Has Mana Vault or Grim Monolith been considered for the deck?
I've thought about Mana Vault a bit, but in practice, I'm using less and less colorless mana as I play, so while Mana Crypt and Sol Ring make the cut, I don't think Mana Vault does, and Grim Monolith certainly doesn't. I was actually just reconsidering Mana Vault in this deck like an hour ago, funny you should ask now. If I was running more artifacts, or things like Helm of Awakening, Mana Vault might be good enough. Or if I were trying to go off with Monolith combos, obviously Grim Monolith would be worth it. But right now that's not where I think this deck wants to be at.
There are people that are bad at magic. I am one. Still, I have read so many of these primers I am starting to think like you smart guys. The idea I had was to switch Into the Roil with Cyclonic Rift. Is the ability to draw a card more relevant than the overload? Next, I would drop Turnabout and put in Mana Vault. I know Skuloth dropped Turnabout from his list and it is not in Jeleva Slim's deck. Both play Mana Vault and Grim Monolith.
Heh, I wouldn't say I'm any better honestly. I don't honestly know about Into the Roil vs. Cyclonic Rift. I don't usually have enough mana to Overload, but that potential upside might really be better than drawing a card. It's likely going to be a slot I swap back and forth between the two forever and never really come to a conclusion on. Turnabout isn't as necessary in those lists as they run less fat, inherently, than I do due to the presence of Auriok Salvagers and a couple green "midrangey" cards. Having a card that's a gigantic storm-off ritual has proven useful, but I can totally see cutting it. Those lists do run a lot more artifacts than I do, but I could be totally wrong in omitting Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. The only real way to know for sure is to try, so if you do run the list with those cuts, I would love to hear how it turns out!!
You have got all the pressure on you handling those competitive animals in the videos. Am I right that you are 2-1 with this deck? You guys are the rock stars of competitive edh. The shop I play at in Birmingham Alabama does not have many competitive players. I am living vicariously through you.
Hahaha I am, yeah! In off camera games my record is even better, or, well, larger. I probably have something like a 66% win rate with it across tens of games. We're really enjoying our little project at this point. It's gotten way bigger way faster than we expected, glad you're enjoying it! I know most people don't have competitive scenes near them, that's why we all started playing over Discord! If you have access to a webcam and computer (though even a phone camera can work) you should join and play!
That is great. You have been really modest. I would not change a thing in a deck with that kind of win percentage.
You guys would go through me like crap through a goose.
Ah not at all! It's probably just a really good meta for this type of list to be in. Since no one else really plays this deck (that I know of) it needs a lot more testing to be able to get fully vetted. My main goal with this primer was to attract enough interest to have multiple players to discuss and improve the deck with!
Have you given any consideration to Mystic Remora? Skuloth does not have it in his Zur Doomsday list but it has been recommended several times.
What happened to Thrasios/Tymna Doomtide being your go to deck for the videos? Is your 66% winning percentage exclusively against Laboratory Maniacs? Does Tasigur have the next highest win percentage?
Well anyway, I was pulling for you, Dan the Man. It was another superb video. You guys have it all with great personalities, game play and excellent production quality (and accents).
I have, and it's one of the main cards I want to find room for next. I'm still testing, so I'm not sure what to do about it yet. In a similar vein, Dark Confidant is also on my watch list for cards to cram in. We try and go on a King of the Hill type system, so if you reverse Episode 4 and 5 (since those got released in reverse order), I won two in a row and lost the third, forcing me to switch off. Don't worry though, it'll absolutely be coming back, but it might take until Season 2 depending on how things break! That isn't totally against the LabMen, since I do play pickup games with other people on the Discord, but the majority of the games do tend to end up being mostly LabMen, for whatever reason. I do admit that it is extremely good against our current meta, which is part of the reason for the bizzarely high win rate. Tasigur certainly wins a decent amount, but I haven;t been paying super close attention to the other players deck to try and track their stats. I'm going to start actively tracking all my decks win stats going forward to figure these things out, though.
