Love the Ur Dragon, so much potential! I think Treewave is onto something about your card draw. Draw is a commander's BFF. Maybe drop some of the non-dragon creatures and add Ambition's Cost, Ancient Craving, Harmonize. ect. ect.
I think one problem you will encounter is, that you have a lot of ramp and many fatties: you will empty your hand quickly and spew out dragons on the battlefield. It is likely, that then you draw a board wipe. And you are out of cards...
If I don't miss something you have Fact or Fiction, Rhystic Study and Sylvan Library as card draw. I think that this might not be enough to refill. I would aim for 8 - 10 card draw spells at least? The ones you have I like, maybe Wheel of Fortune and similar effects? Green draw based on creature power or damage might also be good.
I count at least 17 ramp cards, you could cut some of them for card draw.
Dragon choice I would have picked different ones but I think that is really an "individual" coice. However, I think Glorybringer is not so good in multiplayer...
To the card draw point, one thing that really helped me as I was building my Ur-Dragon list was to try to find cards that drew cards that were attached to other effects that I wanted; multi-purpose cards that would enable me to free up space in a 5-colour deck that has access to all the best cards in Magic and thus would, of course, be limited in space, especially when needing to support the density of ramp and dragons a dragon-tribal deck requires.
Temur Ascendancy is the perfect example of this, being a card that basically replaces all the dragons in my hand as I play them while also enabling the numerous on-attack or on-combat damage dragons that I'm running (I'm even going to try out the Elemental Bond that's included in the precon - early game cards that you can slap down alongside or in place of ramp before you start slamming dragons seem best for this style of deck). Lifecrafter's Bestiary is similar, offering the Thassa ability attached to a slightly costly draw engine, though the beauty of the card is that I'm essentially casting my dragons at full retail without the Ur-Dragon cost reduction, they all just have "draw a card" attached to them (plus its optional, so I can skip the first few dragons and start paying once I start losing steam). Selvala, Heart of the Wilds also seems like it will be quite strong, as I should reliably get the most draws out of it playing a ramp-heavy dragon deck while also pretty much instantly catapulting me to Ur-Dragon mana if I want it. Turn 3 Selvala + Turn 4 Dragonlord Kolaghan = Turn 5 Ur-Dragon, attack for 16, draw 2 cards, plop a permanent into play (plus I get a card draw from Selvala).
I'm also running more potentially "dangerous" dragons compared to you (Hellkite Tyrant, Balefire Dragon) that can be disastrous if stolen or Threatened, so I made sure to include a couple of sac outlets, which also draw me cards. Greater Good is a staple in any green deck running large fatties and 5-colour dragons is no exception. Survival of the Fittest's awkward cousin Evolutionary Leap is really good in decks that only play a couple of large, threatening creatures at a time (and thus only need to hold up one or two mana to "protect" them with a sac activation) and whose deck is dense with powerful creatures and few weak, situational ones, and dragons fit that bill. I cut most of the mana dorks and small creatures from my deck so sacrificing a dragon will almost always put another dragon into my hand. It also enables me to play around with Selvala's Stampede, which is exceptionally powerful with many of the dragon tribal cards.
Also, just thought I'd point out you mentioned Crucible of Worlds in your synergies section but it isn't in your list.
Distant Melody could be a good hand refill. Only good in tribal builds, but when it works it works well.
Distant Melody is a great card for decks that go wide, I don't think I'll have more then 3-4 dragons on the battlefield at the same time so I'd rather play a more consistent draw spell. It's also a dead draw after a board clear - which is my main concern.
I built my own version of the Ur-Dragon and the card draw choices I included were Stroke of Genius, Greater Good, Kindred Discovery, Temur Ascendancy and Knollspine Dragon. Let's not forget that most of the time when you cast The Ur-Dragon you'll have 2-4 dragons on the board already so you'll be drawing quite a lot with your commander. I've thought about including Reliquary Tower or Thought Vesselto my list already after playing about 10 games or so.
Both Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage are quite situational - Dragon Mage require dealing combat damage which might not be trivial after board wipe (esp. haste-less), and Knollspine Dragon is even more difficult to use after a board wipe (although I think it is a better card in the average case).
Runehorn Hellkite is a pretty cool card, and I will consider him after I start playtesting.
In general, I dislike 1 shot draws in this deck - Fact or Fiction and Ancient Craving are on the chopping block as they don't provide value for the long run (this deck is not going to win fast), another issue I find with it is that I can't "cheat" them into play with my commander, but I'm still not sure how significant that is.
About Skullclamp - because of it's cheap mana cost and its colorlessness (not a word), it seems like a great card to test in this kind of deck. Sure, its not at its best but it might be worth its slot.
Birthing Pod - Not meant for whole chains, basically sacrificing a 6 CMC (remember I can cast it for 5) and reanimating it with Bladewing the Risen is completely nuts and can be easily done in this kind of deck.
I don't want to make any changes until I get to play this deck (precon lands at 30/8) but any of you got to play the The Ur-Dragon and have significant results I'd love to hear about it.
Hi everyone! a few of updates:
+Explosive Vegetation -Garruk Wildspeaker
Double green mana is, while not difficult in the average case - can be prohibitive in a color screw. Also protecting a planeswalker in commander is quite difficult and he doesn't make me less vulnerable to mass land destruction.
+Balefire Dragon -Territorial Hellkite
I kind of misread the card, attacking people at random can be problematic (its really powerful in 1v1 though). Balefire can selectively wrath people(we have Krenko and Hatebears.dec in the meta).
I really like the idea of testing Elemental Bond, I think I will test
+Elemental Bond -Rakdos Signet
as early game black is less important then green, which makes it the weakest signet.
Cheers!
Edit:
2 more minor insights to consider:
Greater Good is a massive staple in this deck, combined with mass reanimation its a great win con. Highly valued tutor target (Makes me consider a few more tutors).
Skullclamp is too situational for this deck, stuff are bounced ,exiled, and tucked all around me so its a bit underwhelming, I want to raise permananet count for The Ur-Dragon and craving was pretty underwhelming, a change I also consider is:
In order to really work, Temur Ascendancy needs your manabase to be near perfect. I'm not sure you want to be fetching temur lands while you have a ton of black and white dragons that will get stuck in your hand. (Kokusho, Kolaghan, Teneb, etc.)
Speaking of costs, why did you inlcude Niv Mizzet? He might be a big problem to play, and he usually doesn't do anything right away.
Personally I'm not sure if Sylvan Safekeeper is good enough here... I know he keeps your stuff safe, but saccing lands can cause problems when you need every colored mana you can get. I might consider the Karmic Justice dragon instead, or maybe Thunderbreak Regent. Seems like it can net some amazing value here. Pernicious Deed is also a good permanent card to get rid of cheap threats while your expensive dragons stay alive. Oblivion Stone just blows everything up.
In order to really work, Temur Ascendancy needs your manabase to be near perfect. I'm not sure you want to be fetching temur lands while you have a ton of black and white dragons that will get stuck in your hand. (Kokusho, Kolaghan, Teneb, etc.)
Speaking of costs, why did you inlcude Niv Mizzet? He might be a big problem to play, and he usually doesn't do anything right away.
Personally I'm not sure if Sylvan Safekeeper is good enough here... I know he keeps your stuff safe, but saccing lands can cause problems when you need every colored mana you can get. I might consider the Karmic Justice dragon instead, or maybe Thunderbreak Regent. Seems like it can net some amazing value here. Pernicious Deed is also a good permanent card to get rid of cheap threats while your expensive dragons stay alive. Oblivion Stone just blows everything up.
Ascendency is very color restrictive, but remeber the first 2 colors I should search for are RG anyway, so temur is easier then say WW.
In fact, WUBRG is pretty easy to reach, the problem lies with double and triple color costs, I might even replace some signets with nore versatile 3-drop rocks.
Niv-mizzet is a very late-game inclusion and is supposed to act as hand fill and mana sink, I am not particulary happy with him (due to restrictive cost).
Thunderbreak Regent is nice but 3 damage is a very low cost to pay for killing a dragon, he is undercosted, but ultimately a pretty weak threat.
Scalelord Reckoner is much better on paper, but I dislike WW cost (which ia also why Sunscorch Regent is not here).
O-Stone and deed are the opposite of what I need - if I can cheat something in, it should help me with winning (not to recover from a losing position)
Even if you only pay the CU twice, three cycles of draw from Mystic Remora is massive if in the early rounds.
Mystic Remora is an amazing, I keep forgetting how powerful it is.
So far I only had a chance to play one game with the deck and I am pretty happy with how it worked, enough mass removal to deal alone with Krenko, Mob Boss and was threatening enough for the mana screwed Ephara, God of the Polis to keep flinging its spot removal at my dragons, won via Greater Good and Living Death into Scourge of Valkas and 12 other dragons, resulting in 169 damage.
I plan on testing it more, and adding Unclaimed Territory as soon as I get my claws on a copy, Pillar of Origins is probably too weak. I have plenty of cards I'd like to test but cuts become more and more difficult - currently looking at Lightning Greaves and Deathrite Shaman. Crucible of Worlds and Greater Good provided me with quite a bit of value, maybe a bit more graveyard synergy would be helpful.
Actually the only reason I removed your dragons is because I had to discard to hand size anyway.
Suggestions for fat stuff to include:
From the Kamigawa cycle, Keiga and Ryusei are very nicely splashable, with Keiga stealing a priority target like Krenko or Kaalia, and Ryusei seems like it might be an asymmetrical board wipe in your deck.
Stormbreath dragon seems fantastic with dodging white removal and burning control decks with its monstrous ability.
If you're looking for ETB synergy, I think archwing dragon is a better pick than kolaghan.
Hellkite overlord is rather strictly costed but a really strong creature, the cost reduction helps bring it down.
Honestly I think that the way to go with artifact removal is to just play hellkite tyrant. That card is hilarious. Either it's removed or it wins you games. "Fair" options are hoard-smelter dragon and the horrendous but funny furnace dragon.
Also, hoarding dragon might be a good pod tutor, or rather a good tutor with pod.
I'm very partial about mystic remora, and I think that it's more of a meta call. In uber fast combo metas where everyone is tutoring and countering and playing moxes this card is a monster, but I've found that in my meta the card really doesn't net value, and that the cumulative upkeep really sucks.
Actually the only reason I removed your dragons is because I had to discard to hand size anyway.
Suggestions for fat stuff to include:
From the Kamigawa cycle, Keiga and Ryusei are very nicely splashable, with Keiga stealing a priority target like Krenko or Kaalia, and Ryusei seems like it might be an asymmetrical board wipe in your deck.
Keiga, the Tide Star is decent, however Ryusei, the Falling Star is awful, even as a asymmetrical board clear - its situational (imagine its trigger against a kaalia) and uncontrollable (rquires a sac outlet, someone can just exile it or kill it when they need a board clear.
Stormbreath dragon seems fantastic with dodging white removal and burning control decks with its monstrous ability.
If you're looking for ETB synergy, I think archwing dragon is a better pick than kolaghan.
Hellkite overlord is rather strictly costed but a really strong creature, the cost reduction helps bring it down.
I considered Stormbreath Dragon and Hellkite Overlord but they suffer form similar problem - they are only beaters, overlord is plain expansive, Stormbreath is quite impressive after discount but 7 to activate is pretty tough to pay for a bit of damage. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury cost one more to dash then Archwing Dragon but its way more powerful - with one dragon on board it deals 4 more damage, and it has another "mode", Archwing cannot compete with such versatility.
Honestly I think that the way to go with artifact removal is to just play hellkite tyrant. That card is hilarious. Either it's removed or it wins you games. "Fair" options are hoard-smelter dragon and the horrendous but funny furnace dragon.
Also, hoarding dragon might be a good pod tutor, or rather a good tutor with pod.
Hellkite Tyrant is a risky card. It's a very strong threat but if copied/reanimated it can backfire quite easily, is it worth the risk?
I don't feel like I need more artifact removal, nor that I lack tutors, in any case I would play Enlightened Tutor long before Hoarding Dragon, if I tutor Birthing Pod and someone bounce it then pod is forever lost, so sad.
I'm very partial about mystic remora, and I think that it's more of a meta call. In uber fast combo metas where everyone is tutoring and countering and playing moxes this card is a monster, but I've found that in my meta the card really doesn't net value, and that the cumulative upkeep really sucks.
You play my meta, so about 80% of the decks spend thier first 3-4 turns ramping, imagine starting the game with Rhystic Study - Mystic Remora is even better as draws are harder to prevent (No, I am not sure why people in the meta think not paying for rhystic is legitimate if you don't plan on destroying it).
I feel like Sarkhan Unbroken fills Niv Mizzet's role very reliably, especially with all the bombs you're dropping that can defend him. He also seems easier to cast.
I feel like Sarkhan Unbroken fills Niv Mizzet's role very reliably, especially with all the bombs you're dropping that can defend him. He also seems easier to cast.
I don't think he compares favorably with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, both are sitting at 5 CMC (for this deck's purpose)
Pros:
He is easier to cast.
He is rather versatile, ramps and draws or acts as a slow Broodmate Dragon, ult is very difficult to reach but usually means instant or near instant win.
He survives board wipes.
Cons:
Can be attacked.
Slower draw than Niv, which means slower post-wrath recovery (which is the whole point of drawing lots of cards).
