So, a good friend (Who passed the judge exam) told me about this rule that rarely is relevant, but is particularly so in this deck.
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or
any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger “at the
beginning of the next cleanup step”). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those
triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast
spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another
cleanup step begins.
Basically, what this means is if we have Gitrog out and we are discarding due to hand size and we discard Dakmor Salvage, what happens is that we can choose to dredge salvage off of Gitrog's draw trigger, putting our land back into our hand. However, this will eventually produce another cleanup step forcing us to discard again. That is not including the extra card we might have acquired off of dredging away a land. This essentially allows you to mill essentially your whole deck and also hand sculpt whatever seven cards you want that didn't get milled. Ending this process is as simple as choosing not to dredge, discarding to seven (and probably pitching a land), choosing not to dredge again, and then discarding a nonland.
For pure combo applications, it basically screams "I'm going to win next turn" to everyone, so I can't imagine it being super practical. Even if you ran cards like Wake the Dead, the fact that you can mill away the card you want off of the dredge makes this approach less than optimal. That being said, it is a way to mill your deck without a free discard outlet.
However, this may be used to hand sculpt to an extent, so long as you're willing to take the risk that you might bin what you want. That being said, if you pack enough recursion, you can work around that possibility. Not to mention that if you have an Eldrazi titan that shuffles your GY back, I believe you can keep doing it unless the titan is literally the bottom card of the deck until you theoretically have your ideal seven. If it is your bottom card, draw it, then discard the titan with a likely draw trigger on the stack. It will end the loop, but you won't die.
It might also be useful if you desperately need an answer at all costs and run enough instant speed answers that can do the job. For example, if I literally have no other outs to a giant angry mass of creatures, I might just roll the dice by going to 8 cards with a salvage (or a ton of lands) in hand and hope to hit a Constant Mists or Crop Rotation (with Glacial Chasm still in the deck)
There is alot of discussion on this in the infinite combo thread. Think the deck has made alotments to allow it to win during cleanup this way.
Side note thoughts on Dread Defiler ? To dredge some fatties and throw em at peoples faces like Jarad
I like what's going on here. I think the focused combo thread that is here lacks some late game consistency, and I personally like this list MUCH better. I'll be following it for a little while.
How has the Tireless Tracker been? It seems like a weaker card, but I haven't seen it used in game play yet.
Undergrowth Champion just feels like a vanilla beater. Tireless Tracker is actually quite fine. You get triple value out of fetch lands and you often hold up 2 for responses or fogs anyway. Although it's more of an insurance policy than anything, which is never bad to have.
After additional testing, here are the cards I definitely feel okay with cutting:
Mana Reflection - It's pretty win-more in a deck like this Tempt with Discovery - No one ever takes it, and while I might be cutting a land tutor I'll be adding in a land tutor. Blighted Woodland - It's the worst land on the list and I'm okay with going down to 44. Crux of Fate for Pernicious Deed - The latter is more relevant against multiple hate cards. You kind of stop creature decks pretty hard with chasm anyway.
This seems weak but requires further testing: Necrogen Mists- It has actually been quite fine when I wanted it, but there are situations where I didn't want to see it.
I will try the following
Frontier Siege: It does the job of Mana Reflection but it is much easier to curve into it. This deck has a low curve so getting a net +4 on spendable mana is better than say.. Thran Dynamo's +3 ramp.
Crucible of Worlds (proxy): Only card I'm proxying. I kinda feel bad for it, but at the same time the effect is just so needed here and $70 is asking too much for the effect. Azusa, I won't, because her effect can be somewhat replicated with a number of different cards I am already running. Also, the cards I am running help the deck hit 3 mana on turn 2 more easily, which is VERY helpful to my current design. Even if I owned Azusa, I crazily enough may not run it in this build due to curve-out considerations.
Speaking of lands, Ghost Quarter has actually been insanely useful for not only blowing up enemy power lands, but also for using on yourself to draw cards and still get a land back! It can also save your important lands from exile effects by keeping it on standby. It is as important as Strip Mine and probably more important to have than Dust Bowl!
Lastly, if you are feeling mean, the types of board states you run into with this deck make Death Cloud really good at times. However, I don't think my playgroup will be okay with that card.
Some thoughts from my own findings. Noxious Revival and even Reclaim have worked wonders with the instant save. There is so much draw in the deck, going to the top of library is not a big drawback. Seems better fit than Regrowth
Seems there is only 6 ways of winning in the deck, have you felt it could use more?
I have tried adding more depth to avoid the durdle. Also took out Undergrowth Champion, was not pulling any weight. Surprisingly Guul Draz Overseer has been helping huge with the going wide tokens. Also going to try Ulvenwald Hydra when I get one. Its a short clock with Filth
Some thoughts from my own findings. Noxious Revival and even Reclaim have worked wonders with the instant save. There is so much draw in the deck, going to the top of library is not a big drawback. Seems better fit than Regrowth
Seems there is only 6 ways of winning in the deck, have you felt it could use more?