Thank you! Definitely got blasted that game. I'm not a fantastic Jeleva pilot yet, but things definitely broke the wrong way that game. Wait until you see my next deck choice, I bet you'll never be able to guess it hahaha! Thank you for all the kind words! Look forward to even more improvements this season, and plenty more with Season 2!
What cards are underperforming? What two cards are you switching for Dark Confident and Mystic Remora in testing? I have two in mind that are not in Skuloth's Zur Doomsday list. My question is how often do you win through storm/Aetherflux Reservoir as opposed to Doomsday and the Bomberman combo? If Aetherflux is the third option, would it make sense to remove two cards that aid but are not essential in storming? It would seem Dark Confidant and Mystic Remora have much broader applications.
I ask these questions because you have been encouraging and shown a willingness to take a Magic novice's opinion seriously. The deck from your reports is performing well above expectations. It may be a case of if it is not broke don't fix it.
Honestly, nothing has really underperformed for me. Even Mind's Desire was doing it's job excellently for me while it was in the deck. Doomsday is actually the least used of my kill cards, with Bomberman being 1 and storm being 2. I haven't gotten a chance to slot in either of those two yet, as I haven't been playing much lately (PhD qualifying exams coming up next week) so I haven't given it much thought yet. Remand is still only Remand because "mana issues" but it probably will turn into Counterspell the next time I chew through my list again, maybe in a week or two. I am 100% open to suggestions, and even prefer suggestions from newer players because they don't have entrenched opinions. If the suggestions isn't one I like, I may even change opinions while I'm trying to argue in favor of the card I thought I wanted to keep, and so on. Season 2, while technically not specified, will likely end up starting sometime in May or June. We'll be posting announcements about it when Season 1 is wrapping up. While I don't want to spoiler future episodes, I think I might be able to squeeze another game in with this deck before the end of the season, but we shall see.
Dan, you are a baller and shot caller. You tell those losers which deck you are going to play and.that is it.
Well, I was way off in my speculation on the most frequent kill cards. I thought storm would be bringing up the rear.
Hurkyl's Recall and Turnabout were going to be my suggested test cuts.
Hahaha thanks, I think I will. And don't feel too bad. I thought I would be casting Doomsday way more than I normally do. If I was going to shy away from storm, I would still probably leave in Hurkyl's to fight stax decks or harass Teferi. And I would definitely turn Into the Roil into Cyclonic Rift at that point. And slot in Dramatic Scepter combo and such. But that's a lot of changes that I don't think are warranted right now, given how powerful the storm kill really is in this deck.
I really like the latest deck tech. Is this sweeps week for MTG deck videos? Sigi is bringing out his number one star. How are the tests going?
Was the deck tech filmed before February 2nd? The reason I ask is that was the date you removed Mind's Deaire. It appears in the deck tech in the bad opening hand portion.
Is Leovold your go to answer for stax effects? It seemed that way from the video. What circumstances if any would you tutor for Leovold?
Thanks! And they went...something haha. It was real rough. Hopefully I did juuuuuust well enough for the pass.
Yeah it was filmed a couple weeks before my most recent updates, which is a bit awkward for that reason.
He sort of is, though I wouldn't phrase it as an answer, and more as a play pattern. I like to tutor for him if I have a single creature tutor and maybe a grindy card, with the rest of my resources being ramp. Getting a mana advantage early and then tanking under a Sylvan Library or with Leovold + Tymna is a great spot to be in.
I was minutes away from asking (yet) another question. I read the debate on the Reddit competitive edh forum concerning the best build for Thrasios. Here is the opening shot as a point of context:
"I tested both the high tide version and the angel one and neither tops the paradox/bomberman version made by Librudder. The high tide version felt like a worse ANDD Zur, while the angel one is great for one session - after that people just know what to expect and disrupt it often."
You and Librudder seemed to take the high road. Did you test any of these builds? You must believe your build is the best (as do I). If I asked you to state your case, what would you say? Feel free to ignore this question as you just went through your tests. I was aware of the other lists before I started posting on your thread.
Did you decide on Mystic Remora? I have been asking Skuloth about its exclusion from his Zur Doomsday list.
