Toxic Deluge is far superior to Dead of Winter, yes, but why not run both? If you only have one spot obviously it goes to Toxic Deluge, but Dead of Winter could be an excellent supplemental removal spell and is well worth testing in my opinion. Three mana is just such a great price for a scaling wrath effect, but maybe mana cost is somewhat irrelevant in a deck that can generate so much mana.
On another note, Glacial Chasm is hilarious. Not only do some decks just automatically lose to it due to not being able to answer it, it interacts wonderfully with Pestilence/Withering Wisps.
Toxic Deluge is far superior to Dead of Winter, yes, but why not run both? If you only have one spot obviously it goes to Toxic Deluge, but Dead of Winter could be an excellent supplemental removal spell and is well worth testing in my opinion. Three mana is just such a great price for a scaling wrath effect, but maybe mana cost is somewhat irrelevant in a deck that can generate so much mana.
On another note, Glacial Chasm is hilarious. Not only do some decks just automatically lose to it due to not being able to answer it, it interacts wonderfully with Pestilence/Withering Wisps.
Sure, I just try to not overload on sweepers if possible.
Okay, I can admit when my instincts are wrong. I actually drew into Dead of Winter a lot but it was rarely ever a relevant play, which is unfortunate. Defile also underperformed. Sorry, Modern Horizons, you were junk for me. Both are out.
On the bright side, Scheming Symmetry looks bonkers. Not only does it have obvious political implications ("you find enchantment removal for me, I'll find a wrath for you"), with Erebos out in the late game it might as well be a Grim Tutor, which I only don't run due to financial reasons. I really like this card and fully expect it to perform admirably.
I've made some other cuts as well. Dark Depths never activated, and upon further reflection I realized that it was superfluous. Blanking enemy creature removal is one of the strong suits of the deck, and Marit Lage is a magnet for Swords to Plowshares and friends. I never drew Withering Wisps, but I'm sure it would perform only slightly worse than Pestilence. However, I'm cutting the Snow-Covered Swamps for simple basics and as a result Wisps is unplayable. Aesthetics matter.
As for what to put in, since I'm in a new meta that I suspect to be more competent in both play and deckbuilding, I'm retrying Shrouded Lore. I think I'll be able to pull some political shenanigans down here. Malicious Affliction is back in over Defile, and Star Compass is just another cheap mana rock to enable a turn 3 Erebos. With the 8 cheap rocks, I have approximately a 55% chance (if I did the math right) to see one by turn two, which means that about half the time I should be able to power him out a turn early.
Are you (and my other mono-black friends) satisfied with the number of lands you're running? I'm currently sitting at 35 mana producing lands plus 8 rocks and I'm not sure those numbers are right. Most MBC lists from 60 card formats typically ran 25 lands due to how mana hungry they are. 25/60 is roughly 42%, which is much higher than the roughly 35% that I'm currently running. I am running a decent number of rocks, though, and if you factor them in as being equal to half of a land, that comes to roughly 39%, which is still low. However, I'm not sure I agree with that conventional wisdom with regards to mana rocks. Two cost rocks are very important in my deck, but so is hitting land drops every turn until the late game. I would guess that even though you're not running the big dumb X spells our decks are similarly mana hungry due to Chainer's ability in the mid and late game.
For posterity, here is my current mana configuration:
If we consider Sol Ring to be on par with a land by itself and cut the weakest mana rock (Star Compass) for a land, the percentage comes to roughly 40%. That seems closer to being correct due to Erebos drawing all the cards and enabling those precious land drops. On the other hand, more rocks means a higher chance to land Erebos on turn 3 and as we all know, consistency is important. Maybe the difference is marginal but I'm really split on which way to take.
This is what I run. I'm less focused on getting Erebos out on t2/3, though it does happen often enough to make me smile. I would rather have a few more mana sources in deck and run ways to mitigate a flood than get stuck for a few turns missing land drops. I did run Mind Stone, Jet Medalion, Fellwar Stone but found them all fairly weak overall for what I want to be doing so ended cutting them a while ago.
Are you (and my other mono-black friends) satisfied with the number of lands you're running? I'm currently sitting at 35 mana producing lands plus 8 rocks and I'm not sure those numbers are right. Most MBC lists from 60 card formats typically ran 25 lands due to how mana hungry they are. 25/60 is roughly 42%, which is much higher than the roughly 35% that I'm currently running. I am running a decent number of rocks, though, and if you factor them in as being equal to half of a land, that comes to roughly 39%, which is still low. However, I'm not sure I agree with that conventional wisdom with regards to mana rocks. Two cost rocks are very important in my deck, but so is hitting land drops every turn until the late game. I would guess that even though you're not running the big dumb X spells our decks are similarly mana hungry due to Chainer's ability in the mid and late game.
For posterity, here is my current mana configuration:
If we consider Sol Ring to be on par with a land by itself and cut the weakest mana rock (Star Compass) for a land, the percentage comes to roughly 40%. That seems closer to being correct due to Erebos drawing all the cards and enabling those precious land drops. On the other hand, more rocks means a higher chance to land Erebos on turn 3 and as we all know, consistency is important. Maybe the difference is marginal but I'm really split on which way to take.