I have tried adding more depth to avoid the durdle. Also took out Undergrowth Champion, was not pulling any weight. Surprisingly Guul Draz Overseer has been helping huge with the going wide tokens. Also going to try Ulvenwald Hydra when I get one. Its a short clock with Filth
Probably a good call on Noxious Revival. It's pretty easy to float a green on the upkeep and sacrifice the tapped land to feed the frog. I'd also throw my Vampiric Tutor in here if I felt like moving it out of a deck for the same reasons, although the deck is already pretty tutor-heavy.
6 wincons has been fine for so far, however on occasion I do end up wishing for one early. I kind of want one more, but one that can work while I have Glacial Chasm out. The only option I can think of is Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. I'd try vinecrasher but I don't often have 10 lands in my GY to make him really good. However, it is pretty easy for me to average 3 landfall triggers a turn with the potential for a lot more. Also, the fact that he gets huge supplements Filth very well.
(Funny story. I also played a game of Planechase for the hell of it, and the players landed on the plane that gives everyone infinite extra land plays right after the Warp World plane that gimped everyone's mana. They desperately tried to get out before my turn went around, but they couldn't. So I had a Courser of Kruphix, Life from the Loam, fetch lands, and cycle lands. I could literally dig to Crucible of Worlds and probably play every land in my deck. Play all lands from my deck, float a billion off Coffers, play Golgari Rot Farm to bounce coffers, play coffers and float a billion mana, and cast the Exsanguinate sitting in my hand the whole game.)
-EARLY Marit Lage (T2-3)
-Titania/Baloths/Avenger of Zendikar - For going wide or non-toady
-Jarad, Golgari Glitch Lord - For going tall (Terravore, Centaur Vinecrasher) or with...
-Oblivion Crown - surprise commander win when nobody blocks the 6/6 deathtoucher
-Abundance/Skirge Familiar/Exsanguinate - Dump lands into yard, flashback Creeping Renaissance
-Worm Harvest grossness
Abundance is absurd in general for pulling lands out of the deck.
Words of Waste is words of wrecking people's hands
Step 1) Get-gud by Git-rog ASAP
Step 2) Play a bunch of land, make a bunch of mana, draw a bunch of cards
Step 3) Play the awesome cards you just drew, repeat step 2.
Also, the frog is inherently broken. Move to clean-up step, 8 cards in hand. Discard a land, draw a card. Still 8 cards in hand, try again to go through clean-up step. Repeat, substituting lands in hand for non-land cards in deck. Do you think, that in this deck, having lands in the yard could be in any way abused? One-card combo the frogger is.
I've been analyzing other lists, and there are some things I like and dislike about my list over the others.
First off, things I like about the build.
A) Less vulnerable to graveyard hate. I lose some advantages, but I can very easily still go at full speed while the more dredge-based variants would either slow down or not be able to win through an onboard tormod's crypt. Remember that cycling lands can save your dredge spells once you bait an activation. I've had a couple times where I ate onboard graveyard nukes and literally proceeded to not care.
B) Less vulnerable to getting locked out of being able to cast the commander due to healthy accommodations toward playing the full 2 lands every turn. Keep in mind that if you make the proper 2 land drops each turn, every time he is killed essentially makes that second land a free ramp effect. This allows you to force the froggy through a number of counterspells and removal spells. Considering how centralized decks are around the commander and how not having him makes you lose too much advantage, this is a very powerful upside to have.
Getting Cabal Coffers also helps immensely with this.
C) Landfall triggers are immensely insane with cheap ramp that can hit 2-3 landfall triggers at once. This deck feels like an Azusa deck with black in how it is built.
E) Removal density. I believe the number is correct. The cards themselves can change, but the ratio is correct.
F) Its early game can speed out the frog really fast semi-consistently. You really don't want to be forced to drop frog on turn 5.
Now, here are the things I like a little less about my build.
A) Quite a bit of "air". I play a much higher density of ramp in my build which means I have a period where I'm generally durdling and building up lands. This actually isn't a terribly long period of time, but it is significant and part of the reason why I theorize that supplementing this with asymmetric resource disruption is a good idea (try Death Cloud?). This deck actually plays better with Squandered Resources (even though I don't run it yet) because it helps with this problem of drawing nothing but lands and ramp. Yawgmoth's Will is one of the best cards to deal with this because you can replay your ramp and ensure land drops but more importantly replay your tutors and get your endgame going. The global discard is also supposed to help with this from the free "rummaging" effects.
B) On that note, not many ways of winning. While my tutor density is high (making this less of a problem), I could go for one more win condition.
C) Not much in the way of actual defense. Most of my deterrence is done via a 6/6 deathtouching frog. I have spot removal, Constant Mists, and Glacial Chasm, but not much in the way of real board presence unless I am about to win. This is mostly oftentimes a problem when up against other "infinite value" decks that play stuff that beat your face in during your 1-2 turn ultra ramp durdle period. Cue Maelstrom Wanderer.
E) No "easy" button. Well, this is the non-combo list isn't it? Still, it is a real downside in a world where sometimes winning comes down to a race.