So I'm ashamed to say that the extent of my testing of the other two main builds has been limited to goldfishing on Tappedout, due to time constraints recently. I believe Sigi is going to be building Lilbrudder's list, so we're actually going to have all three represented by the Labmen, which makes individual testing of each deck less important for me. We're probably going to arrive at a conclusion within a couple months, but it may take a while to get enough games in with the ones that aren't mine, as I've had the head start for our group.
On the topic of the other guy's opening comment, I strongly disagree that this deck feels like a worse Doomsday Zur, and I'd chalk that up to him playing it wrong. This deck feels like a Doomsday Zur list that has mid and late game options. It might be a couple percentage points worse on the 3rd-4th turn, but I don't even necessarily believe that, but I've mentioned that kind of thing already.
I think Sigi put it really well in that thread, the differences between these decks mostly just come down to meta calls and personal preference. Hermit Druid has the potential for super easy mode games. HD is the ultimate example in presenting your opponents with the situation of "I will win next turn unless you interect," and sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't. HD forces them to have it, which is something that I love about the deck. Same thing with casting Buried Alive in that build. One card win conditions, but more heavily reliant on them, from what I can tell. Mine is less single card reliant and more synergy driven, so no one card can be taken out to collapse the deck. Lilbrudders is a very different beast, that I like Sigi's comparison of to Yidris Storm more than Thras/Tymna decks.
I definitely want Remora, and I'm only now getting back into tinkering with the list so we shall see how the unfolds. It's super strong, but not necessarily something I really want to be doing on turn one, as developing your mana is beyond critical in this list. I like it better in Lilbrudder's version of the deck, but it may have a place in mine as well.
Can you suggest some budget options for the cards over $100 ?
That's really difficult in this deck, and in four color decks as a whole. If you can't play the original duals, you honestly can't make a good build of this deck at the level of competition that even a $200 Yisan build is going to reach. I strongly encourage proxying those cards you find out of your budget, but I understand that not every group views those as positively as I do. I would recommend sticking to other decks if your budget restricts you from playing all the cards over $100, as there are several cards that just don't have good substitutes in that range. A decent upgrade path in that regard would be JVP High Tide -> Dralnu Storm -> Zur Doomsday -> This List.
Thanks Dan. I was going to point out something even before seeing the HD Thras/Tymna deck. Is Deathrite Shaman your only answer to graveyard based decks? It seems like the Hermit Druid build could really be hampered by the plethera of graveyard hate. Am I overstating the case?
Mostly, yeah. I try not to include toooooo many cards that can't work both on offense and defense, which strong graveyard hate would fall under. HD folds to strong graveyard hate that gets to stick around, but we're mostly in the market for combo juice, we're not a control deck, regardless of how effectively we can grind.
Well, I made the leap and invested in this from basically scratch. Well worth it for me, I love complex decisions and the multiple routes to get there. Thank you for the primer!
Thank you for trying it! It is still new, so it's obviously in flux, but I am absolutely sure there's an optimized list somewhere at the end of this rabbithole. I'd love to hear how it works out for you, and all your thoughts as you play it!
How is this a primer? 28 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count. Every mull after the first is just less chance of having a land.
I've thought about Mana Vault a bit, but in practice, I'm using less and less colorless mana as I play, so while Mana Crypt and Sol Ring make the cut, I don't think Mana Vault does, and Grim Monolith certainly doesn't. I was actually just reconsidering Mana Vault in this deck like an hour ago, funny you should ask now. If I was running more artifacts, or things like Helm of Awakening, Mana Vault might be good enough. Or if I were trying to go off with Monolith combos, obviously Grim Monolith would be worth it. But right now that's not where I think this deck wants to be at.
You guys would go through me like crap through a goose.
What happened to Thrasios/Tymna Doomtide being your go to deck for the videos? Is your 66% winning percentage exclusively against Laboratory Maniacs? Does Tasigur have the next highest win percentage?
Well anyway, I was pulling for you, Dan the Man. It was another superb video. You guys have it all with great personalities, game play and excellent production quality (and accents).
Thank you! Definitely got blasted that game. I'm not a fantastic Jeleva pilot yet, but things definitely broke the wrong way that game. Wait until you see my next deck choice, I bet you'll never be able to guess it hahaha! Thank you for all the kind words! Look forward to even more improvements this season, and plenty more with Season 2!
With the removal of Mind's Desire, is there a reason Remand is not Counterspell?
I ask these questions because you have been encouraging and shown a willingness to take a Magic novice's opinion seriously. The deck from your reports is performing well above expectations. It may be a case of if it is not broke don't fix it.
When will season two start?
Well, I was way off in my speculation on the most frequent kill cards. I thought storm would be bringing up the rear.
Hurkyl's Recall and Turnabout were going to be my suggested test cuts.
Was the deck tech filmed before February 2nd? The reason I ask is that was the date you removed Mind's Deaire. It appears in the deck tech in the bad opening hand portion.
Is Leovold your go to answer for stax effects? It seemed that way from the video. What circumstances if any would you tutor for Leovold?
Yeah it was filmed a couple weeks before my most recent updates, which is a bit awkward for that reason.
He sort of is, though I wouldn't phrase it as an answer, and more as a play pattern. I like to tutor for him if I have a single creature tutor and maybe a grindy card, with the rest of my resources being ramp. Getting a mana advantage early and then tanking under a Sylvan Library or with Leovold + Tymna is a great spot to be in.
"I tested both the high tide version and the angel one and neither tops the paradox/bomberman version made by Librudder. The high tide version felt like a worse ANDD Zur, while the angel one is great for one session - after that people just know what to expect and disrupt it often."
You and Librudder seemed to take the high road. Did you test any of these builds? You must believe your build is the best (as do I). If I asked you to state your case, what would you say? Feel free to ignore this question as you just went through your tests. I was aware of the other lists before I started posting on your thread.
Did you decide on Mystic Remora? I have been asking Skuloth about its exclusion from his Zur Doomsday list.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
So I'm ashamed to say that the extent of my testing of the other two main builds has been limited to goldfishing on Tappedout, due to time constraints recently. I believe Sigi is going to be building Lilbrudder's list, so we're actually going to have all three represented by the Labmen, which makes individual testing of each deck less important for me. We're probably going to arrive at a conclusion within a couple months, but it may take a while to get enough games in with the ones that aren't mine, as I've had the head start for our group.
On the topic of the other guy's opening comment, I strongly disagree that this deck feels like a worse Doomsday Zur, and I'd chalk that up to him playing it wrong. This deck feels like a Doomsday Zur list that has mid and late game options. It might be a couple percentage points worse on the 3rd-4th turn, but I don't even necessarily believe that, but I've mentioned that kind of thing already.
I think Sigi put it really well in that thread, the differences between these decks mostly just come down to meta calls and personal preference. Hermit Druid has the potential for super easy mode games. HD is the ultimate example in presenting your opponents with the situation of "I will win next turn unless you interect," and sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't. HD forces them to have it, which is something that I love about the deck. Same thing with casting Buried Alive in that build. One card win conditions, but more heavily reliant on them, from what I can tell. Mine is less single card reliant and more synergy driven, so no one card can be taken out to collapse the deck. Lilbrudders is a very different beast, that I like Sigi's comparison of to Yidris Storm more than Thras/Tymna decks.
I definitely want Remora, and I'm only now getting back into tinkering with the list so we shall see how the unfolds. It's super strong, but not necessarily something I really want to be doing on turn one, as developing your mana is beyond critical in this list. I like it better in Lilbrudder's version of the deck, but it may have a place in mine as well.
That's really difficult in this deck, and in four color decks as a whole. If you can't play the original duals, you honestly can't make a good build of this deck at the level of competition that even a $200 Yisan build is going to reach. I strongly encourage proxying those cards you find out of your budget, but I understand that not every group views those as positively as I do. I would recommend sticking to other decks if your budget restricts you from playing all the cards over $100, as there are several cards that just don't have good substitutes in that range. A decent upgrade path in that regard would be JVP High Tide -> Dralnu Storm -> Zur Doomsday -> This List.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith