I haven't really looked at any of the flip cards aside from Growing Rites and Search for Azcanta, so I didn't even realize what that card did. That's not a bad idea at all actually. In addition, I like Goblin Bombardment not only as a wincon, but also a way to sacrifice the Academy Rector to start the combo turn.
Decided to easy back on speed for getting potential protection up. A lot of games if opponents are not tapping out, it has to become your game plan to setup protection.
I've added Basalt Monolith, as it really does make a difference to casting a mana doubler with extra untapped land. Much better able you to go off in a single turn. Also produces infinite colorless mana with Mana Reflection. Added
There have been a few things I've been wanting to try out. One thing about the deck is that there are not a lot of permanents you commit to the board, other than really the mana doublers. Games where you are just playing out lands and there is no actual pressure on you, can often be to your advantage. The other thing is "are you the first to try and combo?". Quite often the first person to try and go off, is the first to be stopped. I've found myself with the cards in hand, but wary of just trying to play into untapped opponents mana. With this in mind having a controlling element can really work when opponents spend the first 5 turns building up their boards, where you are basically just looking to get extra lands into play. So by adding some board wipes, you can really get ahead, and potentially with Zacama, Primal Calamity abilities stay on-top of what opponents can do.
The idea behind using these lands instead that you have a longer setup, but can potentially have a natural doubler mana base.
Rather than sprinting to the combo, you're waiting it out a bit more, not committing permanents, and hopefully setting up a mana base that is more naturally setup for Zacama. The board wipes make sure you get firm card advantage.
These lands are slow. By adding Burgeoning, you can really negate the disadvantage initially by these lands. Also Azusa, Lost but Seeking, can accelerate mana bases with these type of lands.
This deck configuration has proven to be very good. The ability to board wipe and no real disadvantage to yourself, is a tempo which can take advantage of, especially if you know opponents probably have an answer for what you want to do.
For opponents decks that are mainly instants and sorceries, it is weaker, as they just tend to play lands, and counterspell your most relevant spells. If you board wipe and they lost very little, you've given them a overall advantage compared to the rest of the players. I've added Ricochet Trap as a further way to navigate the inevitable counterspell.
I'm not changing the primer to this configuration yet, I just wanted to really test the concepts.
I appreciate all the work on this deck. This is exactly what I was envisioning when thinking about how to run Zacama!
With the changes you suggested yesterday it might be worth running amulet of vigor which also helps our ramp spells. Also, Crucible of worlds and Ramunap Excavator would fit nicely. Though I get the plan is to have less permanents committed to the board.
To me the Karoo lands are a bit to much risk with not enough reward as the require returning an untapped land of a specific type to your hand and then enter the battle tapped themselves.
The Ravnica lands seem good as they allow you to return any land and it can be tapped.
I am curious how having just 1 wincon in the deck has worked out? It seems like we could add in 1 or 2 more for additional consistence.
I appreciate all the work on this deck. This is exactly what I was envisioning when thinking about how to run Zacama!
With the changes you suggested yesterday it might be worth running amulet of vigor which also helps our ramp spells. Also, Crucible of worlds and Ramunap Excavator would fit nicely. Though I get the plan is to have less permanents committed to the board.
To me the Karoo lands are a bit to much risk with not enough reward as the require returning an untapped land of a specific type to your hand and then enter the battle tapped themselves.
The Ravnica lands seem good as they allow you to return any land and it can be tapped.
I am curious how having just 1 wincon in the deck has worked out? It seems like we could add in 1 or 2 more for additional consistence.
Thanks again for your work on this deck!
Thanks, I'm really trying to get the best version of this deck that is possible. So I've literally just been trying lots of ideas and all of them have advantages and weaknesses to metas/decks, but starting to hone in on something that can do well given whoever you play.
With the Karoo type lands, they are really slow, so you run the risk of just getting out comboed turn wise if you play it too "safe". So I'm just going to get some game reps to try and figure out if it's actually the correct type of land base. It very well might just be asking too much. If it was just the Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary, Ancient Tomb, then it's probably correct to go back to running Vernal Bloom and Caged Sun, with a more Forest base. Keeper of Progenitus is also worse in the Karoo type lands.
I did look to slot in Amulet of Vigor, but decided not enough value to warrant. Don't get me wrong, there will be games where if you had it you'd probably be able to go off a turn earlier (which might be the difference between winning and losing), but slots are tiiiiiiiight.
As far as wins-cons 1 is perfect. I haven't been Sadistic Sacrament type thing yet. Rolling Thunder has actually proven to just be a great early card to play to remove creatures, and Past in Flames can be used when it's time to use it as a finisher. Now even if your literally game ending cards are removed, you still have a thousand mana at your disposal, are able to remove basically all non-land permanents at instant speed, for the rest of the game, and keep a hand like Silence, Pyroblast, Oblation, Chaos Warp, Lapse of Certainty, Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection. It pretty impossible for your opponents to fight through.
Zacama, Primal Calamity, specifically needs to be "cast" in order to get the untap land effect, so will not work with Eldrazi Displacer. But Eldrazi Displacer is an incredible card, I look to put it into a lot of builds, but getting colorless sources is actually harder than you think. If I could consistently cast Warping Wail I'd play it in this deck.
I have some folks I play with that pack graveyard hate and one who runs blightsteel colossus in every deck. I wouldn't want to add more cards that could be dead draws but, I think having more then 1 instant win con makes me more comfortable.
If you were going to add another what would it be?
Also, with adding the sweepers, Academy Rector seems like it could find its way back into the deck. What do you think?
I have some folks I play with that pack graveyard hate and one who runs blightsteel colossus in every deck. I wouldn't want to add more cards that could be dead draws but, I think having more then 1 instant win con makes me more comfortable.
If you were going to add another what would it be?
Also, with adding the sweepers, Academy Rector seems like it could find its way back into the deck. What do you think?
I think the advantage of this deck is that you can get your victory conditions contained in lands, which kind of come almost as a free slot. Not entirely true but drawing lands early is certainly better than drawing straight up "only finishers".
If you pack these lands then I think its correct to run Temur Sabertooth again as you can win with just a mana threshold. It might also be correct to run Hour of Promise as another land accelerant that can also get you your victory conditions.
I do win games off the back of Oath of Druids. It comes up about every 4-5th game and I've been "diluting" the creature hits by adding back Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Dragonlord Dromoka/Grand Abolisher. Now not to say that hitting these off Oath of Druids are terrible, my last game the first hit was Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Life from the Loam was milled, so I was able to put enough extra lands into play to overwhelm opponents with mana. But I am a little worried about Academy Rector being another Oath of Druids hit, and not getting value straight away. Otherwise I think obviously its a great card in this deck. But you're right the board wipes do make this better and there is a scenario where you have Academy Rector in play and then just cast out Zacama and you might have to wait, but you can shoot Academy Rector with Zacama to get you your mana doubler. That is actually a solid game plan.
I love that path to victory! Major style points for sure.
I'm honestly surprised that there are not more/better ways to continually return creatures to your hand. I figured there would be at least a land that allows us to do that but, Karakas has to be banned...
The great part about a number of these cards is that even if we do get hit with a jester's cap effect, the opponent will likely not even know what they are looking to remove.
I'll change the primer deck list now, but here is the official changes I've made.
The Karoo lands did turn out to be actually horrible, I mulled to oblivion one game because these were in my opening hands and unplaybale. Cool, had to try. I've left in Ancient Tomb, Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary, I think that that these are just good enough.
The only thing is that I have a group which plays Food Chain Tazri and Thrasios/Tyma Bomberman/Doomsday, and other storm decks that pack Timetwister, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, etc. So removing speed for board wipes in that meta is pretty risky, as if your game plan was to board wipe and you simply get a new hand every other turn, you want to keep cards like Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth. So depends on the tiers of decks you come up against.
With a play group like that I can see how Burgeoning would be an all star.
Not to surprised about the Karoo lands as the draw back is just that big. The only way I can see them being OK is with Blood SunBlood Moon or maybe Amulet of Vigor.
High Market seems like a card that we want to give us a way to sac Zacama with so few in the deck. Maybe I'm wrong but, I imagine our combo turn, we want to cast Zacama a few times netting us a bunch of mana, cast some draw card effects, cast more doublers, cast zacama more and just win?
With a play group like that I can see how Burgeoning would be an all star.
Not to surprised about the Karoo lands as the draw back is just that big. The only way I can see them being OK is with Blood SunBlood Moon or maybe Amulet of Vigor.
High Market seems like a card that we want to give us a way to sac Zacama with so few in the deck. Maybe I'm wrong but, I imagine our combo turn, we want to cast Zacama a few times netting us a bunch of mana, cast some draw card effects, cast more doublers, cast zacama more and just win?
I removed Replenish because it just wasn't proactive enough. It's so reliant on the Oath of Druids and now that I have 3 extra creatures in the deck post Oath of Druids inclusion, it does on average lessen the amount of cards that go to graveyard. Now that I have Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection, its more likely that you can protect your board as well. Yeah, just spent too many games in my hand not doing work. Same reason I took out Splendid Reclamation, needs a very specific game to be good. Sure you can get games where you've done a couple of fetch lands and can cast it turn 3 or 4 for some value, but can often be sitting in your hand for very little value.
High Market is any interesting one. The thing is that the games really come down to whether you get a big draw card once you have a mana doubler and are able to cast Zacama. High Market only allows you to produce more mana, and often I've found that if that's all that is happening, then I usually have enough mana to remove like 3 of the biggest threats. So although you could gain more mana to remove more stuff, it just better to navigate potential threats (play well), rather than showing off removing everything. Same reason I removed Food Chain. I'm just aware of games where if it was a colored source land, would be more efficient with Vernal Bloom, Keeper of Progenitus or Caged Sun. I have played games where the math on not getting extra mana from High Market, has meant waiting an extra turn to combo. That first time you cast Zacama, often comes down to having exactly enough.
I might not run Oath in my list for the reason's you mentioned and because I'm afraid of my opponents abusing it before I can, then destroying it. I am thinking of running a few more toolbox creatures along with Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling.
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
I might not run Oath in my list for the reason's you mentioned and because I'm afraid of my opponents abusing it before I can, then destroying it. I am thinking of running a few more toolbox creatures along with Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling.
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
The game plan is still very much to combo, the grind part just comes up when you don't draw the right cards or get disrupted on the combo. This is the cool thing about this deck, is that even if you don't have a draw card, you have this backup plan of just casting Zacama out and controlling the board enough to delay the game.
Prismatic Omen sounds like a great plan if you intend to run High Market, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. It fixes mana in general as well. Won't be needed in a lot of games, but worth giving a go. Remember to really note down games where it was good and when it was bad. Trial and error is the only way you'll know.
If Omen turn's out well then Celestial Dawn could be interested as well. That even allows us to cheat in tap lands, then destroy it with Zacama and profit. Naming white for caged sun and just pray no one cast Iona lol.
In your current iteration, how do you get Zacama into the command zone to cast him multiple times on the combo turn? I see there are a few draw effects that require him to be sacrificed but, I'm guessing it is not that common to be able to chain those effects over and over. Shooting himself seems bad.
If Omen turn's out well then Celestial Dawn could be interested as well. That even allows us to cheat in tap lands, then destroy it with Zacama and profit. Naming white for caged sun and just pray no one cast Iona lol.
In your current iteration, how do you get Zacama into the command zone to cast him multiple times on the combo turn? I see there are a few draw effects that require him to be sacrificed but, I'm guessing it is not that common to be able to chain those effects over and over. Shooting himself seems bad.
I think Celestial Dawn has the down side that Vernal Bloom gets negated and if you want to cast it post Caged Sun (naming green which is correct) it would be bad. Fixing for colors in your hand isn't too much of a high priority even if you are running 3 colorless lands. It's the mana doubling which is important.
I should really change the primer a bit, deck style and experience have reevaluated game style a little bit. The thing is that you are not 100% to completely combo off in a turn. But that's OK. Sometimes you do the big draw and all you get is a lot of land accelerates and lands. But drawing 9 cards with all your mana available, is really going to set you up. It might be that your progression was getting an extra 3 lands into play with Zacama at the ready and picks off some threats. But I feel like at least 60% of the time, I combo off the first time I try, probably higher. I don't have an exact number, I do love stats, so going forward I think I'll record number of games where it was a combo game from the first try, or a control game, or I just get my arse beat and why.
[edit]
To clarify what I'm saying is that High Market is only really good if you have drawn 1 of these specific cards: Wheel of Fortune, Soul's Majesty, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Memory Jar, Reforge the Soul, Rishkar's Expertise, Genesis Wave and also not drawn Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall, because you can use those instead to recast Zacama. What I find is that after the first or second big draw I have the setup where I can keep recasting Zacama. I have even shot itself 3 times (via the 3 damage to target creature) at a cost of 9 mana to generate more, much more. So I find naturally through just drawing so many cards that you get to a state where you can manage mana and draw to a single turn win.
So I'm not saying that High Market isn't a good card in this deck, it has won me a couple of games, but it's also stalled a few more. So it's really useful to be able not take bias on the games it was good and override the other games where it just ended up being a bit awkward. You'll see pros make good calls like that when sideboard. Even if a card in the first game got them to victory they are able to make the correct call that it isn't as strong as some other options in their sideboard.
I agree that it would be bad to play both Celestial Dawn and Vernal Bloom. If Celestial proved worthy of a spot it would likely be over Vernal Bloom which again could be a mistake. Celestial however does make Keeper of Progenitus better though as now all your lands are plains.
What I would love to hear is more about what the combo turn looks like because right now it seems to be very reliant on the of the 3 cards you mentioned Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall. If we don't draw one of the 3, is it still possible to create enough mana to win?
I agree that it would be bad to play both Celestial Dawn and Vernal Bloom. If Celestial proved worthy of a spot it would likely be over Vernal Bloom which again could be a mistake. Celestial however does make Keeper of Progenitus better though as now all your lands are plains.
What I would love to hear is more about what the combo turn looks like because right now it seems to be very reliant on the of the 3 cards you mentioned Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall. If we don't draw one of the 3, is it still possible to create enough mana to win?
I'll try and give an example of a turn where if High Market was in play or was able to put it into play it would be better, but not necessarily key to still being able to generate enough mana to combo off.
Setting up a turn for 2 mana doublers is a frequent occurrence. What you are looking to do when you have 2 mana doublers, is setup so that you are producing 3 mana (or more) per land and have the 3 lands untapped to cast Zacama. So lets say you have 6 lands in play, because you cast your mana doublers off Grim Monolith, etc. You cast Zacama and now have 18 mana available. You cast some land accelerate cards like Skyshroud Claim and Nature's Lore. You'll actually gain mana off them with 2 mana doublers, so have 21 mana. So your big draw spell is Garruk, Primal Hunter.
You're down to 16 mana and best case scenario you get Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall.
Medium case scenario you get another big draw, without a sacrifice again. On avg say 5 to cast. So if you do that then you are only left with 11 mana. What I find that after a second draw 9 card (18 cards in total so far), you'll probably have the ability to cast out another mana doubler, use your cheap artifacts Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, to be able to play them without tapping too much land. Enlightened Tutor and Sterling Groove do provide an exact route to what you want. You'll probably have access to at least one of these, Exploration, Summer Bloom or Azura, Lost but Seeking, plus probably at least another sorcery lands into play. So lets say you have 11 lands in play at the end of this sequence, with 3 mana doublers. You probably gain like another 3-6 mana off each land. You're now at something like a potential 30 mana, which is simply enough to keep comboing.
Worst cast scenario, is that you don't have another big draw card. It goes as I said you make threat assessments and choose to remove a select number of permanents.
I might not run Oath in my list for the reason's you mentioned and because I'm afraid of my opponents abusing it before I can, then destroying it. I am thinking of running a few more toolbox creatures along with Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling.
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
I have not gone the Oath route either. I've kept a much more intensive creature package along with the best turn one mana dorks. The dorks speed the deck up a turn and it has definitely been noticeable. Arbor Elf pulls the most weight, and does an absolute ton of work with mana doublers/Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth.
This creature package let's me keep every creature tutor available which means even when you brick on a card draw spell, the tutor package can typically snag the last piece to keep going off. If not that turn, then you nuke the board with Zacama and set up for the following turn. The deck is typically fast enough to knock any MLD deck off balance so that casting an MLD spell will not put them ahead at all.
Shivan Gorge is the only infinite win condition since it's so resilient in a land. I am still trying to find a slot for Vance's Blasting Cannons, since card advantage plus win condition in one card sounds great on paper. I just haven't gotten to test it yet.
I have not gone the Oath route either. I've kept a much more intensive creature package along with the best turn one mana dorks. The dorks speed the deck up a turn and it has definitely been noticeable. Arbor Elf pulls the most weight, and does an absolute ton of work with mana doublers/Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth.
This creature package let's me keep every creature tutor available which means even when you brick on a card draw spell, the tutor package can typically snag the last piece to keep going off. If not that turn, then you nuke the board with Zacama and set up for the following turn. The deck is typically fast enough to knock any MLD deck off balance so that casting an MLD spell will not put them ahead at all.
Shivan Gorge is the only infinite win condition since it's so resilient in a land. I am still trying to find a slot for Vance's Blasting Cannons, since card advantage plus win condition in one card sounds great on paper. I just haven't gotten to test it yet.
So the configuration I've been trying regarding the post above, I think is the best, so I've made the official changes to the primer. The changes are as follows:
Essentially removing the graveyard resource cards and anything that sort of leaned or made advantage of it. Also the board wipes as well, it's just better to be pro-active with cards.
I've added Academy Rector as it does everything you want. If you use it with Eldritch Evolution you can really set yourself for the win. Either 2x mana doublers or a mana doubler and Greater Good.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've added Basalt Monolith, as it really does make a difference to casting a mana doubler with extra untapped land. Much better able you to go off in a single turn. Also produces infinite colorless mana with Mana Reflection.
Added
Removed
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've also really wanted to test lands that tap for 2 mana: Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary, Jungle Basin, Karoo, Dormant Volcano.
Vernal Bloom and Caged Sun become much worse, so these need to be removed.
The idea behind using these lands instead that you have a longer setup, but can potentially have a natural doubler mana base.
Rather than sprinting to the combo, you're waiting it out a bit more, not committing permanents, and hopefully setting up a mana base that is more naturally setup for Zacama. The board wipes make sure you get firm card advantage.
These lands are slow. By adding Burgeoning, you can really negate the disadvantage initially by these lands. Also Azusa, Lost but Seeking, can accelerate mana bases with these type of lands.
The deck is weaker to land destruction, so by adding Life from the Loam you can bounce back, and with Burgeoning, Exploration and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, you can get right back into the game.
This deck configuration has proven to be very good. The ability to board wipe and no real disadvantage to yourself, is a tempo which can take advantage of, especially if you know opponents probably have an answer for what you want to do.
With a slower tempo in mind, bringing in Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection will help you keep your board and superb against land destruction.
For opponents decks that are mainly instants and sorceries, it is weaker, as they just tend to play lands, and counterspell your most relevant spells. If you board wipe and they lost very little, you've given them a overall advantage compared to the rest of the players. I've added Ricochet Trap as a further way to navigate the inevitable counterspell.
I'm not changing the primer to this configuration yet, I just wanted to really test the concepts.
