So, after seeing some fairly thorough assessment through the newly implemented random deck discussion thread, I've made some changes to the basic infrastructure of the deck. There's still a couple of flex spots, but here's whats changed for now:
In:
Exotic Orchard - enters untapped, and gives me colour options, 2 of which are pretty commonly played.
Arcane Sanctum - Standard colour fixer, should do just fine.
Path of Ancestry - I took this out of Edgar Markov, it's of more use to me here. ETB tapped, but the scry will do nicely.
Notion Rain - Sculpted draw, and fills my yard if needed. Should do fine, even if it doesn't quite play with Archfiend of Ifnir the way I'd like it to.
Frantic Search - Similar to above, but mana efficient and instant speed.
So, after seeing some fairly thorough assessment through the newly implemented random deck discussion thread, I've made some changes to the basic infrastructure of the deck. There's still a couple of flex spots, but here's whats changed for now:
In:
Exotic Orchard - enters untapped, and gives me colour options, 2 of which are pretty commonly played.
Arcane Sanctum - Standard colour fixer, should do just fine.
Path of Ancestry - I took this out of Edgar Markov, it's of more use to me here. ETB tapped, but the scry will do nicely.
Notion Rain - Sculpted draw, and fills my yard if needed. Should do fine, even if it doesn't quite play with Archfiend of Ifnir the way I'd like it to.
Frantic Search - Similar to above, but mana efficient and instant speed.
I'll wait and see what comes out of WAR before any further changes, but happy with these ones.
I'd leave Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in your deck. 16 of your lands are incapable of generating B without a Chromatic Lantern online. The Tomb instantly turns any of your islands into Underground Sea, your Plains into Scrubland, turns Port Town into Arcane Sanctum, and allows your utility lands to tap for B. That's a lot of additional value in an arguably more difficult card to eliminate from the battlefield than Chromatic Lantern. You were right to ditch Cabal Coffers, and Expedition Map too, but I feel getting rid of the Tomb is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. That card does a significant amount on it's own, fully optimized manabase or not.
Also, I'd drop Liliana, Heretical Healer for Zombie Master upon bringing the Tomb back. Varina, Lich Queen needs you to be attacking to provide value to her ability. You are going to want evasion and any type of landwalk allows you to attack unopposed. If a single player has the Tomb out, while you have Zombie Master in play, everyone is food for the horde. Even without the Tomb in play, at least one opponent is likely to have something that counts as a Swamp in play. You only need one valid target for Varina to trigger. Every once in a while, that regenerate ability that all Zombies gains from the Master is relevant too.
If you can get City of Brass and Mana Confluence, I think your opinion on Havengul Lich will change. It's a value engine with casting ETB effects from the graveyard and it only gets better when someone sitting at the table is playing green. Casting your opponent's Acidic Slime, Bane of Progress, Reclamation Sage, and any other of the plethora of ETB effects makes Havengul Lich a value engine and that's without taking into consideration it's duplication of activated abilities. Those interactions are extremely valuable in Esper, where most of your artifact and enchantment hate is going to be a one-time cast. I value those interactions so much that I'd even recommend Gravespawn Sovereign if you can find one. Use your untapped tokens, even if you are getting them each turn from Tombstone Stairwell, to steal valuable creatures with abilities from graveyards.
Also, if you can acquire them, Grave Titan obviously has the potential to generate a ridiculous amount of Zombies. I'll gladly pay 4BB for a 6/6 that also tosses two 2/2 Zombies in just for ETB. I've also been able to get great value out of the new Rot Hulk, which is usually the same as tossing 3 or 4 Zombies into play for 5BB. I love Zombie Apocalypse and Patriarch's Bidding, but I am often looking for 2 or 3 specific Zombies when I cast them. The additional Zombies are just a bonus. Rot Hulk does that, but with a recastable body.
Lastly, if you have them or can find them, Alhammarret's Archive and Reconnaissance. It's a weaker version of Kindred Discovery in terms of draw power, but if it hadn't been older than Varina, I'd almost be inclined to believe that it was designed with Commander 2018 in mind with a prototype that originally had Varina at the helm of the Esper deck. It doubles the only immediate value you generate from Varina's looting ability. Reconnaissance is an absolute staple for Varina. Varina needs the horde to be aggressive to generate value. You aren't always going to have evasion and, to an extent, you are going to want to hold onto those tokens. Reconnaissance lets you be as aggressive as you like without having to worry about that.
EDIT: One more suggestion, again if you have it. Unholy Grotto over Volrath's Stronghold. In my version of Varina, 26 of my 30 creatures are Zombies. The only 4 that aren't are as follows: The Scarab God, Ghoulcaller Gisa, Gisa and Geralf, and Grave Titan. All are great, but none of them really do anything that isn't already done, albeit often in a weaker or more expensive fashion, by another creature with Zombie type. Your ratio of Zombies to non-Zombies is about the same.
Volrath's Stronghold is going to require that you, in most cases, tap three total lands, or use rocks, to put a single creature back on top of your library. That's a pretty hefty mana investment without something like Rooftop Storm or treasure tokens from Smothering Tithe. Unholy Grotto is the same effect for the majority of scenarios within your deck, but at the cost of only tapping two lands. Unholy Grotto is also cheaper for cheating Varina's commander tax.
