Great primer, Grenzo was the first EDH deck I ever made. I had kind of taken it apart over the years but after I saw this primer I've started rebuilding him.
Looks like we got a couple of goodies from Dominaria, Zhalfirin Void gives us an untapped scryland and Whisper, Blood Liturgist is Hell's Caretaker without the timing restriction, though we do have to sac another creature, might be good if we want another thornbite staff combo.
I've found a couple cards I think might be worth consideration while I've been rebuilding my Grenzo deck so I thought I'd post them here.
Buried Ruin - With how crucial our artifacts are for our combos this seems like a nice way to pick up a flipped/destroyed artifact. We're two colors so I figure the colorless mana doesn't hurt too much.
Agent of Erebos - Seems like the best graveyard hate we can add to the deck, a flippable creature and is four mana for our tutors.
Ravenous Chupacabra - I have this in my list over Bone Shredder, one more mana to hardcast but it can kill anything. Also makes it tutorable.
Crypt Rats - Mana hungry but I feel like having a access to a board wipe could be strong. Also deals damage to players.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - If we need another sac outlet this seems like a good option. Instant speed sac and can survive a board wipe, get huge, and beat down. Also make a good blocker.
Arcbound Reclaimer - Not sure the deck needs more artifact recursion but this seems like a decent choice if it does.
Dualcaster Mage - Not a very good blind flip but in a very spell heavy meta it could do some work. Seems fun once you have a digger loop active.
My original build of Grenzo had way too many non-creatures but there were a couple I would consider running.
Mana Geyser - This card very easily makes 20+ mana when cast and can let us dig super deep into the deck. Out of all the non-creatures I ran in my old build this one seems like the most likely to make it into my new build.
Braid of Fire - Games when you cast this on turn two feel so great. But being a dead flip and a pretty dead draw late game makes me lean toward not putting it in my new build.
Hey Geed, thanks for all of the suggestions/thoughts! Here are my takes on each one you mentioned:
Buried Ruin - You're absolutely right. This needs to enter the land base as an additional way to recur those artifacts. Great call!
Agent of Erebos - I'll add this into the consideration list as a meta-dependent call. I really prefer my flips to have an immediate impact (or set up more value) whether they hit the field in early or late game, and this is one that would just be sad to flip early or in a non-GY abusing meta. I do think it's good, but probably not versatile enough for me to run in the default list.
Crypt Rats - I'll think more on this one, but I prefer to utilize most of my mana towards flipping more or abusing flips. So as of right now, I'm going to pass on this one.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - Also already going in with the next iteration of the build I've playtested this guy for a bit, and he feels amazing as an indestructible beat stick.
Arcbound Reclaimer - I do like that he can potentially recur two artifacts, but I'm not a huge fan of the card going to the top of our deck instead of hand. Though if you had an immediate scry available, it would be great for artifact creature recursion...I'll test him out and see how it goes.
Dualcaster Mage - You called this one as a good meta-pick. Has the potential to be a whiff in and of itself, but in a spell-heavy meta this could be immensely abusable.
Mana Geyser - I don't disagree with you running this card as it has amazing potential if drawn, but I won't be adding it to the list as I want every non-land card to be recurrable in some way. As a side note; I'm thinking of trying out Crucible of Worlds to make even our lands recurable too.
Braid of Fire - This was in my very first build of Grenzo (back when I was using a black tutor suite), and it is amazing when drawn immediately at the start. However, it's completely underwhelming in every other section of the game both as a dead flip and a late game draw. So I agree with your analysis and wouldn't recommend adding it back to your list unless you're already going with a more noncreature-heavy route.
As for Dominaria, I'm working on a detailed analysis of the set for the deck and don't want to give too much away, but I can confirm that Zhalfrin Void will be in our list for obvious reasons
Just made 5 card swaps that I believe will dramatically improve the consistency of value in our flips. I've also added a new combo in the combo list! All details are included in the change log of the initial post
First off, congrats on the recent primer status. Your list has helped me greatly in refining my own version of this deck.
I know you've said you like to avoid bad flips, especially anything that can't be otherwise recurred, but boy, Mana Echoes has been an absolute house for me and I highly recommend taking it for a spin. It can often flip 1/4 to 1/2 your deck into play (depending on how lucky you are in hitting token producers). Last Friday I netted 40 mana off this on turn 5.
Also, what advice or other cards might you recommend if you were to take this deck in a less combo focused direction. My LSG has points system that penalizes infinite combos. So for instance I'm testing Throne of the God-Pharaoh in place of Thornbite Staff.
My original build of this deck was a much less combo focused so I have a couple recommendations. Some of these are pretty meta dependent/ maybe not that great.
Netherborn Phalanx - If people are flooding the board with creatures/tokens in your meta this can just one shot people. Obviously not a great early flip.
Anathemancer - Similar to Phalanx but for non-basic lands.
Guiltfeeder - Can hit for a lot late game and comes with some evasion.
First off, congrats on the recent primer status. Your list has helped me greatly in refining my own version of this deck.
I know you've said you like to avoid bad flips, especially anything that can't be otherwise recurred, but boy, Mana Echoes has been an absolute house for me and I highly recommend taking it for a spin. It can often flip 1/4 to 1/2 your deck into play (depending on how lucky you are in hitting token producers). Last Friday I netted 40 mana off this on turn 5.
Also, what advice or other cards might you recommend if you were to take this deck in a less combo focused direction. My LSG has points system that penalizes infinite combos. So for instance I'm testing Throne of the God-Pharaoh in place of Thornbite Staff.
Thanks
Thank you so much! It was definitely a big deal to finally reach primer status I haven't considered Mana Echoes, but I'm interested in the synergy it offers. It's true that hitting a token producer like Siege-Gang Commander and/or Marionette Master can pretty much end a game with this card. However, I feel the card falls into the same category as Braid of Fire for me. It's immensely powerful to draw and have in your starting hand, but can end up muddying the waters while flipping. Granted, it's not near as bad of a late game draw as Braid, but it also concerns me that it takes the entirety of turn four (which is usually the first flip turn) and will immediately draw the attention of the table when it comes out.
So because of this build's philosophy, I'm probably going to pass on it. BUT I've been contemplating building a goblin tribal version of Grenzo, and you better believe this card will go into that build!
I would also consider removing/replacing Ashnod's Altar since it enables a ton of infinite loops. You could replace it with Phyrexian Altar as a less efficient, non-infinite sac outlet.
I would then look through my Alternate Picks list and consider which ones work best for what you want to accomplish. I would specifically recommend Balthor the Defiled as a way to recur your creatures since you're going to be more reliant on a board presence in the absence of infinites. As a side note, I like your inclusion of Throne of the God-Pharaoh as a win-condition. This deck can do a lot of tapping, and this in combination with Furystoke Giant is bonkers.
My original build of this deck was a much less combo focused so I have a couple recommendations. Some of these are pretty meta dependent/ maybe not that great.
Netherborn Phalanx - If people are flooding the board with creatures/tokens in your meta this can just one shot people. Obviously not a great early flip.
Anathemancer - Similar to Phalanx but for non-basic lands.
Guiltfeeder - Can hit for a lot late game and comes with some evasion.
Another random suggestion Soulbright Flamekin can turn 6 mna into 8 mana and give your creatures trample in the process.
Hopefully one of those random suggestions was helpful.
Thanks for your help in providing suggestions for non-combo players! I particularly love your recommendation of Netherborn Phalanx and will be adding it to my Alternate Picks list since it can destroy "go-wide" strategies, and the transmute can find a lot of a good stuff like Duplicant or Workhorse.
Well it’s finally time for the review of all potential Dominaria cards!
• Cabal Stronghold – This land is great and definitely worth adding. I don’t run Cabal Coffers because I never want to draw it as a dead land. However, Cabal Stronghold will always provide at least one mana and can only ramp as the game goes on. It also works great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (counting only basics that become swamps) and Crypt Ghast.
• Deathbloom Thallid – Anything that provides additional saccable creatures is strong, but this card unfortunately just has better substitutions. If you need another creature like this in your list, run Marsh Flitter instead.
• Garna, the Bloodflame – Initially seems great, but has a couple of key flaws. First, it’s a terrible blind flip as it essentially does nothing a majority of the time. Second, even when it does work, it puts the creatures in your hand which is never where we want them. Pass.
• Gilded Lotus – Expensive mana investment that adds to our noncreature flips. Not going to say it’s never worth including, but I’ve already chosen to pass over this before and will continue to do so.