Storm Control Configuration
Added
- Oblivion Stone
- Wrath of God
- Austere Command
- Akroma's Vengeance
- Ricochet Trap
- Life from the Loam
- Burgeoning
- Azusa, Lost but Seeking
- Heroic Intervention
- Teferi's Protection
- Ancient Tomb
- Boros Garrison
- Gruul Turf
- Selesnya Sanctuary
- Jungle Basin
- Karoo
- Dormant Volcano
RemovedNiv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
With the changes you suggested yesterday it might be worth running amulet of vigor which also helps our ramp spells. Also, Crucible of worlds and Ramunap Excavator would fit nicely. Though I get the plan is to have less permanents committed to the board.
To me the Karoo lands are a bit to much risk with not enough reward as the require returning an untapped land of a specific type to your hand and then enter the battle tapped themselves.
The Ravnica lands seem good as they allow you to return any land and it can be tapped.
I am curious how having just 1 wincon in the deck has worked out? It seems like we could add in 1 or 2 more for additional consistence.
Thanks again for your work on this deck!
With the Karoo type lands, they are really slow, so you run the risk of just getting out comboed turn wise if you play it too "safe". So I'm just going to get some game reps to try and figure out if it's actually the correct type of land base. It very well might just be asking too much. If it was just the Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary, Ancient Tomb, then it's probably correct to go back to running Vernal Bloom and Caged Sun, with a more Forest base. Keeper of Progenitus is also worse in the Karoo type lands.
I did look to slot in Amulet of Vigor, but decided not enough value to warrant. Don't get me wrong, there will be games where if you had it you'd probably be able to go off a turn earlier (which might be the difference between winning and losing), but slots are tiiiiiiiight.
As far as wins-cons 1 is perfect. I haven't been Sadistic Sacrament type thing yet. Rolling Thunder has actually proven to just be a great early card to play to remove creatures, and Past in Flames can be used when it's time to use it as a finisher. Now even if your literally game ending cards are removed, you still have a thousand mana at your disposal, are able to remove basically all non-land permanents at instant speed, for the rest of the game, and keep a hand like Silence, Pyroblast, Oblation, Chaos Warp, Lapse of Certainty, Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection. It pretty impossible for your opponents to fight through.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you were going to add another what would it be?
Also, with adding the sweepers, Academy Rector seems like it could find its way back into the deck. What do you think?
Shivan Gorge, Vance's Blasting Cannons // Spitfire Bastion
With Mistveil Plains you can use Geier Reach Sanitarium or Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, to make opponents draw decks and lose, and because your have cards like Silence, City of Solitude, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Abolisher, you can safely do this as opponents can't react. You can use Zacama abilities to remove one of your permanents, so that you always have a card to put back with Mistveil Plains. Major style points for this victory conditions right?
If you pack these lands then I think its correct to run Temur Sabertooth again as you can win with just a mana threshold. It might also be correct to run Hour of Promise as another land accelerant that can also get you your victory conditions.
I do win games off the back of Oath of Druids. It comes up about every 4-5th game and I've been "diluting" the creature hits by adding back Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Dragonlord Dromoka/Grand Abolisher. Now not to say that hitting these off Oath of Druids are terrible, my last game the first hit was Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Life from the Loam was milled, so I was able to put enough extra lands into play to overwhelm opponents with mana. But I am a little worried about Academy Rector being another Oath of Druids hit, and not getting value straight away. Otherwise I think obviously its a great card in this deck. But you're right the board wipes do make this better and there is a scenario where you have Academy Rector in play and then just cast out Zacama and you might have to wait, but you can shoot Academy Rector with Zacama to get you your mana doubler. That is actually a solid game plan.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I'm honestly surprised that there are not more/better ways to continually return creatures to your hand. I figured there would be at least a land that allows us to do that but, Karakas has to be banned...
I think my version will include the lands you mentioned, Vance's Blasting Cannons (which seems amazing with Enlightened Tutor effects anyway) and Temur Sabertooth.
The great part about a number of these cards is that even if we do get hit with a jester's cap effect, the opponent will likely not even know what they are looking to remove.
Curious, what does your 99 look like now?
The Karoo lands did turn out to be actually horrible, I mulled to oblivion one game because these were in my opening hands and unplaybale. Cool, had to try. I've left in Ancient Tomb, Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary, I think that that these are just good enough.