However, if you wanted to throw a combo in here, my favorite is probably the Skirge Familiar + Dakmor Salvage + Eldrazi Titan into Exsanguinate infinite mana Titan loop. The reason for this is that none of the cards are dead on their own and it takes up very little space in a deck. (You only need the familiar and land + Gitrog out)
I agree with most of your points. Squandered Resources is the stone colds. I agree that early frogger is best and he's really easy to keep out and play through disruption, particularly with a landfall sub-theme. Lands coming and leaving play gets people both ways.
I disagree with Oppression. It would be better if the card said 'each spell cannot be cast unless that player discards a card' ala Chains of Mephistopheles. It does nothing if the opponent has one card in hand. Granted, it helps get the table hell-bent faster, but even then that is 1-2 turns beyond whenever it is cast. I'd prefer a more proactive, scalable mass discard, which is why I run Words of Waste.
Speaking of Chains...I know it replaces 'Draw' for any card beyond the first each turn with 'Discard, then Draw or Mill 1', but how nuts is it here? Considering drawing 4-6 cards per turn is not unusual with fetchlands.
Opression seems innocuous in play. Its not actively wrecking hands like words of waste more of a 'your doing this to yourself' effect. Ive dropped it on fairly good players and they didnt quite realize how much thier ramp/draw/utility spells are going to cost them. Puts them in a bad decision making process. This is without any more mana investment than the original cost. With words of waste you need to have mana to spare to cycle a card, pay for words twice your down 3 more, not saying its bad, its really quite brilliant just taxing on the deck. I run both in my frog deck, was even running Delirium Skeins before but now stick to the two plus a Mindslicer. So mean to pay the flashback for aDread Return
Deal Broker is essentially a 3 mana summoning sick Phyrexian Arena in this deck. This deck can do far more nuts than just that.
So.. this is probably the way my next changes are going down
- Genesis Wave. This card is hilarious but it simply helps with a process we are already very good at.
- Necrogen Mists. The card isn't awful but it doesn't act that fast.
- Sakura-Tribe Elder Should have swapped this for birds on day 1.
(Stronghold Rats is also probably getting cut for something later. It's a pet card more than anything because almost no other lists get to use it well)
I'm also probably cutting some cards for things like Vampiric Tutor when I get to it.
+ Words of Waste. I want to try this out really badly thanks to you guys. Somehow, in this sea of card shops and players, no one seems to own one.
+ Ob Nixilis, the Fallen: Creature form Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle on turbocrack.
Would this be a good shell for Death Cloud? You can ensure getting ahead on lands, and they'll generally be ahead on creatures. The problem is that you kind of need many of those lands yourself.
+ Birds of Paradise Go from 1 mana to 3 mana to 5 to 6. Easy.
Still want to try out the archive somewhere.
Lastly, my mind tells me I'm slightly overdoing it with the yard hate, but am I? (4 pieces + tutors?)
Might be so. GY hate is meta depending. With recurring and tutoring bojuka, Its all i am running currently. Took out weathered wretch and Rise of the Dark Realms. On another note a more friendly death cloud effect ->The Great Aurora
Does the same generic effect, resource depletion and total board wipe. With tokens, all the card draw and mana ramp the frog should always come out way ahead, like a death cloud without the moans and groans. Playgroup depending.
While it is a bit late, Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, and Sudden Death are great answers to more controlling decks. Having a couple of additional board wipes is also a good idea if you're not running 3-4 pieces already. Ultimately, a sideboard allows you to run specific answers OR to increase the type of answer that you want to draw. Lots of Aggro? Cut down on spot removal and a few ramp pieces to slot in more removal. Control and/or Blue based decks running around? Carpet of Flowers and Defense Grid should come in, along with maybe some Split Second removal or Hand Disruption. I personally am a fan of discard effects in Black, particularly with Sadistic Hypnotist, but this isn't quite the deck for him.
Never forget your yard hate and the expectation that your opponents will probably bring in the same. Early game yard hate barely matters to you, but late game it may matter a lot more when endgames happen or resources get stretched thin.
Also if the league allows land destruction, keep in mind that you may need some basics in the deck for your post land-D fetchlands to work.
I also cut Stronghold Rats for vamp tutor. Single discard doesn't work well when the goal is to force interaction out of your opponent's hand. I also cut Diabolic Revelation for archive (for now) because casting rev is asking to get blown out by a blue player.
Words of Waste has been good. Cycling lands on the opponent's draw step is especially nasty. Abundance tested OK, but the game I drew it I was drawing very very poorly even with the help (I literally drew no fetch or cycle lands!).
Lastly, new mana record for the deck.(without including Cabal Coffers, cause that feels like cheating.)
T1 land, Exploration, land
T2 land, Strip Mine, Frontier Siege
T3, Gitrog Monster, Kodama's Reach, land.
T4, float black on sacced land, Entomb on upkeep to hit loam, dredge loam. Loam and cycle lands to hit 3 land drops, but also strip mine an opponent's Gaea's Cradle and then play threshold Far Wanderings.
By the end of turn 4, not only am I sitting on 11 lands but also a Frontier Siege, meaning that I will begin turn 5 with at least 15 available mana to spend. My next draw: Demonic Tutor to get Yawgmoth's Will. Table scoops to infinite value.
Deck has been alot of fun. Was wondering if anyone has tried the Mirrorpool? Seems like a good fit fo copying Avenger of Zendikar ect. Or a kill spell. Fun with life from the loam recursion.