• Goblin Chainwhirler – If you have a meta with a very heavy token deck, this can be a nice addition. But overall, this card doesn’t have enough of an effect to warrant its inclusion.
• Goblin Warchief – Makes our goblins have haste and cost 1 less. However, we don’t have enough goblins to make this vital and we still don’t like casting from hand. Play in a goblin tribal build of Grenzo; otherwise, there are better options.
• Mox Amber – I pulled one in my first pack in the prerelease…unfortunately, it’s just not good enough to be worth adding an additional noncreature card.
• Memorial to Folly – We don’t usually like casting things from hand, but if we have no other options, having recursion on a land is pretty good. But personally, I’d rather run Volrath's Stronghold as it can also potentially set up a scry.
• Memorial to Ruin – Additional land destruction on a land…that costs 5 mana….meh….Wasteland’s strictly better.
• Windgrace Acolyte – Interesting flip as it could potentially set up a graveyard for some sweet recursion. But I believe the effect to be slightly weaker than most of our other flips…So while I’d like to try this creature out, I can’t see any creature worth removing for him.
• Whisper, Blood Liturgist – The more I look at this card, the more I want to try it. I’ve been interested in running Hell's Caretaker, but hate that it limits the effect to the Upkeep Phase. So Whisper’s effect can be done at instant speed while having a slightly more expensive cost (which is minimal for this deck). Also provides some potentially interesting lines of play with Thornbite Staff.
• Zhalfirin Void – And now it’s time for the most powerful card in the set and the only card I knew would be added the instant I saw it. An untapped land that provides a free scry! That’s it, and it’s amazing. A free scry is always great value in this deck, and the land can tap immediately. 10/10, would add again.
That’s it! I hope this was helpful, and please let me know if I missed any other interesting cards in the set that you feel would be great additions. Thanks as always for joining me in the dungeon
Updates will be coming to the list soon based off of my Dominaria review. I'm estimating at least three replacements to the current deck, so stay tuned!
Hey all, I've been using this primer to refer to while working on my own Grenzo deck so I just want to start by saying thank you to everyone who's been contributing, because it's been a real help!
I thought I would throw in a couple of card suggestions that I've been thinking about:
-Goblin Ringleader - I know we aren't really trying to play cards from our hand, but most of the goblins are small enough to cast pretty cheap and it has the big upside in that it allows us to arrange the rest on the bottom of our library.
-Pentavus - it could just be a 5/5 that pumps out a few 1/1 fliers, but with Ashnod's Altar, a digger piece, and grenzo it can generate infinite mana. Add a Deathbringer Thoctar to the board and that'll turn into straight damage.
I totally love this deck. I can't wait to try it, and meantime I'm looking at cards to add. What do you think about:
- replacing Hedron Crawler with Manakin. Strictly better, or I'm not considering something?
- adding Boggart Harbinger. A worse Goblin Matron is worth, or is redundant/simply too worse?
- adding Overeager Apprentice and/or Skirge Familiar? As I understood, casting cards from the hand is a problem, and with these we can send them to the grave, gaining mana in the process. And the Familiar is even repetable!
Thanks for the suggestions, Darkaxe11990!
- Manakin - This is probably strictly better with the 1 additional power. The reason I personally chose to run Hedron Crawler was because I had a spare foil lying around But I might as well update the list to reflect this slightly better creature.
- Boggart Harbinger - The initial reason I didn't run this card is because we had limited Scry options and thus, putting the goblin on top is less effective then just putting it into the hand. However, with the recent additional scry options added, this might serve as a better alternative. I'm going to switch this in and test it out.
- Overeager Apprentice/Skirge Familiar - I'm not too sure about Overeager Apprentice as we already have two creatures in the deck that do the same effect with no additional cost. However, Skirge Familiar has been on my radar for a long time, and I think I do need to finally give him a test run.
So overall, great suggestions, and I really appreciate your input!
Hey all, I've been using this primer to refer to while working on my own Grenzo deck so I just want to start by saying thank you to everyone who's been contributing, because it's been a real help!
I thought I would throw in a couple of card suggestions that I've been thinking about:
-Goblin Ringleader - I know we aren't really trying to play cards from our hand, but most of the goblins are small enough to cast pretty cheap and it has the big upside in that it allows us to arrange the rest on the bottom of our library.
-Pentavus - it could just be a 5/5 that pumps out a few 1/1 fliers, but with Ashnod's Altar, a digger piece, and grenzo it can generate infinite mana. Add a Deathbringer Thoctar to the board and that'll turn into straight damage.
Hi Gruagach! Glad to hear the primer has inspired you to join us Dungeoneers! I've personally found that effects like Goblin Ringleader can be feast or famine in this deck; and while the occasional crazy top 4 may occur, it feels far worse to put 3 lands and a Sol Ring on the bottom (which I've had happen several times). Honestly, if you want this kind of effect, I'd recommend running Clone Shell. I think it's way more flexible in not only doing the same function, but also can either cheat out another creature or remove a land that would otherwise be a dead flip.
As for Pentavus I always welcome more infinite combos. And really, the hardest part with this deck is finding a way to balance the infinite combo pieces with the value creatures. I'll take a look at the list, but have a feeling he may end up in the Alternate Picks List as an additional combo if you want one Thanks again for the suggestions! And good luck with your current list.
Greetings! I've been thinking about building a Grenzo list for a while, as he's pretty spicy in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death list. It was certainly worth reading the opinions of someone who's already put so much thought into it. My comments/questions are:
You state that you're only running Ravenous Baboons because you don't want to drop the cash on Goblin Settler, a position I totally understand. I assume the desire for the Settler is his Goblin synergy, but if it's the power upgrade you covet, have you considered Avalanche Riders? He's got the same mana cost and etb, but he's kind enough to sac himself in case you're missing an outlet. He's also got haste, but from your description of how you play the deck, I doubt that's relevant. On a personal note, I actually run the Baboons in Alesha specifically because they're not as strong as the Rider. Lots of the players at my LGS are at a medium level, or lower, of play experience and I don't want them to even fear that I'm coming for all their lands. They do accept that there are some lands powerful enough to warrant destruction though, so I find the Baboons a happy middle ground.
Is there a reason you run Myr Retriever over Junk Diver? Since your strategy makes the 1 extra mana cost moot, isn't a flying chump blocker just better?
And my final comment is actually a rules correction for you regarding Corpse Connoisseur. You state that "you can also sac him and Unearth him as many times as you can pay in the turn", but this is incorrect. If you use his Unearth ability, he will indeed exile himself at eot, but the rules for Unearth also include "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." This clause exists specifically to thwart these types of shennanigans. The only way around that text is to either counter the delayed trigger (with something like Stifle), flicker it (with something like Conjurer's Closet), phase it out (with something like Teferi's Veil), or end the turn and clear the stack (with something like Sundial of the Infinite). When I built my Sedris, the Traitor King deck I made sure to master the rules of Unearth, as well as how to break them. It's an easy enough detail to gloss over, especially for just one card in your deck. Any normal graveyard looping engine works the same as for any other creature, you've just got to keep Unearth out of it.
But please don't think the above rules lawyering in any way detracts from my appreciation of the deck you've built. It's a masterpiece, and is a great write up for anyone who's interested in giving the slot machine a pull!
Greetings! I've been thinking about building a Grenzo list for a while, as he's pretty spicy in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death list. It was certainly worth reading the opinions of someone who's already put so much thought into it. My comments/questions are:
You state that you're only running Ravenous Baboons because you don't want to drop the cash on Goblin Settler, a position I totally understand. I assume the desire for the Settler is his Goblin synergy, but if it's the power upgrade you covet, have you considered Avalanche Riders? He's got the same mana cost and etb, but he's kind enough to sac himself in case you're missing an outlet. He's also got haste, but from your description of how you play the deck, I doubt that's relevant. On a personal note, I actually run the Baboons in Alesha specifically because they're not as strong as the Rider. Lots of the players at my LGS are at a medium level, or lower, of play experience and I don't want them to even fear that I'm coming for all their lands. They do accept that there are some lands powerful enough to warrant destruction though, so I find the Baboons a happy middle ground.
Is there a reason you run Myr Retriever over Junk Diver? Since your strategy makes the 1 extra mana cost moot, isn't a flying chump blocker just better?
