I started out with a Gisela deck and decided later to also build a deck for Bruna. My Gisela build is a voltron lifegain based deck where as this is a human / angel value rez based defensive build. Given that the commander has a big back end with flying + vigilance I use it as a strong part of my defenses.
The concept here is that my commander has a strong value rez to it which gives a big board presence when she lands which makes for a strong play post wrath or if being pressured. Otherwise I try to poke at my opponents while playing a value game. Said value game can kind of suck vs UG value decks or combo but.... this is mono white non combo so ultimately I feel like this works fairly well when you want a fun game of mono white control.
I still haven't built this deck yet but its high on my list of ones I want to build. I really enjoy Gisela and I think the flavor of having both would be really cool.
DECK CHANGES:
Haazda Shield Mate -> Salvage Scout I got to thinking about Haazda Shield Mate and while I think he is a cool creature, I have a lot of defenses in this deck and if I get to the point where I can cast Bruna I just don't see many times I would want to prioritize the shield mate. This comes a little bit into what my commander brings to the table as well as how frequently I would see myself wanting to spend a Bruna rez on the shield mate. I think I have a lot of great artifacts in this list and I could see myself using a rez to bring back Salvage Scout after someone blows everything up.
Djeru, With Eyes Open -> The Immortal Sun (look at spoilers as its not linking yet) - Djeru is also a little lackluster. I tried convincing myself that some sort of planeswalker package made him worthwhile but he also falls off in what kind of value he gives me every time he might come back. I still want to try out a few walkers here because of how defensive Bruna can be but I think I would be happier with some card draw. If I get this list together soon I will just put in Staff of Nin until this comes out but I wanted to make this change to the card I am actually interested in playing. I might proxy it up once we get the art for it. I like The Immortal Sun from the standpoint that it gives me non combat reliant draw, the +1/+1 in this case allows my commander to kill titans, and its cheaper than my commander with cost reduction which might make me able to do multiple things when I go to cast her.
Recruiter of the Guard -> Open the Armory - I kept looking at Recruiter and feeling my options were not sufficient. I guess if I always want access to Serra Ascendant its fine I am just not that interested in doing something like that. I feel I am running enough equipment that a versatile tutor seems nice here.
Comeuppance -> Survival Cache I have a couple of wraths already in this list and while I do enjoy Comeuppance, I wanted to push a little more on my draw.
So, I have hopes to get this list up and going soon. I have been very pleasantly surprised in what Gisela has been able to do and I think that having both of them as commanders is really kind of cool flavor. Eventually I would like to work Emrakul, the Promised End into this list as well (mostly for flavor reasons) but I think its also possible to maybe run Kozilek, the Great Distortion as well as just sort of a high end threat with card draw attached.
I have a couple of questions. I prepurchased the From the Vault: Transform and I plan on building either Gisela or Bruna. The point of running either as commander is not necessarily to consitently meld them (although doing so every so often would be a plus). However, I do want to build one in the hopes of building a monoW EDH (which to me is the hardest type of deck to build in commander).
Which of the two do you consider a good commander to start with? What do you recommend?
Are both strategies starkly different? Can I swap a minimum amount of cards to alternate them as commander?
You run each half in each other deck. How consistently can you meld them?
Any high and low points for each of them?
I'm leaning a bit towards Gisela since she's cheaper to cast (so maybe she's easier to build). And I've seen your list for a while and it seems solid. But then you go and also build around Bruna, lol. So now you made it even harder for me to choose!
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I have a couple of questions. I prepurchased the From the Vault: Transform and I plan on building either Gisela or Bruna. The point of running either as commander is not necessarily to consitently meld them (although doing so every so often would be a plus). However, I do want to build one in the hopes of building a monoW EDH (which to me is the hardest type of deck to build in commander).
Which of the two do you consider a good commander to start with? What do you recommend?
Are both strategies starkly different? Can I swap a minimum amount of cards to alternate them as commander?
You run each half in each other deck. How consistent can you meld them?
Any high and low points for each of them?
I'm leaning a bit towards Gisela since she's cheaper to cast (so maybe she's easier to build). And I've seen your list for a while and it seems solid. But then you go and also build around Bruna, lol. So now you made it even harder for me to choose!
What can I say.... I am a sucker for mono white.
Given that I have played Gisela for over a year now and I am just now working on Bruna I guess I have a bias towards Gisela as it stands.
I have built Gisela into a voltron deck over time. She comes in fast and I pick up a lot of cool value in lifegain matters. She is incredibly well stated given all of her abilities as well as her low cost which really does push her to playing a little faster. Given my experience with her though I can say that on occasion if you dont find your draw your can be at the mercy of the topdeck. I have also found that metas who wrath (espeically noncreature things) can hurt Gisela a bit more. When you get to the games where you are on T12 and someone blows up all nonlands and all you can do is recast Gisela it hurts. In that regard I think that Bruna is a little stronger in a heavier control meta as well as if you want to play in bigger 5+ player games with one or the other. Bruna feels more responsive rather than proactive and I think she wants to play a bit more like a control deck. So really its the question of a more aggressive voltron or a more reactive control which I dont know that there is really a right answer. I hope that ideally they both play drastically different as I would find it more entertaining that way. Gisela for instance doesn't really need other creatures so the ones I do run are more of card advantage than for alternative beaters where Bruna is less of a commander damage focused deck in the way I was building her.
Currently I run Thalia's Lancers in each list as the only way to tutor the other half. I considered possibly running some additional options such as Citanul Flute, Ring of Three Wishes, or even Planar Bridge but in the end I felt like all of them were really just too much mana to justify what I was getting back out of them. I think its fun when I get to meld but to be honest then I have to fight through clones and still its not that hard to remove the melded and it usually jumps in people's priority to do that which in the end... I usually dont put too much worry about if I can or cannot meld. Bruna is going to be superior when it comes to the question of who can do it better since as the commander she can rez Gisela back to play if it gets taken apart.
Well.... I havent played Bruna yet so I have a harder time talking about how it plays as I haven't yet put it together / played it. Its the question of if you want a more reactive control focused list or a more aggressive proactive gameplan.
Given my own experience right now I would go with Gisela personally but its the difference between one year of playing and a theoretical list so that kind of speaks for itself.
Why the Magus of the Tabernacle and the Tabernacle itself when you run lots of creatures yourself?
Tabernacle isn't going to hurt for having 2-3 creatures. Its primary purpose is to hinder token strategies and go wide strategies. It is true that I have a good number of creatures in my list but I don't have so many that I expect to have 5+ creatures in play at a time. It is probably more realistic to expect 2-3 on average. These effects are strong because you can drop them in before the token swarm or after it has been created and in either case its going to hit them hard. Some effects like Propaganda can be great but they are great so long as they remain living. Tabernacle often hits them with their pants down in that unless they have an answer and mana up to use it, its going to hit them before they can use it.
Because of the commander's rez I actually like the magus possibly more than the real copies of what they do for this list. Its kind of cool as usually I find it to be the other way around.
Burnished Hart -> Knight of the White Orchid so I have an issue with burnished from the standpoint of playing it out over two turns but also it feels a little slow here to play it as a 6 mana ramp card. I am going to move to the knight because it ramps me sooner and it gives me a body I can use to swing with equipment. This change still does not clear up my issue of running land ramp combined with the if I have less lands go get lands effects but I think the knight ramps me more appropriately plus fits into my equpment plan. Casting my commander and getting a land off of her also sounds kind of reasonable as it can keep me moving forward with casting her if it comes to that as well.