Leyline of the Void is amazing and I would probably fit it in here at some point. Also one of the better lists for Mirrorpool, but I have a critical mass of ETB tapped lands already.
Also, I think Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is worth testing in the build. We don't lose too much out of it, but a clean board reset plays into the favor of the deck with an amazing lategame, which is generally ours.
I went to another store and played against a different playgroup that was apparently more competitive than mine.
My start was really slow. Derevi plays T1 Mana Vault (disgusting), and Purph plays some creature tutors before his purph on turn 4. Derevi keeps playing mana rocks and an Azami, Lady of Scrolls to get his engine going. I T3 Green Sun's Zenith for Lotus Cobra and then frog turn 4. This decision to get cobra ends up winning me the game. I also destroyed a tapped Relic of Progenitus early in the game while Purph was tapped out.
Purph plays some elementals and we take damage while threatening Kiki-Jiki in his hand. Derevi decides this is a good time to play Stasis. Welp. Shuts both of us down. However, I got two land drops a turn and a lotus cobra and a card engine. I keep digging. Derevi plays Scryb Ranger but doesn't have the blue-green dual to keep the lock going indefinitely. My plan was to Dark Petition for Pernicious Deed and then wreck his board. While I was digging I was casting Raven's Crime pitching Dakmor Salvage to keep drawing stuff. I naturally draw Pernicious Deed. Sweet. I cast it and have 3 mana open to pop at the Derevi's player's turn. Both of them pretty much don't do much before I blow up Derevi's whole board. Now I untap. Now I cast Dark Petition to get Yawgmoth's Will, but before that cast Crop Rotation to get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Then I cast Yawg Will, cast the destroyed Lotus Cobra off of my gy, play both my lands and refund the cost of cobra, cast Crop Rotation exiling a basic land to get coffers. Float a lot of black mana off of coffers. Cast Frontier Siege, then recast Dark Petition to get my endgame. Then I cast Oppression.
I also played this deck 1v1 against an incomplete Boonweaver Giant Karador deck and it surprisingly held its own despite not being designed to play against competitive decks. Most of my wins generally involved A) Blowing up survival before it gets too dangerous. B) Nuking opponent's GY once I do, and C) Using recurrable Strip Mine variants to blow up all of my opponent's lands. (I lost a fair bunch too, but hey, I'll take that result!)
I love strong fair decks! I also like it when people don't draw their graveyard hate.
Important note (that I was told of by the boonweaver player after the game): The multiplayer game I had was against a playgroup that apparently plays fewer answers but instead tries to race each other via combo or lockout.
LESSON LEARNED: When playing this deck, understand that you are most likely taking the control role. Play enough removal that you can survive to your endgame.
Yeah, I don't often play my creature wincons when all it would do is get answered by the table and leave me vulnerable to something else. The exception is if I'm ramping so hard and drawing so many cards and it is clear no one has anything because it hasn't been used to stop me. It's another reason why I want to try running Ugin in the build. Follow Ugin up with your stuff and see how well they deal with it.
Funny enough, I actually won against an Azami deck once in a similarly amusing manner. He tapped out for Omniscience, and in response to him casting Enter the Infinite for free, I blew up Omniscience with Krosan Grip.
I made him discard his Laboratory Maniac earlier in the game off of repeated Raven's Crimes... which also kept him off countering too much of my stuff because..well.. raven's crime.
With mana being an actual constraint, and I know he has no Labman or Mind Over Matter in hand, he can't win before he runs out of deck.
You'd think including tower would be trivial, but this build is playing around 9 colorless lands!
Also moving the Twilight Mire out of one of my other decks, because City of Brass is just not really needed here. At all.. It was just me being lazy.
EDIT: Ugin has passed testing. As it turns out, the amount people get set back by this card is often enough that you can snatch a win through your followup plays. 8 mana is a thing but we ramp very hard and so it is not inconceivable for this to be viable removal.
So, this is one time where I will very freely admit that I am wrong about something for the deck. This is the inclusion of effects such as Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library. This deck draws so many cards that the filtering is supposedly less effective and that I wouldn't want space for these cards and that I'd much rather have library because I can at least draw extra cards.
Well, I am WRONG, and I apologize to the person where I gave such an incorrect opinion.
The part where top becomes insane is when you keep repeatedly drawing or recurring fetches. Now you get to see 3 extra cards for every fetch you crack, and with froggy out you will always draw the top one, guaranteeing you the best card out of those three! With enough shuffle effects you can see as many as 12 extra cards in a single turn! Also, you will never likely have to worry about shuffling away top because you can draw it back so easily. Oh, and if you can play lands off the top, you are in serious business.
Keep in mind that the deck is not meant to speed out the combo, meaning that doing it too early risks it getting shot and forcing you on the plan B that this deck mainly uses to win.
Thank you very much for your regular updates concerning the changes in your deck. For a Froggie newbie like me, these insights are extremely useful :).