And my final comment is actually a rules correction for you regarding Corpse Connoisseur. You state that "you can also sac him and Unearth him as many times as you can pay in the turn", but this is incorrect. If you use his Unearth ability, he will indeed exile himself at eot, but the rules for Unearth also include "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." This clause exists specifically to thwart these types of shennanigans. The only way around that text is to either counter the delayed trigger (with something like Stifle), flicker it (with something like Conjurer's Closet), phase it out (with something like Teferi's Veil), or end the turn and clear the stack (with something like Sundial of the Infinite). When I built my Sedris, the Traitor King deck I made sure to master the rules of Unearth, as well as how to break them. It's an easy enough detail to gloss over, especially for just one card in your deck. Any normal graveyard looping engine works the same as for any other creature, you've just got to keep Unearth out of it.
But please don't think the above rules lawyering in any way detracts from my appreciation of the deck you've built. It's a masterpiece, and is a great write up for anyone who's interested in giving the slot machine a pull!
Thanks for the correction, EbonRose! I made sure to update the card's description to avoid the incorrect ruling, and I appreciate you for pointing it out
You hit the nail on the head regarding Ravenous Baboons. I specifically run it as a more casual friendly LD answer since it can only target non-basics. But I probably should update the list to include Avalanche Riders instead if others want a more optimized list. I'll work on switching that one in with the next update!
As for Junk Diver vs Myr Retriever, it's really a matter of preference. One serves as a flying chump blocker; the other is cheaper to cast from hand if drawn. I've personally chosen the Myr for the cheaper cost because while CMC usually is moot in the deck, this is one creature that you'll want to cast from hand immediately if your Ashnod's Altar, Soldevi Digger or Tel-Jilad Stylus were destroyed; and because mana maximization is so important to this deck, I've chosen the cheaper costed one. But I will add in Junk Diver to the Alternate Picks list as a replacement in case one worries more about flyers getting through!
When will the updated decklist come out? I'm really curious to find out what changes there will be *-*
And I can't wait to complete the deck
Hey Darkaxel! I've already made a few updates to the deck based off of some of your suggestions. You can see a change history log at the bottom of the primer. I'm still testing Boggart Harbringer and Skirge Familiar. Haven't had the chance to see either of them in action yet, but I'll keep play testing and eventually I'll run into them
As for the update with Avalanche Riders, I'm saving that for after I've play tested the above cards so I can make changes in batches instead of a bunch of minor changes.
You could definitely add them to your list if you're receiving enough hate. My particular playgroup typically has scarier things to save their removal for which is why Grenzo can be so good as he goes under the radar.
Also we have an AMAZING new addition to our deck in C19 with Meteor Golem.
We finally have an enchantment answer, dungeoneers!!!
Hey all! A bit late to the discussion with this one, but what are some thoughts on running Mikaeus, the Unhallowed? He makes for some really easy infinite combos with a BUNCH of cards I'm already running (Triskelion, Workhorse, Murderous Redcap, Pentavus). He synergizes really well with the vast majority of the deck, which abuses ETB effects - double Fleshbag Marauder, Siege-Gang Commander, etc. He protects from board wipes, he discourages attacking us...But he's hard to cast and hard to flip off Grenzo.
It feels wrong to NOT run such a strong combo enabler; it's like playing Niv-Mizzet without any Curiosity effects. But is it worth the slot in our deck?
Secondary question, what do people think about Nim Deathmantle? It goes infinite with Workhorse or Ashnod's Altar + half of our deck. It can protect Grenzo (or any important creature) from removal and increase his power. It's a cheap artifact that can be sac'd with Goblin Welder...But it's a hefty mana sink when we already want to spend any spare mana on Grenzo activations.
Same problem. It works REALLY well with a ton of cards we're already running, but is it worth playing?
Hey all! A bit late to the discussion with this one, but what are some thoughts on running Mikaeus, the Unhallowed? He makes for some really easy infinite combos with a BUNCH of cards I'm already running (Triskelion, Workhorse, Murderous Redcap, Pentavus). He synergizes really well with the vast majority of the deck, which abuses ETB effects - double Fleshbag Marauder, Siege-Gang Commander, etc. He protects from board wipes, he discourages attacking us...But he's hard to cast and hard to flip off Grenzo.
It feels wrong to NOT run such a strong combo enabler; it's like playing Niv-Mizzet without any Curiosity effects. But is it worth the slot in our deck?
Secondary question, what do people think about Nim Deathmantle? It goes infinite with Workhorse or Ashnod's Altar + half of our deck. It can protect Grenzo (or any important creature) from removal and increase his power. It's a cheap artifact that can be sac'd with Goblin Welder...But it's a hefty mana sink when we already want to spend any spare mana on Grenzo activations.
Same problem. It works REALLY well with a ton of cards we're already running, but is it worth playing?
Hey GameThree! It's never too late to join the party! Here's my thoughts on your suggestions!
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - I admit he's very strong and does enable a lot of combos, but he breaks the major rule of my build which is no creatures above 3 power. This is to maximize speed and efficiency, and having an extra dead flip that requires an additional card to generate any value goes against this decks core philosophy; instant value. I won't discourage you from running him yourself, but I personally have chosen to pass on him.
- Nim Deathmantle - I can't believe I've never thought of this one. It's cheap, it enables combos, and it serves as protection for Grenzo while also keeping him at 3+ power! I typically turn down noncreature cards, but this one's an exception as it's exceptionally powerful with all that it offers. I'm definitely going to test this out.
What about Illusionist's Bracers? Granted, they are worse than a hearthstone, (in that they need to be equiped for 2, therefore costing 5 mana total, and beeing less flexible with an unequal amount of mana) but they could grant some more infinite combo value, and, once equipped, are almost as good as the hearthstone.
Also, bracers + hearthstone = 2 mana 4 flips, that has to be worth something
Also, while flipping through my collection: How about Opal Palace - if we use it to colorfix our commander, he enters the battlefield with 1 counter for 3 mana if cast the first time - just like any other card, but makes him bigger on any later casts (just in case someone runs a -1-1 deck)
Also, with all this saccing and that many low power creatures - how about shirei, shizo's caretaker?
For the combo section: Anything with persist / undieing (redcaps) + Ashnods Altar + any of the "2- Put a card from a gy onto the bottom of your library" => unlimited etb of that creature (Sac 2 times for 4 mana, use 2 mana to bottom and 2 mana to dig out)
Also what about your landcount? All the other primers I read had a landcount around 32 max, did you stumble into manascrew too often with that numbers?
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll probably have to add that additional combo in as it seems I did forget to list it. As for the landcount, this deck is one that loves drawing nothing but lands. We want mana fast and lots of it. The reason is because unlike other decks using their mana for value, we have to prioritize flips, and the more the better. So I've found this land count to be extremely consistent and rewarding.
As for the suggestions:
- Illusionist's Bracers - It's good, no doubt, but I'm unsure about running it. It's a heavy 5 mana investment that immediately draws hate. You better believe the instant you try to equip this, someone is targeting Grenzo. For those reasons alone, I kind of want to shy away from this pick.
- Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker - Really not the right list for this guy. He only targets creatures with 1 power and we run a lot of 2-3 power creatures. Plus, it's at the end of the turn, thus making it extremely slow for what this deck wants to do.
- Opal Palace - Really no reason to make Grenzo bigger, and it's just an additional mana investment that would be better spent on flips.
Hey everyone! I know it's a bit late, but here are my thoughts on Battlebond and M19 for this list. Unfortunately, because of school and work, I will not have time to do the in-depth reviews of every possible card for the deck. So from now on, I will be picking out the highlights and discussing them. If I do miss any cards or you have any counterarguments for ones I missed, please feel free to let me know!
Battlebond
Honestly, as much as I love the set, there wasn't much love for Grenzo here. But there is one amazing (albeit, not exciting) card, and one potential add.
- Luxury Suite - Run it. No reason not to. This is going to replace Cabal Stronghold in my list as it hasn't been living up to expectations recently.
- Victory Chimes - Interesting ramp that potentially increases our flips by 1 for each opponent! I'm considering replacing Rakdos Signet for this.
M19
Whew boy, this set gave us the card we all needed in Rakdos and will be your most abusable tool in Grenzo. I'm already in love.
- Meteor Golem - We have enchantment removal bois. Or removal for anything else you need. Run this card; there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be.
- Goblin Trashmaster - Goblin lord, sac outlet, destroys artifacts...what? Absolutely an amazing addition to our deck to add some instant artifact hate when needed.
- Desecrated Tomb - The least likely card to make it in the list, but thought it deserved an honorable mention. With all of the recursion that you do, this artifact could generate a ton of value. And with Ashnod's Altar it creates a plethora of infinites. But I feel like it's slow, doesn't generate instant value, and has the potential to be a dead card.
