I've been spending a ton of time looking at Windgrace and I think most of the creature centric strategies are a total mistake (gitrog, omnath, bobo). I think Windgrace is going to be at his best when he prefers an empty battlefield - which means more sweepers and spells and fewer creatures that don't generate value or sac themselves.
Stuff like Worm Harvest or whatever feels like a better wincon than trying to win with keeping dudes on the battlefield at all. Or even just do what I do with Gitrog - set up a big torment or a stream of eldrazi cast triggers (volrath's stronghold+sac outlet+Eldrazi).
I can see why the synergy of Gitrog for example is a real hard thing to give up, but casting 5 mana creatures that die to removal is not really what Windgrace asks for I don't think. Gitrog is awesome in the Gitrog deck where you can just keep recasting him (hell I cast him 4 times in a row the other night) but not so much when he goes to the yard when he dies. Same with Omnath and Bobo and so on.
I have started coming to that conclusion about wanting an empty board state too. I already cut Borborygmos above and Omnath has almost never gotten me anything worth pointing out. I do think the utility of Gitrog is well worth the place in this deck as it lets me draw 3 from Lord Windgrace, I have ways to get lands back, he draws me an extra card each turn, and so on. He does eat removal, but that is a price to pay for that particular effect. I don't think I have really ever attacked with him so he certainly isn't there to deal damage with (as his primary function anyway).
The sweepers comment is where I am starting to lean towards. I don't like Worm Harvest for a couple reasons, but it might be decent. I would prefer to simply get big creatures that work on their own and beat down with them after clearing the board of everything else. Ulvenwald Hydra and Realm Seekers work for that along with a couple other options. I have the reanimation needed to make that a viable option as that is often how I end up winning.
Worm Harvest is more of an example of a resilient wincon that doesn't need other stuff and works well on an empty board that you don't mind re-emptying. Not sure I love it either because it's quite slow.
The thing with Hydra, Gitrog, Realm seekers is that they're mostly less efficient than other ways of drawing cards and functionally what they do is draw cards (or find cards). For the most part Hydra and Realm Seekers are weaker than Tempt with Discovery or Hour of Promise (and similarly much worse than sylvan scrying or even expedition map). Gitrog similarly is mostly weaker than say, Scroll Rack or Top, Sylvan Library, or Wheel of Fortune, or really any draw spell. He just doesn't do enough for 5 mana as a part of the 75 I don't think. Even Mirri's Guile is probably better.
I like Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya a lot as well in windgrace because of how easily and regularly you can shift the top of your deck. And they tend to draw a hair less hate and are cheaper. But neither is an autoinclude (though much better with top/scroll rack effects).
Fundamentally I think a good sized Torment of Hailfire is probably the most efficient wincon for this kinda deck, but I like single really powerful creatures as well. Eldrazi are especially good because you can find Eye of Ugin easily, which is what I do in Gitrog.
When I was playing stuff like Titania in Gitrog it just painted a target on my back or generated non-flying blockers. I imagine it's much the same in Windgrace in a marginally competitive meta, and even worse when you have to sweep her.
I can see the appeal of say, Ulvenwald Hydra because it blocks fliers. Same with World Breaker (and it's recurrable removal).
I think I'd advocate mostly for eye of ugin and torment as the primary wincons, rather than just torment or whatever. Just spamming whichever giant Eldrazi you want is a lot more consistent than trying to set up 'bash with a bunch of plant tokens' in my opinion.
YMMV of course, but I don't view this as a midrange deck. So random attack steps trying to push through a lethal board state seems to conflict with what you want to do.
In the context of this league, against the other expected commanders from the 2018 products, I think Windgrace plays the traditional Jund role pretty well.
- Unless the Izzet player loads up on mana rocks, you will naturally have the biggest pile of mana at your disposal every turn.
- You either quickly generate a large board full of landfall-tokens thanks to multiple fetches and ramp spells, or you cast massive X-based board wipes that opponents have a harder time dealing with because they have less lands than you do.
- Either way, you drop one haymaker after another, and Windgrace makes sure your hand stays full enough to keep dropping said haymakers until the sheer size of them causes the opponents to collapse under their weight.
- In the process, you probably make enemies out of the Bant and Izzet players because your board wipes naturally wipe out most/all of their artifacts/enchantments, and the game is usually won or lost based on their ability to come back from those massive losses.
Yeah I can see the argument for Titania in a competitive build that's going to use her as a combo finish essentially. In my experience it requires being really cutthroat. Same with in my Gitrog build honestly, I wound up cutting it because it's really medium at 5 mana if you're not going for the jugular--it accelerates the pace of the game and conflicts with the goal of grinding out a victory.
The thing to remember with Windgrace is you really don't need more of the "put lands from graveyard onto the battlefield" effect. Your command zone does that. So if you're not going to try to win with Titania tokens she's pretty medium (much worse than just playing Excavator or Crucible usually).