I have one question concerning Burgeoning. At the moment, I am playing this card but somehow it never really had much impact in any of the games I played. As I play 42 lands only (including three non-mana producing lands: Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm and Dark Depths) I suspect that I do not play enough lands to fully exploit the potential of Burgeoning. Do you think that this is a plausible reasoning? If yes, how many lands would you suggest playing in order to make the most of Burgeoning? Moreover, if I decided to stay with these 42 lands, would it make sense to cut Burgeoning for Sensei's Divining Top?
Thank you very much for your regular updates concerning the changes in your deck. For a Froggie newbie like me, these insights are extremely useful :).
I have one question concerning Burgeoning. At the moment, I am playing this card but somehow it never really had much impact in any of the games I played. As I play 42 lands only (including three non-mana producing lands: Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm and Dark Depths) I suspect that I do not play enough lands to fully exploit the potential of Burgeoning. Do you think that this is a plausible reasoning? If yes, how many lands would you suggest playing in order to make the most of Burgeoning? Moreover, if I decided to stay with these 42 lands, would it make sense to cut Burgeoning for Sensei's Divining Top?
Burgeoning is sort of like an Exploration that is better early and slightly worse late. However, it can produce quite a potent effect when you repeatedly loam your deck. Are you often tutoring for Life from the Loam? If so, it might work out a bit better when you can guarantee having lands in hand.
Your land count is probably fine. I went down to 43 myself and divining top's ability to activate between fetches has been royally saving my butt. A good idea to find room for it. Library is fine too but it's not on the same level in this deck.
Basically, what this means is if we have Gitrog out and we are discarding due to hand size and we discard Dakmor Salvage, what happens is that we can choose to dredge salvage off of Gitrog's draw trigger, putting our land back into our hand. However, this will eventually produce another cleanup step forcing us to discard again. That is not including the extra card we might have acquired off of dredging away a land. This essentially allows you to mill essentially your whole deck and also hand sculpt whatever seven cards you want that didn't get milled. Ending this process is as simple as choosing not to dredge, discarding to seven (and probably pitching a land), choosing not to dredge again, and then discarding a nonland.
For pure combo applications, it basically screams "I'm going to win next turn" to everyone, so I can't imagine it being super practical. Even if you ran cards like Wake the Dead, the fact that you can mill away the card you want off of the dredge makes this approach less than optimal. That being said, it is a way to mill your deck without a free discard outlet.
However, this may be used to hand sculpt to an extent, so long as you're willing to take the risk that you might bin what you want. That being said, if you pack enough recursion, you can work around that possibility. Not to mention that if you have an Eldrazi titan that shuffles your GY back, I believe you can keep doing it unless the titan is literally the bottom card of the deck until you theoretically have your ideal seven. If it is your bottom card, draw it, then discard the titan with a likely draw trigger on the stack. It will end the loop, but you won't die.
It might also be useful if you desperately need an answer at all costs and run enough instant speed answers that can do the job. For example, if I literally have no other outs to a giant angry mass of creatures, I might just roll the dice by going to 8 cards with a salvage (or a ton of lands) in hand and hope to hit a Constant Mists or Crop Rotation (with Glacial Chasm still in the deck)
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Side note thoughts on Dread Defiler ? To dredge some fatties and throw em at peoples faces like Jarad
How has the Tireless Tracker been? It seems like a weaker card, but I haven't seen it used in game play yet.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Vinecrasher is worth testing if I don't end up liking baloths.
Only change I made as of this posting is -1 Cunning Lethemancer and +1 Deathrite Shaman. No real arguments there
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
After additional testing, here are the cards I definitely feel okay with cutting:
Mana Reflection - It's pretty win-more in a deck like this
Tempt with Discovery - No one ever takes it, and while I might be cutting a land tutor I'll be adding in a land tutor.
Blighted Woodland - It's the worst land on the list and I'm okay with going down to 44.
Crux of Fate for Pernicious Deed - The latter is more relevant against multiple hate cards. You kind of stop creature decks pretty hard with chasm anyway.
This seems weak but requires further testing:
Necrogen Mists- It has actually been quite fine when I wanted it, but there are situations where I didn't want to see it.
I will try the following
Frontier Siege: It does the job of Mana Reflection but it is much easier to curve into it. This deck has a low curve so getting a net +4 on spendable mana is better than say.. Thran Dynamo's +3 ramp.
Realms Uncharted: I got a copy, so it's going in.
Crucible of Worlds (proxy): Only card I'm proxying. I kinda feel bad for it, but at the same time the effect is just so needed here and $70 is asking too much for the effect. Azusa, I won't, because her effect can be somewhat replicated with a number of different cards I am already running. Also, the cards I am running help the deck hit 3 mana on turn 2 more easily, which is VERY helpful to my current design. Even if I owned Azusa, I crazily enough may not run it in this build due to curve-out considerations.
(Next up is Archive if I can shave room for it)
I'm also being lazy and not getting a Strip Mine when I should. It will replace Temple of the False God, most likely.
Speaking of lands, Ghost Quarter has actually been insanely useful for not only blowing up enemy power lands, but also for using on yourself to draw cards and still get a land back! It can also save your important lands from exile effects by keeping it on standby. It is as important as Strip Mine and probably more important to have than Dust Bowl!
Lastly, if you are feeling mean, the types of board states you run into with this deck make Death Cloud really good at times. However, I don't think my playgroup will be okay with that card.