If you can fit both, great, but I have yet to toss Volrath's Stronghold back into my own deck just because I cannot find a utility land slot I am willing to part with.
I see what you’re saying with Urborg and I don’t disagree. The only problem I have there (and it has nothing to do with this deck) is that then I have a fair amount of value tied up in a coffers I can’t use, partially because I have enough decks and I have no intentions of building mono black anytime soon. I could use it as trade but I am loath to, as they’re not easy to come by. I’ll think about it.
I’d been thinking about dropping Lili too. She’s limited in a few ways that make her less than ideal, and the Master is probably the last lord I definitely want in here.
The rest of your recommendations, while generally valuable, do make up a considerable monetary investment, and I’d love to be able to manage that, but at present I’m not able to front that sort of cash. Titan is enormously overpriced at present, as is the Archive (my thoughts on it are mixed anyway, it seems like a win more card). Pretty sure Grotto is up over 10 NZD for an uncommon land too, and confluence and brass are much the same. I get what you’re heading for, and I do appreciate the suggestion, but it’s currently out of reach for me.
Edit - I hope this doesn’t sound rude, I certainly don’t mean it to. I’m just building as best I can within the limitations RL has imposed on me, and regardless of monetary value I can definitely see the principles of deck building you’re suggesting.
Have you guys tested Call to the Kindred yet? I am thinking about running plenty of zombie creatures and having the ability to put zombies on board from my deck is great. I may even consider Training Grounds as it not only lessens the cost for our commander's ability, it also makes the cost of several of my creatures' abilities cheaper.
Also, is playing Balthor the Defiled too cheeky, or does it have a place in a black creature heavy deck?
I can’t speak for the other two suggestions, but I’ve tried Call to the Kindred in a couple of tribal decks. With a little top deck finagling it can do some work, although it does suffer from the same delayed payoff problems that Endless Ranks of the Dead has. It could do some work in the right deck, but you’d need to really work around it with some heavy scry tech.
I haven’t tried Balthor, but I suspect that black being one of the more popular colours to run gives it a reasonable chance to backfire on you, at least in terms of board presence. That might not end up mattering so much if you’re resurrecting Noxious Ghoul though
Amalgam was in the initial build, yeah. From memory it was middling, if only because it needs other pieces to do anything more than just be a well costed vanilla beater. I’ve thought about adding it back in, but I’d want to go more all in on reanimation before I’d be comfortable with it holding its own. Aside from that, it’s at that place on the curve where I’m casting a lot of lords, so it’s got a tough job competing for a slot.
Understandable. I run a Lord of Tresserhorn deck that always like sacrifice fodder, and the Amalgam does great in that respect. I saw you use Gravecrawler, who serves a similar purpose in my deck to Amalgam, and they work wonderfully together.
Understandable. I run a Lord of Tresserhorn deck that always like sacrifice fodder, and the Amalgam does great in that respect. I saw you use Gravecrawler, who serves a similar purpose in my deck to Amalgam, and they work wonderfully together.
Yeah, if there were more in the way of reanimation here it'd be a decent add. While I've found what I do run to be good at what it does, it doesn't come up often enough to justify a dedicated reanimation card that does nothing by itself. I've thought about adding some selective reanimators like Apprentice Necromancer, and I'd love a Patriarch's Bidding (my LGS has a foil copy that looks beautiful, but it's the only copy they have and it's $60NZD). In the case of Bidding, it's just too much to pay, and I've not been sure that Apprentice would do enough to justify a slot. I guess it plays well with Relentless Dead and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, so maybe it'd be worth testing.
Ha, true! Liliana, Defiant Necromancer is definitely a flex spot though. She's likely leaving the list shortly, I've got some bits and pieces to pick up this Friday when I pick a WAR box for my wife and I, and there's at least 2-3 bits and pieces I've picked out for Varina, as well as some pieces I'm hoping to pull from the new set.
(I know buying singles is easier/cheaper, but my wife really likes experiencing the new sets this way, and it's a good way to keep her involved and happy)
After about a week of playing, I can't tell if I want to play this as a midrange deck or as a STAX control deck... I would like to play more zombies but they don't seem to do much on their own. STAX control, at least lets us control the early game.
Maybe this sounds blasphemous, but zombie tribal seems a bit of a trap?
Well, I noticed that whenever I play in a creature heavy Zombie Tribal deck, I can typically hold my own against other mid-power or lower commanders. However, I find that most of the zombies do not do enough on their own when they ETB so the deck can feel underpowered if we fall behind on resources, get board-wiped, or if Varina gets removed.
That's why I considered the STAX control, playing only 10 to 15 creatures max. That leaves room for more counters, smothering tithe, mystic remora, ghostly prison, tutors, etc. Varina, makes her own zombies so if we can slow down the opponents while steadily accruing resources. We can bring down Varina later and then create zombies with her abilities.
I'm not sure, still testing and trying to make it work. Some days feel great, others I think I should just build a Yuriko deck instead...
