Have you ever considered finding space for mana dorks? I've built my Karametra deck so that I maximize the chance to play a dork on turn one and follow with another ramp spell on turn two, like Cultivate, so that I can play Karametra on turn three.
No. It was a suggestion that has come up before and it is not the route I prefer to take. They work reasonably well with Karametra in that they get her down quicker, offer cheap ways to trigger her ability, and can offer bodies to attack with once the game goes longer when paired with Kamahl.
The main issue is that they are generally terrible top decks and they die easily which means they are less reliant forms of ramp. If I was more concerned about getting Karametra down sooner, I might think about running more of them. But I don't generally need Karametra to come down sooner (even in the last game with *no* ramp for Karametra, I still managed to stabilize pretty easily). I am generally more concerned about ramping with lands, as they are tougher to deal with, and working to build a board state of bigger creatures to swing in with.
I think mana dorks can make the deck faster if that is what someone wants to do, but I have found that I like where the deck is at right now. Plus, finding room for mana dorks means (since I would need more than just a couple if I wanted to go that route) I have to get rid of too much else that makes the deck what it is now.
I think the deck could probably use a couple more pieces of 3 CMC ramp. Probably run Cultivate, Kodama's reach and Nissa's Pilgrimage. They're not like super synergy with Karametra but they're really nice bridges to 5 mana from 3 (essentially if you cast one at 3 you will cast karametra on turn 4 100% of the time unless you're missing a white source for some reason and hit Pilgrimage.
Those cards are just exceptional with 5 cmc commanders.
I'd also consider playing Arbor and GSZ.
But I agree with your general sentiment that topdecking a mana dork is not ideal. Mana dorks are in general kinda weak with 5 CMC commanders because they require you to draw 4 lands in your first 10 or so cards (or another ramp spell) which is not guaranteed. I tend to prefer mana dorks with 4 CMC and lower (especially 3 CMC) commanders, or special cases.
Not sure if they've been mentioned yet or if you've included and then cut them but avenger of zendikar, admonition angel and rampaging baloths are made for karametra with all of that land spewing onto the battlefield
I think the deck could probably use a couple more pieces of 3 CMC ramp. Probably run Cultivate, Kodama's reach and Nissa's Pilgrimage.
After running Cultivate in Lord Windgrace, I have started thinking a little different on these cards. They do work quite nicely to ensure I get 5 mana for Karametra (hopefully on turn 4) whereas the creature ramp only guarantees me to be on 4 mana. It always feels bad to have the ramp to get to 4, but then miss a land drop for a turn or two. I don't think I would play Pilgrimage since it only gets basic Forests (I really want to make sure I can get either color), but Cultivate and Reach are possibilities. I would likely look at Seedguide Ash, Dawntreader Elk (which is tough to cut since it is only 2 mana to cast), and Solemn Simulacrum as the cards to cut for 3 CMC ramp. I think Seedguide and Solemn make the most sense as neither really fills in a weak spot of the deck and may just be "fluff".
I'd also consider playing Arbor and GSZ.
I already have Dryad Arbor (mostly for Protean Hulk) and I could definitely see adding Green Sun's Zenith to the mix. I have started cutting Realm Seekers from decks and I think I would do so here to fit in GSZ. Even with the 3 cuts I mentioned, I still have 36 creatures in the deck so I am not going too low on that.
Not sure if they've been mentioned yet or if you've included and then cut them but avenger of zendikar, admonition angel and rampaging baloths are made for karametra with all of that land spewing onto the battlefield
It might make sense to include (and I had it in the initial list) but I despise Avenger of Zendikar. Not for any real good reason, mind you. But it is a card that I never like seeing in my games.
For me, and the way my games tend to play out, it borders on being a "win-more" card. I know there are scenarios where it can end a game quicker than they do end, but I have just never felt that it added anything to the deck. Trying to go wide with an army (and the Baloths falls into this as well) is fine but I always like playing more of a controlling game where there is a bit more back and forth. Avenger just stops the game and now becomes the other 3 players either finding their wrath or dying.