This is what I'm thinking...
1x The Gitrog Monster
Artifacts
1x Sol Ring
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
Creatures
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Bane of Progress
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Groundskeeper
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Sakura-Tribe Scout
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Skyshroud Ranger
1x Stronghold Rats
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
Enchantments
1x Exploration
1x Frontier Siege
1x Necrogen Mists
1x Oppression
1x Pernicious Deed
Instants
1x Beast Within
1x Constant Mists
1x Crop Rotation
1x Entomb
1x Harrow
1x Krosan Grip
1x Murderous Cut
1x Putrefy
1x Realms Uncharted
1x Shred Memory
1x Snuff Out
1x Cultivate
1x Dark Petition
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Revelation
1x Exsanguinate
1x Far Wanderings
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Genesis Wave
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nissa's Pilgrimage
1x Raven's Crime
1x Regrowth
1x Restore
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Worm Harvest
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Lands (44)
1x Barren Moor
1x Blasted Landscape
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Coffers
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dakmor Salvage
1x Dark Depths
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dust Bowl
1x Evolving Wilds
9x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
1x Polluted Mire
1x Slippery Karst
6x Swamp
1x Strip Mine
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Woodland Cemetery
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Seems there is only 6 ways of winning in the deck, have you felt it could use more?
I have tried adding more depth to avoid the durdle. Also took out Undergrowth Champion, was not pulling any weight. Surprisingly Guul Draz Overseer has been helping huge with the going wide tokens. Also going to try Ulvenwald Hydra when I get one. Its a short clock with Filth
Probably a good call on Noxious Revival. It's pretty easy to float a green on the upkeep and sacrifice the tapped land to feed the frog. I'd also throw my Vampiric Tutor in here if I felt like moving it out of a deck for the same reasons, although the deck is already pretty tutor-heavy.
6 wincons has been fine for so far, however on occasion I do end up wishing for one early. I kind of want one more, but one that can work while I have Glacial Chasm out. The only option I can think of is Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. I'd try vinecrasher but I don't often have 10 lands in my GY to make him really good. However, it is pretty easy for me to average 3 landfall triggers a turn with the potential for a lot more. Also, the fact that he gets huge supplements Filth very well.
(Funny story. I also played a game of Planechase for the hell of it, and the players landed on the plane that gives everyone infinite extra land plays right after the Warp World plane that gimped everyone's mana. They desperately tried to get out before my turn went around, but they couldn't. So I had a Courser of Kruphix, Life from the Loam, fetch lands, and cycle lands. I could literally dig to Crucible of Worlds and probably play every land in my deck. Play all lands from my deck, float a billion off Coffers, play Golgari Rot Farm to bounce coffers, play coffers and float a billion mana, and cast the Exsanguinate sitting in my hand the whole game.)
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
My latest list. Competitive, not budget.
Wincons:
-EARLY Marit Lage (T2-3)
-Titania/Baloths/Avenger of Zendikar - For going wide or non-toady
-Jarad, Golgari Glitch Lord - For going tall (Terravore, Centaur Vinecrasher) or with...
-Oblivion Crown - surprise commander win when nobody blocks the 6/6 deathtoucher
-Abundance/Skirge Familiar/Exsanguinate - Dump lands into yard, flashback Creeping Renaissance
-Worm Harvest grossness
Abundance is absurd in general for pulling lands out of the deck.
Words of Waste is words of wrecking people's hands
Step 1) Get-gud by Git-rog ASAP
Step 2) Play a bunch of land, make a bunch of mana, draw a bunch of cards
Step 3) Play the awesome cards you just drew, repeat step 2.
Also, the frog is inherently broken. Move to clean-up step, 8 cards in hand. Discard a land, draw a card. Still 8 cards in hand, try again to go through clean-up step. Repeat, substituting lands in hand for non-land cards in deck. Do you think, that in this deck, having lands in the yard could be in any way abused? One-card combo the frogger is.
First off, things I like about the build.
A) Less vulnerable to graveyard hate. I lose some advantages, but I can very easily still go at full speed while the more dredge-based variants would either slow down or not be able to win through an onboard tormod's crypt. Remember that cycling lands can save your dredge spells once you bait an activation. I've had a couple times where I ate onboard graveyard nukes and literally proceeded to not care.
B) Less vulnerable to getting locked out of being able to cast the commander due to healthy accommodations toward playing the full 2 lands every turn. Keep in mind that if you make the proper 2 land drops each turn, every time he is killed essentially makes that second land a free ramp effect. This allows you to force the froggy through a number of counterspells and removal spells. Considering how centralized decks are around the commander and how not having him makes you lose too much advantage, this is a very powerful upside to have.
Getting Cabal Coffers also helps immensely with this.
C) Landfall triggers are immensely insane with cheap ramp that can hit 2-3 landfall triggers at once. This deck feels like an Azusa deck with black in how it is built.
D) Oppression. More lists should be running it.
E) Removal density. I believe the number is correct. The cards themselves can change, but the ratio is correct.
F) Its early game can speed out the frog really fast semi-consistently. You really don't want to be forced to drop frog on turn 5.
Now, here are the things I like a little less about my build.
