I too have been trying to build Varina with a midrange feel, although my own build skews more towards control. Something I've found to be very good with her is to double up on removal/counters/asymmetrical wipes such as Cyclonic Rift, keeping your opponents honest and slowing down the game... And then you drop Rise from the Tides alongside a Time Warp kind of effect: with Mystical Tutor, you can do this with just 8 mana, by tutoring Temporal Mastery on opponent's eot. On the extra turn you cast Varina and attack with the zombie tokens: the sheer advantage gained from dong so is usually enough to put you in the lead.
Damn, she's more popular than I thought. Haven't seen too many lists out there.
My Dralnu build is probably closer to what you're going for in your build - it's very control oriented and dictates the pace of the game nicely. I did initially like the idea of fitting a counter suite in here, but there honestly isn't a lot of space to cover too much ground, on top of which I don't have anything to really recur control spells like that, whereas Dralnu is #1 OG Boss in that respect. So I've kind of cut it back, and now I sort of focus on keeping consistent board presence, choosing my plays carefully and eking out advantage until I'm ready to dominate.
Re Phyrexian Altar - I know . Honestly, adding infinite is not something I want to do, it's just not me - besides which the Altar is damn pricey. I already have infinite here with Carrion Feeder, Grimgrin Corpse-Born and the aforementioned Gravecrawler and Diregraf Captain/Vengeful Dead/Wayward Servant/Plague Belcher suite. I try not to use it that way to be honest - I get that people like having a win con if needed, but I don't like ending the game on the spot too easily. If it were a two card combo I'd pull those pieces immediately. As it is being a 3 card combo is pushing it, but at least I have the option of not going through with it.
If you have your reasons for not running Altar, then I won't press the matter further.
I mean yeah - combo just isn't my jam. Even if I have it available chances are I won't press the button.
That aside, to return to my initial suggestion: in order to make the most of Rise from the Tides and build the deck the way I was suggesting, you don't necessarily need to go full control, with counters and whatnot. Just a midrange-y suit of card quality (tutors, Brainstorm, Telling Time, Lim-Dul's Vault which I don't put in card tags because I dunno how to do that weird u on my keyboard), removal (you're already running some great ones, you could expand a bit with things like Mortify, Vindicate and Anguished Unmaking) and a few extra turn spells would be more than enough. If you checked out the deck I attempted building for Varina a couple days ago, you'll see that I tried to focus it ENTIRELY around casting a huge Rise... And yeah, that was quite crap, so no, I'm not suggesting you should do the same. But really, it doesn't take much to make Rise big, so I really insist that you give it a try.
Oh and speaking of removal: I see you have a sacrifice sub-theme, to the point that you're running Open the Graves to capitalize on it... So how about Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos for further field control?
I used to run Rise from the Tides in Dralnu, and it got silly. It's a really specific card to build around though, and I ended up cutting it. Nonetheless, I totally get the allure - I can't see it fitting in this build, but there's no reason it couldn't pull some weight in others.
The attrition, yeah, I'd like another copy of Dictate and Pact. That's kind of a money thing for the present. I've got a few Dictates in other places, but none spare for the moment, and my LGS account is sort of tapped out for now.
As far as cantripping Brainstorm type effects, how good have they been for you? I cut my suite of these for not really doing enough, and honestly Mystic Remora has been a great replacement. I'd be interested in at least one extra turn spell, probably Temporal Mastery would fit best with Library of Leng and Aminatou, the Fateshifter to hit that miracle cost. It's probably not a crucial part to include, but it would help me to speed up my game state a little.
Concerning creatures: if you're going to take my advice and include more removals/Grave Pact to make enemy creatures die a lot, then I really think you should play Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, as he makes your removal more deadly while creating more zombies. And then there is Dralnu, since you brought him up: in the topic you wrote about him, you yourself stated that the beauty of that guy is that he let you make the most of looting effects... And well, Varina is essentially a giant looter, so I see no reason not to bring the guy along.
I had thought of adding Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in as a hatebear/token generator. He's pretty awesome. Have you done any playtesting with him yourself? As far as Dralnu, Lich Lord goes, yes, he's a zombie, and that flashback is great. His first ability is pretty crippling though, unless you have a way to play around it. I think there's a chance he'd fit in more of a toolbox build, but he's a bit high on my curve at present, and the thought of Blasphemous Act hitting Dralnu when I'm not building around him is pretty brutal.
I'm mainly discussing these matters with you because I want to eventually manage to craft a Varina list that doesn't suck, and well, bouncing ideas off another person helps both sides improve Smile
Absolutely! This is why we post on these sites, I love the back and forth discussion. It helps get a clear idea of what works in which builds. Especially one such as this, where there's no really obvious build path.
On Rise: I maintain that I see it as the card to go when building Varina, but since it's clear you disagree, I won't insist. After all, isn't that the beauty of EDH? The same commander can be built in different ways.
It's not so much that I disagree, it's just that it's definitely not something for my build. With a pretty paltry list of instants and sorceries, there's really not much here to maximise it's impact - if I ran more, I could totally see it, but at 5U it really needs to hold its weight. And yeah, totally agree about the beauty of EDH. It's part of why I like commanders like Varina - there are different avenues to take, no optimal path, plenty of strategies to wind in. I'm brainstorm my Glissa build at the moment in the same way - she's a strong commander, but so wide open it's hard to see how to build her.
On cantrips: Brainstorm is essentially an alternative to Mystical Tutor to set up Miracles play, which is always relevant given the precon Varina is from: Temporal Mastery aside, Entreat the Dead is also a beautiful card. Ponder and Portent can similarly help with Miracle plays, but for me their main appeal lies in the fact that, unfortunately, I've never been able to procure any fetches, so my decks are never the most stable in terms of mana which, when playing with 3 colors, can prove problematic... So yeah, those cantrips help me hit land drops.
I have similar issues with lands FWIW. Tricolour isn't easy without fetches and high priced manabases. I think there's a couple of ways to mitigate that, one of which is the route you've taken of cantripping. Another is to make up for it with draw, which is what I've tried to do; after all, there's enough reanimation here that I can toss what I don't need right now and still keep a board presence. It sort of works, but I probably need one or two more solid draw engines to really get the deck humming.
On Kalitas: I haven't really made any major testing of these ideas of mine for Varina yet. That said, I've ran the guy in literally every single deck I've ever built that included any form of destruction/attrition, and he's always proven to be a MVP, even in decks whose theme he didn't fit at all: exiling the stuff you kill while making your board bigger is just so good, and he's an absolute killer against the likes of Meren of Clan Nel Toth. So yeah, if he felt that good, to the point that I was ALWAYS happy to see him whenever I drew him, in decks whose theme he didn't even interact with beyond helping with removal, I can only imagine that in this deck, whose theme he actually benefits and actively supports, he would feel even better.
Yep, that sells it pretty much. Exiling is solid, I run plenty of sweeps, and Noxious Ghoul is...well...noxious. Plus he makes his own swarm for no extra cost, is well costed and has lifelink. He is undeniably strong.
On Dralnu: well if you make a big enough board of zombies, you can sac those since they'd die to Blasphemous anyway? I mean, given how the card works, it seems likely to me that they'd drop it when your board is big enough to not be completely crippled. Plus, are cards that deal damage to creatures even that common to begin with? Blasphemous is a card I see very sporadically, and I don't think I've ever seen other damage-based board wipes in any deck I've played against. So yeah, at least in my meta Dralnu doesn't feel like the risk of his first effect backfiring would be THAT high... But of course, your meta might be different, so yeah.
I don't see a ton of direct damage, but it's scary having to sac lands. Having him at the helm is enough to know that. It wouldn't be the end of the world to play around, you just need some boots and/or a sac outlet at all times. For me it again comes down to not running enough instants and sorceries to really make him a viable add. In a miracle/cantrip/toolbox, he would be decent.
By the way, as we were having this conversation I reworked my formerly sucky build, cutting redundant removal and excessive extra turn cards to make room for a lineup of creatures similar to yours. Here's how it looks now: of course it's not like I believe this would be the "definitive build", there's probably a loot of room for improvement, but when I think of a Varina deck that can make use of both Rise and the Altar combo, this feels like it would be midrange-y enough.