The Angel is a bit more interesting as it does allow for a bit more control over what is happening in the game. Being a flyer is also relevant as the deck can sometimes have a hard time against flyers (not so much that I need to find specific answers to them, but enough that an extra flyer is welcome), but 6 mana is a lot to invest in a temporary effect. And, based on the way my games generally go, it doesn't appear to be an effect that I need at this time.
I swear I did a search for Arbor and missed it But yeah, GSZ for realm seekers seems solid to me- ramps early, finds fatties late, etc.
I think Pilgrimage is fine; you've got a ton of white sources and odds are in favor of you hitting one, and once you've got 1 it's fine since Karametra will fix from there.
I think your cuts seem reasonable. Solemn is really iffy in this deck in my opinion, since ramping on 4 is rarely that valuable and your deck doesn't really value just having a body that much (literally any creature you play at 4 is solemn simulacrum, plus can do other important stuff, e.g. Temur Sabertooth).
As a quick update, I did end up cutting Solemn Simulacrum for Kodama's Reach. I haven't had many chances to try out the new changes but I am hoping to get a game or two in with the deck tonight.
I played this deck the other night and it went reasonably well. I played against Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire and something else (I can't remember what).
The game started off super slow in that I did not get any real ramp early on. I ended up just casting Greater Good on turn 4, Karametra turn 5 and then Selvala's Stampede turn 6. I didn't get much (Grand Abolisher off the top and a Wood Elves and Regal Force from hand). I ended up getting a Dryad Arbor off the Wood Elves so I could get a little more value out of Regal Force.
Karametra was removed at one point but Yeva, Nature's Herald allowed me to cast her at an opportune time. From there, I just ramped and used Greater Good to try to dig. I never really got much for big stuff though I did get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite down which allowed me to swing with my smaller (now slightly bigger) creatures. To finish things off, I did get a Protean Hulk into a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa so I could just overrun the other players.
I did see Green Sun's Zenith which is what got me Protean Hulk and that play alone was good enough to warrant the inclusion of GSZ. It did cost a bit of mana and I got Hulk because I knew I could sac it later as needed, but being able to get to an answer or a threat like that was very useful.
Karametra is definitely a toolbox style general and, as such, I have considered adding in Birthing Pod somewhere. My curve is actually pretty decent to allow for it. None of the spots on the curve have any gaps and most spots on the curve have something I am willing to get off Pod (to get an ETB trigger) and then sac for the next level. I am not sure I want to go that far into this for this build as I am not sure how oppressive or unfun that can be to play against but 1 use per turn, at Sorcery timing, doesn't seem to be too bad. It is certainly a "must answer" card but not one that just runs away with the game (at least, not right away).
I am considering whether I really want to keep Ghalta, Primal Hunger and Emeria Shepherd. The former is good since it is often a 12/12 trampler for GG but I am not sure if that is really good enough. It doesn't do enough on its own and I like my creatures to be able to do more when they enter. And Kamahl takes care of being able to alpha strike someone that I don't like Ghalta is really worth it. And Emeria Shepherd is high on the curve. She is powerful and useful, but being 7 mana has its downsides and I have found a couple times where it is in my hand and it takes forever to cast it.
I played this deck the other night against Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Progenitus, and either Baird or Tawnos (I don't remember which deck that person was playing). I chose this deck as I just finished a game where I got mana screwed pretty heavily and this deck rarely does.
The game got off to a fairly fast start. I ramped on turn 3, got Karametra turn 4, and then just kept on going. Karametra was never dealt with so I just kept getting more and more lands with each creature. I cast a Selvala's Stampede and everyone voted for Wild (I voted for Free). I got a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Dragonlord Dromaka, and Oracle of Mul Daya of the Wild votes. I then dropped in an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite from hand which helped out a lot. Kamahl was the most important card as I had a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and I had a bunch of devotion to Green. I was able to activate Kamahl twice just with Nykthos mana and I also had a Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun which gave me even more mana. The game ended shortly after this since players could not deal with 30+ trample damage coming at them.
The game ended pretty quickly and the deck functioned superbly well. The only critique is probably that I didn't ramp until turn 3 but that is a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things.
Another successful game with this deck occurred the other night. I was playing against Tawnos, Kaalia, and something else (Zacama I think).