Yeah, voltron Gisela would be great but it's as you say: with a creature-hate heavy build it'll be difficult. I also already kind of have a voltron deck with my Zurgo Helmsmasher; I like to avoid building decks with similar strategies whenever possible. But with buying the From the Vault: Transform I really have no excuse to not build Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, lol. Goldfishing on Cockatrice the deck seems to run really well. I'm gonna give it my own spin, though, while maintaining the speed. Gisela has to hit the table fast in order to smash face quickly. Best play I've had so far was T1 Plains into Sol Ring into Lightning Greaves. T2 Plains into Gisela. It was glorious.
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Yeah, voltron Gisela would be great but it's as you say: with a creature-hate heavy build it'll be difficult. I also already kind of have a voltron deck with my Zurgo Helmsmasher; I like to avoid building decks with similar strategies whenever possible. But with buying the From the Vault: Transform I really have no excuse to not build Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, lol. Goldfishing on Cockatrice the deck seems to run really well. I'm gonna give it my own spin, though, while maintaining the speed. Gisela has to hit the table fast in order to smash face quickly. Best play I've had so far was T1 Plains into Sol Ring into Lightning Greaves. T2 Plains into Gisela. It was glorious.
If you get a list together I would be interested to see it. I need to get this one suited up but I think its my next project right now.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Yeah, voltron Gisela would be great but it's as you say: with a creature-hate heavy build it'll be difficult. I also already kind of have a voltron deck with my Zurgo Helmsmasher; I like to avoid building decks with similar strategies whenever possible. But with buying the From the Vault: Transform I really have no excuse to not build Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, lol. Goldfishing on Cockatrice the deck seems to run really well. I'm gonna give it my own spin, though, while maintaining the speed. Gisela has to hit the table fast in order to smash face quickly. Best play I've had so far was T1 Plains into Sol Ring into Lightning Greaves. T2 Plains into Gisela. It was glorious.
If you get a list together I would be interested to see it. I need to get this one suited up but I think its my next project right now.
Defintely! Once I polish it up a bit more and do some more testing on Cockatrice (against other people) I'll drop a list in your Gisela thread.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I got this list together over the last two days and I made a few small adjustments as I was working on it. I am hoping to play this deck tonight.
DECK CHANGES:
Salvage Scout -> Stonecloaker I got to thinking a little about the fact that the scout was very reactive and really isnt good until mid to late in the game. Some of my concerns offhand with this deck since it is more of a control style of mono white is if my opponents are abusing their graveyards. Stonecloaker is also sort of a mid to late game card generally but I felt like someone abusing their graveyard might actually be very challanging for me to fight against without more dedicated grave hate. I like cloaker from the standpoint that it can potentially bounce Bruna back to hand in a pinch as well. The repeatable instant speed graveyard hate that it gives is what I am primarily after though.
Knight-Captain of Eos -> Protector of the Crown I got to thinking and honestly, there were just a lot of issues I had with the thought of the knight captain in this list. The tokens are not really helpful and the fogs are only ok in that its not an answer to the problem. Protector of the Crown spins me up some card draw which I feel I can defend fairly well with my commander and the concepts of my deck. The damage redirect of the giant in a lot of cases gives me a fog as well and it should be a little challenging to get past my commander as well.
Gideon Jura -> Reito Lantern I felt like Gideon was more of a cute thought than a good one. I wanted and needed more graveyard hate but I am also trying not to blow up my own graveyard. Given this I kind of like the Lantern for some repeatable defense vs graveyard decks.
1 Plains -> Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx it seemed odd to not run Nykthos here. Casting my commander should usually bring Nykthos to at least neutral mana generation if not going positive. I did bring my basic land count down one more which I think is fine given I am more of a control deck than a deck with consistent proactive plays.
Diamond Valley -> Thawing Glaciers I didn't want my lands that don't tap for mana to get too out of hand. I felt like I wanted card advantage / land drops more than I wanted a sac outlet in this case.
Miren, the Moaning Well -> Thespian's Stage I have always had an issue with how much mana it is to activate Miren. I thought that a Thespian's Stage could possibly clone someone else's sac lands and there is always the option of it copying an opposing 2+ mana land.
I guess we will see how the deck does tonight. I think the move to pick up more grave hate should be a good move. Moving to 4 dedicated graveyard hate effects might seem a little extreme but given that I am a mono white control deck I think its better to have a little heavy than not enough given the issues with tutors and draw in a deck like this.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I wasn't wrong on my Radiant thread. Tons of overlap in what we're trying to do here. I'll come back with actual discussion points once I have a chance to try out my list a little more.
Looking over your list, I feel like you're going to run into color problems on a semi regular basis. You're sitting on 20 white sources in your lands, with a few cards that can function as white sources with some mana investment. Has 16 colorless lands and two more that don't produce mana been working out for you? I typically like close to half my deck dedicated to mana in more controlling lists, especially when you're running some pretty high CMC stuff.
Also, Crackdown is a great mono-W control card, especially when you're running a pair of Tabernacles to suppress swarms. You'll still have to eat one hit from bigger guys, and then they're effectively out of combat. Helps shut down occasional creatures with tap abilities too.
I wasn't wrong on my Radiant thread. Tons of overlap in what we're trying to do here. I'll come back with actual discussion points once I have a chance to try out my list a little more.
Looking over your list, I feel like you're going to run into color problems on a semi regular basis. You're sitting on 20 white sources in your lands, with a few cards that can function as white sources with some mana investment. Has 16 colorless lands and two more that don't produce mana been working out for you? I typically like close to half my deck dedicated to mana in more controlling lists, especially when you're running some pretty high CMC stuff.
Also, Crackdown is a great mono-W control card, especially when you're running a pair of Tabernacles to suppress swarms. You'll still have to eat one hit from bigger guys, and then they're effectively out of combat. Helps shut down occasional creatures with tap abilities too.
No problem, I just stumbled on your list and was like..... ***** we are doing like the same concept.
Lands - I haven't had any issues with it yet. I tend to play it a little greedy when it comes to manabases for mono colored decks because I think the fact that I jam them full of utility actually helps in a lot of ways that limiting to mono color can help overcome. Given how my commander is a little slower on the curve as well I worry a little less about my landbase here given I wont always have any specific card I am trying to curve early that needs colored mana. I did count something like 7 nonbasics that can also potentially give me colored mana or get me access to colored mana.
Crackdown - I think its a cool card its just not something I have found to be all that reliable in the metas I have played in. Sometimes I have to be worried about something turning sideways a single time (like a big token swarm). It is potentially nice vs beefy creatures but my commander is also a big beef stack with vigilance so to some degree I have a hard time with it because of that. Its possible that something like Crawlspace might be better given it limits / denies access to the first swing in some cases. Most of these effects are kind of situational based on what kind of deck / opponent we encounter though.
Overall, my list is still kind of rough as I have only put it through a handfull of games now. I figured out a few things I like and a few I don't as much.
After a few games of testing I will say its kind of fun and interesting to play. Its not as powerful as several of my other decks but its a lot of fun to play. Angel of Condemnation was really clutch in several games as it helped me stall off a fast start commander centric deck as well as later giving me defense vs a Xenagos, God of Revels deck.
Crovax, Ascendant Hero -> Twilight Shepherd Crovax just felt too narrow in where he was helping me. I drew him in a game where there were no token decks and he just felt really expensive for what he was doing for me. I looked through my list and for now I felt like I have enough token defense in the moats / wraths / Magus of the Tabernacle. Twilight Shepherd seems interesting to me as it has decent stats and if I ever have it in play with Bruna it gives me some wrath defense in that I could get a cheaper commander back to hand if they wrath.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence -> Silverblade Paladin Linvala felt too narrow. I did manage to disable a Feldon of the Third Path with it but even then, I just felt like my meta is not quite right for her to really shine. Silverblade Paladin I am not quite sure of but I do run some equipment in this deck and the idea of a commander punching for 10 sounds spicy. I could see hitting a wrath and recasting my commander rezing this guy and having a good clock.