I play a pretty solid zombie tribal deck. Like you, it has days where it feels powerful, and days where it feels very underpowered. However, you just need to determine how powerful of a deck you want to make, and the power level of your meta. If you’re always playing against very high-powered combo decks and other highly competitive decks, you probably want to avoid any type of tribal deck, since they all have the same inherent flaws: weak to mass removal, depends on the combat step, etc.
Ultimately, this community can help you with the deck, theme, or card choices you talk about, but we don’t know your meta and the people you play against. Give us some context about the type of deck you want to build, and we can give you more quality feedback.
Well, I am quite new to MTG so I don't have a playgroup yet, just playing online at the moment. However, I know that I would prefer to optimize my deck to be as competitive as possible so I can at least try to hang with the higher powered decks. Even if my meta is less competitive, I can always tune my deck down to match it. The way I see it, it's easier to power down your deck to match your local playgroup than it is to power up your deck.
I have experienced the flaws you mentioned about tribal: weak to mass removal and depends on the combat step. Especially Varina decks that play with Archfiend of Ifnir. That combo is amazing when it goes off but I imagine that would make my playgroup target me every game. For example, earlier today I was in a 4 player edh game online against Meren, Niv (Parun) and a third commander I can't remember. I Archfiend of Ifnir and two zombies on board while the Niv commander was on my opponent's board. The Meren player had his commander, a few monsters and over a half dozen tokens that got powered up whenever he played a land. Now, this looks hopeless at first since those are more powerful commanders but I held a Windfall in my hand until I knew I could discard 6, then proceeded to wipe the board. It was glorious.
However, I feel moving away from tribal will make it keep up with the higher tiered decks. I think 'STAX reanimator' is the way to go. My draft is something like this:
Here’s my thoughts on the issue:
Any strategy you play is going to have a flaw to exploit. Ultimately if you want to roll with competitive crowds you’re going to have to look at some sort of combo variant, with control elements to keep the wheels coming off. If that sounds like something you want to do, I’d suggest Aetherflux Reservoir, some storm cards as fit, maybe Rooftop Storm if you wanna get janky, some altars (ashnod’s and phyrexian) and a really low creature curve with some easy recurrence. There’d be some wins in there somewhere - apologies for the vagueness, it’s just not an area I’m interested in personally.
Stax has it’s weaknesses too, as does reanimation. They’d both do just fine under Varina, but it is going to be meta dependent and it’s going to come down to building in a balance of self advantage and board detriment. Esper has some crushing board locks available to it, so it’s not a bad idea.
Ultimately, with my build I’ve tried to straddle some of these areas. Tribal gets pretty casual, but there’s enough value there to make it work these days - provides you run creatures of value, and not just because they’re birds of a feather. Reanimation can be resilient, but again you need to make it efficient and make sure you’re bringing back value, at a cost you’re happy with. Stax can work, so long as you’re able to do more in the hostile environment you create than anyone else.
So yes, I agree - pure tribal zombies is a trap. If you’re building on any theme, you’ve sacrificed success for a different metric of value, whether you realize it or not. While this deck does have some tribal leanings, the commander supports that, and I’ve tried to make a point of not running creatures that don’t deserve a place.
Like you, I am not interested in a meta that involves infinites, hax combos, and turn 3 wins, so I will avoid that playgroup. However, it would be interesting to build a Varina deck that doesn't instantly fold to decks that may have a fair combo or two.
Even with the weaknesses of STAX/Reanimator, I think I will try to build my Varina around those themes. The link in my post above should work now and show a rough draft of the deck I would like to build.
My main objective is to build resources while enforcing a STAX early game and then slowly build my zombie token army while holding up counters in the midgame. Then in the late-game I want to be maintaining some control while reanimating.
So, with all of this there's some big changes. I think it's going to take some playtesting to see how it all goes. I'm mostly pretty happy with these changes, and much happier with the manabase in general. Some of the changes here are a little more aggressive and suggest a more attacking plan (Zombie Master[/c]), and most of the drops are things I've had in hand and not wanted to cast before. The looting spells I'm happy to interchange as they work. Whispering Madness is a cute trick I've tried in Dralnu before that works really well with Archfiend of Ifnir, but if it doesn't play out here I'll happily swap in something smaller scale like Frantic Search or Notion Rain. I still have a copy of Soul Diviner and Command the Dreadhorde to pick up, so we'll see what happens in terms of cuts there. The only thing I’ve added here I’m not overly sure about is Ashnod’s Altar - I don’t want to combo out with it, and I’m pretty sure it’ll be either this or Nim Deathmantle, but not both. Too close to infinite. I can’t see any other obvious degeneracy, but if it gets gross the Altar is likely to go. I want the instant speed sac and the mana boost is nice too, I just don’t want to be able to combo out.
Like you, I am not interested in a meta that involves infinites, hax combos, and turn 3 wins, so I will avoid that playgroup. However, it would be interesting to build a Varina deck that doesn't instantly fold to decks that may have a fair combo or two.
Even with the weaknesses of STAX/Reanimator, I think I will try to build my Varina around those themes. The link in my post above should work now and show a rough draft of the deck I would like to build.
My main objective is to build resources while enforcing a STAX early game and then slowly build my zombie token army while holding up counters in the midgame. Then in the late-game I want to be maintaining some control while reanimating.