The game started off how it normally does where I just ramped into Karametra and then ramped with all my creatures. At one point, Zacama put Overwhelming Splendor on Kaalia since I couldn't be targeted due to Shalai. Kaalia then exiled it with Banishing Light so they could play again. I did end up having to cast Bane of Progress to deal with other board states so of course the Splendor ended up getting attached to me.
I finally found an answer in Vivien Reid and destroyed the splendor. In the mean time, Tawnos had cast a Mycosynth Lattice. I had Emeria, the Sky Ruin online with Bane of Progress in my graveyard. I targeted Bane of Progress and got it back. Then, in response to the trigger, I cast Heroic Intervention to make all my stuff indestructible and blow up everything else. Someone tried to respond with something so I just cast Chord of Calling for 8 and got Avacyn. Everyone's stuff went away (including lands) and I had a board full of stuff. The game ended there as there was really no point in continuing.
Generally speaking, this is why I hate Mycosynth Lattice. Too many games end because of a different player using the Lattice to their advantage. But, the issue of course is that if Tawnos was going to Vandalblast on their turn, then the game is done too so it makes for a very frustrating experience and an unsatisfying ending in either case. I don't really feel guilty about using someone else's card against them but if I never Saw Mycosynth Lattice again, I would be happy since it is never used for anything other that blowing up the board.
The main issue is that they are generally terrible top decks and they die easily which means they are less reliant forms of ramp. If I was more concerned about getting Karametra down sooner, I might think about running more of them. But I don't generally need Karametra to come down sooner (even in the last game with *no* ramp for Karametra, I still managed to stabilize pretty easily). I am generally more concerned about ramping with lands, as they are tougher to deal with, and working to build a board state of bigger creatures to swing in with.
I think mana dorks can make the deck faster if that is what someone wants to do, but I have found that I like where the deck is at right now. Plus, finding room for mana dorks means (since I would need more than just a couple if I wanted to go that route) I have to get rid of too much else that makes the deck what it is now.
Those cards are just exceptional with 5 cmc commanders.
I'd also consider playing Arbor and GSZ.
But I agree with your general sentiment that topdecking a mana dork is not ideal. Mana dorks are in general kinda weak with 5 CMC commanders because they require you to draw 4 lands in your first 10 or so cards (or another ramp spell) which is not guaranteed. I tend to prefer mana dorks with 4 CMC and lower (especially 3 CMC) commanders, or special cases.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDH:
[Primer]C Kozilek, Butcher of Truth C
RGNikya of the Old WaysGR
I already have Dryad Arbor (mostly for Protean Hulk) and I could definitely see adding Green Sun's Zenith to the mix. I have started cutting Realm Seekers from decks and I think I would do so here to fit in GSZ. Even with the 3 cuts I mentioned, I still have 36 creatures in the deck so I am not going too low on that.
It might make sense to include (and I had it in the initial list) but I despise Avenger of Zendikar. Not for any real good reason, mind you. But it is a card that I never like seeing in my games.
For me, and the way my games tend to play out, it borders on being a "win-more" card. I know there are scenarios where it can end a game quicker than they do end, but I have just never felt that it added anything to the deck. Trying to go wide with an army (and the Baloths falls into this as well) is fine but I always like playing more of a controlling game where there is a bit more back and forth. Avenger just stops the game and now becomes the other 3 players either finding their wrath or dying.
The Angel is a bit more interesting as it does allow for a bit more control over what is happening in the game. Being a flyer is also relevant as the deck can sometimes have a hard time against flyers (not so much that I need to find specific answers to them, but enough that an extra flyer is welcome), but 6 mana is a lot to invest in a temporary effect. And, based on the way my games generally go, it doesn't appear to be an effect that I need at this time.
I think Pilgrimage is fine; you've got a ton of white sources and odds are in favor of you hitting one, and once you've got 1 it's fine since Karametra will fix from there.
I think your cuts seem reasonable. Solemn is really iffy in this deck in my opinion, since ramping on 4 is rarely that valuable and your deck doesn't really value just having a body that much (literally any creature you play at 4 is solemn simulacrum, plus can do other important stuff, e.g. Temur Sabertooth).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
CUTS
Seedguide Ash
Realm Seekers
ADDS
Cultivate
Green Sun's Zenith
I will add in Kodama's Reach over Solemn Simulacrum but my only copy is in another deck so I need to pick one up first.