There's my takes on the cards I think are worth running in this deck! I'll be posting an update to the list soon!
I think Nim Deathmantle might just be better than Soldevi Digger/Reito Lantern. While you can't stage the cost between multiple turns, functionally Nim Deathmantle performs the same combos as Digger, for the same mana, without the need for Grenzo in play. At the least, I think Deathmantle's role is similar to them.
Some things I'm playing that you aren't that I swear by:
Soldevi Adnate - This card is so damn good. It makes an insane amount of mana over the course of a game if you can feed it things like shriekmaw and solemn. It's a recent addition and it's been MVP in several games. I also give heavy preference to 2 CMC creatures that are good to hit off grenzo, since you can also play them on t2 and feel good about it.
Kozilek's Translator, Skirge Familiar - Translator is great, basically 'taps' for 4 mana a turn cycle. Skirge familar is similar, and it's slightly less busted without magus of the wheel/wheel of fortune, but free mana is free mana.
Godo/Sword of Feast and Famine - The Godo/SoFaF package gets you so many free wins. SoFaF is already great in grenzo since you can play it when the table's shields are down, get your mana investment back, and then threaten to have double mana the next turn. When Godo is put into play on the end step and the table's shields are down, things get nutty. Since godo gets to attack twice essentially the next turn, you're going to be able to triple up your mana. It pretty much always either wins the game or puts you way ahead. It does put a huge target on your head, but I'm usually the target out of the gate anyway in my group when I bust Grenzo out
Godo also grabs thornbite staff for you as well when you need it, which seems pretty clutch.
Shriekmaw - Like i said, I give high preference to creatures that aren't embarassing to have to pay retail for, which means I'd much rather play shriekmaw over something like duplicant since it's just way more lean.
Balthor, the Defiled - You're not running Balthor?!?! Man, balthor is one of the single best cards in the deck, and can really help you clinch the win in those games where Grenzo has died too many times to feasibly recast. It's also super one-sided. Definitely give this one a try.
Maralen of the Mornsong - This card is the nuts too since we break its symmetry so hard. Put it into play on opponent's end step, grim tutor for ashnod's altar/wheel of fortune and watch the table cry. It's also really funny to reanimate or put into play in response to other peoples' wheels/windfalls/draw spells
Magus of the Wheel - Really solid out to start hitting more land drops, pairs really well with skirge familiar and anger. Can make infinite mana with epitaph golem if you have that setup.
Chaos Warp - Even though it's not a creature, I feel like it's really nice to have an out to anything, including pesky things like rest in peace and suppression field.
Faithless looting/cathartic reunion - Again, not creatures, but they look at so many cards in the pre-grenzo turns and we care so little about discarding our nerds that they're really close to 1-mana draw-two and 2-mana draw-three. I'm inclined to keep pretty much any hand where they're castable in my opener
Goblin Chirurgeon - Grenzo's personal bodyguard and another goblin sac outlet. Wouldn't leave home without it.
Humble Defector/Dark Confidant - Our deck is super mana hungry and hitting land drops is crucial. They're both 2 mana, pre-Grenzo plays that can help you hit some extra lands. I don't worry about the downside of Humble Defector since it already did its job, and we also have many ways to sac it with the trigger on the stack later in the game. Plus you can even sweet talk your way into getting it back sometimes.
Chrome Mox/Gemstone Caverns - Probably the single best cards in the deck to have in your opening hand. t2 grenzo is so clutch and gets you started so much faster, and we have infinite nerds in our hand to pitch to them.
Inventor's Fair - Land, so very little cost to adding it to the deck. Tutors up game winning combo pieces like ashnod's altar and metallic mimic
Crypt of Agadeem - Can make some extra mana, little cost to include
Howltooth Hollow - Spinerock knoll #2, even if you never activate it (and I actually have before, thanks to maralen + wheel!)
But yeah, definitely interested in trying some new stuff as well since i still have some cards in my list i'm disappointed by like Chainer and Olivia. I see the power of Lightning Crafter after reading your writeup, definitely a card I had written off before.
My shortlist right now is:
Moggcatcher
Imperial Recruiter
Yahenni
Mana Crypt
Whisper, Blood Liturgist
Lightning Crafter
Azra Oddsmaker
Zhalfirin Void
Path of Ancestry
I also would like to give skullclamp another chance. Also gonna figure out if thornbite staff is worth it in my build, since it has an impressive number of combos.
Also pretty excited for Goblin Trashmaster (damn this card is great!) and Meteor Golem out of M19.
I think Nim Deathmantle might just be better than Soldevi Digger/Reito Lantern. While you can't stage the cost between multiple turns, functionally Nim Deathmantle performs the same combos as Digger, for the same mana, without the need for Grenzo in play. At the least, I think Deathmantle's role is similar to them.
You may be right on the the call to replace one of these two pieces. I've been considering Soldevi Digger anyways since it's limited in only grabbing the top card of the GY which can screw me over sometimes. Also, it doesn't have a foil version, so it looks out of place in my completely foiled out list. I'll test running this card and place of it and see how things go.
However, I would strongly suggest that you do not replace Treasonous Ogre for them. The Ogre has won me so many games since his ability can be activated as many times as you'd like as long as you have the life. Getting him out as your first flip, can often mean the end of the game right there. And I can't tell you how many games I've gone down to 1 life with this guy and won because of the amount of mana he produces alone.
Hey! I too have a Grenzo slot machine deck, and it's probably my favorite EDH deck. I've been tweaking it for quite a while. Here's the list
Some things I'm playing that you aren't that I swear by:
But yeah, definitely interested in trying some new stuff as well since i still have some cards in my list i'm disappointed by like Chainer and Olivia. I see the power of Lightning Crafter after reading your writeup, definitely a card I had written off before.
My shortlist right now is:
Moggcatcher
Imperial Recruiter
Yahenni
Mana Crypt
Whisper, Blood Liturgist
Lightning Crafter
Azra Oddsmaker
Zhalfirin Void
Path of Ancestry
I also would like to give skullclamp another chance. Also gonna figure out if thornbite staff is worth it in my build, since it has an impressive number of combos.
Also pretty excited for Goblin Trashmaster (damn this card is great!) and Meteor Golem out of M19.
Thanks for the suggestions, URLSweatshirt! I'll comment on each one of them below. The major reason for differences I see in others' lists are because I follow a strict philosophy with each card I add:
1. Can be hit by Grenzo's ability (creature)
1a. If above rule is broken, must be recurrable
2. Instant Value
3. Does not remove available mana for flips
2-3a. If either of the above two rules are broken, must provide amazing value (tutor, ramp, combo)
So based off of these principles, here are my thoughts on the cards you suggested.
- Soldevi Adnate / Kozilek's Translator / Skirge Familiar - all cards that were recently suggested to me and will enter the testing phase. I like them a lot, and have to play some games to see which cards they outperform (this list is always hard to cut cards from).
- Godo, Bandit Warlord / Sword of Feast and Famine - I haven't ever thought of this guy or the sword, but I do admit the concept's pretty interesting. The most attractive thing to me is the tutoring of Thornbite Staff since that's one of the most busted cards in the deck. I'll need to try this out and see how it does, but it's gonna be hard to find two cards to remove for this.
- Shriekmaw - was one of the first cards in my initial version of the deck, but it has two major problems. First, it's limited selection can really mess you up, so Ravenous Chupacabra is strictly better. Second, it just destroys which is much less helpful in a meta of GY recursion which is why I wouldn't ever replace Duplicant for it.
- Balthor the Defiled - Was actually in the initial posting of this list, but I removed it because I had never once gotten him off in my plethora of games. I'm never going to say Balthor is a bad card, he can be amazing in Grenzo decks, but I've relegated him to my "Alternate Picks" portion since he's never worked for me.
- Maralen of the Mornsong - I try to have all of my creatures create instant value when they ETB, and Maralen's a little slow while also potentially helping my opponents answer me if she's not quickly sacced. I'll add her to my alternate picks list, but I've never been a fan of Maralen as I never like giving my opponents answers.
- Magus of the Wheel - I'm not too keen on this one. Tt breaks the philosophy of instant value with this list and only offers draw (which this deck doesn't particularly care for). I'm inclined to skip it.
- Chaos Warp - Noncreature, nonrecurrable which already makes it very low on my list. I tried running this in my very first list, but ended up dead flipping it too many times. Thankfully, Meteor Golem will remove the need for this card as we now have a recurrable creature with enchantment removal. Also, Rest in Peace doesn't stop Grenzo's ability since Grenzo doesn't care about the card's location after flipping it, so GY replacement effects only slow down my combos, but they definitely don't neuter Grenzo like a lot of players think.
- Faithless Looting / Cathartic Reunion - Same issue as above. I have to minimize noncreature, nonrecurrable cards to avoid dead flips, and if the card doesn't provide immense value, then it's difficult to be worth running in this list.
- Goblin Chirurgeon - Like this card. Will definitely put in on my testing list.
- Humble Defector / Dark Confidant - I haven't really prioritized draw at all in this list since drawing our creatures is almost always bad. I totally understand your sentiment about ensuring land drops, but honestly, I can't remember the last time I've been manascrewed in this deck as we have so much ramp and run a higher amount of lands with a "lower curve" (Grenzo and flip).
- Chrome Mox / Gemstone Caverns - I like the Caverns as a quicker Grenzo is always good. As for the Mox, this probably needs to replace my signet for faster and free mana.
- Inventor's Fair - Also love this card and will try to find a colorless land spot to replace it with.
- Crypt of Agadeem - I'll have to watch my graveyard closer in my next few games to see if this is worth putting in. Because of the inordinate amount of recursion, I feel like my graveyard is rarely completely full unless I'm playing against Superfriends.
- Howltooth Hollow - Was recently removed because I've slowly grown to dislike the fixing effects more and more. I've had too many situations where I've put 3 lands and a noncreature artifact on the bottom. So I chose to take this and Clone Shell out. The reason I've kept Spinerock Knoll is because it's condition is pretty easily met, and thus exiling an Ashnod's Altar doesn't feel as bad.
Overall, you've given me a lot to think about and a lot of new cards to test out, so I'll probably have to add a "In Testing" list to the main post so I can keep track of it all. Thanks for the suggestions!
Made five changes to the deck that I think are an overall huge improvement to the list's functionality and play. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions you offered so far! There's still a lot of cards in testing, so I appreciate all of your suggestions to continually make this deck better!
Removed:
• Ravenous Chupacabra - Our replacement for this is strictly better.
• Soldevi Digger - This engine is limited in only being able to grab the top card of your graveyard which has screwed me over several times. I believe it is being replaced with a superior engine that offers more versatility.
• Cabal Stronghold - Massively underperforming. Don't like it and its value has dropped with the amount of nonbasics we now include.
• Mindclaw Shaman - The card has underperformed for me as well, which is very sad to me. I constantly find myself picking a player that has no more instants/sorceries or has a worthless spell. This card will definitely stay on my radar though as it has performed well in the past, and it has a good chance of being rotated back in if my hand-hate seems to be lacking.
Added:
• Meteor Golem - Welcome to the future boys and girls. Rakdos now has enchantment removal...anything removal. This card is bonkers and can be an easily abusable source of versatile destruction. I love this card and can't ever forsee it being removed.
• Nim Deathmantle - This card provides a digger loop in one single cost (especially helpful if Grenzo is in the command zone). It also has the added benefit of being a failsafe for Grenzo. Boardwipe? No problem! Grenzo's back, and with the +2/+2 from the equipment, he's still able to flip the entire deck despite losing his +1/+1 counter. This card literally won me my last game by keeping Grenzo alive after two board wipes. Just confirmed everything I had hoped this card would be.
• Inventors' Fair - Free life gain and a free tutor for our busted artifacts. This land was long overdue.
• Avalanche Riders - Hits every land for the same price as the baboons.
• Goblin Trashmaster - An additional sac outlet, buffs Grenzo to stay at 3+ power, and destroys artifacts. Great and versatile card that will make a powerful inclusion in the deck.
Have you ever tested Goblin Charbelcher in this deck? I don't know if it's consistent enough but being able to stack the bottom of your deck with whatever you reveal seems pretty cool
While we miss out on the haste we get a buff in power/toughness and dodge the echo cost.
Definitely good alternatives! I'll place both of them in the alternative picks list. I personally will stick with Avalanche Riders since I prefer to keep creatures at 2 power or lower whenever possible (in case Grenzo loses his +1 at some point).
Have you ever tested Goblin Charbelcher in this deck? I don't know if it's consistent enough but being able to stack the bottom of your deck with whatever you reveal seems pretty cool
Honestly, this is not a card I've ever considered, but it does seem hilarious. The issue I have with it for this list is the cost of casting and then activating which could instead be used for flips that would do so much more. However, I am working on a more casual friendly version with no infinites and will probably throw the Goblin Charbelcher into it for kicks and giggles.
Hi I love the deck! I made an account to ask what you think about Night Incarnate from the upcoming c18 set. Any other thoughts on the new c18 cards coming out?
Thanks again for the great deck, I'm building it in paper now!
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Hey Geed, thanks for all of the suggestions/thoughts! Here are my takes on each one you mentioned:
Buried Ruin - You're absolutely right. This needs to enter the land base as an additional way to recur those artifacts. Great call!
Agent of Erebos - I'll add this into the consideration list as a meta-dependent call. I really prefer my flips to have an immediate impact (or set up more value) whether they hit the field in early or late game, and this is one that would just be sad to flip early or in a non-GY abusing meta. I do think it's good, but probably not versatile enough for me to run in the default list.
Ravenous Chupacabra - Already going in with the next update I'll be posting
Crypt Rats - I'll think more on this one, but I prefer to utilize most of my mana towards flipping more or abusing flips. So as of right now, I'm going to pass on this one.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - Also already going in with the next iteration of the build I've playtested this guy for a bit, and he feels amazing as an indestructible beat stick.
Arcbound Reclaimer - I do like that he can potentially recur two artifacts, but I'm not a huge fan of the card going to the top of our deck instead of hand. Though if you had an immediate scry available, it would be great for artifact creature recursion...I'll test him out and see how it goes.
Dualcaster Mage - You called this one as a good meta-pick. Has the potential to be a whiff in and of itself, but in a spell-heavy meta this could be immensely abusable.
Mana Geyser - I don't disagree with you running this card as it has amazing potential if drawn, but I won't be adding it to the list as I want every non-land card to be recurrable in some way. As a side note; I'm thinking of trying out Crucible of Worlds to make even our lands recurable too.
Braid of Fire - This was in my very first build of Grenzo (back when I was using a black tutor suite), and it is amazing when drawn immediately at the start. However, it's completely underwhelming in every other section of the game both as a dead flip and a late game draw. So I agree with your analysis and wouldn't recommend adding it back to your list unless you're already going with a more noncreature-heavy route.
As for Dominaria, I'm working on a detailed analysis of the set for the deck and don't want to give too much away, but I can confirm that Zhalfrin Void will be in our list for obvious reasons
I know you've said you like to avoid bad flips, especially anything that can't be otherwise recurred, but boy, Mana Echoes has been an absolute house for me and I highly recommend taking it for a spin. It can often flip 1/4 to 1/2 your deck into play (depending on how lucky you are in hitting token producers). Last Friday I netted 40 mana off this on turn 5.
Also, what advice or other cards might you recommend if you were to take this deck in a less combo focused direction. My LSG has points system that penalizes infinite combos. So for instance I'm testing Throne of the God-Pharaoh in place of Thornbite Staff.
Thanks
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
Netherborn Phalanx - If people are flooding the board with creatures/tokens in your meta this can just one shot people. Obviously not a great early flip.
Anathemancer - Similar to Phalanx but for non-basic lands.
Guiltfeeder - Can hit for a lot late game and comes with some evasion.
If you want to flip some large creatures Ignition Team and Nighthowler tend to be quite large.
If you're on the go wide plan yourself, Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ogre Battledriver seem good.
Similarly, Archetype of Finality makes your go wide strategy hard to attack into/block and combos well with Goblin Sharpshooter and similar cards.
Another random suggestion Soulbright Flamekin can turn 6 mna into 8 mana and give your creatures trample in the process.
Hopefully one of those random suggestions was helpful.
Thank you so much! It was definitely a big deal to finally reach primer status I haven't considered Mana Echoes, but I'm interested in the synergy it offers. It's true that hitting a token producer like Siege-Gang Commander and/or Marionette Master can pretty much end a game with this card. However, I feel the card falls into the same category as Braid of Fire for me. It's immensely powerful to draw and have in your starting hand, but can end up muddying the waters while flipping. Granted, it's not near as bad of a late game draw as Braid, but it also concerns me that it takes the entirety of turn four (which is usually the first flip turn) and will immediately draw the attention of the table when it comes out.
