3/4, she has a decent cost and body, giving you a couple of early turns to set up a sacrifice engine before she hits the board while still getting her out fairly early in the game.
Her first ability, 'Whenever another creature you control dies, you get an experience counter' sets up an easy condition to meet for BG decks. You'll want to make sure your deck has ample ways of ensuring that creatures make their way in to the grave yard, both by including creatures that can sacrifice either themselves or another creature for an effect (such as Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sidisi, Undead Vizier), and by including other sacrifice outlets in the deck (such as Viscera Seer or Greater Good).
Those experience counters turn in to repeated value with Meren's second ability, which lets you target a creature in your graveyard and either return it to play if it has a converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of experience counters you have, or to your hand if it's more. While getting a creature a turn back in to play with Meren is extremely good value, it's important that you're able to return them to your hand as well, as it overcomes one of the weaknesses that can come from using experience counters, where a general might not work if you can't find a way to generate their counters with your current hand. This second ability lends itself to putting a lot of creatures with enter the battlefield triggers in the deck, because you can repeatedly use them. It also lets you get around some stax engines, by breaking their symmetry and letting you keep permanents while your opponents have to sacrifice them.
It should be noted that experience counters are attached to you, and not to Meren, so you won't lose them if she leaves the battlefield. However, she is vulnerable to removal as you need her in play in order to generate experience counters and to benefit from her reanimation engine.
In the section, I'm going to briefly cover the other popular graveyard generals. While there are many potential generals for a graveyard-based deck, I'm going to focus on the more popular choices that are more similar to Meren:
4 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Creature (32)
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Spore Frog
1 Viscera Seer
2 Elvish Visionary
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
3 Eternal Witness
3 Farhaven Elf
3 Grim Haruspex
3 Merciless Executioner
3 Reclamation Sage
4 Agent of Erebos
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Mindslicer
4 Smothering Abomination
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Treasure Keeper
5 Acidic Slime
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Shriekmaw
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
6 Grave Titan
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Massacre Wurm
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
7 Protean Hulk
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
7 Sepulchral Primordial
8 Razaketh, the Foulblooded
8 Woodfall Primus
1 Reanimate
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Buried Alive
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Damnation
4 Jarad's Orders
4 Tempt with Discovery
7 Tooth and Nail
8 Decree of Pain
Enchantment (8)
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Awakening Zone
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Greater Good
5 Dictate of Erebos
Artifact (6)
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Phyrexian Altar
4 Birthing Pod
Instant (4)
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Beast Within
3 Krosan Grip
3 Liliana of the Veil
5 Liliana Vess
Land (37)
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Blighted Woodland
0 Cabal Coffers
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Command Tower
0 Grim Backwoods
0 High Market
0 Homeward Path
0 Overgrown Tomb
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Strip Mine
0 Tainted Wood
0 Temple of Malady
0 Twilight Mire
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Volrath's Stronghold
0 Woodland Cemetery
10x Swamp
9x Forest
4 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Ramp (9)
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Blighted Woodland
0 Cabal Coffers
1 Sol Ring
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Awakening Zone
3 Farhaven Elf
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Tempt with Discovery
Card Advantage (10)
1 Skullclamp
2 Elvish Visionary
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grim Haruspex
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Greater Good
4 Smothering Abomination
4 Treasure Keeper
Tutors (15)
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Survival of the Fittest
3 Buried Alive
4 Birthing Pod
4 Jarad's Orders
5 Liliana Vess
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
7 Protean Hulk
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
7 Tooth and Nail
9 Razaketh, the Foulblooded
0 Strip Mine
1 Caustic Caterpillar
3 Beast Within
3 Merciless Executioner
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Agent of Erebos
4 Damnation
5 Acidic Slime
5 Shriekmaw
6 Massacre Wurm
8 Decree of Pain
8 Woodfall Primus
Recursion (6)
0 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Reanimate
3 Eternal Witness
5 Puppeteer Clique
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
7 Sepulchral Primordial
Other Sac Outlets (5)
0 Grim Backwoods
0 High Market
0 Phyrexian Tower
1 Viscera Seer
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Phyrexian Altar
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Reliquary Tower
1 Spore Frog
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mindslicer
5 Dictate of Erebos
Other Creatures (4)
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Grave Titan
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
Non-Basic Land (8)
0 Command Tower
0 Homeward Path
0 Overgrown Tomb
0 Tainted Wood
0 Temple of Malady
0 Twilight Mire
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Woodland Cemetery
Basic Land (19)
10x Swamp
9x Forest
Out
Altar's Reap
Golgari Signet
Malicious Affliction
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Wood Elves
Sadistic Hypnotist
Sepulchral Primordial
In
Lightning Greaves
Awakening Zone
Farhaven Elf
Corpse Augur
Vulturous Aven
Shriekmaw
Woodland Bellower
I physically put the deck together, and swapped around some of the mainboard and maybeboard cards. I switched out cards like Sepulchral Primordial that I've played with in similar decks before and know I enjoy, and swapped around cards to include things like Lightning Greaves for better utility, as well as some repeatable card draw for Meren. I'm also switching Wood Elves for Farhaven Elf. Until I can get more dual lands with multiple basic land types, I think that searching for basics will be better for me in the long run.