A) Quite a bit of "air". I play a much higher density of ramp in my build which means I have a period where I'm generally durdling and building up lands. This actually isn't a terribly long period of time, but it is significant and part of the reason why I theorize that supplementing this with asymmetric resource disruption is a good idea (try Death Cloud?). This deck actually plays better with Squandered Resources (even though I don't run it yet) because it helps with this problem of drawing nothing but lands and ramp. Yawgmoth's Will is one of the best cards to deal with this because you can replay your ramp and ensure land drops but more importantly replay your tutors and get your endgame going. The global discard is also supposed to help with this from the free "rummaging" effects.
B) On that note, not many ways of winning. While my tutor density is high (making this less of a problem), I could go for one more win condition.
C) Not much in the way of actual defense. Most of my deterrence is done via a 6/6 deathtouching frog. I have spot removal, Constant Mists, and Glacial Chasm, but not much in the way of real board presence unless I am about to win. This is mostly oftentimes a problem when up against other "infinite value" decks that play stuff that beat your face in during your 1-2 turn ultra ramp durdle period. Cue Maelstrom Wanderer.
D) Not owning Burgeoning or Azusa, Lost but Seeking. Or Abundance for that matter.
E) No "easy" button. Well, this is the non-combo list isn't it? Still, it is a real downside in a world where sometimes winning comes down to a race.
However, if you wanted to throw a combo in here, my favorite is probably the Skirge Familiar + Dakmor Salvage + Eldrazi Titan into Exsanguinate infinite mana Titan loop. The reason for this is that none of the cards are dead on their own and it takes up very little space in a deck. (You only need the familiar and land + Gitrog out)
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I disagree with Oppression. It would be better if the card said 'each spell cannot be cast unless that player discards a card' ala Chains of Mephistopheles. It does nothing if the opponent has one card in hand. Granted, it helps get the table hell-bent faster, but even then that is 1-2 turns beyond whenever it is cast. I'd prefer a more proactive, scalable mass discard, which is why I run Words of Waste.
Speaking of Chains...I know it replaces 'Draw' for any card beyond the first each turn with 'Discard, then Draw or Mill 1', but how nuts is it here? Considering drawing 4-6 cards per turn is not unusual with fetchlands.
So.. this is probably the way my next changes are going down
- Genesis Wave. This card is hilarious but it simply helps with a process we are already very good at.
- Necrogen Mists. The card isn't awful but it doesn't act that fast.
- Sakura-Tribe Elder Should have swapped this for birds on day 1.
(Stronghold Rats is also probably getting cut for something later. It's a pet card more than anything because almost no other lists get to use it well)
I'm also probably cutting some cards for things like Vampiric Tutor when I get to it.
+ Words of Waste. I want to try this out really badly thanks to you guys. Somehow, in this sea of card shops and players, no one seems to own one.
+ Ob Nixilis, the Fallen: Creature form Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle on turbocrack.
Would this be a good shell for Death Cloud? You can ensure getting ahead on lands, and they'll generally be ahead on creatures. The problem is that you kind of need many of those lands yourself.
+ Birds of Paradise Go from 1 mana to 3 mana to 5 to 6. Easy.
Still want to try out the archive somewhere.
Lastly, my mind tells me I'm slightly overdoing it with the yard hate, but am I? (4 pieces + tutors?)
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Does the same generic effect, resource depletion and total board wipe. With tokens, all the card draw and mana ramp the frog should always come out way ahead, like a death cloud without the moans and groans. Playgroup depending.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Also if the league allows land destruction, keep in mind that you may need some basics in the deck for your post land-D fetchlands to work.
I also cut Stronghold Rats for vamp tutor. Single discard doesn't work well when the goal is to force interaction out of your opponent's hand. I also cut Diabolic Revelation for archive (for now) because casting rev is asking to get blown out by a blue player.
Words of Waste has been good. Cycling lands on the opponent's draw step is especially nasty. Abundance tested OK, but the game I drew it I was drawing very very poorly even with the help (I literally drew no fetch or cycle lands!).
Lastly, new mana record for the deck.(without including Cabal Coffers, cause that feels like cheating.)
T1 land, Exploration, land
T2 land, Strip Mine, Frontier Siege
T3, Gitrog Monster, Kodama's Reach, land.
T4, float black on sacced land, Entomb on upkeep to hit loam, dredge loam. Loam and cycle lands to hit 3 land drops, but also strip mine an opponent's Gaea's Cradle and then play threshold Far Wanderings.
By the end of turn 4, not only am I sitting on 11 lands but also a Frontier Siege, meaning that I will begin turn 5 with at least 15 available mana to spend. My next draw: Demonic Tutor to get Yawgmoth's Will. Table scoops to infinite value.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Also, I think Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is worth testing in the build. We don't lose too much out of it, but a clean board reset plays into the favor of the deck with an amazing lategame, which is generally ours.
I went to another store and played against a different playgroup that was apparently more competitive than mine.
So, I was up against Derevi, Empyrial Tactician and Purphoros, God of the Forge.