Added
- Oblivion Stone
- Austere Command
- Akroma's Vengeance
- Ricochet Trap
- Life from the Loam
- Burgeoning
- Azusa, Lost but Seeking
- Heroic Intervention
- Teferi's Protection
- Ancient Tomb
- Boros Garrison
- Gruul Turf
- Selesnya Sanctuary
- Cathartic Reunion
RemovedThe only thing is that I have a group which plays Food Chain Tazri and Thrasios/Tyma Bomberman/Doomsday, and other storm decks that pack Timetwister, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, etc. So removing speed for board wipes in that meta is pretty risky, as if your game plan was to board wipe and you simply get a new hand every other turn, you want to keep cards like Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth. So depends on the tiers of decks you come up against.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Not to surprised about the Karoo lands as the draw back is just that big. The only way I can see them being OK is with Blood Sun Blood Moon or maybe Amulet of Vigor.
I'm curious why you decided to remove replenish?
High Market seems like a card that we want to give us a way to sac Zacama with so few in the deck. Maybe I'm wrong but, I imagine our combo turn, we want to cast Zacama a few times netting us a bunch of mana, cast some draw card effects, cast more doublers, cast zacama more and just win?
High Market is any interesting one. The thing is that the games really come down to whether you get a big draw card once you have a mana doubler and are able to cast Zacama. High Market only allows you to produce more mana, and often I've found that if that's all that is happening, then I usually have enough mana to remove like 3 of the biggest threats. So although you could gain more mana to remove more stuff, it just better to navigate potential threats (play well), rather than showing off removing everything. Same reason I removed Food Chain. I'm just aware of games where if it was a colored source land, would be more efficient with Vernal Bloom, Keeper of Progenitus or Caged Sun. I have played games where the math on not getting extra mana from High Market, has meant waiting an extra turn to combo. That first time you cast Zacama, often comes down to having exactly enough.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
Prismatic Omen sounds like a great plan if you intend to run High Market, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. It fixes mana in general as well. Won't be needed in a lot of games, but worth giving a go. Remember to really note down games where it was good and when it was bad. Trial and error is the only way you'll know.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
In your current iteration, how do you get Zacama into the command zone to cast him multiple times on the combo turn? I see there are a few draw effects that require him to be sacrificed but, I'm guessing it is not that common to be able to chain those effects over and over. Shooting himself seems bad.
I should really change the primer a bit, deck style and experience have reevaluated game style a little bit. The thing is that you are not 100% to completely combo off in a turn. But that's OK. Sometimes you do the big draw and all you get is a lot of land accelerates and lands. But drawing 9 cards with all your mana available, is really going to set you up. It might be that your progression was getting an extra 3 lands into play with Zacama at the ready and picks off some threats. But I feel like at least 60% of the time, I combo off the first time I try, probably higher. I don't have an exact number, I do love stats, so going forward I think I'll record number of games where it was a combo game from the first try, or a control game, or I just get my arse beat and why.
[edit]
To clarify what I'm saying is that High Market is only really good if you have drawn 1 of these specific cards: Wheel of Fortune, Soul's Majesty, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Memory Jar, Reforge the Soul, Rishkar's Expertise, Genesis Wave and also not drawn Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall, because you can use those instead to recast Zacama. What I find is that after the first or second big draw I have the setup where I can keep recasting Zacama. I have even shot itself 3 times (via the 3 damage to target creature) at a cost of 9 mana to generate more, much more. So I find naturally through just drawing so many cards that you get to a state where you can manage mana and draw to a single turn win.
So I'm not saying that High Market isn't a good card in this deck, it has won me a couple of games, but it's also stalled a few more. So it's really useful to be able not take bias on the games it was good and override the other games where it just ended up being a bit awkward. You'll see pros make good calls like that when sideboard. Even if a card in the first game got them to victory they are able to make the correct call that it isn't as strong as some other options in their sideboard.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What I would love to hear is more about what the combo turn looks like because right now it seems to be very reliant on the of the 3 cards you mentioned Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall. If we don't draw one of the 3, is it still possible to create enough mana to win?
Setting up a turn for 2 mana doublers is a frequent occurrence. What you are looking to do when you have 2 mana doublers, is setup so that you are producing 3 mana (or more) per land and have the 3 lands untapped to cast Zacama. So lets say you have 6 lands in play, because you cast your mana doublers off Grim Monolith, etc. You cast Zacama and now have 18 mana available. You cast some land accelerate cards like Skyshroud Claim and Nature's Lore. You'll actually gain mana off them with 2 mana doublers, so have 21 mana. So your big draw spell is Garruk, Primal Hunter.
You're down to 16 mana and best case scenario you get Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall.
Medium case scenario you get another big draw, without a sacrifice again. On avg say 5 to cast. So if you do that then you are only left with 11 mana. What I find that after a second draw 9 card (18 cards in total so far), you'll probably have the ability to cast out another mana doubler, use your cheap artifacts Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, to be able to play them without tapping too much land. Enlightened Tutor and Sterling Groove do provide an exact route to what you want. You'll probably have access to at least one of these, Exploration, Summer Bloom or Azura, Lost but Seeking, plus probably at least another sorcery lands into play. So lets say you have 11 lands in play at the end of this sequence, with 3 mana doublers. You probably gain like another 3-6 mana off each land. You're now at something like a potential 30 mana, which is simply enough to keep comboing.
Worst cast scenario, is that you don't have another big draw card. It goes as I said you make threat assessments and choose to remove a select number of permanents.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I have not gone the Oath route either. I've kept a much more intensive creature package along with the best turn one mana dorks. The dorks speed the deck up a turn and it has definitely been noticeable. Arbor Elf pulls the most weight, and does an absolute ton of work with mana doublers/Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth.
This creature package let's me keep every creature tutor available which means even when you brick on a card draw spell, the tutor package can typically snag the last piece to keep going off. If not that turn, then you nuke the board with Zacama and set up for the following turn. The deck is typically fast enough to knock any MLD deck off balance so that casting an MLD spell will not put them ahead at all.
I have Green Sun's Zenith, Eladamri's Call, Summoner's Pact, Survival of the Fittest, and Fauna Shaman. The last pieces of creature tutors that I have added that have been all-stars are Eldritch Evolution and Natural Order. They act as a sacrifice outlet for Zacama and can snag any creature in the deck when sacrificing the commander. At six lands and a mana doubler, these tutors can get Temur Sabertooth and get infinite mana while also serving the toolbox role when needed. While Survival of the Fittest is not at it's strongest, Sabertooth can bounce a random dork/Zacama while comboing to go snag the last piece you would need ie Selvala, Heart of the Wilds.
Shivan Gorge is the only infinite win condition since it's so resilient in a land. I am still trying to find a slot for Vance's Blasting Cannons, since card advantage plus win condition in one card sounds great on paper. I just haven't gotten to test it yet.
Ever since I started brewing the deck, I started at 20 creatures, and I've been testing moving away from a creature base ever since.
I'm very keen to try out the Natural Order and Eldritch Evolution, but not going to try and get a creature threshold that allows Survival of Fittest and Fauna Shaman to be consistent, so will be leaving them out.
The configuration for trying this out will be very similar deck content I've had in the past:
Added
Removed
Tormenting Voice and Cathartic Reunion are still great cards, but with removing Mizzix's Mastery the upside of discarding certain cards makes them not quite as good and there are 4 potential draw cards in Natural Order, Eldritch Evolution, Regal Force, Sandstone Oracle, to offset.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Added
Removed
Essentially removing the graveyard resource cards and anything that sort of leaned or made advantage of it. Also the board wipes as well, it's just better to be pro-active with cards.
I've added Academy Rector as it does everything you want. If you use it with Eldritch Evolution you can really set yourself for the win. Either 2x mana doublers or a mana doubler and Greater Good.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Also, for an additional protection effect is City of Solitude worth the inclusion?