I haven't forgotten about this, either. I do have thoughts, so watch this space. I just need to catch up on life, and should be able to give you some meaningful feedback overnight.
Like you, I am not interested in a meta that involves infinites, hax combos, and turn 3 wins, so I will avoid that playgroup. However, it would be interesting to build a Varina deck that doesn't instantly fold to decks that may have a fair combo or two.
Even with the weaknesses of STAX/Reanimator, I think I will try to build my Varina around those themes. The link in my post above should work now and show a rough draft of the deck I would like to build.
My main objective is to build resources while enforcing a STAX early game and then slowly build my zombie token army while holding up counters in the midgame. Then in the late-game I want to be maintaining some control while reanimating.
So, I finally managed to squeeze in some time to have a look at this. I don't think you can call it a pure stax build, but I get what you're aiming at. Here's my thoughts, first on specific cards and then in general.
Back to Basics - this seems like it hurts you pretty badly too, are you sure it's a good inclusion? Seems like the sort of thing you run with a whole lot of rocks in the deck, but you're running a lot of nonbasics, so it seems like you'll suffer just as badly as anyone else you face down.
Curse of Disturbance - I get how this is a political tool, and that's cool. But it's also a pretty slow way to build your army. I'd replace with Tombstone Stairwell.
Meekstone - Your tokens will fly under the radar, sure. Most of the actual creatures you run won't though, and you don't have any way of mitigating this short of wasting removal on your own tech - especially concerning for something like Sun Titan, which you need to swing with to get full value from. Personally, I'd go for a tempo move like Authority of the Consuls, Blind Obedience or Thalia, Heretic Cathar in this spot.
Lazotep Plating - What sort of scenarios is this looking to prevent? Given your extensive reanimation package here, I wouldn't worry about protecting your critters so much. And player targeted spells are varied in efficacy, I'd prefer to just run a counter here. The extra amass trigger isn't worth it.
Eternal Taskmaster - this seems a little slow. ETB tapped and only returning to your hand pales in comparison to lots of the other options out there. This should be Prized Amalgam, or maybe Lazotep Reaver.
So in general, what's your way to win? You're looking to stall out long enough to be able to reanimate with generous aplomb, and that's something I can fully get behind. But it's not going to get you over the line in and of itself. This is part of why I've built my aristocrats into my build - every time a zombie dies or comes back into play I get a little closer to the finish line, whether I swing or not. You've got yourself a lot of redundancy in being able to maintain a board state, but it doesn't necessarily win you the game. In this sort of deck, you've got a couple of options. You can last long enough to assemble some sort of combo, you can get critical mass and swing until no one is left, you can pack in some game enders like Exsanguinate or Rise of the Dark Realms, or you can make your board state painful to remove (this latter has been my preference to date). I'm just not seeing anything that really gets you over the line, is all.
There's also a heavy reliance on the amass mechanic. While I think there's some merit there, it's a weird mechanic, in that it's not going to go wide as much as you will want it to, it'll go tall. And that directly conflicts with your Meekstone. If you're looking to get lots of critters running around, I generally think there's better ways to go. I've already mentioned Tombstone Stairwell (seriously, it's sooo good), there's plenty of other options too - Noosegraf Mob has been excellent for me, Army of the Damned could do work, Rise from the Tides is fun in a more spellslinger build (which this has an element of, it could work), Lich Lord of Unx gets you critters and gives you a win condition, there's plenty of options available. I just think if you're going wide with tokens this mechanic is something you should go light on. If you're using the armies for sacrifice, you'd be fine to go heavy on this mechanic. I do like the evasion the eternals give you, but it's a little narrow.
A lot of your bigger impact spells are instant and sorcery, with obviously some strong creature inclusions, but still - lots of spells. Have you considered either including Dralnu, Lich Lord, or retooling this for use under the same? I run a control/reanimator build under Dralnu myself, and honestly it's a brutal deck - it's non combo mostly and definitely doesn't go infinite, but some games you'd have trouble believing it. Just shy of competitive combo, but it can fully spank the crap out of a table without blinking when it's running well. The other thing that might help is God-Eternal Kefnet. I haven't had a chance to playtest myself, but it seems a strong inclusion considering the weight of instants and sorceries you're into here (I've just added this for testing in my Dralnu build, too).
Feel free to respond accordingly; apologies if all of this sounds overly critical, I think I see what you're trying to achieve it just needs a bit more work.
Post changes, the mana seems a lot stronger now. I had no problems colour fixing last game, draw was reasonable and ended up winning yet again from Tombstone Stairwell, this time paired with Vengeful Dead - literally the worst possible outcome for my opponents. I was making 6 tokens a turn, then there was 2, 14, and 6 again, for a grand total of 28 life lost each turn for each player. I passed turn and the game ended more or less on the spot. Such a good card, it was just a savage way to end the game.
What I've been able to test of changes thus far is fairly limited, but Ashnod's Altar was a strong addition, I'm really happy with it here. Dreadhorde Invasion was decent too - it's not Bitterblossom, and never will be. I'd definitely prefer it went wide than tall, but that's alright. It gives early presence, and with lords in play it stands at least a reasonable chance of hitting the lifelink threshold. If nothing else, having a chump blocker each turn is great, and repeatable early drops for sacrifice value is good too, so it pairs really quite well with Altar, Carrion Feeder or Ghoulcaller Gisa.
All in all fairly happy - the deck does get mana hungry. Havengul Lich is pricey, but the Altar helps somewhat, it's just a slow control. The life loss is pretty ample at present, but then I haven't seen Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in action yet, and haven't yet hit Invasion's lifelink threshold - I don't see it as a major issue, you can still win from 1 life, and the game I just played had two RBGW decks, one running Erebos, God of the Dead and the other running Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. So far so good.
No worries, I appreciate your feedback and I find it very constructive; so thanks for the help. I essentially abandoned that build I posted and made a more midrange build. I found that STAX does work with Varina but it makes us a target when we restrict the board. | would, however, be interested in testing Varina as a spellslinger deck with Dralnu and Kefnet as her lieutenants.
As far as your midrange build, have you considered Aether Vial and Mutavault? I want to test Aether Vial as it allows us to put a free monster on the board on turn 3. Which is especially nice since we want as many zombies on board when we summon Varina. Mutavault is nice because it's a land that can be a "zombie", especially after a board wipe. Plus I noticed you play Thespian's Stage, so you can have another target for it. I'm curious, why play Thespian?
I haven’t tried Vial. Mostly because I don’t have a copy and it’s atrociously expensive, being as it’s a modern staple. Much the same with Mutavault, although I definitely get what you’re driving at with that one. I think I’d be happier running it if I had more always to ensure it stayed on the field, but if you have a copy I could definitely see running it here. It’s a nod to tribal without having to run an otherwise average tribal zombie.
Thespian is here for options. You never can have too many. Even if it’s copying Path of Ancestry or Command Tower it’s fixing colours and getting value. Otherwise it can be a copy of whatever other cool stuff is on the field, be it Maze of Ith or Dark Depths or a Strip Mine variant. Corner case tech isn’t always valuable, but when it is it really is.
I've played a couple of games recently where I'd thought 'damn, this is why you run Despark'. I want to see how it goes, and I think it's possibly a good add. I've talked already about all the niches I think Soul Diviner can hit, but I also like that it's lower on the curve than Corpse Connoisseur. Command the Dreadhorde is a try out here. It could be good, it could be better elsewhere. I like that it scales though, and it could work well with a healthy life total. In terms of cuts, Connoisseur was a bit hefty at 4B, although Gravecrawler will be sad to see his bestie go. Swiftfoot Boots has more or less been irrelevant - there's almost nothing I need to cast and swing with right away, mostly because Varina's trigger doesn't need her to swing personally, and I've tried to work the curve in to casting her anyway. Fellwar Stone is a little tough to lose in terms of colour fixing, but hopefully things are fine moving forward with a reasonably flexible land selection.
Just wanted to say i made an account to thank you all for the breakdowns and discussion here---invaluable resource when i switched from Gisa and Geralf to Varina. I was hoping I might get some feedback on what I think is a pretty stable version of my own Zombie Tribal take on Varina.
In:
There's a few more cards I've considered on to be flex spots, without a reasonable replacement at present:
Liliana, Heretic Healer
Grimgrin, Corpse-born
Havengul Lich - this one saves itself purely on account of how many activated abilities it can assume.
Ajani's Welcome
I'll wait and see what comes out of WAR before any further changes, but happy with these ones.
I'd leave Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in your deck. 16 of your lands are incapable of generating B without a Chromatic Lantern online. The Tomb instantly turns any of your islands into Underground Sea, your Plains into Scrubland, turns Port Town into Arcane Sanctum, and allows your utility lands to tap for B. That's a lot of additional value in an arguably more difficult card to eliminate from the battlefield than Chromatic Lantern. You were right to ditch Cabal Coffers, and Expedition Map too, but I feel getting rid of the Tomb is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. That card does a significant amount on it's own, fully optimized manabase or not.
Also, I'd drop Liliana, Heretical Healer for Zombie Master upon bringing the Tomb back. Varina, Lich Queen needs you to be attacking to provide value to her ability. You are going to want evasion and any type of landwalk allows you to attack unopposed. If a single player has the Tomb out, while you have Zombie Master in play, everyone is food for the horde. Even without the Tomb in play, at least one opponent is likely to have something that counts as a Swamp in play. You only need one valid target for Varina to trigger. Every once in a while, that regenerate ability that all Zombies gains from the Master is relevant too.
If you can get City of Brass and Mana Confluence, I think your opinion on Havengul Lich will change. It's a value engine with casting ETB effects from the graveyard and it only gets better when someone sitting at the table is playing green. Casting your opponent's Acidic Slime, Bane of Progress, Reclamation Sage, and any other of the plethora of ETB effects makes Havengul Lich a value engine and that's without taking into consideration it's duplication of activated abilities. Those interactions are extremely valuable in Esper, where most of your artifact and enchantment hate is going to be a one-time cast. I value those interactions so much that I'd even recommend Gravespawn Sovereign if you can find one. Use your untapped tokens, even if you are getting them each turn from Tombstone Stairwell, to steal valuable creatures with abilities from graveyards.