Magus of the Disk -> Conqueror's Galleon ok, I did get the magus and its..... amusing but probably not good enough. It was cool that I could rez it but the turn delay with it felt kind of bad. I really like all of the utility that Conqueror's Foothold brings and being that I run a bunch of random creatures I don't mind tapping some random stuff to crew it. The ramp, filter, draw, and recursion it all offers sound great for this style of deck.
Angel of Finality -> Adarkar Valkyrie I had possibly one too many grave hate effects in the list to get started and of them I felt that the angel and Reito Lantern were probably the weakest of them. I decided that the body on the angel was not really that helpful but the ability for my opponents to clone it is possibly a liability so I decided to cut it. Adarkar Valkyrie seems like an annoying creature to stick around and given my commander I feel like I can sort of force some things to stick arround.
Hammer of Nazahn -> Baneslayer Angel I found the hammer to be a little lackluster here since I dont really care if things die as much. Given that my commander can usually handle my single target defenses decently I thought something to put pressure and give me a little life buffer would be nice.
Reya Dawnbringer -> Kozilek, the Great Distortion I just didnt have the targets for Reya for her to be good. Kozilek gives me some draw and another beater option. I am not quite sure on him in part given that he would be really annoying if my opponents got their hands on him but still, I need some draw and I think it will help.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -> Bazaar of Baghdad I dont want to get too heavy on lands that dont tap for mana so I decided to move to something that could move some cads over tabernacle. I could go back to tabernacle if it proves that I need it again but I feel like moving cards might prove to be more helpful for me.
In the few games I did have I felt like I needed to push for more draw and more relevant creatures to rez. I like some of the niche utility and hatebears but I need to try to narrow in on the ones that are relevant more often. I do have some high hopes for this set of changes. The deck is a lot of fun to play so far.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was looking at some more of the Rivals of Ixilan cards now that everything is spoiled. I wont bother doing a full set review here because really in the end there were like 4 cards maybe worth considering from the set for mono white and only one of them was even white.
DECK CHANGES:
Silverblade Paladin -> Azor's Gateway I got to thinking about the paladin and it felt a little more winmore than I was originally thinking in that anytime I have some big angel in play I am probably doing fine anyways. I considered moving to something like Scroll Rack but I felt like I was lacking shuffle effects to do that. I don't really foresee myself flipping the gateway but honestly in this case, I actually want what is on the front side of this card as the ability to cheaply filter my hand sounds great to me. Sure it exiles things rather than discarding but its cheap to play and cheap to activate. The draw comes before the discard and all of that means that its a fairly ideal and cheap filter effect.
Knight of the White Orchid -> Golden Guardian (Gold-Forge Garrison) I managed to see the knight a few times and my issue is that somehow this deck puts a lot of lands into play. If I get it early on its still worse than a lot of my other land fetching effects and while I was justifying it with the fact that I could rez it, I could never get a land back from playing it when I was playing this deck. Golden Guardian is a cool card in that it gives me a mana sink that actually makes decent tokens that I could see using in mono white, it also flips to a land that gives 2 colored mana which is really cool. Being that I am running a bunch of fatty angels that this card can come down and kill itself on I feel like I can flip it fairly easy.
Overall, I do have some concern as to how many targets I have to rez but at the same time I think that both of these were probably not going to be my main focus in rezing anyways. It does make me worry a little that I am taking two early game creatures and removing them for noncreatures but that is assuming I draw them early anyways.
Just a small change but I had intended to make room for Arch of Orazca previously. I am going to mimic what I did with my Gisela deck with the change as the landbase is a bit similar here and I think my need for mazes here is possibly lower than with Gisela.
DECK CHANGE:
Mystifying Maze -> Arch of Orazca the cost to activate these lands is similar and with a big flying vigilant angel I have some decent defense already. I like the option to pick up a bit more card advantage / draw instead for now.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've finally got around to checking out your list. I'm not stalking your threads, I promise, we just seem to be working on the same stuff. This list looks tidy - how are you finding it running at present? It's clearly a higher budget deck than what I'm running, but I'm always looking for ways to improve the way my decks play. Thus, I have a couple of cards to ask about:
I've tossed up MoM here before, as it's good draw and a good way to set up reanimation. The dagger I'm not sure about on account of the plants, but I guess we have flying here so no biggie? Azor's Gateway, I guess when it transforms it could be tremendously good mana, but it's a high threshold to flip. MoT I really like for its nastiness, do you find it hard to hold up enough mana to keep your creatures in play? My main concern with my list is slowing or stopping opponents long enough to get my boardstate to a reasonable level - without Land Tax and a strong landbase I'm usually not flying out of the gates to a quick start, and so I try to run a reasonable amount of grief. I've considered adding Magus of the Tabernacle before, as well as Crackdown.
I've finally got around to checking out your list. I'm not stalking your threads, I promise, we just seem to be working on the same stuff. This list looks tidy - how are you finding it running at present? It's clearly a higher budget deck than what I'm running, but I'm always looking for ways to improve the way my decks play. Thus, I have a couple of cards to ask about:
I've tossed up MoM here before, as it's good draw and a good way to set up reanimation. The dagger I'm not sure about on account of the plants, but I guess we have flying here so no biggie? Azor's Gateway, I guess when it transforms it could be tremendously good mana, but it's a high threshold to flip. MoT I really like for its nastiness, do you find it hard to hold up enough mana to keep your creatures in play? My main concern with my list is slowing or stopping opponents long enough to get my boardstate to a reasonable level - without Land Tax and a strong landbase I'm usually not flying out of the gates to a quick start, and so I try to run a reasonable amount of grief. I've considered adding Magus of the Tabernacle before, as well as Crackdown.
Curious to hear your thoughts, thanks ISB!
Hey no problem. I put them in my signature for myself and others to access them. I have only gotten to run it for maybe 6 to 8 games now. My LGS closed down right before Christmas so I have actually not gotten out to play since then as the next closest thing is an hour drive and they apparently only do games on Friday nights which to be honest by Friday night I do not really want to drive 2 hours for some magic lol.
Overall thought I have kind of felt like any time I still have the capability to cast Bruna or have her in play I am still doing fine and that is a lot of what fuels how I play it right now. One of my last games was against a Xenagos, God of Revels deck where he managed to Malignus hit me in a situation I was forced to chump block with Bruna. From there the game stretched on with me at very low life total for another several turns. In that time I ended up casting Bruna so many times that I managed to get her up to being like a 9 powered creature via Opal Palace. I managed to stay in that game in part because I had a Dowsing Dagger I had flipped and then I used Thespian Stage on the flipped land of it for a huge boost in my mana production. Angel of Condemnation has so far been potentially the MVP of this deck as I forced that same Xenagos deck to kill it twice and finally stop it via a Chaos Warp. I just love the flexibility that it brings to the deck being an angel that can really be strong on defense. I had one game where I deprived a Zirilan of the Claw deck of the use of his commander for like 3-4 turns via a T3 Angel of Condemnation as he ramped more than me but I went before him and ramped into the angel.
Dowsing Dagger - the only real concerns I have about it is if I manage to also get Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer, or Tithe. That said though, this is mono white and its hardly any sort of guarantee that I will get any specific card. I have had games in which I just go first or my opponents stumble and those effects might fall off as well though. That does not mean that I don't run them though. You could also have an opponent be a green ramp deck and the downside of ramping once or twice might not be an issue. What I love about this card is that Lost Vale is not a legendary land and so you can copy it as well. Almost all of my actual attackers are flyers so I don't think that giving someone plants is really a big concern. I usually try to avoid giving them to anyone who might be a sacrifice based deck but you get to pick where they go so its mostly not an issue.
Mask of Memory - this card is sooooooooooo much value. I have actually been using it for a good bit of time now but given how much flying we have I really just send this anywhere that someone does not have a blocker. It has better card advantage than Sword of Fire and Ice and it costs less to drop + equip. The discard can even be helpful in combination with something like Land Tax or to set up a rez potentially so I really love this card. The only real question is if you have something to attack with that you can connect this up with. Given that my commander is a 7 drop I am often looking for something to put this on before my commander comes out. All that said though, getting to see more card draw off of this card and discard after drawing up higher is so much more powerful card advantage than Sword of Fire and Ice. It even sets up for rez effects if you want. Ultimately I would rate this card quite high among a deck that uses evasive creatures (like a bunch of angels).
Azor's Gateway - I run this card 90% for the front side of the card because I think that the reality of it is that its not all that likely to flip. This card is very cheap to cast and use and you draw before the exile. While its true that its hard to abuse this card the reality of it is that it is VERY cheap to cast and use and it ALWAYS improves your hand by dropping the worst card. There is essentially never a bad time to use this card because the draw is before the exile and given I am in mono white I have seen plenty of games where I just top deck like 4 lands in a row and sometimes you just don't need something you have been sitting on or sometimes you really need a specific thing you don't have. I have not gotten to play this card yet but for mono white there is a lot of power in cheap filter.
Magus of the Tabernacle - being that the commander is so strong vs single attacks it leaves some concern about being swarmed. On a turn to turn basis we don't have that many creatures in play so the maintenance of this card is not so bad because our draw is low and the number of bodies we play tends to be low as well. Don't get me wrong, I think this is just a measure to try to keep people somewhat fair when it comes to tokens but if someone plays a bunch of bodies its really hard to pay for their upkeep and smash a Craterhoof Behemoth in the same turn. I consider this more of a tax to slow them down and or keep their token numbers more fair but it does a fairly good job for me most of the time as it generally requires some sort of infinite loop or Gaea's Cradle to power past this with numbers + follow up.
Crackdown - my issue with these effects is that you have to let them swing at least once. My concern for this type of deck tends to be more towards someone playing token swarm, a really heavy value Blue / Black control, infinite combo, or MLD. I don't see much that Crackdown helps vs as it is more of an effect that would stop like a voltron deck from hitting you repeatedly when I think voltron is one of the better matchups for a big fat angel vigilant angel. I am more worried about decks that might come at me really hard in one shot than I am something that is going to fairly hit me repeatedly until I die. In the game I mentioned earlier I almost got one shotted by a single creature with trample / my HP in stats. Crackdown / Meekstone have always been questionable cards to me because they don't stop the first hit from things and opponents get to play arround them in the way that most benefits them.
I should be able to play some games next week as I am going back to my old meta next week. The problem then becomes that I have sooooooooooooooo many decks that need to get played that its going to be hard to play them all. I did get to get a BUNCH of playtesting with this deck last time I did play which you can see I made a lot of changes at the end of December for this list based on how the deck was doing then. Ultimately as long as I can keep hitting land drops and have the ability to have my commander in play or cast my commander again I feel like I am doing well with this deck. I did end up moving my curve up a little and having a few more big angels after the last time I played this deck as often I just wanted bigger value in what I was rezing.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Thanks for the thorough response! Most helpful indeed.
Dowsing Dagger I can kind of see a spot for in my build. There's enough fliers at an early stage that I could connect and flip this pretty easily, and without most of the ramp you mentioned this would be a welcome addition. And I guess I don't need to be too threatened by 0/2 plants in most cases.
Mask of Memory will be added. I was already tossing it up, but it sounds like there's literally almost no downside here. Especially with my build which runs slightly more reanimation than yours.
Azor's Gateway - I don't know. Exiling is rough. I mean it's good early draw and that's great. It just seems a really high cost to pay.
Magus of the Tabernacle - this is a fair assessment. I like it, and I'm not afraid to spend mana, so long as this achieves what it sets out to do. And I agree regarding Crackdown and Meekstone - running a whole lot of Kismet and Thalia, Heretic Cathar style effects could make it worth running, but that's not what this deck needs to do. This isn't Derevi, we only need soft control. And tbh I'm pretty happy with Crawlspace.
I'm much the same, I haven't played a lot recently, and this is one of those decks my wife won't face down. It's not fun being softlocked with an enormous flying eldrazi facing you down. It's been hard to get to my LGS too, so I'm looking forward to changing some bits and pieces out and heading through.
Azor's Gateway - I don't know. Exiling is rough. I mean it's good early draw and that's great. It just seems a really high cost to pay.
In every case you are throwing away the least relivant card to the matchup. I think its very strange to worry about exiling cards when you get so much more reach and you get to make so many more decisions in general. What if instead of exiling it, it just put a card on the bottom of your library? We are never going to toolbox / tutor for every card and the cards I am talking about exiling in each case are the cards that are the weakest cards in our hand. What if we draw moats / tabernacle / defensive cards vs a planeswalker deck? In that case we are sitting on some awkward cards. What if we have a hand of wraths but have control of the board? What if we find spot removal vs some sort of wide swarm token deck? In almost every case of commander we have cards that can and will come up in situations that make them less ideal. That is not to say that something like Swords to Plowshares is a bad card or that we would never want to include wrath effects in our decks but there will be times that it is not what you need. You can also chain draw lands at times where you really need action.
The point I am getting at is that it is far less relevant that we are exiling cards because we get to pick and choose our best cards for any situation and remove the worst card. Its not like I am going to be ditching Moats and Tabernacles as I face down a token deck. We will ultimately have cards that are stronger or weaker depending upon the decks we face and the strength of a card like Azor's Gateway is that it lets us cheaply move our hand to whatever we need in that situation.
Now, all of that said.... I have not yet played Azor's Gateway. I am more referring to that I think that the reaction that exiling cards is bad is a wrong mentality. This card functions in such a way that it ALWAYS gives you the best hand. If it forced you to exile a card and then draw a card it would be a completely different story but with the exile after the draw your hand should remain the same or improve every time.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
That's definite food for thought. I see your point - the chances are you'll never have a full grip of cards none of which you want to toss. I guess it's a kneejerk reaction to be concerned about not having the ability to get the cards back that you've thrown, and I'm not really interested in running Mirror of Fate or Pull from Eternity.
The tradeoff is very early draw in a better context than Mind Stone, being as it's repeatable. Mono white can't afford to turn down that sort of advantage, and considering I don't have access to some of the stronger, more epxensive effects that ramp or draw like Mind's Eye or Land Tac, I guess I shouldn't turn it down out of hand. The eventuall payoff could be well worth it, too. It remains to be seen how easily it'll transform, but that's a cherry on top I guess.
All this being said, I still think I'll wait to hear reports on how well it fares - I don't expect it to be barnstormingly amazing, but I won't completely dismiss the idea of adding it.
Given the sudden burst of Dominaria spoilers, I figured I would go through what I had seen so far.
Karn, Scion of Urza - its cheap / repeatable card draw. It has a somewhat cheap cost to get it going and it pushes itself up in loyalty quite nicely. It is a value over time sort of walker but I think it probably has a payback somewhere around 2-3 activations. Normally speaking at 4 mana I would want to get three cards back but given that this is mono white its a little debatable. This deck is reactive rather than proactive though so vigilant creatures and or saving blockers is kind of acceptable.
Baird, Steward of Argive - forcing a tax to attack is actually very similar to the goal of Magus of the Tabernacle in that the goal is to limit how many tokens attack me at once and or the ability to have a swarm of guys and pump them. There are some advantages and disadvantages of this card. For instance, if someone were to use something like Craterhoof Behemoth it would be a disadvantage in that they would have higher numbers and still would not need to attack me with all of them to gain a better benefit. On the other side though, I still kind of want opponents to be getting murdered by opposing tokens. I guess there is some level of question of how it varies from Archangel of Tithes which I currently do not run but I think its possible that both could be worth some level of consideration.
Lyra Dawnbriger - Really..... it seems like an improvement over Baneslayer Angel (whom I have questionably added). I am willing to give it a shot but I guess it will depend on its price tag. It seems like a nice one to rez a buff for my commander that also gives me a stat + lifelink boost.
Blackblade Reforged - I like the potential boost this could give. I don't know if it is good enough or not but it costs one less than Strata Scythe and it does not punish my nonbasic additions.
Baird, Steward of Argive - forcing a tax to attack is actually very similar to the goal of Magus of the Tabernacle in that the goal is to limit how many tokens attack me at once and or the ability to have a swarm of guys and pump them. There are some advantages and disadvantages of this card. For instance, if someone were to use something like Craterhoof Behemoth it would be a disadvantage in that they would have higher numbers and still would not need to attack me with all of them to gain a better benefit. On the other side though, I still kind of want opponents to be getting murdered by opposing tokens. I guess there is some level of question of how it varies from Archangel of Tithes which I currently do not run but I think its possible that both could be worth some level of consideration.
I'll definitely be looking to pick this up for my build.
Lyra Dawnbriger - Really..... it seems like an improvement over Baneslayer Angel (whom I have questionably added). I am willing to give it a shot but I guess it will depend on its price tag. It seems like a nice one to rez a buff for my commander that also gives me a stat + lifelink boost.
I'm less convinced that there's a place for this, but lifelink keeps you...well, alive. To my mind you either add this or Blackblade Reforged, depending on whether your game plan is to alpha strike, or swing for commander damage. There's no reason not to have an option to do either considering the enormity of Brisela, but personally I'm only really interested in allowing so many slots for creature pumps.
Karn, Scion of Urza - Given that so much of this deck is defensive value generation and defenses the value he provides is an interesting thought here. Given that this deck does a lot more self defense I think the chance of him sticking a few turns is higher here which is a good sign.
Baird, Steward of Argive - its a human and it can tax opponents. Given we can rez it, it does have some measure of potential when comparing against Windborn Muse / Ghostly Prison but there is still Archangel of Tithes which still fits on creature type. Baird is interesting in that it has vigilance where as the Archangel has different utility in that it varies between when it should be attacking and when it should be sitting back. Either way.... I think both seem a little weak but if I was having more issues with tokens I could see adding either or both.
Danitha Capashen, Paragon - its a human and I like the things it has. The problem I have is that I don't really run much for buffs so this running about as a 2/2 seems not that great.
Dauntless Bodyguard - its a cool trick and its a human. My issue is in part that I don't think it gives enough that I would honestly want to rez it if I were casting Bruna. It has some similarity to Bastion Protector but it lacks the stat buff and this one requires to sacrifice to give the protection. I think there is enough power drop off from Bastion Protector that I am not willing to run it. You can also lead Bastion Protector in before Bruna and protect where as Dauntless has to follow her. There is some advantage in that Dauntless could protect some other creature other than Bruna but I still think its not quite powerful enough for my likes.
Lyra Dawnbriger - its got good stats and lifelink plus it gives a small size buff and lifelink to my other angels (including commander). It seems like a solid upgrade over Baneslayer Angel which I very hesitantly added so I think its a solid upgrade over that slot which I already thought was fairly questionable.
Blackblade Reforged - I am not really a voltron deck but this could be a big size buff. When I play this deck I do normally get up to 10+ lands assuming things play out how I want it to. It seems fairly likely that this adds another 1-2 attacks worth of power to my commander. Having 5 power is fairly odd in that it takes 5 attacks by default to kill someone but I see this equipment as something to buff my commander to be able to 2 shot people fairly easily. The problem I have is that it seems like it would still waste a decent bit of its power as it cant reliably get to the point it would one shot opponents. I am still trying to assess how I feel about it ultimately.
Urza's Tome - its just ok cycling. The cost to cycle is kind of heavy and ultimately its utility seems somewhat limited in what it does.
Weatherlight - I count high 20s on my historic targets in my list. The crew cost seems reasonable given I am a creature based deck that is not voltron. On average.... I should hit a target when I would attack with this and most of those are not lands (2 legendary lands). Ultimately the average of hitting a target to draw and the fact that most of what I can hit seems like fairly good action.... this could.... maybe be a thing. I think the fact that it should on average hit something given higher than 1/4 chance to hit as well as the fact that most everything it would hit is going to be some sort of action.... yea I could see giving this card a shot. I am not really sure entirely how to assess
Overall this set has some good food for thought. Karn is a very interesting proposition to me but ultimately I think its going to be several turns before it really generates much. I watched someone at the pre release play one and flip two lands. Essentially anytime you flip a land you are probably getting that and not the juicy and interesting card next to it. My issue is that it seems like AT LEAST a few turns before he pays for himself and he is so fragile and his upfront value probably sucks. Given his high price tag and what I have seen so far from him in formats where he should be far better I have reasons to be concerned about his performance for commander. Blackblade Reforged is the one card so far that I feel like I don't really know where I stand right now. For the time being I am going to pass on it but its something I think I could come back to.
DECK CHANGES:
Baneslayer Angel -> Lyra Dawnbringer this seems like an easy swap. They really do the same thing but Lyra buffs my commander and other angels plus adds more lifegain.
Protector of the Crown -> Weatherlight Protector is interesting and I like that monarch spins up draw a little faster but it also paints an incentive to hitting my face. Weatherlight's draw is probably superior as most historic cards in the deck are above average and mostly nonland (aka action of some sort). There is a downside that it has summoning sickness so it takes longer to start drawing and it requires creatures to crew it but..... its card advantage in mono white. I am willing to give it a shot at least.
Lyra seems like a no brainer given I had baneslayer in for testing. I think the vehicle is a little more questionable but I also think the monarch giant was questionable. I am willing to give it a shot at least and see if it works out for me.
A fellow white mage! I highly recommend Remember the Fallen. It’s a 2 for 1, which white should always strongly consider, and getting an artifact back is important.
And since this deck is fairly tribal, I like Heirloom Blade. It’s better than Skullclamp in this deck because the +3/+1 makes your creatures more relevant in combat. 1 mana to equip for those stats added to a creature is very good, and it replaces itself if your creature dies. Beyond that it’s card advantage. And even though it’s not as good on your general, it’s good on the creature she gets back. I also suggest Sword of Light and Shadow for the same reasons. I do understand, however, that your Bruna build is more on the control side, so that might shift the focus too much to aggro.
Teferi’s Protection is good to protect your permanents. And you run enough board wipes that you can use it proactively to blow up everything except your stuff. I like it better in control decks than aggro decks, because control decks are more likely to be able to handle the thing they had to use Teferi’s Protection for.
Finally, do you ever have mana issues? You seem to be cutting it close for a 7 mana general.
I very much like your build though. My Bruna deck is a bit more aggro focused. It’s fun, but seeing your deck makes me think control is the way to go. By the way, I’m stealing your Magus of the Tabernacle. I forgot he existed.
A fellow white mage! I highly recommend Remember the Fallen. It’s a 2 for 1, which white should always strongly consider, and getting an artifact back is important.
And since this deck is fairly tribal, I like Heirloom Blade. It’s better than Skullclamp in this deck because the +3/+1 makes your creatures more relevant in combat. 1 mana to equip for those stats added to a creature is very good, and it replaces itself if your creature dies. Beyond that it’s card advantage. And even though it’s not as good on your general, it’s good on the creature she gets back. I also suggest Sword of Light and Shadow for the same reasons. I do understand, however, that your Bruna build is more on the control side, so that might shift the focus too much to aggro.
Teferi’s Protection is good to protect your permanents. And you run enough board wipes that you can use it proactively to blow up everything except your stuff. I like it better in control decks than aggro decks, because control decks are more likely to be able to handle the thing they had to use Teferi’s Protection for.
