Yeah Cordial Vampire seems pretty good, as do Universal Automaton and Changeling Outcast. I'll be adding all three.
Winds of Abandon seems pretty damn awful. If you don't win that turn, you're so so far behind and if you do need a final alpha strike, 6 mana is way too much for that effect. Fire Covenant is way better. Cosmotronic Wave and Master Warcraft are also better...
Tithe Drinker is currently in my list but Blood Seeker isn't. There aren't a lot of token decks running around. Tithe Drinker is probaly going to get replaced with a 1 drop soon. The lifelink is nice for Necropotence/Bolas Citadel/Minion Murmurs/Fire Covenant/Champion of Dusk. (Wow, I'm playing a lot of effects that cost life), but the extort I rarely want to use. Pitiless Pontiff has been disappointing. Sac outlets/ give indestructible that cost mana just don't work well enough. Adanto Vanguard has been way better for me. Olivia's Bloodsworn is also on the possible cut list, to be replaced with a 1 drop.
Bloodtracker has done some decent work for me. The main difference is that you know that you will always get back your investment.
Possibility Storm and Mass Hysteria have been pretty good for me. Double tokens and not being able to cast boardwipes predictabally is really good for this deck. And overall agression at the table is also very good for you.
Springleaf Drum has been very good, especially given my budget landbase. Paradise Mantle is worse, but pretty decent. Curse of Opulence is also one to consider for more budget versions of this deck
I've recently gotten quite a few kills with Elenda, the Dusk Rose It's always on my doubt list, but with a sac outlet and a drainer it's a great way to finish the table when the board has stabilized. Twillight Prophet always catches spot removal to the face, but it does fly and draw you a card (the drain is neglible with our average CMC). Falkenrath Aristocrat is always good for me, the haste + evasion + self protection just makes it really hard to deal with. Whip of Erebos I really should cut, but the life gain is so nice.... I'll probaly replace it with revival//revenge, which is a card I want to try.
Overall I''m pretty happy where I'm at these days. As long as I target the Cyclonic Rift player first, this deck is pretty resilient and does a lot of damage. In a recent 5 man game I just systematically started elimating people and probaly dealt 150 of the 160 damage dealt in the game.
So for those who run mirror entity, you might consider running Jazal Goldmane as well. In a typical situation Jazal will hit much harder and for less total mana invested.
He is bad for all the same reasons as mirror entity (and can be worse for sure), but in an uninteractive meta, I think its a strong card.
Hello everyone! I'm quite new here and I'm very eager to hear your opinion about a specific build of Edgar Markov - I'm trying to build low cost, Ad Nauseam aristocrats deck with Goblin Bombardment, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Cruel Celebrant type of effects as a win-con, while Aggro would still be a plan B. Do you have any ideas for such a deck? I think that it requiers many 1 CMC vamps with 2+ cost effects that generate me many bodies like Martyr of Dusk or mana (Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak) to go off. My biggest question is "How many sac outlets would be enough?"
In addition to that I'm using 2 infinite combos Oathsworn Vampire + Phyrexian Altar for infinite Death/ETB triggers and Bloodchief Ascension + Mindcrank for mill/damage loop. The former might be flavor win for me, while the latter is a plan C if games go for too long.
So for those who run mirror entity, you might consider running Jazal Goldmane as well. In a typical situation Jazal will hit much harder and for less total mana invested.
He is bad for all the same reasons as mirror entity (and can be worse for sure), but in an uninteractive meta, I think its a strong card.
Darn, guess all our other off-tribe creatures are unrunnable too then. No but you're right, not being a vampire can certainly matter. Still, if I play one of these two creatures and they survived until my next turn, I would prefer it be Jazal in most cases.
Darn, guess all our other off-tribe creatures are unrunnable too then. No but you're right, not being a vampire can certainly matter. Still, if I play one of these two creatures and they survived until my next turn, I would prefer it be Jazal in most cases.
Time to crank out the sarcasm.
The other major difference is that if you have say, 6-7 mana, you can cast mirror entity, turn everybody into 3/3s or 4/4s and win that turn. Jazal requires untapping. If you happen to have a haste enabler Jazal requires 9 mana still, but you have one fewer attacker because entity triggered.
And yet another minor difference is you can use Mirror Entity to sac your board (activate for 0) if you need to defend against an exiling or tucking sweeper for some reason.
The other kinda minor quirk to Jazal is that people can kill him after you've done things in your main phase if they desire and you can't respond because it only works on attackers).
Darn, guess all our other off-tribe creatures are unrunnable too then. No but you're right, not being a vampire can certainly matter. Still, if I play one of these two creatures and they survived until my next turn, I would prefer it be Jazal in most cases.
Time to crank out the sarcasm.
The other major difference is that if you have say, 6-7 mana, you can cast mirror entity, turn everybody into 3/3s or 4/4s and win that turn. Jazal requires untapping. If you happen to have a haste enabler Jazal requires 9 mana still, but you have one fewer attacker because entity triggered.