1/19/2016
Out
Burnished Hart
Woodland Bellower
1x Swamp
In
Birthing Pod
Sepulchral Primordial
Bayou
I picked up a Bayou when their price dropped, so that's a new include. I did find a spot for birthing pod, and I'm pulling Bellower out, as I haven't loved it and I at least wanted two seven drops for Birthing Pod, so Sepulchral Primordial is coming back in to the list.
3/1/2016
Out
Reassembling Skeleton
Fleshbag Marauder
Yavimaya Elder
Corpse Augur
Oracle of Mul Daya
Genesis
Bitterblossom
Altar of Dementia
In
Caustic Caterpillar
Spore Frog
Elvish Visionary
Zulaport Cutthroat
Matter Reshaper
Agent of Erebos
Mindslicer
Mana Crypt
A lot of these changes may seem a little odd, but the goal was to get some diversity in the kinds of creatures I was running. With this change, I'm adding fogs, discard, grave hate which makes other decks easier to deal with and gives me a wider range of answers to use with Meren. I've also picked up a second copy of Mana Crypt to add to this deck that I plan to try out and see if the upkeep cost is too detrimental to a slower deck.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Dawntreader Elk is interesting, though it doesn't necessarily have to be fast, I'd rather let things die when Meren is in play, but I'll put it in the maybeboard and see which I like better.
Biggest issue I see with Xiahou Dun is that he can only interact with black cards. I'll play around with it though.
The Ritual is... interesting, to say the least. O.o
Sure, pod is great. But at the moment, I have a giant gaping hole in my four drops, so I want to at least add a couple more in before I add Pod. I probably would just want to clean up my curve as well.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Other than that I can't think of a 'missing' card right now, since your list looks already pretty solid and complete.
Meren's ability has you choose the creature separate from the experience counter part of the ability. You choose the creature. Then you check to see if you have enough experience counters, then if so, put it into play. If not, it goes back to your hand. Which then allows you to discard it again and target your graveyard hate.
I'm also thinking about building a Meren deck, dumping my Jarad deck which everyone in my play group knows well enough that I can't win often with it anymore, so I'll be watching your endeavors, I like the list.
I think he meant to say two or less. It would be very interesting if you could return Faerie Macabre to your hand while you had three or more experience counters though.
I did mean less, thank you. I am not fantastic at typing out responses while on mobile.
I like the idea of Faerie Macabre, but in practice I would likely use something like Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch.
To the maybeboard with them!
I can't believe I forgot to put Shriekmaw in...Well, I got the okay to use her before she's released, so now it's just a matter of converting my Balthor deck over to two colors. And thanks!
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I've been unimpressed with Genesis, but my biggest beef with this archetype is not enough card draw, card quality, and the ability to recover from board wipes. This general helps immensely with that. Genesis can help, but he is expensive for his ability, and puts more eyes on gravehate.
Blood Artist seems obvious here. I'd throw him in the mainboard. Reassembling Skeleton is also a little expensive, but is easily abused with Skullclamp and friends. Creakwood Leige is a cheap 4 drop for Birthing Pod and makes bodies quickly, and buffs them up. Lorwyn Garruk can help with ramping, making bodies, but most importantly, overrunning a player. If you're using Mike, then Spike Feeder seems obvious, and is 3 mana for another EXP counter like other creatures, but gains 4 life each time you abuse it without Mike. with him, it helps you avoid alot of win conditions.Phyrexian Obliterator, while difficult to cast, is a good 4 drop that dissuades attacking you.