Finally, do you ever have mana issues? You seem to be cutting it close for a 7 mana general.
I very much like your build though. My Bruna deck is a bit more aggro focused. It’s fun, but seeing your deck makes me think control is the way to go. By the way, I’m stealing your Magus of the Tabernacle. I forgot he existed.
I am hesitant to push for more graveyard abuse given that I already have some issues sometimes getting anything to rez. Rez effects are very dependant on opponents to have and use their removal on you as well as for you to have drawn things worth destroying as well. I played a game this last week where I literally landed Sun Titan + Archangel of Thune and I literally had no graveyard for like.... the rest of that game. I closed out the game and I only cast my commander on the second to last turn.
This isn't to say that graveyard rez effects are not good, I am more saying that sometimes I don't have the draw to push enough resources to always have extra things. Rez is a lot stronger when you get filter effects as well. I played a game yesterday with a friend 1v1 and I rode Bazaar of Baghdad + Emeria Shepherd to some really crazy value.
Remember the Fallen - I have very few enchantments so I think there is a very real chance that this just recovers one artifact. Its dead until there is something to recover and I don't feel like any of the artifacts in my list are needed for this list to work. What if instead I just drew another card? This card is likely to be a recover one effect but its dead early and its unlikely that it really ever recovers two cards.
Heirloom Blade - the difference between drawing one card and drawing two is kind of big. Also of note, I don't run Skullclamp because I am not really an ETB / Dies list. Some of my creatures might fit that mentality but overall I didn't feel I could build in that way. Most of my creatures tend to be things I want to stick for over time effects which is why I did not build into Skullclamp. I do still think I would run Skullclamp over the blade though because its cheaper to cast / equip and the value difference of two cards vs one angel / human I would still probably prefer to draw two cards.
Sword of Light and Shadow - I think its too situational. I often wait to cast my commander until I can get a rez from it and I have seen far too often in games where this is drawn early and it does nothing. This sword is just so situational for having things in your graveyard but if you do get some filter online it does make it a little easier to do this but still, I am not that big of a fan of it because of how long it can do nothing for. Being that I am mono white it can be harder to generate resources and so the time upfront that this does nothing can be bigger.
Teferi's Protection - It is a good card but there are a number of reasons I don't run it in this list. First of all, my commander I cast responsively and its often I don't have her in play for a while upfront. She is a huge part of my rebuild plan and if I do get swept, casting my commander is a great way to get back into play real fast. Second, this list often plays off of a few big threats. This list does not tend to go all that wide and just a few threats is usually all I am really pushing at any one time. Three, I tend to like it more in decks that have more card advantage in them. I run it for example in my Sram list in part because I put a lot more cards to play and I draw a heck of a lot more cards. I am not saying it is wrong to play as it is a great card but I don't think that I need its effect for this list in part because of how heavy our threats are and how casting our commander brings so much presence that I often use as my leading recovery tool.
Mana Issues - its been fairly good for me. I haven't noticed much of a problem. I often find myself having the most mana at the table. I can recall a game where there were a lot of wraths where I think I cast Bruna at 15 or 17 mana. In that game I was also using Opal Palace so it was hilarious when I had a huge commander lol.
Random side note, I have managed to see Twilight Shepherd several times now and..... it is really really awful. I just never really want to draw or play it. I was hoping that I would kind of like it for wrath insurance but so far... it has kind of sucked. I am going to keep jamming it for now but I have not liked it so far. There just are not that many big angels that I have wanted thus far.
All interesting points. One correction, though. Remember the Fallen gets back a creature and/or artifact. Not enchantment.
You’re right about Sword of Light and Shadow. Even in my build with more creatures it sometimes misses triggers. About Heirloom Blade, you missed that it gives +3/+1 for 1 mana. This makes any angel an actual threat. Angels are usually not very big, but the blade gives them teeth. The fact that it replaces itself is good too, but wasn’t the full point.
I find it surprising that you usually have the most mana. No green players? In my group, white, red, and blue usually don’t have more mana than green. I always feel like I’m barely keeping up in the early game. I played a 5cc creature today on turn 5. One guy already had Avenger of Zendikar out. Things turn in my favor if I can board wipe and catch back up, but sometimes I simply don’t draw one. There’s no way white can compete in terms of mana.
I agree about Twilight Shepherd. Situationally, she can be good, but rarely seems to work the way I imagine she will. I’m cutting mine for Adarkar Valkyrie.
Random side note, I have managed to see Twilight Shepherd several times now and..... it is really really awful. I just never really want to draw or play it. I was hoping that I would kind of like it for wrath insurance but so far... it has kind of sucked. I am going to keep jamming it for now but I have not liked it so far. There just are not that many big angels that I have wanted thus far.
I feel the same way about Shepherd. It's suboptimal and I find myself not ever wanting to cast it. I think it's problem is that, given it doesn't have flash, you can't cast it into a sweeper. Which means in order to get its effect you need to sac a whole ton or swing into an unfavourable situation. I can't see anyone allowing that with it already on the field, which makes its persist a little redundant. Not only that, the 3WWW is a bit rough.
I'm on the hunt for an alternative for it myself. Eventually (budget allowing), I will switch it out. I'd like to add Lyra Dawnbringer, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Recruiter of the Guard, so either of these could be an easy replacement.
The concept here is that my commander has a strong value rez to it which gives a big board presence when she lands which makes for a strong play post wrath or if being pressured. Otherwise I try to poke at my opponents while playing a value game. Said value game can kind of suck vs UG value decks or combo but.... this is mono white non combo so ultimately I feel like this works fairly well when you want a fun game of mono white control.
1 Bruna, the Fading Light
CREATURES (25)
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Wall of Omens
1 Bastion Protector
1 Resplendent Angel
1 Stonecloaker
1 Angel of Condemnation
1 Angel of Finality
1 Archangel of Tithes
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Golden Guardian
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Emeria Shepherd
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
ARTIFACT (17)
1 Expedition Map
1 Sol Ring
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Azor's Gateway
1 Crook of Condemnation
1 Dowsing Dagger
1 Endless Atlas
1 Mask of Memory
1 Mind Stone
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Conqueror's Galleon
1 Batterskull
1 Mind's Eye
1 The Immortal Sun
1 Land Tax
1 Dawn of Hope
1 Aura of Silence
1 Moat
1 True Conviction
INSTANT (5)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tithe
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Crush Contraband
1 Return to Dust
SORCERY (7)
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Survival Cache
1 Tragic Arrogance
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Austere Command
1 Hour of Revelation
PLANESWALKER (2)
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
LAND (38)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 High Market
1 Homeward Path
1 Kor Haven
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Opal Palace
1 Path of Ancestry
18 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Wasteland
1 Winding Canyons
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[Modern] Allies
DECK CHANGES:
So, I have hopes to get this list up and going soon. I have been very pleasantly surprised in what Gisela has been able to do and I think that having both of them as commanders is really kind of cool flavor. Eventually I would like to work Emrakul, the Promised End into this list as well (mostly for flavor reasons) but I think its also possible to maybe run Kozilek, the Great Distortion as well as just sort of a high end threat with card draw attached.
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[Modern] Allies
I have a couple of questions. I prepurchased the From the Vault: Transform and I plan on building either Gisela or Bruna. The point of running either as commander is not necessarily to consitently meld them (although doing so every so often would be a plus). However, I do want to build one in the hopes of building a monoW EDH (which to me is the hardest type of deck to build in commander).
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
What can I say.... I am a sucker for mono white.
Given my own experience right now I would go with Gisela personally but its the difference between one year of playing and a theoretical list so that kind of speaks for itself.