And yet another minor difference is you can use Mirror Entity to sac your board (activate for 0) if you need to defend against an exiling or tucking sweeper for some reason.
The other kinda minor quirk to Jazal is that people can kill him after you've done things in your main phase if they desire and you can't respond because it only works on attackers).
Jazal is not good.
Sorry the sarcasm wasn't intended to be malicious. My point was less about comparing Jazal to mirror entity, but more that if you play in an uninteractive meta that lets you get away with mirror entity, you might as well add Jazal as one more wincon. Like I said entity can be better, but its generally when you have at least 7 mana available and have nothing better to do with the other 4 after casting entity. Or if you had a nykthos, shrine to nyx out. Could you imagine?
Sorry the sarcasm wasn't intended to be malicious. My point was less about comparing Jazal to mirror entity, but more that if you play in an uninteractive meta that lets you get away with mirror entity, you might as well add Jazal as one more wincon. Like I said entity can be better, but its generally when you have at least 7 mana available and have nothing better to do with the other 4 after casting entity. Or if you had a nykthos, shrine to nyx out. Could you imagine?
Let's unpack this
* In an uninteractive meta, Jazal is actually better. Mirror entity's ability is much more interactive because it can be used immediately after it drops.
* mirror entity is a vampire that costs 3 that's also a wincon. jazal is a cat that costs 4 that is also a wincon.
* Mirror entity can be cast for 3 and then pass the turn, and if someone removes it they remove it - you still got a vampire. Then you untap and kill everyone with your pile of mana. *or* it can be cast for 3 and then activated.
* You can choose how much mana to invest. Making all your 1s into 2s might be enough to be worth doing. Jazal requires a hefty 5 mana investment to be used at all, and only rewards you for having lots of attackers
* Mirror entity, furthermore, can defend your team against damage based sweepers and random ping effects in a pinch
Generally speaking I think entity is probably overcosted for this approach to edgar. Stuff like Shared Animosity is probably much better. Doesn't require a continued mana investment and works after the creature dies and continues to work well with just a few creatures.
But there really is no comparing Jazal to Mirror entity. And surely running both is not good.
Let's unpack this
* In an uninteractive meta, Jazal is actually better. Mirror entity's ability is much more interactive because it can be used immediately after it drops.
* mirror entity is a vampire that costs 3 that's also a wincon. jazal is a cat that costs 4 that is also a wincon.
* Mirror entity can be cast for 3 and then pass the turn, and if someone removes it they remove it - you still got a vampire. Then you untap and kill everyone with your pile of mana. *or* it can be cast for 3 and then activated.
* You can choose how much mana to invest. Making all your 1s into 2s might be enough to be worth doing. Jazal requires a hefty 5 mana investment to be used at all, and only rewards you for having lots of attackers
* Mirror entity, furthermore, can defend your team against damage based sweepers and random ping effects in a pinch
Generally speaking I think entity is probably overcosted for this approach to edgar. Stuff like Shared Animosity is probably much better. Doesn't require a continued mana investment and works after the creature dies and continues to work well with just a few creatures.
But there really is no comparing Jazal to Mirror entity. And surely running both is not good.
You have convinced me that mirror entity is better. Thinking about it now, even if you only have 5 mana available, you are likely to activate entity the turn he comes out and plus you get a token, so you get value out of him no matter what. Honestly Jazal is risky even in an uninteractive meta because he does actual nothing if he is removed. If I'm willing to play risky cards there are better options, like perhaps coat of arms.
But you have to admit neither Jazal or Entity are good if you don't expect to untap with them.
Yep I would not argue for either personally. I think you mostly want to play vampires and ones that cost <=2cmc in this deck, and slots for stuff that cost more are few and far between. Especially really mana hungry things like entity and jazal.
The 2 mana lord is a huge upgrade over entity fundamentally (which is already in the deck ofc).
Looks like you guys already concluded that Mirror Entity is better than Jazal Goldmane so I won’t go into detail about this. However I do think entity is worth a slot and might even be one of our better three drops. Of course it can't compare to Shared Animosity but we can only run one of these. Mirror entity by itself is probably the next best 3 drop damage wise.
In general I agree that cards that require a whole turn in play are bad. But in this case it’d argue it's useful to our game plan. I think Entity is good because it's the only 3 drop vampire that can turn a small board into a significant force. This forces your opponent to have an answer. I'm perfectly happy playing two one drops and an entity and seeing what happens. If I get to untap I can probably swing for a good amount of damage and if I don't I only lost three cards. My point here is that we are facing board wipes very often and Entity helps to not over extent into them.
In your discussion I did miss the point that entity can also active Cruel Celebrant and co (if I’m correct). This is something that can come up once in a while.
Yeah Cordial Vampire seems pretty good, as do Universal Automaton and Changeling Outcast. I'll be adding all three.