Also, if you can acquire them, Grave Titan obviously has the potential to generate a ridiculous amount of Zombies. I'll gladly pay 4BB for a 6/6 that also tosses two 2/2 Zombies in just for ETB. I've also been able to get great value out of the new Rot Hulk, which is usually the same as tossing 3 or 4 Zombies into play for 5BB. I love Zombie Apocalypse and Patriarch's Bidding, but I am often looking for 2 or 3 specific Zombies when I cast them. The additional Zombies are just a bonus. Rot Hulk does that, but with a recastable body.
Lastly, if you have them or can find them, Alhammarret's Archive and Reconnaissance. It's a weaker version of Kindred Discovery in terms of draw power, but if it hadn't been older than Varina, I'd almost be inclined to believe that it was designed with Commander 2018 in mind with a prototype that originally had Varina at the helm of the Esper deck. It doubles the only immediate value you generate from Varina's looting ability. Reconnaissance is an absolute staple for Varina. Varina needs the horde to be aggressive to generate value. You aren't always going to have evasion and, to an extent, you are going to want to hold onto those tokens. Reconnaissance lets you be as aggressive as you like without having to worry about that.
EDIT: One more suggestion, again if you have it. Unholy Grotto over Volrath's Stronghold. In my version of Varina, 26 of my 30 creatures are Zombies. The only 4 that aren't are as follows: The Scarab God, Ghoulcaller Gisa, Gisa and Geralf, and Grave Titan. All are great, but none of them really do anything that isn't already done, albeit often in a weaker or more expensive fashion, by another creature with Zombie type. Your ratio of Zombies to non-Zombies is about the same.
Volrath's Stronghold is going to require that you, in most cases, tap three total lands, or use rocks, to put a single creature back on top of your library. That's a pretty hefty mana investment without something like Rooftop Storm or treasure tokens from Smothering Tithe. Unholy Grotto is the same effect for the majority of scenarios within your deck, but at the cost of only tapping two lands. Unholy Grotto is also cheaper for cheating Varina's commander tax.
If you can fit both, great, but I have yet to toss Volrath's Stronghold back into my own deck just because I cannot find a utility land slot I am willing to part with.
I’d been thinking about dropping Lili too. She’s limited in a few ways that make her less than ideal, and the Master is probably the last lord I definitely want in here.
The rest of your recommendations, while generally valuable, do make up a considerable monetary investment, and I’d love to be able to manage that, but at present I’m not able to front that sort of cash. Titan is enormously overpriced at present, as is the Archive (my thoughts on it are mixed anyway, it seems like a win more card). Pretty sure Grotto is up over 10 NZD for an uncommon land too, and confluence and brass are much the same. I get what you’re heading for, and I do appreciate the suggestion, but it’s currently out of reach for me.
Edit - I hope this doesn’t sound rude, I certainly don’t mean it to. I’m just building as best I can within the limitations RL has imposed on me, and regardless of monetary value I can definitely see the principles of deck building you’re suggesting.
Also, is playing Balthor the Defiled too cheeky, or does it have a place in a black creature heavy deck?
I haven’t tried Balthor, but I suspect that black being one of the more popular colours to run gives it a reasonable chance to backfire on you, at least in terms of board presence. That might not end up mattering so much if you’re resurrecting Noxious Ghoul though
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MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsAmalgam was in the initial build, yeah. From memory it was middling, if only because it needs other pieces to do anything more than just be a well costed vanilla beater. I’ve thought about adding it back in, but I’d want to go more all in on reanimation before I’d be comfortable with it holding its own. Aside from that, it’s at that place on the curve where I’m casting a lot of lords, so it’s got a tough job competing for a slot.
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Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsYeah, if there were more in the way of reanimation here it'd be a decent add. While I've found what I do run to be good at what it does, it doesn't come up often enough to justify a dedicated reanimation card that does nothing by itself. I've thought about adding some selective reanimators like Apprentice Necromancer, and I'd love a Patriarch's Bidding (my LGS has a foil copy that looks beautiful, but it's the only copy they have and it's $60NZD). In the case of Bidding, it's just too much to pay, and I've not been sure that Apprentice would do enough to justify a slot. I guess it plays well with Relentless Dead and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, so maybe it'd be worth testing.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears(I know buying singles is easier/cheaper, but my wife really likes experiencing the new sets this way, and it's a good way to keep her involved and happy)
Maybe this sounds blasphemous, but zombie tribal seems a bit of a trap?
That's why I considered the STAX control, playing only 10 to 15 creatures max. That leaves room for more counters, smothering tithe, mystic remora, ghostly prison, tutors, etc. Varina, makes her own zombies so if we can slow down the opponents while steadily accruing resources. We can bring down Varina later and then create zombies with her abilities.
I'm not sure, still testing and trying to make it work. Some days feel great, others I think I should just build a Yuriko deck instead...