If you *are* going to try to win with Titania tokens it becomes a delicate balance of "can I jam a bunch of tokens when the board is empty before someone else rebuilds a bigger state and I have to wipe again?"
I do see your points for sure, not trying to discount the merit, just explain my reasoning.
Since our league has concluded, I have decided to move this into a deck that I would rather play in "normal" games. As such, I have removed the MLD package and updated a bunch of lands. I also added in a few creatures I had cut before along with a few that never made it in. Here is the complete list of changes for now. I do have 1 or 2 other cards I want to swap out but I don't know what I want to do with them yet:
Basically, I beefed up my lands and cut a few basics to make them fit. I was going to add Titania, but I have decided against her for now. She is decent, but not what I want for the deck for now. I think she is better in the MLD package which I have cut.
Otherwise, I just added Damnation for another wrath and Entomb to help get things in my graveyard as needed. Soul of New Phyrexia and Eldrazi are good as they work from the graveyard (more or less) and Life from the Loam early can help make sure I hit land drops even with discarding to Windgrace. The Eldrazi have been added to a) protect my graveyard as needed and b) give me an end game. Assassin's Trophy is a straight Swap for Terminate as I believe it to be much better.
I am going to find a place for Bazaar of Baghdad but I just haven't done it yet. I will likely not cut a land for it, and will probably cut some creature that isn't doing what I want. I have to look through the list again for that.
Looks good man I'd play Ceaseless Hunger though over infinite gyre I think. That double exile is grotesque.
Something I always found super good in Gitrog also was Emrakul, the Promised end. It's a bit of a dick move but it helps handle combo decks you can't beat very reliably otherwise (you can just execute their combo and win if you see it coming happens regularly).
You might like keeping say, a single wildfire effect to help buy some time but I think that's a matter of taste. Maybe Ember Swallower with the reanimation theme. Little more surgical than straight up sweeping.
Gonna be an advocate for the Sweeper/MLD strategy of Lord Windgrace.
I find that constantly sweeping the board of creatures and lands really helps with keeping your walkers alive. Heck, even just having windgrace himself post Obliterate or Jokulhaups is usually enough to win you the game. I have my deck list posted below if your interested in my strategy.
Basic strategy is to ramp, ramp, and then ramp some more. Once you have 1 or 2 walkers, just sweep the board nonstop. You have a bunch of removal, and your walkers USUALLY stick as long as you didn't draw attention to yourself really early.
Both of you make valid points on Ulamog. I like this one because it protects my graveyard but, unlike Karador (where I definitely prefer the old one to the new one) having my graveyard in my library is almost as bad as it being exiled. Or, to put it another way, I am not likely to lose much by someone exiling my graveyard other than potentially lands and if it is that big a deal for me to lose them, putting them into my library is unlikely to help me out.
So, I think I am going to try out The Ceaseless Hunger instead of Infinite Gyre. I will have to go about picking one up.
I like the mix of old kozilek and newlamog--gives you uncounterable ways to do things, and the annihilator trigger from Koz is very clutch for ending games too.
The mix of emrakul, newlamog and oldkoz is my jam, gives you ways to end the game in a variety of ways coupled with sac outlets/volrath's stronghold. Pretty pure inevitability there.
Also: LikeaCircus builds it largely how I would, though I would use an eldrazi package and more lands vs. the walker package, but really that's a matter of taste I think.
I would not play Nev disk, I think Oblivion Stone would be the better overall option there.. Here are my 3fold reasons why:
- It kills everything apart from lands (this can be considered a downside in a Walker version which I can understand). It can however put counters on your permanents to not get destroyed.
- Second point, it comes into play untapped. So you can use it right away (yes more mana intensive, but being able to use it right away outweighs this imo).
- And also it dodges things like Gaddock Teeg, if you need a sweeper vs something like that I would say Oblivion Stone would be the overall better card.
Another good one in that spot might be Perilous Vault. Reason why I mention that one is cause it Exiles. Yes it has downsides also alongside it's upsides. But being able to get rid of problems like Avacyn can be handy.
Liliana Vess imo is pretty lackluster.. She tutors a card to the top for 5 mana... Or she makes opponent discard a card, which is not always great. For the discard I would say even Liliana of the Veil is better... For search I would not play her, cause she is just to slow.. But that is my opinion..
About the Eldrazi, I agree on the 3 mentioned.. Those are imo the best ones.. Newlamog, Kozilek and Promised End.. They add versatility and are almost always going to help you close out games in many different situations.. Only other I would definitely include is World Breaker.. It's recursive removal.. On cast.. So helps against counter heavy decks also... It having reach and a decent sized body is just gravy..
Another point I would make is that I would play more lands than 37.. In my experience having a bit more helps you get to the lands you need more.. Yes we have mana ramp and many ways to get to those lands, but having more from my own experience has helped me won more games.. Windgrace can always discard a land if you really are getting to many...
Also from what I see there are many utility lands missing in that list above.. And no Crucible of Worlds nor Ramunap Excavator are pretty much a mistake I would say... Exploration and other such cards can help you get so far ahead with those..
But again, that is my opinion, based on my own experience with Land matters decks... Maybe it all works really wel like that, but I do think having more utility and more lands wil make it more stable personally...
The reason I play very very few utility lands, is simply because none of them live long enough to get use out of it. 95% of the time, I just ramp till I have some mana, play some walkers, then blow up EVERYTHING but the walkers. I don't run Crucible or Ramunap for the same reason, they just dont stick around anyways. I found that Instant or Sorcery ramp was far better, because if all my opponents saw me doing was ramping, I'd tend to not get focused as much. It's the main reason you don't see many artifacts in my list, as they will just get blown up after 1 or 2 uses.
There would be many thing I would change if I wasn't doing the MLD strategy, but I feel like this is the best way to use him. Although to be honest, it does draw alot of hate from players once they figure out what your up to. Very few people enjoy playing decks who blow up your lands.
I played this deck again last night and it worked reasonably well in one game. The games were against my own Ephara and Karametra decks. The first game I played, I kept a 2 land hand with 2 ramp spells expecting to draw a land at some point. In 5 draws, I did not draw a single land while Ephara got a turn 3 Venser followed up by a Kor Cartographer to keep ramping. A turn or 2 later, they cast Alms Collector followed up by a Timetwister and I just scooped since I would only have 1 card in hand. Karametra scooped as well.
The next game, Karametra changed to Gisela and it was a better game. Granted, Ephara was slow getting to their blue mana, but I was able to ramp a little and get Lord Windgrace down while ticking him up to 9. While doing so, I also had a Glacial Chasm on board. The Glacial Chasm ultimately won me the game.
I tried to get a Gitrog down, but Gisela had an Inferno Titan and Gisela. They kill the Gitrog Monster and killed Lord Windgrace a little later. They then dropped in an Elesh Norn which killed a lot of my things. One thing it didn't kill is World Shaper. This is important because they ended up trying destroy or get rid of my Glacial Chasm and I just cast Crop Rotation to get something else and make sure it went to my graveyard. They swung lethal at me and I sacrificed the World Shaper to get a bunch of lands, included Glacial Chasm back.
Over the next couple turns, I was able to get Chainer off of Protean Hulk which then got me Hulk and Ulvenwald Hydra from the grave. Luckily Chainer does not die to Elesh Norn. The Hydra came first to get my Urborg (so I had all the black mana I needed). I then sacrificed Hulk to get Ravenous Chupacabra to kill Elesh Norn and sacrificed the Hydra to Diamond Valley for life. I just kept looping these for a while until I killed Gisela's board (Ephara died to Gisela a few turns before this since they couldn't get through my Chasm).
In the end, I was able to swing with a big Hydra (I let the Chasm go to the graveyard obviously) and a couple other things like the Hulk to eventually win the game.
This game was basically all about the power of Glacial Chasm, especially against a damage-centric deck like Gisela. I think I got a little lucky that Gisela could kill Ephara since I think it is much harder for me to beat that deck than it is to beat Gisela.
This game was basically all about the power of Glacial Chasm, especially against a damage-centric deck like Gisela. I think I got a little lucky that Gisela could kill Ephara since I think it is much harder for me to beat that deck than it is to beat Gisela.
My current Windgrace list plays out a lot like Lands in Legacy. Many of my games against control-type decks are reduced to Strip Mine-type recursion, against faster decks that try to rush with Commander damage or little idiots, Glacial Chasm and Constant Mists are the go-to path of victory. Playing multiple lands on concert with Ramunap Excavator / Crucible of Worlds and just playing the Chasm out every turn when you have a landfall win condition like Ob Nixilis feels truly delightful (to me, anyway).
Just wondering if anyone has considered either Gamble or Raging Ravine in their Windgrace lists? I'm considering each one for the next iteration of my league, mostly because of the UMA price drop. However, I don't necessarily need their effects, so I'm not sure if they're worth having.
I don't know that I would bother with Raging Ravine. Depending on your creatures, you are more likely to be able to do more with those. Even though the land might be easier to get back, it still enters tapped and requires mana every turn to make work. And, it can be chumped pretty easily.
As for Gamble, I am not sure the best thing to tutor for and you are already running black and black has much better tutors. So, if there is anything specific you want to tutor for, just use a black tutor. If there is something specific you want in your graveyard, just use Entomb
I don't know that I would bother with Raging Ravine. Depending on your creatures, you are more likely to be able to do more with those. Even though the land might be easier to get back, it still enters tapped and requires mana every turn to make work. And, it can be chumped pretty easily.
As for Gamble, I am not sure the best thing to tutor for and you are already running black and black has much better tutors. So, if there is anything specific you want to tutor for, just use a black tutor. If there is something specific you want in your graveyard, just use Entomb
You make a good point about Raging Ravine. I was mostly just looking at it as a dual land that got cheaper.
Gamble seemed like a fit because it was cheap and the "downside" didn't matter as much because of how Lord Windgrace uses the graveyard. I do already have a couple of black tutors, but I know most Legacy Lands decks utilize Gamble, so I figured it would fit here as well.
While true that the downside is mitigated, comparing it to Lands is not apt. First, Lands wants to get very specific cards (Life From the Loam, Tabernacle, etc.) and discarding them is less of an issue because their entire deck is built around it (mostly the Life From the Loams). In Lord Windgrace (and EDH in general) Gamble becomes less useful. You are talking about 3 or 4 cards (maybe) out of 100 that can work with this where lands has a higher percentage of cards to deal with the downside.
Granted, one of the cards to help is your commander but, unless you are tutoring for lands most of the time, Lord Windgrace isn't much help. And that assumes you discard a land. If you tutor for your Wrath and then discard it, it is going to feel kind of bad. Obviously other cards (Phyrexian Reclamation, Eternal Witness) can help get back whatever else you might discard or if you search for something with Dredge the card can get itself back.
That is my take anyway. Obviously, the usefulness of the card is dependent on your list so maybe it can still be a good card to have. If you have truly run out of the good black tutors such as Vampiric, Demonic, Grim (maybe; this could be a stretch), or Entomb (since you plan on mitigating the graveyard part, just put the card there right away) then Gamble is by no means a bad card. I don't think you necessarily make your deck worse by playing it.
If you're gonna run a creature land you'll get the most mileage out of hissing quagmire. Many a standoff has been caused with recurring quagmire plus maze of ith type stuff.
Mostly agree with gamble unless you are wanting a second one Mana way to get life from the loam. that's the main gamble target.
The main argument over entomb is it's more flexible and not card disadvantage but in general I would play entomb if playing Genesis as a second target and gamble if not. But best to play all four (dt vamp gamble entomb) if playing loam.
I played this deck again the other day for the first time in a while. I played 2 games: one was 1v1 and the other was a 3 player game.
The first game was against Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. It is a "budget" deck (actually one being used for a league we have) so it isn't as tuned as it could be since we make changes slowly for that. I just want to add that in as this may not be as indicative of "real" game since that deck is somewhat hampered in its card choices.
Anyway, the game didn't take long. I just ramped early on while Jarad started the beats early. They were able to keep my board clear to start with and then kept exiling things with Scavenging Ooze. Once I got a couple blockers to stick, I dropped in Lord Windgrace to start rummaging/drawing. They had gotten me down to 19 at one point. The turn after, I drew with Lord Windgrace and drew into an Ulvenwald Hydra. This got me a Diamond Valley. Unfortunately, they blew up my Hydra before I could untap with the Diamond Valley to gain life.
A few turns later I ended up ultimating Lord Windrace to blow up the 4 permanents Jarad had and getting my 6 Cat tokens. Since they were playing Forests, it didn't take much to get in for the win since I was attacking for at least 12 each turn.
The second game was me, Jarad, and Ulasht the Hate Seed. This game saw me start off a little slower. I didn't really ramp much in the early game and I ended up just dropping a World Shaper hoping to mill some lands with the trigger and getting them back later. That didn't happen as the Ulasht player decided to drop down a Nessian Wilds Ravager. I chose to let it fight as I thought they would fight Jarad's Coprpsejack Menace but they went after the World Shaper.
The next turn, I dropped in a Mina and Denn which let me play some extra lands. I did this for a few turns which unfortunately also ramped Ulasht due to their Burgeoning. This gave them more mana to continue pumping into their Savageborn Hydra so they were able to keep it fairly large. Luckily I had a chump blocker for a while to ensure I didn't get hit.
Ulasht cast a Hangarback Walker on 4 a little later so they were working on building up their board state. They ended up having it destroyed fairly early so they never got any more counters on it. They did get 4 tokens though.
A couple turns later, Ulasht cast Treacherous Terrain which dealt a lot of damage to us but luckily was not enough to kill us. Shortly after that, I finally cast Lord Windgrace for the first time and got some new cards. They still worked on getting my life total down pretty low. Ulasht got an Ulvenwald Hydra and used Ulasht to kill my only blocker (after Jarad Doom Bladed my other one). Luckily I had a Constant Mists in hand to keep myself alive. Jarad still had a decent board state but they were low on life too.
I was able to land a Ulamaog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I got rid of a couple threats and then just kept attacking Jarad. They blocked each time, but they still exiled 20 cards.
Ulasht ended up casting Collective Voyage for 11. I was pretty sure I didn't have that many basics, but I added 2 to the count anyway. We all searched for 13 lands. Jarad and I got 8 and Ulasht got the full 13. Ulasht recognized that Jarad could kill them with Jarad's ability so they started swinging at them.
Jarad still had the upper hand since they had a creature to sac to Jarad to kill us. They didn't actually have Jarad on board though which gave us a sliver of hope. I was trying to figure out a way to slow them down so I cast Entomb as it was the only tutor I had. I searched and couldn't really find anything that stood out. Until I noticed Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar. I binned that, brought it back to my hand, and cast it.
On Jarad's turn, they cast Jarad. I let that go. They cast Scavenging Ooze and I let that go too. They also dropped in a Drana, Liberator of Malakir and passed the turn. Ulasht still had a huge Savageborn Hydra which created kind of a standoff where no one wanted to attack or do anything since they would just die to the player remaining. Ulasht cast a Star of Exctinction targeting my Diamond Valley which ended up working out pretty well. This killed almost everything except my Multani and Ulamog. Savageborn still lived too. Since this created a situation where Jarad needed to sac his guy now I was able to respond to that with Sacrificing Multani to gain a bunch of life. Jarad did sac his creature for everyone to lose 24 which killed Ulasht. I then swung into Jarad to exile the rest of their library and won the game.
At the end, there is the potential where Ulasht could have cast Ulasht enough to get enough counters to damage me to kill me. We tried to figure out the math (they had Zendikar Resurgent to give them a bunch of mana) so it would have been close if they decided to go with that line.
All in all, the deck played well though I got lucky in a couple spots to get the right card when I needed it (Multani) and then to be able to sac Multani so I didn't die. I might have had a chance to sac it right away so I am not sure why I didn't. I am not sure if I was just expecting to respond to Jarad later, but the safer play may have been to sac it right away to make sure I couldn't die to Ulasht and Jarad working together.
I'm not sure which card you mean, but it's clearly not Tempt with Discovery. I thought it would be Collective Voyage, but it doesn't work that way.
Respect for the Diamond Valley play - I didn't see it ending up that way. If DV is out of my budget, what lifegain effect would you recommend?
I'm not sure which card you mean, but it's clearly not Tempt with Discovery. I thought it would be Collective Voyage, but it doesn't work that way.
Respect for the Diamond Valley play - I didn't see it ending up that way. If DV is out of my budget, what lifegain effect would you recommend?
Ah, it was Collective Voyage. Thanks for the catch; I will update my previous post to correct that. I am not sure what you mean about not working that way though?
And yes, Miren is the Budget alternative to Diamond Valley (it even taps for mana). Momentous Fall is also awesome since players don't see it coming though it is only a one time use.
Collective Voyage says that each player searches for the same number of lands, and that number is the total sum of mana paid by all players.
The way you resolved the card, each player only got what they paid for.
Collective Voyage says that each player searches for the same number of lands, and that number is the total sum of mana paid by all players.
The way you resolved the card, each player only got what they paid for.
I think you need to re-read what I wrote. Ulasht paid 11 mana and I paid 2. I didn't mention it, but the Jarad didn't pay any. So, we all searched for 13 basics each. Jarad and I only got 8 each because we only had 8 left in our libraries. I can see how the way I worded it seems like we only got 8 combined (more than either of us paid anyway), but I did say Ulasht got all 13. We resolved it correctly; Jarad and I just didn't have 13 to get so we got everything we could which was 8 each.
Stuff like Worm Harvest or whatever feels like a better wincon than trying to win with keeping dudes on the battlefield at all. Or even just do what I do with Gitrog - set up a big torment or a stream of eldrazi cast triggers (volrath's stronghold+sac outlet+Eldrazi).
I can see why the synergy of Gitrog for example is a real hard thing to give up, but casting 5 mana creatures that die to removal is not really what Windgrace asks for I don't think. Gitrog is awesome in the Gitrog deck where you can just keep recasting him (hell I cast him 4 times in a row the other night) but not so much when he goes to the yard when he dies. Same with Omnath and Bobo and so on.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The sweepers comment is where I am starting to lean towards. I don't like Worm Harvest for a couple reasons, but it might be decent. I would prefer to simply get big creatures that work on their own and beat down with them after clearing the board of everything else. Ulvenwald Hydra and Realm Seekers work for that along with a couple other options. I have the reanimation needed to make that a viable option as that is often how I end up winning.
The thing with Hydra, Gitrog, Realm seekers is that they're mostly less efficient than other ways of drawing cards and functionally what they do is draw cards (or find cards). For the most part Hydra and Realm Seekers are weaker than Tempt with Discovery or Hour of Promise (and similarly much worse than sylvan scrying or even expedition map). Gitrog similarly is mostly weaker than say, Scroll Rack or Top, Sylvan Library, or Wheel of Fortune, or really any draw spell. He just doesn't do enough for 5 mana as a part of the 75 I don't think. Even Mirri's Guile is probably better.