Winds of Abandon seems pretty damn awful. If you don't win that turn, you're so so far behind and if you do need a final alpha strike, 6 mana is way too much for that effect. Fire Covenant is way better. Cosmotronic Wave and Master Warcraft are also better...
Hello everyone! I'm quite new here and I'm very eager to hear your opinion about a specific build of Edgar Markov - I'm trying to build low cost, Ad Nauseam aristocrats deck with Goblin Bombardment, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Cruel Celebrant type of effects as a win-con, while Agro would still be a plan B. Do you have any ideas for such a deck? I think that it requires many 1 CMC vamps with 2+ cost effects that generate me many bodies like Martyr of Dusk or mana (Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak) to go off. My biggest question is "How many sac outlets would be enough?"
I think aristocrats vampires can work for sure, but I'd opt for a slightly more controlling version including at least Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and the white one (forgot the name). Generally with this style of deck you always want a sac outlet in play and people know (or learn) this and will try to target your sac outlets. Based on experience with another aristocrats style deck i'd say 7-9 sac outlets would be needed to consistently have one available. This does depend on the amount of tutors you will run. As there almost no sac outlets that fit well with an agro strategy I’d opt not to play as many one drops. Having 7-9 'dead' cards does mean your other cards need to be more impactful and I'm not sure if one drops can pull this off. But I haven't built an aristocrats Edgar deck yet so if you end up building one I’d love to hear how it goes
In general I agree that cards that require a whole turn in play are bad. But in this case it’d argue it's useful to our game plan. I think Entity is good because it's the only 3 drop vampire that can turn a small board into a significant force. This forces your opponent to have an answer. I'm perfectly happy playing two one drops and an entity and seeing what happens. If I get to untap I can probably swing for a good amount of damage and if I don't I only lost three cards. My point here is that we are facing board wipes very often and Entity helps to not over extent into them.
That's true but you should also consider that the smaller your board is, the less significant the force you have, and you're still paying a great deal of mana for it. Another consideration is that even if he sticks for a couple turns, if he gets spot removed you will be behind on board compared to the players you weren't attacking, since you spent multiple turns dumping mana into entity. Also, entity might force your opponent to play a wrath when you could have dealt with the wrath had it come down later. Finally, if you don't skimp on tutors, you probably won't need him as a wincon.
That said he is a wincon and a vampire, so its not wrong to run him if you decide he is worth it. He was good enough to almost be universally run in the competitive 1v1 duel edh edgar decklists. The question you should really be asking to decide whether to run him is "Can i get away with it?"
Hello everyone! I'm quite new here and I'm very eager to hear your opinion about a specific build of Edgar Markov - I'm trying to build low cost, Ad Nauseam aristocrats deck with Goblin Bombardment, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Cruel Celebrant type of effects as a win-con, while Agro would still be a plan B. Do you have any ideas for such a deck? I think that it requires many 1 CMC vamps with 2+ cost effects that generate me many bodies like Martyr of Dusk or mana (Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak) to go off. My biggest question is "How many sac outlets would be enough?"
I think aristocrats vampires can work for sure, but I'd opt for a slightly more controlling version including at least Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and the white one (forgot the name). Generally with this style of deck you always want a sac outlet in play and people know (or learn) this and will try to target your sac outlets. Based on experience with another aristocrats style deck i'd say 7-9 sac outlets would be needed to consistently have one available. This does depend on the amount of tutors you will run. As there almost no sac outlets that fit well with an agro strategy I’d opt not to play as many one drops. Having 7-9 'dead' cards does mean your other cards need to be more impactful and I'm not sure if one drops can pull this off. But I haven't built an aristocrats Edgar deck yet so if you end up building one I’d love to hear how it goes
Ow and +1 for adding ritual and culling the weak!
Thanks for responce, my current decklist looks like this: https://archidekt.com/decks/94738. Lately, I'm trying to squeeze in some cards from maybeboard like Bolas's Citadel and testing low-cost ramp in form of Spingleaf Drum might speed up the deck even more.
Also I've no idea what to cut to get more sac outlets like Yahenni, Undying Partisan or if Phyrexian Reclamation and sticking to 4 permanent sac outlets (2 of which are creatures) might be enough.
Hello everyone! I'm quite new here and I'm very eager to hear your opinion about a specific build of Edgar Markov - I'm trying to build low cost, Ad Nauseam aristocrats deck with Goblin Bombardment, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Cruel Celebrant type of effects as a win-con, while Agro would still be a plan B. Do you have any ideas for such a deck? I think that it requires many 1 CMC vamps with 2+ cost effects that generate me many bodies like Martyr of Dusk or mana (Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak) to go off. My biggest question is "How many sac outlets would be enough?"