Tabernacle isn't going to hurt for having 2-3 creatures. Its primary purpose is to hinder token strategies and go wide strategies. It is true that I have a good number of creatures in my list but I don't have so many that I expect to have 5+ creatures in play at a time. It is probably more realistic to expect 2-3 on average. These effects are strong because you can drop them in before the token swarm or after it has been created and in either case its going to hit them hard. Some effects like Propaganda can be great but they are great so long as they remain living. Tabernacle often hits them with their pants down in that unless they have an answer and mana up to use it, its going to hit them before they can use it.
Because of the commander's rez I actually like the magus possibly more than the real copies of what they do for this list. Its kind of cool as usually I find it to be the other way around.
I was also kind of weighting some of the issues in how this land gets lands. I have Weathered Wayfarer / Land Tax / Tithe but then I also run Sword of the Animist / Dowsing Dagger / Burnished Hart / Solemn Simulacrum. I dont know if its going to be an issue or not but its on my radar.
DECK CHANGE:
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah, voltron Gisela would be great but it's as you say: with a creature-hate heavy build it'll be difficult. I also already kind of have a voltron deck with my Zurgo Helmsmasher; I like to avoid building decks with similar strategies whenever possible. But with buying the From the Vault: Transform I really have no excuse to not build Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, lol. Goldfishing on Cockatrice the deck seems to run really well. I'm gonna give it my own spin, though, while maintaining the speed. Gisela has to hit the table fast in order to smash face quickly. Best play I've had so far was T1 Plains into Sol Ring into Lightning Greaves. T2 Plains into Gisela. It was glorious.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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If you get a list together I would be interested to see it. I need to get this one suited up but I think its my next project right now.
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[Modern] Allies
Defintely! Once I polish it up a bit more and do some more testing on Cockatrice (against other people) I'll drop a list in your Gisela thread.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
DECK CHANGES:
I guess we will see how the deck does tonight. I think the move to pick up more grave hate should be a good move. Moving to 4 dedicated graveyard hate effects might seem a little extreme but given that I am a mono white control deck I think its better to have a little heavy than not enough given the issues with tutors and draw in a deck like this.
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[Modern] Allies
Looking over your list, I feel like you're going to run into color problems on a semi regular basis. You're sitting on 20 white sources in your lands, with a few cards that can function as white sources with some mana investment. Has 16 colorless lands and two more that don't produce mana been working out for you? I typically like close to half my deck dedicated to mana in more controlling lists, especially when you're running some pretty high CMC stuff.
Also, Crackdown is a great mono-W control card, especially when you're running a pair of Tabernacles to suppress swarms. You'll still have to eat one hit from bigger guys, and then they're effectively out of combat. Helps shut down occasional creatures with tap abilities too.
No problem, I just stumbled on your list and was like..... ***** we are doing like the same concept.
Lands - I haven't had any issues with it yet. I tend to play it a little greedy when it comes to manabases for mono colored decks because I think the fact that I jam them full of utility actually helps in a lot of ways that limiting to mono color can help overcome. Given how my commander is a little slower on the curve as well I worry a little less about my landbase here given I wont always have any specific card I am trying to curve early that needs colored mana. I did count something like 7 nonbasics that can also potentially give me colored mana or get me access to colored mana.
Crackdown - I think its a cool card its just not something I have found to be all that reliable in the metas I have played in. Sometimes I have to be worried about something turning sideways a single time (like a big token swarm). It is potentially nice vs beefy creatures but my commander is also a big beef stack with vigilance so to some degree I have a hard time with it because of that. Its possible that something like Crawlspace might be better given it limits / denies access to the first swing in some cases. Most of these effects are kind of situational based on what kind of deck / opponent we encounter though.
Overall, my list is still kind of rough as I have only put it through a handfull of games now. I figured out a few things I like and a few I don't as much.
After a few games of testing I will say its kind of fun and interesting to play. Its not as powerful as several of my other decks but its a lot of fun to play. Angel of Condemnation was really clutch in several games as it helped me stall off a fast start commander centric deck as well as later giving me defense vs a Xenagos, God of Revels deck.
In the few games I did have I felt like I needed to push for more draw and more relevant creatures to rez. I like some of the niche utility and hatebears but I need to try to narrow in on the ones that are relevant more often. I do have some high hopes for this set of changes. The deck is a lot of fun to play so far.
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DECK CHANGES:
Overall, I do have some concern as to how many targets I have to rez but at the same time I think that both of these were probably not going to be my main focus in rezing anyways. It does make me worry a little that I am taking two early game creatures and removing them for noncreatures but that is assuming I draw them early anyways.
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DECK CHANGE:
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Dowsing Dagger
Mask of Memory
Azor's Gateway
Magus of the Tabernacle
I've tossed up MoM here before, as it's good draw and a good way to set up reanimation. The dagger I'm not sure about on account of the plants, but I guess we have flying here so no biggie? Azor's Gateway, I guess when it transforms it could be tremendously good mana, but it's a high threshold to flip. MoT I really like for its nastiness, do you find it hard to hold up enough mana to keep your creatures in play? My main concern with my list is slowing or stopping opponents long enough to get my boardstate to a reasonable level - without Land Tax and a strong landbase I'm usually not flying out of the gates to a quick start, and so I try to run a reasonable amount of grief. I've considered adding Magus of the Tabernacle before, as well as Crackdown.
Curious to hear your thoughts, thanks ISB!
Hey no problem. I put them in my signature for myself and others to access them. I have only gotten to run it for maybe 6 to 8 games now. My LGS closed down right before Christmas so I have actually not gotten out to play since then as the next closest thing is an hour drive and they apparently only do games on Friday nights which to be honest by Friday night I do not really want to drive 2 hours for some magic lol.
Overall thought I have kind of felt like any time I still have the capability to cast Bruna or have her in play I am still doing fine and that is a lot of what fuels how I play it right now. One of my last games was against a Xenagos, God of Revels deck where he managed to Malignus hit me in a situation I was forced to chump block with Bruna. From there the game stretched on with me at very low life total for another several turns. In that time I ended up casting Bruna so many times that I managed to get her up to being like a 9 powered creature via Opal Palace. I managed to stay in that game in part because I had a Dowsing Dagger I had flipped and then I used Thespian Stage on the flipped land of it for a huge boost in my mana production. Angel of Condemnation has so far been potentially the MVP of this deck as I forced that same Xenagos deck to kill it twice and finally stop it via a Chaos Warp. I just love the flexibility that it brings to the deck being an angel that can really be strong on defense. I had one game where I deprived a Zirilan of the Claw deck of the use of his commander for like 3-4 turns via a T3 Angel of Condemnation as he ramped more than me but I went before him and ramped into the angel.
I should be able to play some games next week as I am going back to my old meta next week. The problem then becomes that I have sooooooooooooooo many decks that need to get played that its going to be hard to play them all. I did get to get a BUNCH of playtesting with this deck last time I did play which you can see I made a lot of changes at the end of December for this list based on how the deck was doing then. Ultimately as long as I can keep hitting land drops and have the ability to have my commander in play or cast my commander again I feel like I am doing well with this deck. I did end up moving my curve up a little and having a few more big angels after the last time I played this deck as often I just wanted bigger value in what I was rezing.
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Dowsing Dagger I can kind of see a spot for in my build. There's enough fliers at an early stage that I could connect and flip this pretty easily, and without most of the ramp you mentioned this would be a welcome addition. And I guess I don't need to be too threatened by 0/2 plants in most cases.
Mask of Memory will be added. I was already tossing it up, but it sounds like there's literally almost no downside here. Especially with my build which runs slightly more reanimation than yours.
Azor's Gateway - I don't know. Exiling is rough. I mean it's good early draw and that's great. It just seems a really high cost to pay.
Magus of the Tabernacle - this is a fair assessment. I like it, and I'm not afraid to spend mana, so long as this achieves what it sets out to do. And I agree regarding Crackdown and Meekstone - running a whole lot of Kismet and Thalia, Heretic Cathar style effects could make it worth running, but that's not what this deck needs to do. This isn't Derevi, we only need soft control. And tbh I'm pretty happy with Crawlspace.
Angel of Condemnation - I've gotta pick up a copy of this too. It could be lots of value in my build; obviously protection for Brisela, Voice of Nightmares or Bruna, the Fading Light is nice, but also being able to pump out exiles with Mangara of Corondor and keep ramping with Kor Cartographer and Knight of the White Orchid is serious value. I'm seriously thinking about The Immortal Sun to replace Caged Sun too. Stricly stronger effects with a planeswalker lock for my opponents? Yes please.
I'm much the same, I haven't played a lot recently, and this is one of those decks my wife won't face down. It's not fun being softlocked with an enormous flying eldrazi facing you down. It's been hard to get to my LGS too, so I'm looking forward to changing some bits and pieces out and heading through.
In every case you are throwing away the least relivant card to the matchup. I think its very strange to worry about exiling cards when you get so much more reach and you get to make so many more decisions in general. What if instead of exiling it, it just put a card on the bottom of your library? We are never going to toolbox / tutor for every card and the cards I am talking about exiling in each case are the cards that are the weakest cards in our hand. What if we draw moats / tabernacle / defensive cards vs a planeswalker deck? In that case we are sitting on some awkward cards. What if we have a hand of wraths but have control of the board? What if we find spot removal vs some sort of wide swarm token deck? In almost every case of commander we have cards that can and will come up in situations that make them less ideal. That is not to say that something like Swords to Plowshares is a bad card or that we would never want to include wrath effects in our decks but there will be times that it is not what you need. You can also chain draw lands at times where you really need action.
The point I am getting at is that it is far less relevant that we are exiling cards because we get to pick and choose our best cards for any situation and remove the worst card. Its not like I am going to be ditching Moats and Tabernacles as I face down a token deck. We will ultimately have cards that are stronger or weaker depending upon the decks we face and the strength of a card like Azor's Gateway is that it lets us cheaply move our hand to whatever we need in that situation.
Now, all of that said.... I have not yet played Azor's Gateway. I am more referring to that I think that the reaction that exiling cards is bad is a wrong mentality. This card functions in such a way that it ALWAYS gives you the best hand. If it forced you to exile a card and then draw a card it would be a completely different story but with the exile after the draw your hand should remain the same or improve every time.
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The tradeoff is very early draw in a better context than Mind Stone, being as it's repeatable. Mono white can't afford to turn down that sort of advantage, and considering I don't have access to some of the stronger, more epxensive effects that ramp or draw like Mind's Eye or Land Tac, I guess I shouldn't turn it down out of hand. The eventuall payoff could be well worth it, too. It remains to be seen how easily it'll transform, but that's a cherry on top I guess.
All this being said, I still think I'll wait to hear reports on how well it fares - I don't expect it to be barnstormingly amazing, but I won't completely dismiss the idea of adding it.
Of these offhand.... Lyra Dawnbriger seems really good and I think Karn, Scion of Urza may be potential. Baird, Steward of Argive gets me thinking again if I need to revisit the idea of Archangel of Tithes but I am a little less certain and or in a hurry for that.
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I'll definitely be looking to pick this up for my build.
I'm less convinced that there's a place for this, but lifelink keeps you...well, alive. To my mind you either add this or Blackblade Reforged, depending on whether your game plan is to alpha strike, or swing for commander damage. There's no reason not to have an option to do either considering the enormity of Brisela, but personally I'm only really interested in allowing so many slots for creature pumps.
Overall this set has some good food for thought. Karn is a very interesting proposition to me but ultimately I think its going to be several turns before it really generates much. I watched someone at the pre release play one and flip two lands. Essentially anytime you flip a land you are probably getting that and not the juicy and interesting card next to it. My issue is that it seems like AT LEAST a few turns before he pays for himself and he is so fragile and his upfront value probably sucks. Given his high price tag and what I have seen so far from him in formats where he should be far better I have reasons to be concerned about his performance for commander. Blackblade Reforged is the one card so far that I feel like I don't really know where I stand right now. For the time being I am going to pass on it but its something I think I could come back to.
DECK CHANGES:
Lyra seems like a no brainer given I had baneslayer in for testing. I think the vehicle is a little more questionable but I also think the monarch giant was questionable. I am willing to give it a shot at least and see if it works out for me.
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And since this deck is fairly tribal, I like Heirloom Blade. It’s better than Skullclamp in this deck because the +3/+1 makes your creatures more relevant in combat. 1 mana to equip for those stats added to a creature is very good, and it replaces itself if your creature dies. Beyond that it’s card advantage. And even though it’s not as good on your general, it’s good on the creature she gets back. I also suggest Sword of Light and Shadow for the same reasons. I do understand, however, that your Bruna build is more on the control side, so that might shift the focus too much to aggro.
Teferi’s Protection is good to protect your permanents. And you run enough board wipes that you can use it proactively to blow up everything except your stuff. I like it better in control decks than aggro decks, because control decks are more likely to be able to handle the thing they had to use Teferi’s Protection for.
Finally, do you ever have mana issues? You seem to be cutting it close for a 7 mana general.
I very much like your build though. My Bruna deck is a bit more aggro focused. It’s fun, but seeing your deck makes me think control is the way to go. By the way, I’m stealing your Magus of the Tabernacle. I forgot he existed.
I am hesitant to push for more graveyard abuse given that I already have some issues sometimes getting anything to rez. Rez effects are very dependant on opponents to have and use their removal on you as well as for you to have drawn things worth destroying as well. I played a game this last week where I literally landed Sun Titan + Archangel of Thune and I literally had no graveyard for like.... the rest of that game. I closed out the game and I only cast my commander on the second to last turn.
This isn't to say that graveyard rez effects are not good, I am more saying that sometimes I don't have the draw to push enough resources to always have extra things. Rez is a lot stronger when you get filter effects as well. I played a game yesterday with a friend 1v1 and I rode Bazaar of Baghdad + Emeria Shepherd to some really crazy value.
Random side note, I have managed to see Twilight Shepherd several times now and..... it is really really awful. I just never really want to draw or play it. I was hoping that I would kind of like it for wrath insurance but so far... it has kind of sucked. I am going to keep jamming it for now but I have not liked it so far. There just are not that many big angels that I have wanted thus far.
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You’re right about Sword of Light and Shadow. Even in my build with more creatures it sometimes misses triggers. About Heirloom Blade, you missed that it gives +3/+1 for 1 mana. This makes any angel an actual threat. Angels are usually not very big, but the blade gives them teeth. The fact that it replaces itself is good too, but wasn’t the full point.
I find it surprising that you usually have the most mana. No green players? In my group, white, red, and blue usually don’t have more mana than green. I always feel like I’m barely keeping up in the early game. I played a 5cc creature today on turn 5. One guy already had Avenger of Zendikar out. Things turn in my favor if I can board wipe and catch back up, but sometimes I simply don’t draw one. There’s no way white can compete in terms of mana.
Very well said about Teferi’s Protection.
I agree about Twilight Shepherd. Situationally, she can be good, but rarely seems to work the way I imagine she will. I’m cutting mine for Adarkar Valkyrie.
I feel the same way about Shepherd. It's suboptimal and I find myself not ever wanting to cast it. I think it's problem is that, given it doesn't have flash, you can't cast it into a sweeper. Which means in order to get its effect you need to sac a whole ton or swing into an unfavourable situation. I can't see anyone allowing that with it already on the field, which makes its persist a little redundant. Not only that, the 3WWW is a bit rough.
I'm on the hunt for an alternative for it myself. Eventually (budget allowing), I will switch it out. I'd like to add Lyra Dawnbringer, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Recruiter of the Guard, so either of these could be an easy replacement.