I like Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya a lot as well in windgrace because of how easily and regularly you can shift the top of your deck. And they tend to draw a hair less hate and are cheaper. But neither is an autoinclude (though much better with top/scroll rack effects).
Fundamentally I think a good sized Torment of Hailfire is probably the most efficient wincon for this kinda deck, but I like single really powerful creatures as well. Eldrazi are especially good because you can find Eye of Ugin easily, which is what I do in Gitrog.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I can see the appeal of say, Ulvenwald Hydra because it blocks fliers. Same with World Breaker (and it's recurrable removal).
I think I'd advocate mostly for eye of ugin and torment as the primary wincons, rather than just torment or whatever. Just spamming whichever giant Eldrazi you want is a lot more consistent than trying to set up 'bash with a bunch of plant tokens' in my opinion.
YMMV of course, but I don't view this as a midrange deck. So random attack steps trying to push through a lethal board state seems to conflict with what you want to do.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
- Unless the Izzet player loads up on mana rocks, you will naturally have the biggest pile of mana at your disposal every turn.
- You either quickly generate a large board full of landfall-tokens thanks to multiple fetches and ramp spells, or you cast massive X-based board wipes that opponents have a harder time dealing with because they have less lands than you do.
- Either way, you drop one haymaker after another, and Windgrace makes sure your hand stays full enough to keep dropping said haymakers until the sheer size of them causes the opponents to collapse under their weight.
- In the process, you probably make enemies out of the Bant and Izzet players because your board wipes naturally wipe out most/all of their artifacts/enchantments, and the game is usually won or lost based on their ability to come back from those massive losses.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
The thing to remember with Windgrace is you really don't need more of the "put lands from graveyard onto the battlefield" effect. Your command zone does that. So if you're not going to try to win with Titania tokens she's pretty medium (much worse than just playing Excavator or Crucible usually).
If you *are* going to try to win with Titania tokens it becomes a delicate balance of "can I jam a bunch of tokens when the board is empty before someone else rebuilds a bigger state and I have to wipe again?"
I do see your points for sure, not trying to discount the merit, just explain my reasoning.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
ADDS
CUTS
Basically, I beefed up my lands and cut a few basics to make them fit. I was going to add Titania, but I have decided against her for now. She is decent, but not what I want for the deck for now. I think she is better in the MLD package which I have cut.
Otherwise, I just added Damnation for another wrath and Entomb to help get things in my graveyard as needed. Soul of New Phyrexia and Eldrazi are good as they work from the graveyard (more or less) and Life from the Loam early can help make sure I hit land drops even with discarding to Windgrace. The Eldrazi have been added to a) protect my graveyard as needed and b) give me an end game. Assassin's Trophy is a straight Swap for Terminate as I believe it to be much better.
I am going to find a place for Bazaar of Baghdad but I just haven't done it yet. I will likely not cut a land for it, and will probably cut some creature that isn't doing what I want. I have to look through the list again for that.
Something I always found super good in Gitrog also was Emrakul, the Promised end. It's a bit of a dick move but it helps handle combo decks you can't beat very reliably otherwise (you can just execute their combo and win if you see it coming happens regularly).
You might like keeping say, a single wildfire effect to help buy some time but I think that's a matter of taste. Maybe Ember Swallower with the reanimation theme. Little more surgical than straight up sweeping.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I find that constantly sweeping the board of creatures and lands really helps with keeping your walkers alive. Heck, even just having windgrace himself post Obliterate or Jokulhaups is usually enough to win you the game. I have my deck list posted below if your interested in my strategy.
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Spike Weaver
1 Wood Elves
Instants: 10
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
1 Constant Mists
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Krosan Grip
1 Moment's Peace
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Vampiric Tutor
Sorceries: 22
1 Blashphemous Act
1 Cultivate
1 Damnation
1 Decimate
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Exsanguinate
1 Farseek
1 Jokulhaups
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Nature's Lore
1 Obliterate
1 Rampant Growth
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Splendid Reclamation
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wildfire
1 Worst Fears
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Nevinyrall's Disk
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
Enchantments: 6
1 Doubling Season
1 Oath of Nissa
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Stranglehold
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers: 10
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Liliana Vess
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin Markov
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
1 Vraska the Unseen
Lands: 37
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cinder Glade
1 Command Tower
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forge of Heroes
1 Graven Cairns
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Savage Lands
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetary
6 Forest
4 Mountain
6 Swamp
Basic strategy is to ramp, ramp, and then ramp some more. Once you have 1 or 2 walkers, just sweep the board nonstop. You have a bunch of removal, and your walkers USUALLY stick as long as you didn't draw attention to yourself really early.
So, I think I am going to try out The Ceaseless Hunger instead of Infinite Gyre. I will have to go about picking one up.
The mix of emrakul, newlamog and oldkoz is my jam, gives you ways to end the game in a variety of ways coupled with sac outlets/volrath's stronghold. Pretty pure inevitability there.
Also: LikeaCircus builds it largely how I would, though I would use an eldrazi package and more lands vs. the walker package, but really that's a matter of taste I think.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The reason I play very very few utility lands, is simply because none of them live long enough to get use out of it. 95% of the time, I just ramp till I have some mana, play some walkers, then blow up EVERYTHING but the walkers. I don't run Crucible or Ramunap for the same reason, they just dont stick around anyways. I found that Instant or Sorcery ramp was far better, because if all my opponents saw me doing was ramping, I'd tend to not get focused as much. It's the main reason you don't see many artifacts in my list, as they will just get blown up after 1 or 2 uses.
There would be many thing I would change if I wasn't doing the MLD strategy, but I feel like this is the best way to use him. Although to be honest, it does draw alot of hate from players once they figure out what your up to. Very few people enjoy playing decks who blow up your lands.
The next game, Karametra changed to Gisela and it was a better game. Granted, Ephara was slow getting to their blue mana, but I was able to ramp a little and get Lord Windgrace down while ticking him up to 9. While doing so, I also had a Glacial Chasm on board. The Glacial Chasm ultimately won me the game.
I tried to get a Gitrog down, but Gisela had an Inferno Titan and Gisela. They kill the Gitrog Monster and killed Lord Windgrace a little later. They then dropped in an Elesh Norn which killed a lot of my things. One thing it didn't kill is World Shaper. This is important because they ended up trying destroy or get rid of my Glacial Chasm and I just cast Crop Rotation to get something else and make sure it went to my graveyard. They swung lethal at me and I sacrificed the World Shaper to get a bunch of lands, included Glacial Chasm back.
Over the next couple turns, I was able to get Chainer off of Protean Hulk which then got me Hulk and Ulvenwald Hydra from the grave. Luckily Chainer does not die to Elesh Norn. The Hydra came first to get my Urborg (so I had all the black mana I needed). I then sacrificed Hulk to get Ravenous Chupacabra to kill Elesh Norn and sacrificed the Hydra to Diamond Valley for life. I just kept looping these for a while until I killed Gisela's board (Ephara died to Gisela a few turns before this since they couldn't get through my Chasm).
In the end, I was able to swing with a big Hydra (I let the Chasm go to the graveyard obviously) and a couple other things like the Hulk to eventually win the game.
This game was basically all about the power of Glacial Chasm, especially against a damage-centric deck like Gisela. I think I got a little lucky that Gisela could kill Ephara since I think it is much harder for me to beat that deck than it is to beat Gisela.
My current Windgrace list plays out a lot like Lands in Legacy. Many of my games against control-type decks are reduced to Strip Mine-type recursion, against faster decks that try to rush with Commander damage or little idiots, Glacial Chasm and Constant Mists are the go-to path of victory. Playing multiple lands on concert with Ramunap Excavator / Crucible of Worlds and just playing the Chasm out every turn when you have a landfall win condition like Ob Nixilis feels truly delightful (to me, anyway).
Just wondering if anyone has considered either Gamble or Raging Ravine in their Windgrace lists? I'm considering each one for the next iteration of my league, mostly because of the UMA price drop. However, I don't necessarily need their effects, so I'm not sure if they're worth having.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
As for Gamble, I am not sure the best thing to tutor for and you are already running black and black has much better tutors. So, if there is anything specific you want to tutor for, just use a black tutor. If there is something specific you want in your graveyard, just use Entomb
You make a good point about Raging Ravine. I was mostly just looking at it as a dual land that got cheaper.
Gamble seemed like a fit because it was cheap and the "downside" didn't matter as much because of how Lord Windgrace uses the graveyard. I do already have a couple of black tutors, but I know most Legacy Lands decks utilize Gamble, so I figured it would fit here as well.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Granted, one of the cards to help is your commander but, unless you are tutoring for lands most of the time, Lord Windgrace isn't much help. And that assumes you discard a land. If you tutor for your Wrath and then discard it, it is going to feel kind of bad. Obviously other cards (Phyrexian Reclamation, Eternal Witness) can help get back whatever else you might discard or if you search for something with Dredge the card can get itself back.
That is my take anyway. Obviously, the usefulness of the card is dependent on your list so maybe it can still be a good card to have. If you have truly run out of the good black tutors such as Vampiric, Demonic, Grim (maybe; this could be a stretch), or Entomb (since you plan on mitigating the graveyard part, just put the card there right away) then Gamble is by no means a bad card. I don't think you necessarily make your deck worse by playing it.
Mostly agree with gamble unless you are wanting a second one Mana way to get life from the loam. that's the main gamble target.
The main argument over entomb is it's more flexible and not card disadvantage but in general I would play entomb if playing Genesis as a second target and gamble if not. But best to play all four (dt vamp gamble entomb) if playing loam.
Hope that helps.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The first game was against Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. It is a "budget" deck (actually one being used for a league we have) so it isn't as tuned as it could be since we make changes slowly for that. I just want to add that in as this may not be as indicative of "real" game since that deck is somewhat hampered in its card choices.
Anyway, the game didn't take long. I just ramped early on while Jarad started the beats early. They were able to keep my board clear to start with and then kept exiling things with Scavenging Ooze. Once I got a couple blockers to stick, I dropped in Lord Windgrace to start rummaging/drawing. They had gotten me down to 19 at one point. The turn after, I drew with Lord Windgrace and drew into an Ulvenwald Hydra. This got me a Diamond Valley. Unfortunately, they blew up my Hydra before I could untap with the Diamond Valley to gain life.
A few turns later I ended up ultimating Lord Windrace to blow up the 4 permanents Jarad had and getting my 6 Cat tokens. Since they were playing Forests, it didn't take much to get in for the win since I was attacking for at least 12 each turn.
The second game was me, Jarad, and Ulasht the Hate Seed. This game saw me start off a little slower. I didn't really ramp much in the early game and I ended up just dropping a World Shaper hoping to mill some lands with the trigger and getting them back later. That didn't happen as the Ulasht player decided to drop down a Nessian Wilds Ravager. I chose to let it fight as I thought they would fight Jarad's Coprpsejack Menace but they went after the World Shaper.
The next turn, I dropped in a Mina and Denn which let me play some extra lands. I did this for a few turns which unfortunately also ramped Ulasht due to their Burgeoning. This gave them more mana to continue pumping into their Savageborn Hydra so they were able to keep it fairly large. Luckily I had a chump blocker for a while to ensure I didn't get hit.
Ulasht cast a Hangarback Walker on 4 a little later so they were working on building up their board state. They ended up having it destroyed fairly early so they never got any more counters on it. They did get 4 tokens though.
A couple turns later, Ulasht cast Treacherous Terrain which dealt a lot of damage to us but luckily was not enough to kill us. Shortly after that, I finally cast Lord Windgrace for the first time and got some new cards. They still worked on getting my life total down pretty low. Ulasht got an Ulvenwald Hydra and used Ulasht to kill my only blocker (after Jarad Doom Bladed my other one). Luckily I had a Constant Mists in hand to keep myself alive. Jarad still had a decent board state but they were low on life too.
I was able to land a Ulamaog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I got rid of a couple threats and then just kept attacking Jarad. They blocked each time, but they still exiled 20 cards.
Ulasht ended up casting Collective Voyage for 11. I was pretty sure I didn't have that many basics, but I added 2 to the count anyway. We all searched for 13 lands. Jarad and I got 8 and Ulasht got the full 13. Ulasht recognized that Jarad could kill them with Jarad's ability so they started swinging at them.
Jarad still had the upper hand since they had a creature to sac to Jarad to kill us. They didn't actually have Jarad on board though which gave us a sliver of hope. I was trying to figure out a way to slow them down so I cast Entomb as it was the only tutor I had. I searched and couldn't really find anything that stood out. Until I noticed Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar. I binned that, brought it back to my hand, and cast it.
On Jarad's turn, they cast Jarad. I let that go. They cast Scavenging Ooze and I let that go too. They also dropped in a Drana, Liberator of Malakir and passed the turn. Ulasht still had a huge Savageborn Hydra which created kind of a standoff where no one wanted to attack or do anything since they would just die to the player remaining. Ulasht cast a Star of Exctinction targeting my Diamond Valley which ended up working out pretty well. This killed almost everything except my Multani and Ulamog. Savageborn still lived too. Since this created a situation where Jarad needed to sac his guy now I was able to respond to that with Sacrificing Multani to gain a bunch of life. Jarad did sac his creature for everyone to lose 24 which killed Ulasht. I then swung into Jarad to exile the rest of their library and won the game.
At the end, there is the potential where Ulasht could have cast Ulasht enough to get enough counters to damage me to kill me. We tried to figure out the math (they had Zendikar Resurgent to give them a bunch of mana) so it would have been close if they decided to go with that line.
All in all, the deck played well though I got lucky in a couple spots to get the right card when I needed it (Multani) and then to be able to sac Multani so I didn't die. I might have had a chance to sac it right away so I am not sure why I didn't. I am not sure if I was just expecting to respond to Jarad later, but the safer play may have been to sac it right away to make sure I couldn't die to Ulasht and Jarad working together.
Respect for the Diamond Valley play - I didn't see it ending up that way. If DV is out of my budget, what lifegain effect would you recommend?
Entombing for a glacial chasm and bringing it back with windgrace is another potential line.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
And yes, Miren is the Budget alternative to Diamond Valley (it even taps for mana). Momentous Fall is also awesome since players don't see it coming though it is only a one time use.
The way you resolved the card, each player only got what they paid for.