I think aristocrats vampires can work for sure, but I'd opt for a slightly more controlling version including at least Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and the white one (forgot the name). Generally with this style of deck you always want a sac outlet in play and people know (or learn) this and will try to target your sac outlets. Based on experience with another aristocrats style deck i'd say 7-9 sac outlets would be needed to consistently have one available. This does depend on the amount of tutors you will run. As there almost no sac outlets that fit well with an agro strategy I’d opt not to play as many one drops. Having 7-9 'dead' cards does mean your other cards need to be more impactful and I'm not sure if one drops can pull this off. But I haven't built an aristocrats Edgar deck yet so if you end up building one I’d love to hear how it goes
Ow and +1 for adding ritual and culling the weak!
Thanks for responce, my current decklist looks like this: https://archidekt.com/decks/94738. Lately, I'm trying to squeeze in some cards from maybeboard like Bolas's Citadel and testing low-cost ramp in form of Spingleaf Drum might speed up the deck even more.
Also I've no idea what to cut to get more sac outlets like Yahenni, Undying Partisan or if Phyrexian Reclamation and sticking to 4 permanent sac outlets (2 of which are creatures) might be enough.
You absolutely need more sac outlets in a deck that needs one.
Between lands and other outlets, I typically run 8-11 in my decks that need them (Marchesa, Teysa, Meren), and even that doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Your decklist looks like a hybrid aggro/aristocrats deck, leaning much more on the aggro side, which just seems like a watered-down version of this deck. I've been thinking about building an Edgar aristocrats deck, but if you're going that direction more heavily, you should dump most of the creatures that are only bodies. Vampires as a tribe are set up well for the strategy, since they have several sac outlet creatures that are pretty decent.
You absolutely need more sac outlets in a deck that needs one.
Between lands and other outlets, I typically run 8-11 in my decks that need them (Marchesa, Teysa, Meren), and even that doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Your decklist looks like a hybrid aggro/aristocrats deck, leaning much more on the aggro side, which just seems like a watered-down version of this deck. I've been thinking about building an Edgar aristocrats deck, but if you're going that direction more heavily, you should dump most of the creatures that are only bodies. Vampires as a tribe are set up well for the strategy, since they have several sac outlet creatures that are pretty decent.
Thanks for feedback, basically this deck won't be as powerful as ISBPathfinder's since I don't own some of the more expensive cards. Also I run so many 1-drops to get many 1/1s on the battlefield and overrun opponents ASAP. Additional Aristocrats subtheme is main win-con but also a way to push some more damage through to close out games or finish off some unreachable enemies (pillowfort, stax, etc.).
What sac outlets that are Vampires would you also recommend here and what might be cut to make room for them?
Yeah and there's also Vampire of the Dire Moon - another B 1/1.
With these two (and probably few more to come) I'm recently thinking about cutting Stromkirk Noble to get as close to mono-black as possible - do you guys think it's a good idea to take our decks in this direction? My point is, we already want BBB for Necropotence, which takes impact on mana base so why not go all-in with it?
Yeah and there's also Vampire of the Dire Moon - another B 1/1.
With these two (and probably few more to come) I'm recently thinking about cutting Stromkirk Noble to get as close to mono-black as possible - do you guys think it's a good idea to take our decks in this direction? My point is, we already want BBB for Necropotence, which takes impact on mana base so why not go all-in with it?
I think we want to run all the vampire 1 drops, including the 2 changelings; they’re so good with Edgar. I think that the vast majority of our lands should produce black mana, but we can still have red and white:
The issue is not that one drops aren't good. It's that even an optimized edgar manabase can't reliably manage R or W on turn 1. Stromkirk noble is a good one drop and so is worth the risk of casting issues for now in my opinion. Before that some 2 drops need to go. For the current list, it would be better to cut tithe drinker, blood seeker, probably stromkirk condemned, and possibly even bloodghast or bloodthrone vampire. Opinions will vary and depend on the decklist but those are my picks for the weakest vampires that most players still run.
Side note, is it absolutely wrong to cut purphoros, god of the forge? (hear me out). He's the best thing imaginable when he works but if we don't draw him at the perfect time under the perfect circumstances he is awkward, slow, and unimpactful. For example, what if we have little or no vampires left to cast when we draw him? What if the game state demands immediate action and he's too slow? What if we are mana-hosed? It can also be awkward to draw multiple noncreatures or high-cmc cards. He is also terrible if countered or removed since we spend the first few turns doing nothing so we have vampires to cast after. Also I've always felt he was lacking if playing fewer than three opponents. Opinions?
Yeah and there's also Vampire of the Dire Moon - another B 1/1.
With these two (and probably few more to come) I'm recently thinking about cutting Stromkirk Noble to get as close to mono-black as possible - do you guys think it's a good idea to take our decks in this direction? My point is, we already want BBB for Necropotence, which takes impact on mana base so why not go all-in with it?
I think we want to run all the vampire 1 drops, including the 2 changelings; they’re so good with Edgar. I think that the vast majority of our lands should produce black mana, but we can still have red and white:
Except Fastlands and Temples these are good calls. I'm not completely sold on the Tainted cycle but it might be good starting point for budget mana base. Also I'd suggest Arid Mesa using Swamp duals and since we prioritize B, then Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacombs could be primary fetches to get - 5 + newest basic fetch might be good enough without breaking a bank too much.