Ultimately, this community can help you with the deck, theme, or card choices you talk about, but we don’t know your meta and the people you play against. Give us some context about the type of deck you want to build, and we can give you more quality feedback.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI have experienced the flaws you mentioned about tribal: weak to mass removal and depends on the combat step. Especially Varina decks that play with Archfiend of Ifnir. That combo is amazing when it goes off but I imagine that would make my playgroup target me every game. For example, earlier today I was in a 4 player edh game online against Meren, Niv (Parun) and a third commander I can't remember. I Archfiend of Ifnir and two zombies on board while the Niv commander was on my opponent's board. The Meren player had his commander, a few monsters and over a half dozen tokens that got powered up whenever he played a land. Now, this looks hopeless at first since those are more powerful commanders but I held a Windfall in my hand until I knew I could discard 6, then proceeded to wipe the board. It was glorious.
However, I feel moving away from tribal will make it keep up with the higher tiered decks. I think 'STAX reanimator' is the way to go. My draft is something like this:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varina-stax-reanimator/
I'm not sure about it, maybe need more reanimation?
*EDIT* Fixed the link.
Here’s my thoughts on the issue:
Any strategy you play is going to have a flaw to exploit. Ultimately if you want to roll with competitive crowds you’re going to have to look at some sort of combo variant, with control elements to keep the wheels coming off. If that sounds like something you want to do, I’d suggest Aetherflux Reservoir, some storm cards as fit, maybe Rooftop Storm if you wanna get janky, some altars (ashnod’s and phyrexian) and a really low creature curve with some easy recurrence. There’d be some wins in there somewhere - apologies for the vagueness, it’s just not an area I’m interested in personally.
Stax has it’s weaknesses too, as does reanimation. They’d both do just fine under Varina, but it is going to be meta dependent and it’s going to come down to building in a balance of self advantage and board detriment. Esper has some crushing board locks available to it, so it’s not a bad idea.
Ultimately, with my build I’ve tried to straddle some of these areas. Tribal gets pretty casual, but there’s enough value there to make it work these days - provides you run creatures of value, and not just because they’re birds of a feather. Reanimation can be resilient, but again you need to make it efficient and make sure you’re bringing back value, at a cost you’re happy with. Stax can work, so long as you’re able to do more in the hostile environment you create than anyone else.
So yes, I agree - pure tribal zombies is a trap. If you’re building on any theme, you’ve sacrificed success for a different metric of value, whether you realize it or not. While this deck does have some tribal leanings, the commander supports that, and I’ve tried to make a point of not running creatures that don’t deserve a place.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varina-stax-reanimator/?cb=1556886030
Like you, I am not interested in a meta that involves infinites, hax combos, and turn 3 wins, so I will avoid that playgroup. However, it would be interesting to build a Varina deck that doesn't instantly fold to decks that may have a fair combo or two.
Even with the weaknesses of STAX/Reanimator, I think I will try to build my Varina around those themes. The link in my post above should work now and show a rough draft of the deck I would like to build.
My main objective is to build resources while enforcing a STAX early game and then slowly build my zombie token army while holding up counters in the midgame. Then in the late-game I want to be maintaining some control while reanimating.
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
1 Putrid Imp
1 Zombie Master
1 God-Eternal Oketra
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Dreadhorde Invasion
1 Read the Runes
1 Whispering Madness
1 Tainted Field
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Swamp
1 Ajani's Welcome
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Festering Mummy
1 Binding Mummy
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Liliana's Reaver
1 Frantic Search
1 Notion Rain
So, with all of this there's some big changes. I think it's going to take some playtesting to see how it all goes. I'm mostly pretty happy with these changes, and much happier with the manabase in general. Some of the changes here are a little more aggressive and suggest a more attacking plan (Zombie Master[/c]), and most of the drops are things I've had in hand and not wanted to cast before. The looting spells I'm happy to interchange as they work. Whispering Madness is a cute trick I've tried in Dralnu before that works really well with Archfiend of Ifnir, but if it doesn't play out here I'll happily swap in something smaller scale like Frantic Search or Notion Rain. I still have a copy of Soul Diviner and Command the Dreadhorde to pick up, so we'll see what happens in terms of cuts there. The only thing I’ve added here I’m not overly sure about is Ashnod’s Altar - I don’t want to combo out with it, and I’m pretty sure it’ll be either this or Nim Deathmantle, but not both. Too close to infinite. I can’t see any other obvious degeneracy, but if it gets gross the Altar is likely to go. I want the instant speed sac and the mana boost is nice too, I just don’t want to be able to combo out.
I haven't forgotten about this, either. I do have thoughts, so watch this space. I just need to catch up on life, and should be able to give you some meaningful feedback overnight.
So, I finally managed to squeeze in some time to have a look at this. I don't think you can call it a pure stax build, but I get what you're aiming at. Here's my thoughts, first on specific cards and then in general.
So in general, what's your way to win? You're looking to stall out long enough to be able to reanimate with generous aplomb, and that's something I can fully get behind. But it's not going to get you over the line in and of itself. This is part of why I've built my aristocrats into my build - every time a zombie dies or comes back into play I get a little closer to the finish line, whether I swing or not. You've got yourself a lot of redundancy in being able to maintain a board state, but it doesn't necessarily win you the game. In this sort of deck, you've got a couple of options. You can last long enough to assemble some sort of combo, you can get critical mass and swing until no one is left, you can pack in some game enders like Exsanguinate or Rise of the Dark Realms, or you can make your board state painful to remove (this latter has been my preference to date). I'm just not seeing anything that really gets you over the line, is all.