So because of this build's philosophy, I'm probably going to pass on it. BUT I've been contemplating building a goblin tribal version of Grenzo, and you better believe this card will go into that build!
To answer your second question, this deck can definitely function without its infinite combos. I would start by removing the following cards:
- Thornbite Staff
- Lightning Crafter OR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
- Zealous Conscripts OR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
I would also consider removing/replacing Ashnod's Altar since it enables a ton of infinite loops. You could replace it with Phyrexian Altar as a less efficient, non-infinite sac outlet.
I would then look through my Alternate Picks list and consider which ones work best for what you want to accomplish. I would specifically recommend Balthor the Defiled as a way to recur your creatures since you're going to be more reliant on a board presence in the absence of infinites. As a side note, I like your inclusion of Throne of the God-Pharaoh as a win-condition. This deck can do a lot of tapping, and this in combination with Furystoke Giant is bonkers.
Thanks for your help in providing suggestions for non-combo players! I particularly love your recommendation of Netherborn Phalanx and will be adding it to my Alternate Picks list since it can destroy "go-wide" strategies, and the transmute can find a lot of a good stuff like Duplicant or Workhorse.
• Cabal Stronghold – This land is great and definitely worth adding. I don’t run Cabal Coffers because I never want to draw it as a dead land. However, Cabal Stronghold will always provide at least one mana and can only ramp as the game goes on. It also works great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (counting only basics that become swamps) and Crypt Ghast.
• Deathbloom Thallid – Anything that provides additional saccable creatures is strong, but this card unfortunately just has better substitutions. If you need another creature like this in your list, run Marsh Flitter instead.
• Garna, the Bloodflame – Initially seems great, but has a couple of key flaws. First, it’s a terrible blind flip as it essentially does nothing a majority of the time. Second, even when it does work, it puts the creatures in your hand which is never where we want them. Pass.
• Gilded Lotus – Expensive mana investment that adds to our noncreature flips. Not going to say it’s never worth including, but I’ve already chosen to pass over this before and will continue to do so.
• Goblin Chainwhirler – If you have a meta with a very heavy token deck, this can be a nice addition. But overall, this card doesn’t have enough of an effect to warrant its inclusion.
• Goblin Warchief – Makes our goblins have haste and cost 1 less. However, we don’t have enough goblins to make this vital and we still don’t like casting from hand. Play in a goblin tribal build of Grenzo; otherwise, there are better options.
• Mox Amber – I pulled one in my first pack in the prerelease…unfortunately, it’s just not good enough to be worth adding an additional noncreature card.
• Memorial to Folly – We don’t usually like casting things from hand, but if we have no other options, having recursion on a land is pretty good. But personally, I’d rather run Volrath's Stronghold as it can also potentially set up a scry.
• Memorial to Ruin – Additional land destruction on a land…that costs 5 mana….meh….Wasteland’s strictly better.
• Skittering Surveryor – Can work as a substitute to Pilgrim's Eye, but the flying is slightly better than the extra toughness.
• Windgrace Acolyte – Interesting flip as it could potentially set up a graveyard for some sweet recursion. But I believe the effect to be slightly weaker than most of our other flips…So while I’d like to try this creature out, I can’t see any creature worth removing for him.
• Whisper, Blood Liturgist – The more I look at this card, the more I want to try it. I’ve been interested in running Hell's Caretaker, but hate that it limits the effect to the Upkeep Phase. So Whisper’s effect can be done at instant speed while having a slightly more expensive cost (which is minimal for this deck). Also provides some potentially interesting lines of play with Thornbite Staff.
• Zhalfirin Void – And now it’s time for the most powerful card in the set and the only card I knew would be added the instant I saw it. An untapped land that provides a free scry! That’s it, and it’s amazing. A free scry is always great value in this deck, and the land can tap immediately. 10/10, would add again.
That’s it! I hope this was helpful, and please let me know if I missed any other interesting cards in the set that you feel would be great additions. Thanks as always for joining me in the dungeon
I thought I would throw in a couple of card suggestions that I've been thinking about:
-Goblin Ringleader - I know we aren't really trying to play cards from our hand, but most of the goblins are small enough to cast pretty cheap and it has the big upside in that it allows us to arrange the rest on the bottom of our library.
-Pentavus - it could just be a 5/5 that pumps out a few 1/1 fliers, but with Ashnod's Altar, a digger piece, and grenzo it can generate infinite mana. Add a Deathbringer Thoctar to the board and that'll turn into straight damage.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/3740-grenzo-corrupt-screw
Thanks for the suggestions, Darkaxe11990!
- Manakin - This is probably strictly better with the 1 additional power. The reason I personally chose to run Hedron Crawler was because I had a spare foil lying around But I might as well update the list to reflect this slightly better creature.
- Boggart Harbinger - The initial reason I didn't run this card is because we had limited Scry options and thus, putting the goblin on top is less effective then just putting it into the hand. However, with the recent additional scry options added, this might serve as a better alternative. I'm going to switch this in and test it out.
- Overeager Apprentice/Skirge Familiar - I'm not too sure about Overeager Apprentice as we already have two creatures in the deck that do the same effect with no additional cost. However, Skirge Familiar has been on my radar for a long time, and I think I do need to finally give him a test run.
So overall, great suggestions, and I really appreciate your input!
Hi Gruagach! Glad to hear the primer has inspired you to join us Dungeoneers! I've personally found that effects like Goblin Ringleader can be feast or famine in this deck; and while the occasional crazy top 4 may occur, it feels far worse to put 3 lands and a Sol Ring on the bottom (which I've had happen several times). Honestly, if you want this kind of effect, I'd recommend running Clone Shell. I think it's way more flexible in not only doing the same function, but also can either cheat out another creature or remove a land that would otherwise be a dead flip.
As for Pentavus I always welcome more infinite combos. And really, the hardest part with this deck is finding a way to balance the infinite combo pieces with the value creatures. I'll take a look at the list, but have a feeling he may end up in the Alternate Picks List as an additional combo if you want one Thanks again for the suggestions! And good luck with your current list.
You state that you're only running Ravenous Baboons because you don't want to drop the cash on Goblin Settler, a position I totally understand. I assume the desire for the Settler is his Goblin synergy, but if it's the power upgrade you covet, have you considered Avalanche Riders? He's got the same mana cost and etb, but he's kind enough to sac himself in case you're missing an outlet. He's also got haste, but from your description of how you play the deck, I doubt that's relevant. On a personal note, I actually run the Baboons in Alesha specifically because they're not as strong as the Rider. Lots of the players at my LGS are at a medium level, or lower, of play experience and I don't want them to even fear that I'm coming for all their lands. They do accept that there are some lands powerful enough to warrant destruction though, so I find the Baboons a happy middle ground.
Is there a reason you run Myr Retriever over Junk Diver? Since your strategy makes the 1 extra mana cost moot, isn't a flying chump blocker just better?
And my final comment is actually a rules correction for you regarding Corpse Connoisseur. You state that "you can also sac him and Unearth him as many times as you can pay in the turn", but this is incorrect. If you use his Unearth ability, he will indeed exile himself at eot, but the rules for Unearth also include "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." This clause exists specifically to thwart these types of shennanigans. The only way around that text is to either counter the delayed trigger (with something like Stifle), flicker it (with something like Conjurer's Closet), phase it out (with something like Teferi's Veil), or end the turn and clear the stack (with something like Sundial of the Infinite). When I built my Sedris, the Traitor King deck I made sure to master the rules of Unearth, as well as how to break them. It's an easy enough detail to gloss over, especially for just one card in your deck. Any normal graveyard looping engine works the same as for any other creature, you've just got to keep Unearth out of it.
But please don't think the above rules lawyering in any way detracts from my appreciation of the deck you've built. It's a masterpiece, and is a great write up for anyone who's interested in giving the slot machine a pull!
Thanks for the correction, EbonRose! I made sure to update the card's description to avoid the incorrect ruling, and I appreciate you for pointing it out
You hit the nail on the head regarding Ravenous Baboons. I specifically run it as a more casual friendly LD answer since it can only target non-basics. But I probably should update the list to include Avalanche Riders instead if others want a more optimized list. I'll work on switching that one in with the next update!
As for Junk Diver vs Myr Retriever, it's really a matter of preference. One serves as a flying chump blocker; the other is cheaper to cast from hand if drawn. I've personally chosen the Myr for the cheaper cost because while CMC usually is moot in the deck, this is one creature that you'll want to cast from hand immediately if your Ashnod's Altar, Soldevi Digger or Tel-Jilad Stylus were destroyed; and because mana maximization is so important to this deck, I've chosen the cheaper costed one. But I will add in Junk Diver to the Alternate Picks list as a replacement in case one worries more about flyers getting through!