The issue is not that one drops aren't good. It's that even an optimized edgar manabase can't reliably manage R or W on turn 1. Stromkirk noble is a good one drop and so is worth the risk of casting issues for now in my opinion. Before that some 2 drops need to go. For the current list, it would be better to cut tithe drinker, blood seeker, probably stromkirk condemned, and possibly even bloodghast or bloodthrone vampire. Opinions will vary and depend on the decklist but those are my picks for the weakest vampires that most players still run.
Side note, is it absolutely wrong to cut purphoros, god of the forge? (hear me out). He's the best thing imaginable when he works but if we don't draw him at the perfect time under the perfect circumstances he is awkward, slow, and unimpactful. For example, what if we have little or no vampires left to cast when we draw him? What if the game state demands immediate action and he's too slow? What if we are mana-hosed? It can also be awkward to draw multiple noncreatures or high-cmc cards. He is also terrible if countered or removed since we spend the first few turns doing nothing so we have vampires to cast after. Also I've always felt he was lacking if playing fewer than three opponents. Opinions?
You're completely right, I use 1 CMC vamps for bodies and since we produce so many then a little aristocrats strategy finds home here. Changelings I agree are amazing and I'm currently thinking about adding the colorless one. W vampires seem to be a little better since they have or gain flying and evasion is a key.
About 2 drops: Blood Seeker is good casual card and meta call for creature-oriented environments - besides that if your meta is more about control and players use few creatures then sure it gets cut (but I'd still consider one as Sideboard, just in case), Bloodghast is just pure value since it can come back a few times throughout the game just because you play lands so you that's just incidental value. Bloodthrone Vampire I'm strongly against cutting since it's FREE sac outlet which comes with 1/1 token on it's own. Sure Viscera Seer is 1 CMC but we need more effects like this to machine gun opponents in a pinch (or when game's about to end anyway). The rest sure is sub-optimal but recently we've got replacements for these like Cordial Vampire.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - you're NOT wrong, I'm recently thinking about it just like you. That's because Impact Tremors exists - half the cost, half the effect, much lower $$$ price and less damage from Ad Nauseam. The only downside here is that Tremors can be destroyed, while Purphoros can only be exiled or bounced, which is very specific. I just wish there would be vampire like this with maybe BR casting cost.
You're completely right, I use 1 CMC vamps for bodies and since we produce so many then a little aristocrats strategy finds home here. Changelings I agree are amazing and I'm currently thinking about adding the colorless one. W vampires seem to be a little better since they have or gain flying and evasion is a key.
About 2 drops: Blood Seeker is good casual card and meta call for creature-oriented environments - besides that if your meta is more about control and players use few creatures then sure it gets cut (but I'd still consider one as Sideboard, just in case), Bloodghast is just pure value since it can come back a few times throughout the game just because you play lands so you that's just incidental value. Bloodthrone Vampire I'm strongly against cutting since it's FREE sac outlet which comes with 1/1 token on it's own. Sure Viscera Seer is 1 CMC but we need more effects like this to machine gun opponents in a pinch (or when game's about to end anyway). The rest sure is sub-optimal but recently we've got replacements for these like Cordial Vampire.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - you're NOT wrong, I'm recently thinking about it just like you. That's because Impact Tremors exists - half the cost, half the effect, much lower $$$ price and less damage from Ad Nauseam. The only downside here is that Tremors can be destroyed, while Purphoros can only be exiled or bounced, which is very specific. I just wish there would be vampire like this with maybe BR casting cost.
EDIT: changed my opinion about bloodthrone vampire not being as good as a one-drop. She has too much value to ignore for one more mana. I’d say bloodghast isn’t worth the extra mana if you’re deck isn’t equipped to destroy/discard him consistently, but even then he’s bearly worse. Vampire interloper and Olivia’s Bloodsworn are not worth it though. Flying is good but not 1 extra mana good. If we can’t attack then these dudes getting in there for 2 doesn’t do much to help the situation.
I kinda don't like impact tremors either since both it and purph are somewhat unreliable. Plus tremors doing half the damage means gruesome fate or throne of the god-pharaoh (both questionable cards) would likely hit just as hard or harder without needing to come down early and stick.
Speaking of lands, has everyone here automatically added silent clearing and sunbaked canyon? I'm finding it hard to quantify the value of the cantrip ability myself.
EDIT: I have done some research and it really should’ve been obvious to me that these lands are incredible. If you already run the ABUR duals they are better than shocks. If you can run sacred foundry you can run sunbaked canyon (unless you can’t afford plateau and then sacred foundry becomes much more important for its fetchability).