The game started off super slow in that I did not get any real ramp early on. I ended up just casting Greater Good on turn 4, Karametra turn 5 and then Selvala's Stampede turn 6. I didn't get much (Grand Abolisher off the top and a Wood Elves and Regal Force from hand). I ended up getting a Dryad Arbor off the Wood Elves so I could get a little more value out of Regal Force.
Karametra was removed at one point but Yeva, Nature's Herald allowed me to cast her at an opportune time. From there, I just ramped and used Greater Good to try to dig. I never really got much for big stuff though I did get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite down which allowed me to swing with my smaller (now slightly bigger) creatures. To finish things off, I did get a Protean Hulk into a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa so I could just overrun the other players.
I did see Green Sun's Zenith which is what got me Protean Hulk and that play alone was good enough to warrant the inclusion of GSZ. It did cost a bit of mana and I got Hulk because I knew I could sac it later as needed, but being able to get to an answer or a threat like that was very useful.
Karametra is definitely a toolbox style general and, as such, I have considered adding in Birthing Pod somewhere. My curve is actually pretty decent to allow for it. None of the spots on the curve have any gaps and most spots on the curve have something I am willing to get off Pod (to get an ETB trigger) and then sac for the next level. I am not sure I want to go that far into this for this build as I am not sure how oppressive or unfun that can be to play against but 1 use per turn, at Sorcery timing, doesn't seem to be too bad. It is certainly a "must answer" card but not one that just runs away with the game (at least, not right away).
I am considering whether I really want to keep Ghalta, Primal Hunger and Emeria Shepherd. The former is good since it is often a 12/12 trampler for GG but I am not sure if that is really good enough. It doesn't do enough on its own and I like my creatures to be able to do more when they enter. And Kamahl takes care of being able to alpha strike someone that I don't like Ghalta is really worth it. And Emeria Shepherd is high on the curve. She is powerful and useful, but being 7 mana has its downsides and I have found a couple times where it is in my hand and it takes forever to cast it.
The game got off to a fairly fast start. I ramped on turn 3, got Karametra turn 4, and then just kept on going. Karametra was never dealt with so I just kept getting more and more lands with each creature. I cast a Selvala's Stampede and everyone voted for Wild (I voted for Free). I got a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Dragonlord Dromaka, and Oracle of Mul Daya of the Wild votes. I then dropped in an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite from hand which helped out a lot. Kamahl was the most important card as I had a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and I had a bunch of devotion to Green. I was able to activate Kamahl twice just with Nykthos mana and I also had a Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun which gave me even more mana. The game ended shortly after this since players could not deal with 30+ trample damage coming at them.
The game ended pretty quickly and the deck functioned superbly well. The only critique is probably that I didn't ramp until turn 3 but that is a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things.
The game started off how it normally does where I just ramped into Karametra and then ramped with all my creatures. At one point, Zacama put Overwhelming Splendor on Kaalia since I couldn't be targeted due to Shalai. Kaalia then exiled it with Banishing Light so they could play again. I did end up having to cast Bane of Progress to deal with other board states so of course the Splendor ended up getting attached to me.
I finally found an answer in Vivien Reid and destroyed the splendor. In the mean time, Tawnos had cast a Mycosynth Lattice. I had Emeria, the Sky Ruin online with Bane of Progress in my graveyard. I targeted Bane of Progress and got it back. Then, in response to the trigger, I cast Heroic Intervention to make all my stuff indestructible and blow up everything else. Someone tried to respond with something so I just cast Chord of Calling for 8 and got Avacyn. Everyone's stuff went away (including lands) and I had a board full of stuff. The game ended there as there was really no point in continuing.
Generally speaking, this is why I hate Mycosynth Lattice. Too many games end because of a different player using the Lattice to their advantage. But, the issue of course is that if Tawnos was going to Vandalblast on their turn, then the game is done too so it makes for a very frustrating experience and an unsatisfying ending in either case. I don't really feel guilty about using someone else's card against them but if I never Saw Mycosynth Lattice again, I would be happy since it is never used for anything other that blowing up the board.