My start was really slow. Derevi plays T1 Mana Vault (disgusting), and Purph plays some creature tutors before his purph on turn 4. Derevi keeps playing mana rocks and an Azami, Lady of Scrolls to get his engine going. I T3 Green Sun's Zenith for Lotus Cobra and then frog turn 4. This decision to get cobra ends up winning me the game. I also destroyed a tapped Relic of Progenitus early in the game while Purph was tapped out.
Purph plays some elementals and we take damage while threatening Kiki-Jiki in his hand. Derevi decides this is a good time to play Stasis. Welp. Shuts both of us down. However, I got two land drops a turn and a lotus cobra and a card engine. I keep digging. Derevi plays Scryb Ranger but doesn't have the blue-green dual to keep the lock going indefinitely. My plan was to Dark Petition for Pernicious Deed and then wreck his board. While I was digging I was casting Raven's Crime pitching Dakmor Salvage to keep drawing stuff. I naturally draw Pernicious Deed. Sweet. I cast it and have 3 mana open to pop at the Derevi's player's turn. Both of them pretty much don't do much before I blow up Derevi's whole board. Now I untap. Now I cast Dark Petition to get Yawgmoth's Will, but before that cast Crop Rotation to get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Then I cast Yawg Will, cast the destroyed Lotus Cobra off of my gy, play both my lands and refund the cost of cobra, cast Crop Rotation exiling a basic land to get coffers. Float a lot of black mana off of coffers. Cast Frontier Siege, then recast Dark Petition to get my endgame. Then I cast Oppression.
Next turn I draw Crucible of Worlds, Realms Uncharted for Glacial Chasm in case my plan A fails, then float mana to Exsanguinate. The turn after that Ob Nixilis finishes off everyone.
I also played this deck 1v1 against an incomplete Boonweaver Giant Karador deck and it surprisingly held its own despite not being designed to play against competitive decks. Most of my wins generally involved A) Blowing up survival before it gets too dangerous. B) Nuking opponent's GY once I do, and C) Using recurrable Strip Mine variants to blow up all of my opponent's lands. (I lost a fair bunch too, but hey, I'll take that result!)
I love strong fair decks! I also like it when people don't draw their graveyard hate.
Important note (that I was told of by the boonweaver player after the game): The multiplayer game I had was against a playgroup that apparently plays fewer answers but instead tries to race each other via combo or lockout.
LESSON LEARNED: When playing this deck, understand that you are most likely taking the control role. Play enough removal that you can survive to your endgame.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Funny enough, I actually won against an Azami deck once in a similarly amusing manner. He tapped out for Omniscience, and in response to him casting Enter the Infinite for free, I blew up Omniscience with Krosan Grip.
I made him discard his Laboratory Maniac earlier in the game off of repeated Raven's Crimes... which also kept him off countering too much of my stuff because..well.. raven's crime.
With mana being an actual constraint, and I know he has no Labman or Mind Over Matter in hand, he can't win before he runs out of deck.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Looking for Room to include:
Phyrexian Tower
Mindslicer
You'd think including tower would be trivial, but this build is playing around 9 colorless lands!
Also moving the Twilight Mire out of one of my other decks, because City of Brass is just not really needed here. At all.. It was just me being lazy.
EDIT: Ugin has passed testing. As it turns out, the amount people get set back by this card is often enough that you can snatch a win through your followup plays. 8 mana is a thing but we ramp very hard and so it is not inconceivable for this to be viable removal.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Well, I am WRONG, and I apologize to the person where I gave such an incorrect opinion.
The part where top becomes insane is when you keep repeatedly drawing or recurring fetches. Now you get to see 3 extra cards for every fetch you crack, and with froggy out you will always draw the top one, guaranteeing you the best card out of those three! With enough shuffle effects you can see as many as 12 extra cards in a single turn! Also, you will never likely have to worry about shuffling away top because you can draw it back so easily. Oh, and if you can play lands off the top, you are in serious business.
On that note,
- Forest
+ Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library also worth running.
Groundskeeper is underperforming. Likely a cut for Mindslicer testing.
Also, for people wanting to fit a combo into this shell, it should be easy
- Ob Nixilis
+ Skirge Familiar
- Ugin
+ Eldrazi Titan
Keep in mind that the deck is not meant to speed out the combo, meaning that doing it too early risks it getting shot and forcing you on the plan B that this deck mainly uses to win.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I have one question concerning Burgeoning. At the moment, I am playing this card but somehow it never really had much impact in any of the games I played. As I play 42 lands only (including three non-mana producing lands: Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm and Dark Depths) I suspect that I do not play enough lands to fully exploit the potential of Burgeoning. Do you think that this is a plausible reasoning? If yes, how many lands would you suggest playing in order to make the most of Burgeoning? Moreover, if I decided to stay with these 42 lands, would it make sense to cut Burgeoning for Sensei's Divining Top?
Burgeoning is sort of like an Exploration that is better early and slightly worse late. However, it can produce quite a potent effect when you repeatedly loam your deck. Are you often tutoring for Life from the Loam? If so, it might work out a bit better when you can guarantee having lands in hand.
Your land count is probably fine. I went down to 43 myself and divining top's ability to activate between fetches has been royally saving my butt. A good idea to find room for it. Library is fine too but it's not on the same level in this deck.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.