I’m going to add silent clearing but not sunbaked canyon. Arid Mesa and Sacred Foundry are the only Boros lands I run, since black mana is so important to the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Bloodghast synergizes with a few cards which turn him into a vampire bitterblossom. But if we don't draw those cards I think he is usually worse than a 2 drop with flying or better stats. Bloodthrone vampire effectively has the stats of tarmogoyf if we sacrifice the vampires that get blocked, and if we don't get blocked who cares? She can also blow up our vampires with summoning sickness if we need to squeeze in more damage, and she synergizes with aristocrat effects. Still unless we draw an aristocrat effect I would rather have a 1 drop or a 2 drop with evasion.
I kinda don't like impact tremors either since both it and purph are somewhat unreliable. Plus tremors doing half the damage means gruesome fate or throne of the god-pharaoh (both questionable cards) would likely hit just as hard or harder without needing to come down early and stick.
Speaking of lands, has everyone here automatically added silent clearing and sunbaked canyon? I'm finding it hard to quantify the value of the cantrip ability myself.
Gruesome fate might be good at estabilished boards (I just wish it was instant speed), however I think that Impact Tremors dealing 3+ damage to each opponent is worth it. Just lower your expectations and consider it a pure burn effect, just like Vicious Conquistador, which during the course of the game might use his ability also like 2-3 times at most?
I’m going to add silent clearing but not sunbaked canyon. Arid Mesa and Sacred Foundry are the only Boros lands I run, since black mana is so important to the deck.
Tiny minor quibble but I would not count arid mesa as a boros land since it can fetch black.
ISB, what do think about all the changlings? There's a few new ones that have come out. Would they be worth running or are we looking for cheap with good effects?
Winds of Abandon seems pretty damn awful. If you don't win that turn, you're so so far behind and if you do need a final alpha strike, 6 mana is way too much for that effect. Fire Covenant is way better. Cosmotronic Wave and Master Warcraft are also better...
Tithe Drinker is currently in my list but Blood Seeker isn't. There aren't a lot of token decks running around. Tithe Drinker is probaly going to get replaced with a 1 drop soon. The lifelink is nice for Necropotence/Bolas Citadel/Minion Murmurs/Fire Covenant/Champion of Dusk. (Wow, I'm playing a lot of effects that cost life), but the extort I rarely want to use. Pitiless Pontiff has been disappointing. Sac outlets/ give indestructible that cost mana just don't work well enough. Adanto Vanguard has been way better for me. Olivia's Bloodsworn is also on the possible cut list, to be replaced with a 1 drop.
Bloodtracker has done some decent work for me. The main difference is that you know that you will always get back your investment.
Possibility Storm and Mass Hysteria have been pretty good for me. Double tokens and not being able to cast boardwipes predictabally is really good for this deck. And overall agression at the table is also very good for you.
Springleaf Drum has been very good, especially given my budget landbase. Paradise Mantle is worse, but pretty decent. Curse of Opulence is also one to consider for more budget versions of this deck
I've recently gotten quite a few kills with Elenda, the Dusk Rose It's always on my doubt list, but with a sac outlet and a drainer it's a great way to finish the table when the board has stabilized. Twillight Prophet always catches spot removal to the face, but it does fly and draw you a card (the drain is neglible with our average CMC). Falkenrath Aristocrat is always good for me, the haste + evasion + self protection just makes it really hard to deal with. Whip of Erebos I really should cut, but the life gain is so nice.... I'll probaly replace it with revival//revenge, which is a card I want to try.
Shared Animosity, Obelisk of Urd and Vampire Nocturnus are all pretty good for me.
Do any of you play Leonin Warleader?
Overall I''m pretty happy where I'm at these days. As long as I target the Cyclonic Rift player first, this deck is pretty resilient and does a lot of damage. In a recent 5 man game I just systematically started elimating people and probaly dealt 150 of the 160 damage dealt in the game.
He is bad for all the same reasons as mirror entity (and can be worse for sure), but in an uninteractive meta, I think its a strong card.
In addition to that I'm using 2 infinite combos Oathsworn Vampire + Phyrexian Altar for infinite Death/ETB triggers and Bloodchief Ascension + Mindcrank for mill/damage loop. The former might be flavor win for me, while the latter is a plan C if games go for too long.
From newest set I'll probably add Changeling Outcast and Cordial Vampire for creatures (think about cutting Tithe Drinker) and Talisman of Hierarchy for a little more ramp but I'd love to also hear your opinions about these cards.
mirror entity is a vampire.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Time to crank out the sarcasm.
The other major difference is that if you have say, 6-7 mana, you can cast mirror entity, turn everybody into 3/3s or 4/4s and win that turn. Jazal requires untapping. If you happen to have a haste enabler Jazal requires 9 mana still, but you have one fewer attacker because entity triggered.
And yet another minor difference is you can use Mirror Entity to sac your board (activate for 0) if you need to defend against an exiling or tucking sweeper for some reason.
The other kinda minor quirk to Jazal is that people can kill him after you've done things in your main phase if they desire and you can't respond because it only works on attackers).