Cannot act as removal (extremely relevant vs Krenko/Ephara/Mana Dorks).
it's not a simple trade off, but I think late-game Niv will be more relevant, Sarkhan Unbroken remains on my maybe list until I get to play more.
Anyway, its not the top part of the curve that bothers me, the exact nature of late-game threats is secondary, I believe the deck's mana base and ramp could be more efficient and better tuned.
Orchard is great in a multiplayer setting, territory is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rainbow lands but its good enough for a semi-budget mana base
My group runs a lot of artifact hate, getting my dragons earlier is important and greaves act as a lightning rod way too much, I'd rather them targeting someone else's Birthing Pod (mine is only used late-game anyway...)
Crucible was meant to be used as an ultra-late grinding mechanism with Haven of the Spirit Dragon and for card advantage with fetchlands, the problem - its too slow and really doesn't fit in, it also does nothing on its own (although if I had a dredge theme it would work pretty well). Hoard accelerates well enough and might draw a couple of cards over the course of a usual match - much better in the average case.
Bond is ok draw, temur is slightly worse (it doesn't draw on Wasitora tokens and Dragonlord Silumgar) but in return it grants all our creatures haste, while not a powerful card I'd still like to test it. Its very hard to cast though.
Swords was meant as a "Catch all" answer to creatures but is ultimately a 1-for-1 in a multiplayer format, meanwhile Spit Flame is repeatable removal to small-medium creatures and can be used to kill Krenko repeatedly.
Shaman was underwhelming, I don't run the full fetch suite so its not a reliable ramp card and the other abilites can sometimes mess up a Mimeoplasm or any number of spell-recurring cards, meanwhile Sarkhan does a lot of things for us - he can discard that all mighty Dragonlord Kolaghan for that Living Death turn. An Exciting card!
Kindred Discovery is a powerful card in this kind of deck, but ultimately its cost killed it - UU is too difficult. For that reason alone I am looking to cut Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Lathliss does everything this deck wants - strong with mass reanimation, a viable attacker on its own and acts as a "Mass firebreathing" enabler, a true staple.
Abrupt Decay was meant to be an answer to the all-powerful t1 Sol Ring but in multiplayer that doesn't seem as powerful as I initially thought, Vindicate deals with a lot of cards we would normally have difficulty dealing with, but is not great as its a sorcery 1-for-1 which is ultimately weak in multiplayer. The reason behind these cuts is philosophical - I'd like to be the aggressor on the table and not the control deck, the plan for this deck is still "Turn Dragons Sideways" and I hope its reflected in the list.
I think the M19 Elder dragons could be given some thought. Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner is a solid body. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager is a 3 cost 4/4 flier in your deck that starts off as a 3 for 1 in multiplayer, with terrifying late game potential. Though, it is expensive to acquire right now. Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire is a card that has been consistently impressive on its own, especially in multiplayer. It's almost like it casts Chaos Warp on each player and you choose the targets - and that's good since you're already building your deck to have a ton of permanents. It can let you transmute your tokens, utility creatures or extra lands into threats, and synergizes with reanimation and Boneyard Scourge since the creatures die and don't get shuffled.
I think Vaevictis Asmadi is much more interesting than Niv Mizzet for an easier cost. Keep in mind that it also gives you cards, just at a slower rate, and that it removes a ton of stuff as well.
Nicol bolas might be unattainable at the moment, but I think he could replace Verix Bladewing quite well.
I think the M19 Elder dragons could be given some thought. Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner is a solid body. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager is a 3 cost 4/4 flier in your deck that starts off as a 3 for 1 in multiplayer, with terrifying late game potential. Though, it is expensive to acquire right now. Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire is a card that has been consistently impressive on its own, especially in multiplayer. It's almost like it casts Chaos Warp on each player and you choose the targets - and that's good since you're already building your deck to have a ton of permanents. It can let you transmute your tokens, utility creatures or extra lands into threats, and synergizes with reanimation and Boneyard Scourge since the creatures die and don't get shuffled.
I think Vaevictis Asmadi is much more interesting than Niv Mizzet for an easier cost. Keep in mind that it also gives you cards, just at a slower rate, and that it removes a ton of stuff as well.
Nicol bolas might be unattainable at the moment, but I think he could replace Verix Bladewing quite well.
Bolas was an oversight on my part, he should definitely go in once he rotates out.
I dislike dragons that are pure body, Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner doesn't do much for the deck, she is likely to survive and attack but she provides no value afterwards, I try not to include dumb beaters.
Verix is a defensible inclusion - he makes a decent Broodmate Dragon impression and can be played for 3.
I can't bring myself to include Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, he is way too risky for my tastes. Although I run a lot of permanents, I run a few "Disposable" ones and would not like to lose a 4/4 dragon token or even Boneyard Scourge for a chance at dragon (currently less then 3/10 chance) or other permanent (which is likely to be artifact ramp), Chaos Warp is mostly played in red decks which has no access to enchantment removal or big creature removal and is a very risky card (not a bad one though).
I will probably switch out Niv for Nic once he becomes available though.
tappedout link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/19-09-17-pIt-the-ur-dragon/?cb=1541328761
1x The Ur-Dragon
Land (38)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Exotic Orchard
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forbidden Orchard
4x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1x High Market
1x Marsh Flats
1x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Path of Ancestry
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
3x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Unclaimed Territory
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Watery Grave
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Dragon Tempest
1x Greater Good
1x Rhystic Study
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
1x Temur Ascendancy
Creature (29)
1x Atarka, World Render
1x Balefire Dragon
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Bladewing the Risen
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Boneyard Scourge
1x Broodmate Dragon
1x Deathbringer Regent
1x Dragonlord Atarka
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Dragonlord Kolaghan
1x Dragonlord Ojutai
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Glorybringer
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1x Lathliss, Dragon Queen
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Savage Ventmaw
1x Scourge of Valkas
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Teneb, the Harvester
1x Trinket Mage
1x Utvara Hellkite
1x Verix Bladewing
1x Wasitora, Nekoru Queen
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Spit Flame
1x Vampiric Tutor
Artifact (10)
1x Birthing Pod
1x Coalition Relic
1x Dragon's Hoard
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Golgari Signet
1x Gruul Signet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Sol Ring
Sorcery (11)
1x Crux of Fate
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Explosive Vegetation
1x Farseek
1x Living Death
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nature's Lore
1x Patriarch's Bidding
1x Regrowth
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Toxic Deluge
Planewalker (1)
1x Sarkhan, Fireblood
Some of the noteable synergies:
Cheers!
To his point Knollspine dragon Dragon Mage Runehorn Hellkite are good choices of draw on a tribal stick
Temur Ascendancy is the perfect example of this, being a card that basically replaces all the dragons in my hand as I play them while also enabling the numerous on-attack or on-combat damage dragons that I'm running (I'm even going to try out the Elemental Bond that's included in the precon - early game cards that you can slap down alongside or in place of ramp before you start slamming dragons seem best for this style of deck). Lifecrafter's Bestiary is similar, offering the Thassa ability attached to a slightly costly draw engine, though the beauty of the card is that I'm essentially casting my dragons at full retail without the Ur-Dragon cost reduction, they all just have "draw a card" attached to them (plus its optional, so I can skip the first few dragons and start paying once I start losing steam). Selvala, Heart of the Wilds also seems like it will be quite strong, as I should reliably get the most draws out of it playing a ramp-heavy dragon deck while also pretty much instantly catapulting me to Ur-Dragon mana if I want it. Turn 3 Selvala + Turn 4 Dragonlord Kolaghan = Turn 5 Ur-Dragon, attack for 16, draw 2 cards, plop a permanent into play (plus I get a card draw from Selvala).
I'm also running more potentially "dangerous" dragons compared to you (Hellkite Tyrant, Balefire Dragon) that can be disastrous if stolen or Threatened, so I made sure to include a couple of sac outlets, which also draw me cards. Greater Good is a staple in any green deck running large fatties and 5-colour dragons is no exception. Survival of the Fittest's awkward cousin Evolutionary Leap is really good in decks that only play a couple of large, threatening creatures at a time (and thus only need to hold up one or two mana to "protect" them with a sac activation) and whose deck is dense with powerful creatures and few weak, situational ones, and dragons fit that bill. I cut most of the mana dorks and small creatures from my deck so sacrificing a dragon will almost always put another dragon into my hand. It also enables me to play around with Selvala's Stampede, which is exceptionally powerful with many of the dragon tribal cards.
Also, just thought I'd point out you mentioned Crucible of Worlds in your synergies section but it isn't in your list.
-1 Forest +1 High Market
The deck doesn't really want its dragons exiled/stolen/whatnot so I feel high market is a decent inclusion.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top +1 Skullclamp
I don't own a full set of fetches, skullclamp a very good card and can help with wrath insurance
-1 Prismatic Lens +1 Crucible of Worlds
I mistakenly forgot to add crucible, now fixed.
-1 Explosive Vegetation +1 Ancient Craving
More draw to help with wraths.
-1 Swords to Plowshares +1 Anguished Unmaking
A broader removal option, a bit more difficult cost but in commander its less of a concern in commander.
-1 Taurean Mauler +1 Trinket Mage
Mauler was a meme inclusion anyway
and I discovered I had a 98 card deck so...
+1 Greater Good
Current maybeboard -
Balefire Dragon
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds (looks REALLY good)
Evolutionary Leap
Recurring Insight
I have yet to play the deck unfortunely, but as soon I have live results I'll update.
Distant Melody is a great card for decks that go wide, I don't think I'll have more then 3-4 dragons on the battlefield at the same time so I'd rather play a more consistent draw spell. It's also a dead draw after a board clear - which is my main concern.
Both Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage are quite situational - Dragon Mage require dealing combat damage which might not be trivial after board wipe (esp. haste-less), and Knollspine Dragon is even more difficult to use after a board wipe (although I think it is a better card in the average case).
Runehorn Hellkite is a pretty cool card, and I will consider him after I start playtesting.
In general, I dislike 1 shot draws in this deck - Fact or Fiction and Ancient Craving are on the chopping block as they don't provide value for the long run (this deck is not going to win fast), another issue I find with it is that I can't "cheat" them into play with my commander, but I'm still not sure how significant that is.
Elemental Bond and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds style cards might be the way to go, I still doubt Temur Ascendancy can be consistently cast in my imperfect mana base, but I really like its "Bonus" (haste is powerful).
About Skullclamp - because of it's cheap mana cost and its colorlessness (not a word), it seems like a great card to test in this kind of deck. Sure, its not at its best but it might be worth its slot.
Birthing Pod - Not meant for whole chains, basically sacrificing a 6 CMC (remember I can cast it for 5) and reanimating it with Bladewing the Risen is completely nuts and can be easily done in this kind of deck.
Another change I am considering is - Garruk Wildspeaker + Explosive Vegetation, what do you think?
I don't want to make any changes until I get to play this deck (precon lands at 30/8) but any of you got to play the The Ur-Dragon and have significant results I'd love to hear about it.
Cheers!
+Explosive Vegetation -Garruk Wildspeaker
Double green mana is, while not difficult in the average case - can be prohibitive in a color screw. Also protecting a planeswalker in commander is quite difficult and he doesn't make me less vulnerable to mass land destruction.
+Path of Ancestry -Savage Lands
A straight upgrade, friends don't let friends play sub-optimal cards.
+Balefire Dragon -Territorial Hellkite
I kind of misread the card, attacking people at random can be problematic (its really powerful in 1v1 though). Balefire can selectively wrath people(we have Krenko and Hatebears.dec in the meta).
I really like the idea of testing Elemental Bond, I think I will test
+Elemental Bond -Rakdos Signet
as early game black is less important then green, which makes it the weakest signet.
Cheers!
Edit:
2 more minor insights to consider:
Greater Good is a massive staple in this deck, combined with mass reanimation its a great win con. Highly valued tutor target (Makes me consider a few more tutors).
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury dash is also reduced by The Ur-Dragon, making it synergistic with ETB effects.
- Ancient Craving - Skullclamp
+ Kindred Discovery + Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Skullclamp is too situational for this deck, stuff are bounced ,exiled, and tucked all around me so its a bit underwhelming, I want to raise permananet count for The Ur-Dragon and craving was pretty underwhelming, a change I also consider is:
- Fact or Fiction + Temur Ascendancy
I also changed:
- Chaos Warp + Swords to Plowshares
as we have eldrazi deck in the meta (polymorphing his stuff seems irresponsible)
- Wood Elves + Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
I want to see how he fares, elves are pretty bad in this deck anyway.
Cheers!
Speaking of costs, why did you inlcude Niv Mizzet? He might be a big problem to play, and he usually doesn't do anything right away.
Personally I'm not sure if Sylvan Safekeeper is good enough here... I know he keeps your stuff safe, but saccing lands can cause problems when you need every colored mana you can get. I might consider the Karmic Justice dragon instead, or maybe Thunderbreak Regent. Seems like it can net some amazing value here.
Pernicious Deed is also a good permanent card to get rid of cheap threats while your expensive dragons stay alive. Oblivion Stone just blows everything up.
EDIT: Also, both Atarka, World Render and Dromoka, the Eternal are amazing.
Ascendency is very color restrictive, but remeber the first 2 colors I should search for are RG anyway, so temur is easier then say WW.
In fact, WUBRG is pretty easy to reach, the problem lies with double and triple color costs, I might even replace some signets with nore versatile 3-drop rocks.
Niv-mizzet is a very late-game inclusion and is supposed to act as hand fill and mana sink, I am not particulary happy with him (due to restrictive cost).
Thunderbreak Regent is nice but 3 damage is a very low cost to pay for killing a dragon, he is undercosted, but ultimately a pretty weak threat.
Scalelord Reckoner is much better on paper, but I dislike WW cost (which ia also why Sunscorch Regent is not here).
O-Stone and deed are the opposite of what I need - if I can cheat something in, it should help me with winning (not to recover from a losing position)
- Dreadbore
- Sylvan Safekeeper
- Fact or Fiction
+ Regrowth
+ Vindicate
+ Deathrite Shaman
I will later edit this comment to explain the changes.
Boneyard Scourge or Eternal Dragon + Birthing Pod or Survival of the Fittest (budget option is Evolutionary Leap)
How has your deck been running?
Mystic Remora is an amazing, I keep forgetting how powerful it is.
So far I only had a chance to play one game with the deck and I am pretty happy with how it worked, enough mass removal to deal alone with Krenko, Mob Boss and was threatening enough for the mana screwed Ephara, God of the Polis to keep flinging its spot removal at my dragons, won via Greater Good and Living Death into Scourge of Valkas and 12 other dragons, resulting in 169 damage.
I plan on testing it more, and adding Unclaimed Territory as soon as I get my claws on a copy, Pillar of Origins is probably too weak. I have plenty of cards I'd like to test but cuts become more and more difficult - currently looking at Lightning Greaves and Deathrite Shaman.
Crucible of Worlds and Greater Good provided me with quite a bit of value, maybe a bit more graveyard synergy would be helpful.
Cheers!
Suggestions for fat stuff to include:
From the Kamigawa cycle, Keiga and Ryusei are very nicely splashable, with Keiga stealing a priority target like Krenko or Kaalia, and Ryusei seems like it might be an asymmetrical board wipe in your deck.
Stormbreath dragon seems fantastic with dodging white removal and burning control decks with its monstrous ability.
If you're looking for ETB synergy, I think archwing dragon is a better pick than kolaghan.
Hellkite overlord is rather strictly costed but a really strong creature, the cost reduction helps bring it down.
Honestly I think that the way to go with artifact removal is to just play hellkite tyrant. That card is hilarious. Either it's removed or it wins you games. "Fair" options are hoard-smelter dragon and the horrendous but funny furnace dragon.
Also, hoarding dragon might be a good pod tutor, or rather a good tutor with pod.
I'm very partial about mystic remora, and I think that it's more of a meta call. In uber fast combo metas where everyone is tutoring and countering and playing moxes this card is a monster, but I've found that in my meta the card really doesn't net value, and that the cumulative upkeep really sucks.
Keiga, the Tide Star is decent, however Ryusei, the Falling Star is awful, even as a asymmetrical board clear - its situational (imagine its trigger against a kaalia) and uncontrollable (rquires a sac outlet, someone can just exile it or kill it when they need a board clear.
I considered Stormbreath Dragon and Hellkite Overlord but they suffer form similar problem - they are only beaters, overlord is plain expansive, Stormbreath is quite impressive after discount but 7 to activate is pretty tough to pay for a bit of damage. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury cost one more to dash then Archwing Dragon but its way more powerful - with one dragon on board it deals 4 more damage, and it has another "mode", Archwing cannot compete with such versatility.
Hellkite Tyrant is a risky card. It's a very strong threat but if copied/reanimated it can backfire quite easily, is it worth the risk?
I don't feel like I need more artifact removal, nor that I lack tutors, in any case I would play Enlightened Tutor long before Hoarding Dragon, if I tutor Birthing Pod and someone bounce it then pod is forever lost, so sad.
You play my meta, so about 80% of the decks spend thier first 3-4 turns ramping, imagine starting the game with Rhystic Study - Mystic Remora is even better as draws are harder to prevent (No, I am not sure why people in the meta think not paying for rhystic is legitimate if you don't plan on destroying it).
I don't think he compares favorably with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, both are sitting at 5 CMC (for this deck's purpose)
Pros:
He is easier to cast.
He is rather versatile, ramps and draws or acts as a slow Broodmate Dragon, ult is very difficult to reach but usually means instant or near instant win.
He survives board wipes.
Cons:
Can be attacked.
Slower draw than Niv, which means slower post-wrath recovery (which is the whole point of drawing lots of cards).
Cannot act as removal (extremely relevant vs Krenko/Ephara/Mana Dorks).
it's not a simple trade off, but I think late-game Niv will be more relevant, Sarkhan Unbroken remains on my maybe list until I get to play more.