EDIT: Happy second birthday, thread!
Not an easy question for me to answer, but I'll start with my current configuration of mana-related stuff:
"Independent" means I can usually just play that and have extra mana, while "Dependent" means other things have to be going on for them to help with mana (usually synergy or a loop). YawgWin and Crucible can help make sure I hit at least one land drop each, but they're slightly dependent even though it's often easy enough to have a land or two in the graveyard — especially a fetch, and I've burned one of my few tutors before going for Crucible if I have a fetch or vice versa.
I think about my mana a bit differently because of the use of combos like token-producers with Phyrexian Altar. Last game I played with Chainer (it's a little while between games these days), I sat on a swamp and a C land for a few turns and got lucky with Abhorrent Overlord, Deathgreeter, and Phyrexian Altar. Even though I struggled a bit at first and missed a few drops, I ended the game with 6 lands that could have only produced 3BBB, and that seemed like a normal game to me. It does make it more vulnerable to somebody exiling the Altar and/or Pitiless Plunderer and cutting me off from that ability, but I'm okay with that.
Dang, only 32 mana producing lands? That seems incredibly low. Do you find yourself consistently missing land drops in the early game? You do run the larger rocks that I don't, so maybe that mitigates missing the drops in the mid and late game a bit.
"Rocks"
How have the bigger rocks like Dynamo and Lotus been working for you? I mean, obviously at least pretty decently since you still run them, but I've never tried them in Erebos. Outside of specific decks like Daretti and Paradox Engine combo. I'm a little skeptical about running expensive ramp since when I have 4-5 mana available is when I'm ready to start dropping permanents that affect the game state. All that said, the deck is very mana hungry and having big boosters that don't rely on lands could be very good.
"Independent" means I can usually just play that and have extra mana, while "Dependent" means other things have to be going on for them to help with mana (usually synergy or a loop). YawgWin and Crucible can help make sure I hit at least one land drop each, but they're slightly dependent even though it's often easy enough to have a land or two in the graveyard — especially a fetch, and I've burned one of my few tutors before going for Crucible if I have a fetch or vice versa.
36 lands is where I landed in my head, so it's nice to see others there, as well. It's not necessarily accurate or relevant for me since I run so many X spells and a commander with an activated ability that costs mana, but what's your curve at? Currently, excluding lands, I'm sitting at 3.21. Obviously Chainer is mana-intensive as well, so I think it's best to lean towards too much mana rather than not enough. I'm sure you recognize the power of a mana sink in the command zone.
I think about my mana a bit differently because of the use of combos like token-producers with Phyrexian Altar. Last game I played with Chainer (it's a little while between games these days), I sat on a swamp and a C land for a few turns and got lucky with Abhorrent Overlord, Deathgreeter, and Phyrexian Altar. Even though I struggled a bit at first and missed a few drops, I ended the game with 6 lands that could have only produced 3BBB, and that seemed like a normal game to me. It does make it more vulnerable to somebody exiling the Altar and/or Pitiless Plunderer and cutting me off from that ability, but I'm okay with that.
Interesting. Your deck is uniquely suited towards insane mana production when you're looping, so I think it very well could be that our differing mana demands mean our mana bases should be somewhat different.
As for games being few and far between, I hear you. I've played more Magic in a week than I have in months since I moved to a proper city. It's glorious.
36 lands is where I landed in my head, so it's nice to see others there, as well. It's not necessarily accurate or relevant for me since I run so many X spells and a commander with an activated ability that costs mana, but what's your curve at? Currently, excluding lands, I'm sitting at 3.21. Obviously Chainer is mana-intensive as well, so I think it's best to lean towards too much mana rather than not enough. I'm sure you recognize the power of a mana sink in the command zone.
Average CMC of non-lands looks to be 3.66. The life cost tends to be the more limiting factor than mana. I have actually killed myself before because I miscalculated.
As for games being few and far between, I hear you. I've played more Magic in a week than I have in months since I moved to a proper city. It's glorious.
Dang, only 32 mana producing lands? That seems incredibly low. Do you find yourself consistently missing land drops in the early game? You do run the larger rocks that I don't, so maybe that mitigates missing the drops in the mid and late game a bit.
"Rocks"
How have the bigger rocks like Dynamo and Lotus been working for you? I mean, obviously at least pretty decently since you still run them, but I've never tried them in Erebos. Outside of specific decks like Daretti and Paradox Engine combo. I'm a little skeptical about running expensive ramp since when I have 4-5 mana available is when I'm ready to start dropping permanents that affect the game state. All that said, the deck is very mana hungry and having big boosters that don't rely on lands could be very good.
Yea, some games I get stuck for a turn or two without a land drop and it is less than optimal. I up the land count every few games and then end up flooding out and cut it back down That said, I realized I left out a few lands in my list : Blighted Fen, Reliquary Tower, Westvale Abbey; these are in the midst of being replaced with....something else. Not sure what will go in those slots yet but they've been the weakest utility lands for me, historically. 36 lands are probably still on the low side but I'd rather have screw than flood (this week, at least).