Jazal is not good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Sorry the sarcasm wasn't intended to be malicious. My point was less about comparing Jazal to mirror entity, but more that if you play in an uninteractive meta that lets you get away with mirror entity, you might as well add Jazal as one more wincon. Like I said entity can be better, but its generally when you have at least 7 mana available and have nothing better to do with the other 4 after casting entity. Or if you had a nykthos, shrine to nyx out. Could you imagine?
Let's unpack this
* In an uninteractive meta, Jazal is actually better. Mirror entity's ability is much more interactive because it can be used immediately after it drops.
* mirror entity is a vampire that costs 3 that's also a wincon. jazal is a cat that costs 4 that is also a wincon.
* Mirror entity can be cast for 3 and then pass the turn, and if someone removes it they remove it - you still got a vampire. Then you untap and kill everyone with your pile of mana. *or* it can be cast for 3 and then activated.
* You can choose how much mana to invest. Making all your 1s into 2s might be enough to be worth doing. Jazal requires a hefty 5 mana investment to be used at all, and only rewards you for having lots of attackers
* Mirror entity, furthermore, can defend your team against damage based sweepers and random ping effects in a pinch
Generally speaking I think entity is probably overcosted for this approach to edgar. Stuff like Shared Animosity is probably much better. Doesn't require a continued mana investment and works after the creature dies and continues to work well with just a few creatures.
But there really is no comparing Jazal to Mirror entity. And surely running both is not good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
You have convinced me that mirror entity is better. Thinking about it now, even if you only have 5 mana available, you are likely to activate entity the turn he comes out and plus you get a token, so you get value out of him no matter what. Honestly Jazal is risky even in an uninteractive meta because he does actual nothing if he is removed. If I'm willing to play risky cards there are better options, like perhaps coat of arms.
But you have to admit neither Jazal or Entity are good if you don't expect to untap with them.
The 2 mana lord is a huge upgrade over entity fundamentally (which is already in the deck ofc).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
In general I agree that cards that require a whole turn in play are bad. But in this case it’d argue it's useful to our game plan. I think Entity is good because it's the only 3 drop vampire that can turn a small board into a significant force. This forces your opponent to have an answer. I'm perfectly happy playing two one drops and an entity and seeing what happens. If I get to untap I can probably swing for a good amount of damage and if I don't I only lost three cards. My point here is that we are facing board wipes very often and Entity helps to not over extent into them.
In your discussion I did miss the point that entity can also active Cruel Celebrant and co (if I’m correct). This is something that can come up once in a while.
Cordial Vampire, Universal Automaton and Changeling Outcast are defiantly in yes.
As for Winds of Abandon everyone is probably right and it's not any good. But combining path to exile with cyclonic rift into one card does mean I just have to try it out.
I think aristocrats vampires can work for sure, but I'd opt for a slightly more controlling version including at least Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and the white one (forgot the name). Generally with this style of deck you always want a sac outlet in play and people know (or learn) this and will try to target your sac outlets. Based on experience with another aristocrats style deck i'd say 7-9 sac outlets would be needed to consistently have one available. This does depend on the amount of tutors you will run. As there almost no sac outlets that fit well with an agro strategy I’d opt not to play as many one drops. Having 7-9 'dead' cards does mean your other cards need to be more impactful and I'm not sure if one drops can pull this off. But I haven't built an aristocrats Edgar deck yet so if you end up building one I’d love to hear how it goes
Ow and +1 for adding ritual and culling the weak!
That's true but you should also consider that the smaller your board is, the less significant the force you have, and you're still paying a great deal of mana for it. Another consideration is that even if he sticks for a couple turns, if he gets spot removed you will be behind on board compared to the players you weren't attacking, since you spent multiple turns dumping mana into entity. Also, entity might force your opponent to play a wrath when you could have dealt with the wrath had it come down later. Finally, if you don't skimp on tutors, you probably won't need him as a wincon.
That said he is a wincon and a vampire, so its not wrong to run him if you decide he is worth it. He was good enough to almost be universally run in the competitive 1v1 duel edh edgar decklists. The question you should really be asking to decide whether to run him is "Can i get away with it?"
Thanks for responce, my current decklist looks like this: https://archidekt.com/decks/94738 . Lately, I'm trying to squeeze in some cards from maybeboard like Bolas's Citadel and testing low-cost ramp in form of Spingleaf Drum might speed up the deck even more.
Also I've no idea what to cut to get more sac outlets like Yahenni, Undying Partisan or if Phyrexian Reclamation and sticking to 4 permanent sac outlets (2 of which are creatures) might be enough.
You absolutely need more sac outlets in a deck that needs one.
Between lands and other outlets, I typically run 8-11 in my decks that need them (Marchesa, Teysa, Meren), and even that doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Your decklist looks like a hybrid aggro/aristocrats deck, leaning much more on the aggro side, which just seems like a watered-down version of this deck. I've been thinking about building an Edgar aristocrats deck, but if you're going that direction more heavily, you should dump most of the creatures that are only bodies. Vampires as a tribe are set up well for the strategy, since they have several sac outlet creatures that are pretty decent.