Anyway, its not the top part of the curve that bothers me, the exact nature of late-game threats is secondary, I believe the deck's mana base and ramp could be more efficient and better tuned.
+Forbidden Orchard +Unclaimed Territory
Orchard is great in a multiplayer setting, territory is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rainbow lands but its good enough for a semi-budget mana base
- Lightning Greaves
+ Rakdos Signet
My group runs a lot of artifact hate, getting my dragons earlier is important and greaves act as a lightning rod way too much, I'd rather them targeting someone else's Birthing Pod (mine is only used late-game anyway...)
- Crucible of Worlds
+ Dragon's Hoard
Crucible was meant to be used as an ultra-late grinding mechanism with Haven of the Spirit Dragon and for card advantage with fetchlands, the problem - its too slow and really doesn't fit in, it also does nothing on its own (although if I had a dredge theme it would work pretty well). Hoard accelerates well enough and might draw a couple of cards over the course of a usual match - much better in the average case.
- Elemental Bond
+ Temur Ascendancy
Bond is ok draw, temur is slightly worse (it doesn't draw on Wasitora tokens and Dragonlord Silumgar) but in return it grants all our creatures haste, while not a powerful card I'd still like to test it. Its very hard to cast though.
- Swords To Plowshares
+ Spit Flame
Swords was meant as a "Catch all" answer to creatures but is ultimately a 1-for-1 in a multiplayer format, meanwhile Spit Flame is repeatable removal to small-medium creatures and can be used to kill Krenko repeatedly.
- Deathrite Shaman
+ Sarkhan, Fireblood
Shaman was underwhelming, I don't run the full fetch suite so its not a reliable ramp card and the other abilites can sometimes mess up a Mimeoplasm or any number of spell-recurring cards, meanwhile Sarkhan does a lot of things for us - he can discard that all mighty Dragonlord Kolaghan for that Living Death turn. An Exciting card!
- Kindred Discovery
+ Lathliss, Dragon Queen
Kindred Discovery is a powerful card in this kind of deck, but ultimately its cost killed it - UU is too difficult. For that reason alone I am looking to cut Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Lathliss does everything this deck wants - strong with mass reanimation, a viable attacker on its own and acts as a "Mass firebreathing" enabler, a true staple.
- Abrupt Decay
- Vindicate
+ Atarka, World Render
+ Verix Bladewing
Abrupt Decay was meant to be an answer to the all-powerful t1 Sol Ring but in multiplayer that doesn't seem as powerful as I initially thought, Vindicate deals with a lot of cards we would normally have difficulty dealing with, but is not great as its a sorcery 1-for-1 which is ultimately weak in multiplayer. The reason behind these cuts is philosophical - I'd like to be the aggressor on the table and not the control deck, the plan for this deck is still "Turn Dragons Sideways" and I hope its reflected in the list.
Any and all advice will be appreciated, cheers!
Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner is a solid body.
Nicol Bolas, the Ravager is a 3 cost 4/4 flier in your deck that starts off as a 3 for 1 in multiplayer, with terrifying late game potential. Though, it is expensive to acquire right now.
Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire is a card that has been consistently impressive on its own, especially in multiplayer. It's almost like it casts Chaos Warp on each player and you choose the targets - and that's good since you're already building your deck to have a ton of permanents. It can let you transmute your tokens, utility creatures or extra lands into threats, and synergizes with reanimation and Boneyard Scourge since the creatures die and don't get shuffled.
I think Vaevictis Asmadi is much more interesting than Niv Mizzet for an easier cost. Keep in mind that it also gives you cards, just at a slower rate, and that it removes a ton of stuff as well.
Nicol bolas might be unattainable at the moment, but I think he could replace Verix Bladewing quite well.
Bolas was an oversight on my part, he should definitely go in once he rotates out.
I dislike dragons that are pure body, Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner doesn't do much for the deck, she is likely to survive and attack but she provides no value afterwards, I try not to include dumb beaters.
Verix is a defensible inclusion - he makes a decent Broodmate Dragon impression and can be played for 3.
I can't bring myself to include Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, he is way too risky for my tastes. Although I run a lot of permanents, I run a few "Disposable" ones and would not like to lose a 4/4 dragon token or even Boneyard Scourge for a chance at dragon (currently less then 3/10 chance) or other permanent (which is likely to be artifact ramp), Chaos Warp is mostly played in red decks which has no access to enchantment removal or big creature removal and is a very risky card (not a bad one though).
I will probably switch out Niv for Nic once he becomes available though.