Onto 5CMC+, Thragtusk offers additional bodies and life. I feel it's a bit winmore, and doesnt do much else. But Archfiend of Depravity has been an all star for me. Sadly it's at EOT, so one could still overwhelm you with tokens, but it helps reign in other token decks. It's utterly devastating to many meta decks and I cant recommend it enough. Deranged Hermit makes doods and then can die for a counter. Bane of Progress is a reset button I usually tutor up when Enchantress decks or stax decks start to get out of control. Avenger of Zenkidar is another I really like that synergizes with all the early ramp creatures and gives them value in the late game if you return them to play. So does Bloodghast.
Also, in this deck, Wake the Dead seems obvious for all the ETB/LTB effects we have. It also creates blockers in a pinch, but most importantly, you pay X to get X EXP counters. Grim Feast, if lifegain is a problem at all, is good for the Maybeboard. Pattern of Rebirth helps tutor out early fatties by doing what we want to do to begin with.
Smokestacks and Ward of Bones just help provide more board control. Stax helps us gain counters and abuse our triggers better while keeping their board clear. Nothing more nice to see than it and Archfiend keeping players in check, and if you get Ward too? Someone please help them!
Outside of the cards I already own, the following are good possibilities
I personally really like Deadbridge here. Fauna has never impressed me much, especially since we have no way to grand her haste, and just how expensive her ability is. Living Death doesnt impress me much either. It, like scrap mastery in daretti, is too situational. Buried Alive is huge. Savra, Queen of the Golgari helps gain life and can help as a gravepact effect on a creature. The Aven was mentioned above. I really hate small effects like this (and the draw spell in your list), but I cant help but really prefer Aven over Altar's Reap, given it can be returned to play to draw us some cards, which isnt bd at all. However, being an instant, it can save a creature from being Mind Controlled
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I like it, but in my experience, I'm already going to be a target for grave hate, as there aren't many reanimator decks in my play group. But, Meren is likely going to bit the dust, and I like having options for back up. I suppose I could consider using Phyrexian Reclamation in it's place, but I'd rather keep some contingency plans in the deck.
I'm already running Reassembling Skeleton, but think of the maybe board essentially as cards that are (or will be, at some point) in the main deck. I just had to cut it down to 100 to start with, but I'm actually going shuffle the deck around quite a bit at first.
Currently, the four drops I'm really looking at are Spike Weaver, Dimir House Guard, Wickerbough Elder, Graveborn Muse, Mind Slicer, Entomber Exarch, and Vulturous Aven. I won't put all of them in the list, there really just isn't room, but I think that gives me a pretty wide range of flexibility for different kinds of effects. Creakwood Liege is interesting though. I'll have to think on Garruk Wildspeaker though, I'm going to have problems fitting everything I want into the list. Lastly, I'd probably prefer Phyrexian Obliterator in a lure deck, it dies pretty quickly without doing much from what I've seen of other people using it in my playgroup.
Avenger of Zendikar could be a nice potential add. Somewhat difficult to find room for.
I like Wake the Dead, it seems interesting. I do have pattern of Rebirth in my maybeboard, I'll look in to Grim Feast if my life total seems to be a problem. The deck that's really dangerous (as far as quickly dropping my life total goes) in my group is Heartless Hidetsugu, and I'm not sure it can keep up quickly enough for that, however.
I'm just going to disclaimer this now: I hate stax. Grave Pact type effects and some discard are about as far as I'll go, and even then, I prefer not to go too heavy on those kinds of effects. I hate playing against them, I would be pretty hypocritical to turn around and start doing it to others.
I'm running Fauna Shaman and Buried Alive already. I'll think about Savra, but I haven't liked her before in similar decks. Deadbridge is probably going to come down to finding room for it, but I do like the card. Vulturous Aven is already up for playtesting in my maybeboard, and I am also not super impressed by Living Death in most decks I've tried it in.
I really do appreciate the suggestions. I should mention that my maybeboard isn't really a standard maybe board, but I wanted to cut the deck down to 100 cards to have a starting point, and the maybeboard is pretty much just cards I am going to also playtest (with the exception of Mana Crypt, because I only own one, and it's more about deciding if it's worth it to take it out of another deck for this one).
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I think I'll drop Genesis from mine and go for Phyrexian Reclaimation. It's faster, but eats our life total.
I also mistakenly overlooked one of my favorite cards! Tortured Existence. Dump a creature we can reanimate to nab one back we cannot. Or one we NEED to cast now for one we can settle to get back EOT.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
While I do understand that it's a super useful tool (and props to those who enjoy it), it's just not a style I really like playing with our against. It's honestly just a personal preference.
I'll play around with both and see which one ends up being more useful in the long run. There is currently a lot of enchantment removal in my play group, and not a lot of grave hate, which is why I lean towards Genesis, but that could always change!
I like the effect. Still, you guys are killing me. I only get 100 cards!
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
For Slum Rapper, I already have two similar effects at three mana, so I think I'll hold of on it unless I feel I really need more redundancy on the effect.
Big Game Hunter is investing, though I think I'd want to find room for something like Shriekmaw first.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Edit: Also, why not Garruk Relentless?
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Some good cards in BG:
Spore Frog aggro
Recurring Nightmare really is a Recurring Nightmare
Thragtusk aggro and combo with the previous nightmare
Deathrite Shaman 1mana planewalker, just to good^^
Smothering Abomination card advantage, sac outlet, fly....
For the LftL packages... nop. LftL is an amazing card on its own, but all the cars that go with it are bad on their own.... Dakmor Salvage is a bad swamp, raven's crime is not wors the slot... each of thos card that you draw will just do nothing but waiting a potential LftL.
An other advice: avoid the trap of the all dredge or all graveyard plan. The more full your graveyard is, the sensitive it is to grave-hate. just have what you need in it, no more. Deadbridge Chant, Splinterfright are some of those traps.
Actually I would probably a GB land mana denial with some funny Braids, Cabal minion, Bloodghast....
I agree with Scoup, that Dredge cards are just bad on their own. If you want to use the LftL engine, use Bloodghast, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Fetchlands, etc. Things that you can actual abuse with it. Golgari Grave Troll is the best one of the bunch for this strategy. Spore Frog is just amazing here as well.
I just want to mention, if Graveyard hate isn't prevalent in your meta, by all means, go ahead and run with a Dredge and Graveyard based build. But one Bojuka Bog and your engine is completely turned off. Even worse if someone plays Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace. Sure, you can claim you'll have removal in hand, but it can be countered... I just think going all in on any general and being very transparent about it, is just asking to be shut out of the game. I'm not a fan :). Have multiple angles of attacking. For example, OP focuses alot on sacrificing creatures for value, and then using the General's EOT trigger to just grab those creatures back.
Deadbridge is about the only "Fill up the graveyard" spell I'd consider running if I needed a way to recover from grave hate, in any case, as it's very similar to what our general does (and could grab us back some other neat things as well), without being nigh worthless on its own like Ravens Crime and other Dredge cards can be.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to play around with the deck composition to include at least a little bit of recurrable removal. Unfortunately, I was pretty busy this weekend and didn't have a chance to finish digging all of the cards out of my collection.
I'll have to throw the priest into the maybeboard. I'm not a fan of Garruk Relentless, because he tends to be difficult to flip, and keep on field. I just haven't had much success with him in other decks that I've attempted to play him in.
As I told gromgrom, I'm just not really a fan of that kind of playstyle, but I do appreciate the suggestion.
There are definitely some interesting suggestions in here. I'll go through them some time when I'm not on my phone and start adding them to my test cards. I will say on Varolz, that having had him as a general, I've not had luck actually keeping creatures that I've scavenged on to alive, and because it's at sorcery speed, it can't even be used as a reaction to grave hate.
That's definitely fair. I think I'll enjoy Meren more, even though they're similar. I just think I'd like two colors more.
I should point out that Recurring Nightmare is banned in multiplayer. That said, there are some good suggestions I'll have to look at, but I am not planning on converting this to a mana denial deck any time in the forseeable future. Thanks for the suggestions though!
I like the resonator. I'll see what I have that I can potentially cut for it once I get down to a more set list. I don't know that it quite does enough, however.