Thanks again for the correction and suggestions!!
Hey Darkaxel! I've already made a few updates to the deck based off of some of your suggestions. You can see a change history log at the bottom of the primer. I'm still testing Boggart Harbringer and Skirge Familiar. Haven't had the chance to see either of them in action yet, but I'll keep play testing and eventually I'll run into them
As for the update with Avalanche Riders, I'm saving that for after I've play tested the above cards so I can make changes in batches instead of a bunch of minor changes.
Also we have an AMAZING new addition to our deck in C19 with Meteor Golem.
We finally have an enchantment answer, dungeoneers!!!
It feels wrong to NOT run such a strong combo enabler; it's like playing Niv-Mizzet without any Curiosity effects. But is it worth the slot in our deck?
Secondary question, what do people think about Nim Deathmantle? It goes infinite with Workhorse or Ashnod's Altar + half of our deck. It can protect Grenzo (or any important creature) from removal and increase his power. It's a cheap artifact that can be sac'd with Goblin Welder...But it's a hefty mana sink when we already want to spend any spare mana on Grenzo activations.
Same problem. It works REALLY well with a ton of cards we're already running, but is it worth playing?
Hey GameThree! It's never too late to join the party! Here's my thoughts on your suggestions!
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - I admit he's very strong and does enable a lot of combos, but he breaks the major rule of my build which is no creatures above 3 power. This is to maximize speed and efficiency, and having an extra dead flip that requires an additional card to generate any value goes against this decks core philosophy; instant value. I won't discourage you from running him yourself, but I personally have chosen to pass on him.
- Nim Deathmantle - I can't believe I've never thought of this one. It's cheap, it enables combos, and it serves as protection for Grenzo while also keeping him at 3+ power! I typically turn down noncreature cards, but this one's an exception as it's exceptionally powerful with all that it offers. I'm definitely going to test this out.
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll probably have to add that additional combo in as it seems I did forget to list it. As for the landcount, this deck is one that loves drawing nothing but lands. We want mana fast and lots of it. The reason is because unlike other decks using their mana for value, we have to prioritize flips, and the more the better. So I've found this land count to be extremely consistent and rewarding.
As for the suggestions:
- Illusionist's Bracers - It's good, no doubt, but I'm unsure about running it. It's a heavy 5 mana investment that immediately draws hate. You better believe the instant you try to equip this, someone is targeting Grenzo. For those reasons alone, I kind of want to shy away from this pick.
- Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker - Really not the right list for this guy. He only targets creatures with 1 power and we run a lot of 2-3 power creatures. Plus, it's at the end of the turn, thus making it extremely slow for what this deck wants to do.
- Opal Palace - Really no reason to make Grenzo bigger, and it's just an additional mana investment that would be better spent on flips.
Battlebond
Honestly, as much as I love the set, there wasn't much love for Grenzo here. But there is one amazing (albeit, not exciting) card, and one potential add.
- Luxury Suite - Run it. No reason not to. This is going to replace Cabal Stronghold in my list as it hasn't been living up to expectations recently.
- Victory Chimes - Interesting ramp that potentially increases our flips by 1 for each opponent! I'm considering replacing Rakdos Signet for this.
M19
Whew boy, this set gave us the card we all needed in Rakdos and will be your most abusable tool in Grenzo. I'm already in love.
- Meteor Golem - We have enchantment removal bois. Or removal for anything else you need. Run this card; there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be.
- Goblin Trashmaster - Goblin lord, sac outlet, destroys artifacts...what? Absolutely an amazing addition to our deck to add some instant artifact hate when needed.
- Desecrated Tomb - The least likely card to make it in the list, but thought it deserved an honorable mention. With all of the recursion that you do, this artifact could generate a ton of value. And with Ashnod's Altar it creates a plethora of infinites. But I feel like it's slow, doesn't generate instant value, and has the potential to be a dead card.
There's my takes on the cards I think are worth running in this deck! I'll be posting an update to the list soon!
Also, I'm not running these cards myself, but I was wondering what your opinions on Soldevi Adnate and Kozilek's Translator are. I think I might prefer Kozilek's Translator to Treasonous Ogre or Victory Chimes
1x Anger
1x Apprentice Necromancer
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Burnished Hart
1x Canal Dredger
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
1x Corpse Connoisseur
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Dark Confidant
1x Dualcaster Mage
1x Epitaph Golem
1x Faceless Butcher
1x Goblin Chirurgeon
1x Goblin Matron
1x Goblin Welder
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Humble Defector
1x Ingot Chewer
1x Iron Myr
1x Junktroller
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Kozilek's Translator
1x Leaden Myr
1x Magus of the Wheel
1x Magus of the Will
1x Maralen of the Mornsong
1x Metallic Mimic
1x Millikin
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Olivia, Mobilized for War
1x Palladium Myr
1x Pawn of Ulamog
1x Phyrexian Delver
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x Ravenous Chupacabra
1x Shriekmaw
1x Skirge Familiar
1x Soldevi Adnate
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Treasonous Ogre
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Viscera Seer
1x Zealous Conscripts
1x Cathartic Reunion
1x Dread Return
1x Faithless Looting
1x Gamble
1x Living Death
1x Wheel of Fortune
Artifact
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Chrome Mox
1x Heartstone
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
Instant
1x Chaos Warp
1x Entomb
Land
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Buried Ruin
1x Command Beacon
1x Command Tower
1x Crypt of Agadeem
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Graven Cairns
1x High Market
1x Howltooth Hollow
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Luxury Suite
1x Marsh Flats
1x Mortuary Mire
1x Mountain
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Polluted Delta
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Shadowblood Ridge
1x Smoldering Marsh
1x Spinerock Knoll
1x Sulfurous Springs
7x Swamp
1x Temple of Malice
1x Temple of the False God
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Some things I'm playing that you aren't that I swear by:
Soldevi Adnate - This card is so damn good. It makes an insane amount of mana over the course of a game if you can feed it things like shriekmaw and solemn. It's a recent addition and it's been MVP in several games. I also give heavy preference to 2 CMC creatures that are good to hit off grenzo, since you can also play them on t2 and feel good about it.
Kozilek's Translator, Skirge Familiar - Translator is great, basically 'taps' for 4 mana a turn cycle. Skirge familar is similar, and it's slightly less busted without magus of the wheel/wheel of fortune, but free mana is free mana.
Godo/Sword of Feast and Famine - The Godo/SoFaF package gets you so many free wins. SoFaF is already great in grenzo since you can play it when the table's shields are down, get your mana investment back, and then threaten to have double mana the next turn. When Godo is put into play on the end step and the table's shields are down, things get nutty. Since godo gets to attack twice essentially the next turn, you're going to be able to triple up your mana. It pretty much always either wins the game or puts you way ahead. It does put a huge target on your head, but I'm usually the target out of the gate anyway in my group when I bust Grenzo out
Godo also grabs thornbite staff for you as well when you need it, which seems pretty clutch.
Shriekmaw - Like i said, I give high preference to creatures that aren't embarassing to have to pay retail for, which means I'd much rather play shriekmaw over something like duplicant since it's just way more lean.
Balthor, the Defiled - You're not running Balthor?!?! Man, balthor is one of the single best cards in the deck, and can really help you clinch the win in those games where Grenzo has died too many times to feasibly recast. It's also super one-sided. Definitely give this one a try.
Maralen of the Mornsong - This card is the nuts too since we break its symmetry so hard. Put it into play on opponent's end step, grim tutor for ashnod's altar/wheel of fortune and watch the table cry. It's also really funny to reanimate or put into play in response to other peoples' wheels/windfalls/draw spells
Magus of the Wheel - Really solid out to start hitting more land drops, pairs really well with skirge familiar and anger. Can make infinite mana with epitaph golem if you have that setup.
Chaos Warp - Even though it's not a creature, I feel like it's really nice to have an out to anything, including pesky things like rest in peace and suppression field.
Faithless looting/cathartic reunion - Again, not creatures, but they look at so many cards in the pre-grenzo turns and we care so little about discarding our nerds that they're really close to 1-mana draw-two and 2-mana draw-three. I'm inclined to keep pretty much any hand where they're castable in my opener
Goblin Chirurgeon - Grenzo's personal bodyguard and another goblin sac outlet. Wouldn't leave home without it.