I like the larger rocks a lot because they fuel the most impactful cards in my build. I also rely a lot upon things like Extraplanar Lens as well to get over the hump and typically they're the primary tutor targets, everything else being equal.
On another note, Glacial Chasm is hilarious. Not only do some decks just automatically lose to it due to not being able to answer it, it interacts wonderfully with Pestilence/Withering Wisps.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Sure, I just try to not overload on sweepers if possible.
Glacial Chasm, Infernal Darkness, The Eldest Reborn, Phyrexian Scriptures etc are why I run a Hex Parasite (among other reasons); the ability to reset their counters for essentially no cost is excellent fun. Definitely a nonzero times that infinite Infernal Darkness has caused a table concession.
On the bright side, Scheming Symmetry looks bonkers. Not only does it have obvious political implications ("you find enchantment removal for me, I'll find a wrath for you"), with Erebos out in the late game it might as well be a Grim Tutor, which I only don't run due to financial reasons. I really like this card and fully expect it to perform admirably.
I've made some other cuts as well. Dark Depths never activated, and upon further reflection I realized that it was superfluous. Blanking enemy creature removal is one of the strong suits of the deck, and Marit Lage is a magnet for Swords to Plowshares and friends. I never drew Withering Wisps, but I'm sure it would perform only slightly worse than Pestilence. However, I'm cutting the Snow-Covered Swamps for simple basics and as a result Wisps is unplayable. Aesthetics matter.
As for what to put in, since I'm in a new meta that I suspect to be more competent in both play and deckbuilding, I'm retrying Shrouded Lore. I think I'll be able to pull some political shenanigans down here. Malicious Affliction is back in over Defile, and Star Compass is just another cheap mana rock to enable a turn 3 Erebos. With the 8 cheap rocks, I have approximately a 55% chance (if I did the math right) to see one by turn two, which means that about half the time I should be able to power him out a turn early.
- Dead of Winter
- Defile
- Dark Depths
- Withering Wisps
+ Scheming Symmetry
+ Shrouded Lore
+ Malicious Affliction
+ Star Compass
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
For posterity, here is my current mana configuration:
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Cabal Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Strip Mine
25 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Mind Stone
1 Sol Ring
1 Star Compass
1 Thought Vessel
If we consider Sol Ring to be on par with a land by itself and cut the weakest mana rock (Star Compass) for a land, the percentage comes to roughly 40%. That seems closer to being correct due to Erebos drawing all the cards and enabling those precious land drops. On the other hand, more rocks means a higher chance to land Erebos on turn 3 and as we all know, consistency is important. Maybe the difference is marginal but I'm really split on which way to take.
EDIT: Happy second birthday, thread!
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Mana-producing Lands:
"Rocks":
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Deserted Temple
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Marsh Flats
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Petrified Field
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Polluted Delta
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
19 Swamp
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Unstable Obelisk
Non-Land, Dependent (6)
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Sifter of Skulls
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Pitiless Plunderer
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
I think about my mana a bit differently because of the use of combos like token-producers with Phyrexian Altar. Last game I played with Chainer (it's a little while between games these days), I sat on a swamp and a C land for a few turns and got lucky with Abhorrent Overlord, Deathgreeter, and Phyrexian Altar. Even though I struggled a bit at first and missed a few drops, I ended the game with 6 lands that could have only produced 3BBB, and that seemed like a normal game to me. It does make it more vulnerable to somebody exiling the Altar and/or Pitiless Plunderer and cutting me off from that ability, but I'm okay with that.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
How have the bigger rocks like Dynamo and Lotus been working for you? I mean, obviously at least pretty decently since you still run them, but I've never tried them in Erebos. Outside of specific decks like Daretti and Paradox Engine combo. I'm a little skeptical about running expensive ramp since when I have 4-5 mana available is when I'm ready to start dropping permanents that affect the game state. All that said, the deck is very mana hungry and having big boosters that don't rely on lands could be very good.
36 lands is where I landed in my head, so it's nice to see others there, as well. It's not necessarily accurate or relevant for me since I run so many X spells and a commander with an activated ability that costs mana, but what's your curve at? Currently, excluding lands, I'm sitting at 3.21. Obviously Chainer is mana-intensive as well, so I think it's best to lean towards too much mana rather than not enough. I'm sure you recognize the power of a mana sink in the command zone.
Interesting. Your deck is uniquely suited towards insane mana production when you're looping, so I think it very well could be that our differing mana demands mean our mana bases should be somewhat different.
As for games being few and far between, I hear you. I've played more Magic in a week than I have in months since I moved to a proper city. It's glorious.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Very nice to hear, mate.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Yea, some games I get stuck for a turn or two without a land drop and it is less than optimal. I up the land count every few games and then end up flooding out and cut it back down
I like the larger rocks a lot because they fuel the most impactful cards in my build. I also rely a lot upon things like Extraplanar Lens as well to get over the hump and typically they're the primary tutor targets, everything else being equal.
Unfortunately it looks like the forum is going to be split so I'll look into maintaining a thread on Nexus as well when I'm not working all the time.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko