MTG Salvation

Quote from Kuratudu »

Why no Propaganda?

Cards like Propaganda and Collective Restraint only effect creatures attacking you, so unfortunately doesn't effect opponents attacking planewalkers. So opponents don't have to pay mana to attack your Super Friends.

The only card I can think off that you can use to tax people mana this way is War Tax. But having to spend mana to do this each time doesn't seem good.

Quote from darrenhabib »

The only card I can think off that you can use to tax people mana this way is War Tax. But having to spend mana to do this each time doesn't seem good.

yea War tax is better when you have seedborn muse. (or awakening)

Of course, Paradox engine could also pull it off.

I'm gonna remove disk, like Jokulhaups and his brother, i have too much to lose playing it.

I'm definitely going to run Nexus of Fate from Core 2019 when it comes out. It's already got a price tag of $34, but my friends pointed out that it's an instant, which I had totally assumed it was a sorcery when I was reviewing the spoilers.

The implications for this is that you can be patient and wait for opponents end-of-turn to play it and it gives you a window to cast out a planewalker or two and you get two turns of activation's on these. Which can mean that you can get traction (locking down creatures, working to emblems, etc) which can be hard if you're behind. So it's a very good card when you are finding it hard to get a window to cast your planewalkers onto the board without them being attacked and killed without much value.

The problem with sorcery speed extra turns is that unless you already have planeswalker(s) in play or have the available extra mana to cast one, then you don't get as much value from them.

Plus it makes it extra hard for mill decks to get you naturally as you will always have a card in your deck to draw.

Early game expropriate is REALLY good.
I managed to get 4 extra turns off of it. Ulted both rowan and Will (first i got rowan's emblem, then i ulted will so i got two will emblems.
I then cast Time warp and got an extra two turns (And still had not used my last turn from expropriate. i did my two turns, and on the second time warp turn, i cast Beacon of tomorrows and Twincasted it. The others scooped it up.

I've never lost a game after resolving Expropriate. That card is monster.

Isn't Expropriate a Blatant Thievery + 2cc Time Warp?

Who is giving you extra turns? The card's "council dilemma" text shouldn't matter because no one should ever give you turns.

Quote from umtiger »

Isn't Expropriate a Blatant Thievery + 2cc Time Warp?

Who is giving you extra turns? The card's "council dilemma" text shouldn't matter because no one should ever give you turns.

the should not, but now and again they do. Who wants to give me an PW that is about to go off? Who wants to give me an Avacyn? Especially if i have big boom spells. or what about having an avacyn form one person and an ugin from another?

You have to keep in mind, sometimes one extra turn does not chnage the course of the game. I might end up just drawing a land on my extra turn.

that said, gaining 16 extra turns is quite different.

It can leave opponents in an awkward position, as often commander centric decks just can't afford to give up control of their generals, so you might get the extra turn from them.

I agree you should never give an extra turn, however rock-and-a-hard-place for particular board states.

Expropriate does have the advantage over Blatant Thievery of also not targeting, so you can get around hexproof and shroud.

Quote from darrenhabib »

It can leave opponents in an awkward position, as often commander centric decks just can't afford to give up control of their generals, so you might get the extra turn from them.

I agree you should never give an extra turn, however rock-and-a-hard-place for particular board states.

Expropriate does have the advantage over Blatant Thievery of also not targeting, so you can get around hexproof and shroud.

And worse case scenario. I steal lands to ramp myself up. (I stole a cabal coffers one game. And urborg was also on the field.)

Quote from umtiger »

Isn't Expropriate a Blatant Thievery + 2cc Time Warp?

Who is giving you extra turns? The card's "council dilemma" text shouldn't matter because no one should ever give you turns.

One would think that but every time I cast the card I get 3-4 extra turns. People get short sighted, their stuff wont even matter if I get 4 turns.

Alright I decided to add Mystic Confluence, its versatility is too good to not included.
You really want to maximize on mana curve plays leading up to Will or Rowan. This gives you an opportunity to cast it end-of-opponents-turn returning 3 creatures. It's 5 mana, so you expect to follow this up with Will probably to reduce 2 more creatures to 0/3, and this gives you a real window to get traction. Probably don't have to be spelling out it's merits, but is counterspell backup for other situations, and if cost reduced by Will [-2] ability, is 3 mana for draw 3 cards which isn't bad either.

Hard to remove cards but I decided on Vandalblast, as there are 4 other mass removal cards for artifacts in Cyclonic Rift, Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, Obliterate.

Added
+ Mystic Confluence

Removed
- Vandalblast

Cryptic Command is another card on my radar, but it is more awkward to use, as the tap down creatures still requires you to have UUU even if you use Will [-2] cost reduction. So it doesn't work all that well with casting a PW and being able to use it effectively to tap down opponent who has most threatening creatures. Even then you can only do one opponent, so on a board of creatures still hard to get it to give you the room needed to tick up PWs.

I am thinking Aetherflux Reservoir may have some value. With the cloud stone combo it could be game ending.

You need to put Voltaic key back in your deck. It was a game winner last night (Rowan emblem allowed me to make infinite colorless mana with Key and Sol ring. With the billions of colorless i was able to untap my colored mana rocks and then deserted temple also allowed me to untap Lands. Then with Sensei's top i was able to draw my deck and play everything.

all thanks to voltaic key (And well, Rowan's emblem. GOD IT IS SO POWERFUL) I don;t think WotC were thinking about it that hard when they made her. unaware of just how strong her emblem is.

Quote from umtiger »

Isn't Expropriate a Blatant Thievery + 2cc Time Warp?
Who is giving you extra turns? The card's "council dilemma" text shouldn't matter because no one should ever give you turns.

Quote from darrenhabib »

I agree you should never give an extra turn, however rock-and-a-hard-place for particular board states.

I wouldn't say never - it all depends on board state. We once killed the guy playing Expropriate by everyone giving him extra turns while Havoc Festival was in play. He didn't have the board state to kill us, and the upkeep triggers killed him during the extra turns. But, yeah, generally it's a bad idea.

Quote from Gashnaw »

You need to put Voltaic key back in your deck. It was a game winner last night (Rowan emblem allowed me to make infinite colorless mana with Key and Sol ring. With the billions of colorless i was able to untap my colored mana rocks and then deserted temple also allowed me to untap Lands. Then with Sensei's top i was able to draw my deck and play everything.

all thanks to voltaic key (And well, Rowan's emblem. GOD IT IS SO POWERFUL) I don;t think WotC were thinking about it that hard when they made her. unaware of just how strong her emblem is.

There are emblems just as broken if not more so than Rowan's such as Elspeth, Knight-Errant's, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's, and Tamiyo, Field Researcher's.

Quote from Gashnaw »

You need to put Voltaic key back in your deck. It was a game winner last night (Rowan emblem allowed me to make infinite colorless mana with Key and Sol ring. With the billions of colorless i was able to untap my colored mana rocks and then deserted temple also allowed me to untap Lands. Then with Sensei's top i was able to draw my deck and play everything.

all thanks to voltaic key (And well, Rowan's emblem. GOD IT IS SO POWERFUL) I don;t think WotC were thinking about it that hard when they made her. unaware of just how strong her emblem is.

You're right. The main reason I put in Pyramid of the Pantheon and Gilded Lotus was for the infinite colored mana you could get with Voltaic Key.

The other thing is that with Rowan emblem you can use Tezzeret the Seeker to get Voltaic Key AND Pyramid of the Pantheon. You just need to spend 3 to get Pyramid of the Pantheon on 3 brick counters and then you can get infinite colored mana.

Part of the reason I put in Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace was so Voltaic Key was better as well. Obviously it's nice with Tezzeret the Seeker to put in the artifact lands as you can [0] him to get mana fixing.
With Voltaic Key and the colorless mana sources like Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, you can get infinite colorless. But also if you have Seat of the Synod and/or Great Furnace you can then get infinite colored mana by filtering through them with the Voltaic Key. Izzet Signet also allows you to do this.

I've also decided to add Basalt Monolith as you can get the infinite with Rowan emblem or Rings of Brighthearth, but also it's just fast mana, which always helps with two commanders costing 6 mana.

Added
+ Voltaic Key
+ Basalt Monolith

Removed
- Chandra, Pyromaster
- The Locust God

Quote from DementedKirby »

Quote from Gashnaw »

You need to put Voltaic key back in your deck. It was a game winner last night (Rowan emblem allowed me to make infinite colorless mana with Key and Sol ring. With the billions of colorless i was able to untap my colored mana rocks and then deserted temple also allowed me to untap Lands. Then with Sensei's top i was able to draw my deck and play everything.

all thanks to voltaic key (And well, Rowan's emblem. GOD IT IS SO POWERFUL) I don;t think WotC were thinking about it that hard when they made her. unaware of just how strong her emblem is.

There are emblems just as broken if not more so than Rowan's such as Elspeth, Knight-Errant's, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's, and Tamiyo, Field Researcher's.

Very true, but you cannot use them as commanders.

3 things i wish to mention about Rowan and Will
-As commanders you have access to play them over an over.
-Unlike most PW play, Will and Rowan can be cast again and their emblem can be obtained again.
-You have access to 2 planewalkers, they synergize and again they are always available.

If PWs could be used as commander through normal means (Like using Knight Errant as your commander) then yes, Will and rowan are not as broken. The fact is, You cannot (legally) use knight errant or Tezzeret or Tamiyo, so as Commanders they are very unbalanced. (I mean sure there are other OP commanders (like Meren) but that does not mean that careful though was put into Rowan and Will. I like them, they are fun and I am glad i can use them as a commander, but Rowan is broken.

why remove locust god? i mean overall, i feel he is worth keeping. (then again, he seldom gets played and does not seem to produce enough blockers.)

also my update in the past two days

Added:
-Mu Yanling

Removed:
-Nevinyrral's Disk

Added:
-Basalt Monolith

Removed:
-Mu Yanling

Quote from Gashnaw »

why remove locust god? i mean overall, i feel he is worth keeping. (then again, he seldom gets played and does not seem to produce enough blockers.)

A hard decision for sure. At this stage I've just got to look at the more expensive cards. It was a toss up between Meishin, the Mind Cage and it.
There is just a little less remove for enchantments and because I'm running Jokulhaups and Obliterate, Meishin, the Mind Cage seems like the better choice.
Even though The Locust God, would return to my hand after those big removal cards, recasting it is too slow after losing all your mana.

Why did you try using Mu Yanling?

Quote from DementedKirby »

Why did you try using Mu Yanling?

for fun. It was not a serious pick by any means. I had removed sisk and needed to fill teh slot. Mu Yanling was fun but she did nothing (Didn't even draw her)

Why no Contagion Engine? Have you tried it?

Quote from Kuratudu »

Why no Contagion Engine? Have you tried it?

I have tried the card before in an Atraxa Super Friends deck. The honest answer is that it is quite slow. In Atraxa, Praetors' Voice you can get extra value with putting more -1/-1 on those creatures.
But even with this I found it a pretty marginal card, given that it requires so much mana to sink into casting it, then activating it.

But having said that I have been finding Inexorable Tide pretty awkward. Like often you would have wanted to put counters on the planewalker you are casting, but it's a "cast" trigger. At least with Contagion Engine, even though you need the 4, at least you can get opportunities where you can put extra loyalty counters in the same turn as casting the planewalker.

I think in a build with Paradox Engine, I'd replace Inexorable Tide with Contagion Engine. I'm starting to head that way, so don't be surprised to see me do this switch in the future, as I'm leaning towards more artifact mana and PE.

Quote from darrenhabib »

Quote from Kuratudu »

Why no Contagion Engine? Have you tried it?

I have tried the card before in an Atraxa Super Friends deck. The honest answer is that it is quite slow. In Atraxa, Praetors' Voice you can get extra value with putting more -1/-1 on those creatures.
But even with this I found it a pretty marginal card, given that it requires so much mana to sink into casting it, then activating it.

But having said that I have been finding Inexorable Tide pretty awkward. Like often you would have wanted to put counters on the planewalker you are casting, but it's a "cast" trigger. At least with Contagion Engine, even though you need the 4, at least you can get opportunities where you can put extra loyalty counters in the same turn as casting the planewalker.

I think in a build with Paradox Engine, I'd replace Inexorable Tide with Contagion Engine. I'm starting to head that way, so don't be surprised to see me do this switch in the future, as I'm leaning towards more artifact mana and PE.

given that i am using Paradox Engine i may look into replacing tide with C.Engine.

Nexus of Fate is in the deck.