Humble Defector/Dark Confidant - Our deck is super mana hungry and hitting land drops is crucial. They're both 2 mana, pre-Grenzo plays that can help you hit some extra lands. I don't worry about the downside of Humble Defector since it already did its job, and we also have many ways to sac it with the trigger on the stack later in the game. Plus you can even sweet talk your way into getting it back sometimes.
Chrome Mox/Gemstone Caverns - Probably the single best cards in the deck to have in your opening hand. t2 grenzo is so clutch and gets you started so much faster, and we have infinite nerds in our hand to pitch to them.
Inventor's Fair - Land, so very little cost to adding it to the deck. Tutors up game winning combo pieces like ashnod's altar and metallic mimic
Crypt of Agadeem - Can make some extra mana, little cost to include
Howltooth Hollow - Spinerock knoll #2, even if you never activate it (and I actually have before, thanks to maralen + wheel!)
But yeah, definitely interested in trying some new stuff as well since i still have some cards in my list i'm disappointed by like Chainer and Olivia. I see the power of Lightning Crafter after reading your writeup, definitely a card I had written off before.
My shortlist right now is:
Moggcatcher
Imperial Recruiter
Yahenni
Mana Crypt
Whisper, Blood Liturgist
Lightning Crafter
Azra Oddsmaker
Zhalfirin Void
Path of Ancestry
I also would like to give skullclamp another chance. Also gonna figure out if thornbite staff is worth it in my build, since it has an impressive number of combos.
Also pretty excited for Goblin Trashmaster (damn this card is great!) and Meteor Golem out of M19.
You may be right on the the call to replace one of these two pieces. I've been considering Soldevi Digger anyways since it's limited in only grabbing the top card of the GY which can screw me over sometimes. Also, it doesn't have a foil version, so it looks out of place in my completely foiled out list. I'll test running this card and place of it and see how things go.
As for the Soldevi Adnate and Kozilek's Translator, I really like these cards and definitely need to test them out.
However, I would strongly suggest that you do not replace Treasonous Ogre for them. The Ogre has won me so many games since his ability can be activated as many times as you'd like as long as you have the life. Getting him out as your first flip, can often mean the end of the game right there. And I can't tell you how many games I've gone down to 1 life with this guy and won because of the amount of mana he produces alone.
Thanks for the suggestions, URLSweatshirt! I'll comment on each one of them below. The major reason for differences I see in others' lists are because I follow a strict philosophy with each card I add:
1. Can be hit by Grenzo's ability (creature)
3. Does not remove available mana for flips
So based off of these principles, here are my thoughts on the cards you suggested.
- Soldevi Adnate / Kozilek's Translator / Skirge Familiar - all cards that were recently suggested to me and will enter the testing phase. I like them a lot, and have to play some games to see which cards they outperform (this list is always hard to cut cards from).
- Godo, Bandit Warlord / Sword of Feast and Famine - I haven't ever thought of this guy or the sword, but I do admit the concept's pretty interesting. The most attractive thing to me is the tutoring of Thornbite Staff since that's one of the most busted cards in the deck. I'll need to try this out and see how it does, but it's gonna be hard to find two cards to remove for this.
- Shriekmaw - was one of the first cards in my initial version of the deck, but it has two major problems. First, it's limited selection can really mess you up, so Ravenous Chupacabra is strictly better. Second, it just destroys which is much less helpful in a meta of GY recursion which is why I wouldn't ever replace Duplicant for it.
- Balthor the Defiled - Was actually in the initial posting of this list, but I removed it because I had never once gotten him off in my plethora of games. I'm never going to say Balthor is a bad card, he can be amazing in Grenzo decks, but I've relegated him to my "Alternate Picks" portion since he's never worked for me.
- Maralen of the Mornsong - I try to have all of my creatures create instant value when they ETB, and Maralen's a little slow while also potentially helping my opponents answer me if she's not quickly sacced. I'll add her to my alternate picks list, but I've never been a fan of Maralen as I never like giving my opponents answers.
- Magus of the Wheel - I'm not too keen on this one. Tt breaks the philosophy of instant value with this list and only offers draw (which this deck doesn't particularly care for). I'm inclined to skip it.
- Chaos Warp - Noncreature, nonrecurrable which already makes it very low on my list. I tried running this in my very first list, but ended up dead flipping it too many times. Thankfully, Meteor Golem will remove the need for this card as we now have a recurrable creature with enchantment removal. Also, Rest in Peace doesn't stop Grenzo's ability since Grenzo doesn't care about the card's location after flipping it, so GY replacement effects only slow down my combos, but they definitely don't neuter Grenzo like a lot of players think.
- Faithless Looting / Cathartic Reunion - Same issue as above. I have to minimize noncreature, nonrecurrable cards to avoid dead flips, and if the card doesn't provide immense value, then it's difficult to be worth running in this list.
- Goblin Chirurgeon - Like this card. Will definitely put in on my testing list.
- Humble Defector / Dark Confidant - I haven't really prioritized draw at all in this list since drawing our creatures is almost always bad. I totally understand your sentiment about ensuring land drops, but honestly, I can't remember the last time I've been manascrewed in this deck as we have so much ramp and run a higher amount of lands with a "lower curve" (Grenzo and flip).
- Chrome Mox / Gemstone Caverns - I like the Caverns as a quicker Grenzo is always good. As for the Mox, this probably needs to replace my signet for faster and free mana.
- Inventor's Fair - Also love this card and will try to find a colorless land spot to replace it with.
- Crypt of Agadeem - I'll have to watch my graveyard closer in my next few games to see if this is worth putting in. Because of the inordinate amount of recursion, I feel like my graveyard is rarely completely full unless I'm playing against Superfriends.
- Howltooth Hollow - Was recently removed because I've slowly grown to dislike the fixing effects more and more. I've had too many situations where I've put 3 lands and a noncreature artifact on the bottom. So I chose to take this and Clone Shell out. The reason I've kept Spinerock Knoll is because it's condition is pretty easily met, and thus exiling an Ashnod's Altar doesn't feel as bad.
Overall, you've given me a lot to think about and a lot of new cards to test out, so I'll probably have to add a "In Testing" list to the main post so I can keep track of it all. Thanks for the suggestions!
Removed:
• Ravenous Chupacabra - Our replacement for this is strictly better.
• Soldevi Digger - This engine is limited in only being able to grab the top card of your graveyard which has screwed me over several times. I believe it is being replaced with a superior engine that offers more versatility.
• Cabal Stronghold - Massively underperforming. Don't like it and its value has dropped with the amount of nonbasics we now include.
• Ravenous Baboons - The replacement is strictly better.
• Mindclaw Shaman - The card has underperformed for me as well, which is very sad to me. I constantly find myself picking a player that has no more instants/sorceries or has a worthless spell. This card will definitely stay on my radar though as it has performed well in the past, and it has a good chance of being rotated back in if my hand-hate seems to be lacking.
Added:
• Meteor Golem - Welcome to the future boys and girls. Rakdos now has enchantment removal...anything removal. This card is bonkers and can be an easily abusable source of versatile destruction. I love this card and can't ever forsee it being removed.
• Nim Deathmantle - This card provides a digger loop in one single cost (especially helpful if Grenzo is in the command zone). It also has the added benefit of being a failsafe for Grenzo. Boardwipe? No problem! Grenzo's back, and with the +2/+2 from the equipment, he's still able to flip the entire deck despite losing his +1/+1 counter. This card literally won me my last game by keeping Grenzo alive after two board wipes. Just confirmed everything I had hoped this card would be.
• Inventors' Fair - Free life gain and a free tutor for our busted artifacts. This land was long overdue.
• Avalanche Riders - Hits every land for the same price as the baboons.
• Goblin Trashmaster - An additional sac outlet, buffs Grenzo to stay at 3+ power, and destroys artifacts. Great and versatile card that will make a powerful inclusion in the deck.
While we miss out on the haste we get a buff in power/toughness and dodge the echo cost.
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
Definitely good alternatives! I'll place both of them in the alternative picks list. I personally will stick with Avalanche Riders since I prefer to keep creatures at 2 power or lower whenever possible (in case Grenzo loses his +1 at some point).
Honestly, this is not a card I've ever considered, but it does seem hilarious. The issue I have with it for this list is the cost of casting and then activating which could instead be used for flips that would do so much more. However, I am working on a more casual friendly version with no infinites and will probably throw the Goblin Charbelcher into it for kicks and giggles.
Thanks again for the great deck, I'm building it in paper now!