There's also a heavy reliance on the amass mechanic. While I think there's some merit there, it's a weird mechanic, in that it's not going to go wide as much as you will want it to, it'll go tall. And that directly conflicts with your Meekstone. If you're looking to get lots of critters running around, I generally think there's better ways to go. I've already mentioned Tombstone Stairwell (seriously, it's sooo good), there's plenty of other options too - Noosegraf Mob has been excellent for me, Army of the Damned could do work, Rise from the Tides is fun in a more spellslinger build (which this has an element of, it could work), Lich Lord of Unx gets you critters and gives you a win condition, there's plenty of options available. I just think if you're going wide with tokens this mechanic is something you should go light on. If you're using the armies for sacrifice, you'd be fine to go heavy on this mechanic. I do like the evasion the eternals give you, but it's a little narrow.
A lot of your bigger impact spells are instant and sorcery, with obviously some strong creature inclusions, but still - lots of spells. Have you considered either including Dralnu, Lich Lord, or retooling this for use under the same? I run a control/reanimator build under Dralnu myself, and honestly it's a brutal deck - it's non combo mostly and definitely doesn't go infinite, but some games you'd have trouble believing it. Just shy of competitive combo, but it can fully spank the crap out of a table without blinking when it's running well. The other thing that might help is God-Eternal Kefnet. I haven't had a chance to playtest myself, but it seems a strong inclusion considering the weight of instants and sorceries you're into here (I've just added this for testing in my Dralnu build, too).
Feel free to respond accordingly; apologies if all of this sounds overly critical, I think I see what you're trying to achieve it just needs a bit more work.
Post changes, the mana seems a lot stronger now. I had no problems colour fixing last game, draw was reasonable and ended up winning yet again from Tombstone Stairwell, this time paired with Vengeful Dead - literally the worst possible outcome for my opponents. I was making 6 tokens a turn, then there was 2, 14, and 6 again, for a grand total of 28 life lost each turn for each player. I passed turn and the game ended more or less on the spot. Such a good card, it was just a savage way to end the game.
What I've been able to test of changes thus far is fairly limited, but Ashnod's Altar was a strong addition, I'm really happy with it here. Dreadhorde Invasion was decent too - it's not Bitterblossom, and never will be. I'd definitely prefer it went wide than tall, but that's alright. It gives early presence, and with lords in play it stands at least a reasonable chance of hitting the lifelink threshold. If nothing else, having a chump blocker each turn is great, and repeatable early drops for sacrifice value is good too, so it pairs really quite well with Altar, Carrion Feeder or Ghoulcaller Gisa.
Putrid Imp is great in conjunction with both Archfiend of Ifnir and Diregraf Colossus, for removal and cheap zombie casting, while still being able to attack with evasion.
All in all fairly happy - the deck does get mana hungry. Havengul Lich is pricey, but the Altar helps somewhat, it's just a slow control. The life loss is pretty ample at present, but then I haven't seen Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in action yet, and haven't yet hit Invasion's lifelink threshold - I don't see it as a major issue, you can still win from 1 life, and the game I just played had two RBGW decks, one running Erebos, God of the Dead and the other running Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. So far so good.
As far as your midrange build, have you considered Aether Vial and Mutavault? I want to test Aether Vial as it allows us to put a free monster on the board on turn 3. Which is especially nice since we want as many zombies on board when we summon Varina. Mutavault is nice because it's a land that can be a "zombie", especially after a board wipe. Plus I noticed you play Thespian's Stage, so you can have another target for it. I'm curious, why play Thespian?
Thespian is here for options. You never can have too many. Even if it’s copying Path of Ancestry or Command Tower it’s fixing colours and getting value. Otherwise it can be a copy of whatever other cool stuff is on the field, be it Maze of Ith or Dark Depths or a Strip Mine variant. Corner case tech isn’t always valuable, but when it is it really is.
In:
Despark
Soul Diviner
Command the Dreadhorde
Out:
Fellwar Stone
Swiftfoot Boots
Corpse Connoisseur
I've played a couple of games recently where I'd thought 'damn, this is why you run Despark'. I want to see how it goes, and I think it's possibly a good add. I've talked already about all the niches I think Soul Diviner can hit, but I also like that it's lower on the curve than Corpse Connoisseur. Command the Dreadhorde is a try out here. It could be good, it could be better elsewhere. I like that it scales though, and it could work well with a healthy life total. In terms of cuts, Connoisseur was a bit hefty at 4B, although Gravecrawler will be sad to see his bestie go. Swiftfoot Boots has more or less been irrelevant - there's almost nothing I need to cast and swing with right away, mostly because Varina's trigger doesn't need her to swing personally, and I've tried to work the curve in to casting her anyway. Fellwar Stone is a little tough to lose in terms of colour fixing, but hopefully things are fine moving forward with a reasonably flexible land selection.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varinas-deadboys/
I finally pulled the trigger on Tombstone Stairwell and pulled Army of the Damned for it. Feels like a great swap.