Thanks for feedback, basically this deck won't be as powerful as ISBPathfinder's since I don't own some of the more expensive cards. Also I run so many 1-drops to get many 1/1s on the battlefield and overrun opponents ASAP. Additional Aristocrats subtheme is main win-con but also a way to push some more damage through to close out games or finish off some unreachable enemies (pillowfort, stax, etc.).
What sac outlets that are Vampires would you also recommend here and what might be cut to make room for them?
Yeah and there's also Vampire of the Dire Moon - another B 1/1.
With these two (and probably few more to come) I'm recently thinking about cutting Stromkirk Noble to get as close to mono-black as possible - do you guys think it's a good idea to take our decks in this direction? My point is, we already want BBB for Necropotence, which takes impact on mana base so why not go all-in with it?
I think we want to run all the vampire 1 drops, including the 2 changelings; they’re so good with Edgar. I think that the vast majority of our lands should produce black mana, but we can still have red and white:
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Side note, is it absolutely wrong to cut purphoros, god of the forge? (hear me out). He's the best thing imaginable when he works but if we don't draw him at the perfect time under the perfect circumstances he is awkward, slow, and unimpactful. For example, what if we have little or no vampires left to cast when we draw him? What if the game state demands immediate action and he's too slow? What if we are mana-hosed? It can also be awkward to draw multiple noncreatures or high-cmc cards. He is also terrible if countered or removed since we spend the first few turns doing nothing so we have vampires to cast after. Also I've always felt he was lacking if playing fewer than three opponents. Opinions?
Except Fastlands and Temples these are good calls. I'm not completely sold on the Tainted cycle but it might be good starting point for budget mana base. Also I'd suggest Arid Mesa using Swamp duals and since we prioritize B, then Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacombs could be primary fetches to get - 5 + newest basic fetch might be good enough without breaking a bank too much.
You're completely right, I use 1 CMC vamps for bodies and since we produce so many then a little aristocrats strategy finds home here. Changelings I agree are amazing and I'm currently thinking about adding the colorless one. W vampires seem to be a little better since they have or gain flying and evasion is a key.
About 2 drops: Blood Seeker is good casual card and meta call for creature-oriented environments - besides that if your meta is more about control and players use few creatures then sure it gets cut (but I'd still consider one as Sideboard, just in case), Bloodghast is just pure value since it can come back a few times throughout the game just because you play lands so you that's just incidental value. Bloodthrone Vampire I'm strongly against cutting since it's FREE sac outlet which comes with 1/1 token on it's own. Sure Viscera Seer is 1 CMC but we need more effects like this to machine gun opponents in a pinch (or when game's about to end anyway). The rest sure is sub-optimal but recently we've got replacements for these like Cordial Vampire.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - you're NOT wrong, I'm recently thinking about it just like you. That's because Impact Tremors exists - half the cost, half the effect, much lower $$$ price and less damage from Ad Nauseam. The only downside here is that Tremors can be destroyed, while Purphoros can only be exiled or bounced, which is very specific. I just wish there would be vampire like this with maybe BR casting cost.
EDIT: changed my opinion about bloodthrone vampire not being as good as a one-drop. She has too much value to ignore for one more mana. I’d say bloodghast isn’t worth the extra mana if you’re deck isn’t equipped to destroy/discard him consistently, but even then he’s bearly worse. Vampire interloper and Olivia’s Bloodsworn are not worth it though. Flying is good but not 1 extra mana good. If we can’t attack then these dudes getting in there for 2 doesn’t do much to help the situation.
I kinda don't like impact tremors either since both it and purph are somewhat unreliable. Plus tremors doing half the damage means gruesome fate or throne of the god-pharaoh (both questionable cards) would likely hit just as hard or harder without needing to come down early and stick.
Speaking of lands, has everyone here automatically added silent clearing and sunbaked canyon? I'm finding it hard to quantify the value of the cantrip ability myself.
EDIT: I have done some research and it really should’ve been obvious to me that these lands are incredible. If you already run the ABUR duals they are better than shocks. If you can run sacred foundry you can run sunbaked canyon (unless you can’t afford plateau and then sacred foundry becomes much more important for its fetchability).
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Gruesome fate might be good at estabilished boards (I just wish it was instant speed), however I think that Impact Tremors dealing 3+ damage to each opponent is worth it. Just lower your expectations and consider it a pure burn effect, just like Vicious Conquistador, which during the course of the game might use his ability also like 2-3 times at most?
I've added only silent clearing, which is just another copy of Caves of Koilos for me. sunbaked canyon didn't make the cut because it's not B source.
Tiny minor quibble but I would not count arid mesa as a boros land since it can fetch black.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
GVorinclex, Voice of HungerG
WUBMerieke Ri BeritWUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' VoiceGWUB