No, and I don't plan on going all in on a dredge theme. There are better commanders for that. I'll drop Woodland Bellower in to the test list, though!
I appreciate all of the feedback.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I wasnt referring to you with that post, edited it later. I edited to say I prefer the route you're taking where you arent all-in on the commander's ability, but instread eek value out of sacrificing creatures, and use her to bring them back.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I threw things like Mycoloth into the maybeboard from the main. Same with Smokestax, Deathreap Ritual, Acidic Slime, etc. Many of these dont provide any immediate effect, or in the case of Slime, are too expensive for the cost. Caterpillar/Sage does the same thing for cheaper, and also can more easily be hardcast/returned to play early on. Deathreap was replaced by many other creatures like Disciple that do something immediately and not after I already can set up a board to benefit from it. Not that it is bad by any means, but it's 4CMC and slow. I want to move away from "Depend on me" cards outside of Grave Pact and Survival effects.
Evolutionary Leap is special. It replaced Birthing Pod! I just hate Birthing Pod. It plays nicely into finding Kukushko, but it's just too damn expensive to justify. While on the other hand, Leap reveals alot of information, and doesnt place the creature into play. But it's a cheap sac outlet. Both Pod and Leap both draw attention. Jarad's Orders I really like as an alternative to Pod at the same base cost. Puts things where we want them and doesnt draw as much hate nor put our eggies on one basket
Pattern of Rebirth is also pretty solid, works well with our strategy, great for finding an early Kukoshko/Gary. But i've also hated seeing it without a sac outlet. Black Market I want to use and make it work, but I'm not positive it's what we're looking for late game (outside of casting Decree of Pain).
Wincons: Garruk, Kokushko, Puppeteer Clique, Gary, Avenger, Pox (I want to make room for Jarad)
Just hoping for some advice as well!
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Bloodghast
1x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Corpse Augur
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Eternal Witness
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Grave Titan
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Mindslicer
1x Nether Traitor
1x Ophiomancer
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Smothering Abomination
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spore Frog
1x Sylvan Ranger
1x Viscera Seer
1x Wood Elves
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Yavimaya Granger
Sorcery (6)
1x Buried Alive
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pox
1x Primal Growth
1x Regrowth
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Command Beacon
1x Command Tower
10x Forest
1x High Market
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Strip Mine
9x Swamp
1x Tainted Wood
1x Temple of Malady
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Woodland Cemetery
Enchantment (12)
1x Awakening Zone
1x Bitterblossom
1x Black Market
1x Contamination
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x From Beyond
1x Grave Pact
1x Pattern of Rebirth
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
Artifact (7)
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Golgari Signet
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Skullclamp
1x Smokestack
1x Sol Ring
Instant (3)
1x Beast Within
1x Grisly Salvage
1x Krosan Grip
Planeswalker (1)
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Abhorrent Overlord
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Archfiend of Depravity
1x Birthing Pod
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Creakwood Liege
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Crux of Fate
1x Dark Prophecy
1x Death Cloud
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Decree of Pain
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Devoted Druid
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dosan the Falling Leaf
1x Eldrazi Monument
1x Entomb
1x Jarad's Orders
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1x Lodestone Golem
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Magus of the Abyss
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Palace Siege
1x Pathbreaker Ibex
1x Pox
1x Putrefy
1x Skullmulcher
1x Song of the Dryads
1x Spike Weaver
1x Static Orb
1x Strionic Resonator
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Tainted AEther
1x Thief of Blood
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1x Ward of Bones
1x Winter Orb
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
There's enough cards that can fit into a Meren deck that all of us are probably just going to have to make cuts based on personal preference, unfortunately. I do really like the idea of Awakening Zone though, I might have to change out Golgari Signet for it.
I've also been considering Corpse Augur and Woodland Bellower. Corpse Augur, in my group, seems like it will draw a solid amount of cards without potentially killing me, and I really like the Bellower, I just don't know how useful it will be in this style of deck in practice.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I like Skullmuncher and Disciple of Bolas alot. I may need to drop Muncher for Augur or just use all 3. I'll add bellower to the list of high CMC cards to try.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Here's what I'm thinking. Tutors left out because they're slightly unfun. Survival of the Fittest left out cause it's too spikey