So yeah, just had a look. It's an interesting build. There's a couple things you could do to make it super fun.
Have you considered Isochron Scepter? You have ten instants it could imprint, and then there's the old Dramatic Reversal trick for infinite mana. Looking at it, too, you could definitely make room for Dralnu in there. He could pull his weight. I'd probably switch out Possessed Skaab and make no further impact on your curve.
In a similar looting style mechanism, Dream Halls could do good things for you. Toss cheap cards to play expensive ones, use them later with Dralnu or exile them to make zombies. If you wanna get real janky you could do some Mirror of Fate/Doomsday shenanigans. Not sure what the end game is there (Approach of the Second Sun? Lab Man? Massive Exsanguinate? Flash in Rise of the Tides?) but it could give you some fun options.
The main wincon is the Altar combo, or just making a huge army and abusing it with the likes of Scarab God. That said, now that you mention it I draw enough cards, and I have enough instant/sorcery recurson from grave, that Approach could be a cool secondary wincon. I'll try that out
Yeah, I mean it could work. Totally did miss Dralnu - he's honestly one of my favourite legends of all time, that art is fierce and he's so strong in the right place.
So it's been an interesting couple of games with Varina. The last few I've had I've had massive mana screw. Previous game, didn't draw a plains until turn 12 or so. This last game I went through most of the game on 4 lands. Nonetheless, the game went well. I managed to set up a decent board state with some recursion, and landed Vengeful Dead and Plague Belcher at once, and just choked the table out, mostly.
A couple of reflections;
Plague Belcher and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is super nice. With Gravecrawler you got infinite, or at least enough life loss to end the game on the spot without having a loop you can't stop. Not an intentional thing, but it's there. This last game I had both out spamming Festering Mummy counters hither and thither, which was super powerful in itself.
I'd highly suggest getting some fetch lands for the deck if you can afford them, really helps with mana fixing.
Apart from that I find the Signets really useful in my build.
Aww, all the posts I had made to contribute to this project are gone. Curse you, EU privacy policies!
Anyway, I have been testing Approach like we discussed: on the plus side, if you can cast it while Varina is out then you're more or less guaranteed to redraw it by the next turn, making it ridiculously easy to win off t. On the minus side, the card is really telephoned: your opponents will KNOW that you're planning to cast it next turn, and they'll keep a counter open for it. This means that you need to pack counters of your own in order to protect Approach... Which is both very mana intensive and problematic in terms of overall deck balance, as it forces you to lean more on the control-heavy, counter-reliant side, which is not what Varina should be doing. So yeah, all in all Approach was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Have you had any luck with it?
I'd highly suggest getting some fetch lands for the deck if you can afford them, really helps with mana fixing.
Apart from that I find the Signets really useful in my build.
Yeah, fetches aren’t really in my budget. I’ll probably pick up the other two shocks now that they’ve been reprinted, but I think generally the lands have just been screwy draws, and it’s as much a draw thing as it is colour fixing. One thing I really want for the build is Corpse Harvester, which will get me either swamp shock as well as Fetid Pools. Otherwise I guess I could go cheap fetches with Evolving Wilds and such. I’m just not keen to spend money on Fetches when I don’t run anything here to get more than one use from them. It is a good suggestion, though, thanks for the input!
Aww, all the posts I had made to contribute to this project are gone. Curse you, EU privacy policies!
Anyway, I have been testing Approach like we discussed: on the plus side, if you can cast it while Varina is out then you're more or less guaranteed to redraw it by the next turn, making it ridiculously easy to win off t. On the minus side, the card is really telephoned: your opponents will KNOW that you're planning to cast it next turn, and they'll keep a counter open for it. This means that you need to pack counters of your own in order to protect Approach... Which is both very mana intensive and problematic in terms of overall deck balance, as it forces you to lean more on the control-heavy, counter-reliant side, which is not what Varina should be doing. So yeah, all in all Approach was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Have you had any luck with it?
Oh no, now it looks like I talk to myself, haha!
Glad to hear Approach is working out on for you - I’ve been thinking about how easy it is to hit that second cast in the last few days. I came up with this janky combo of Venser, Shaper Savant and Approach. It’d need tons of mana or Dream Halls/Omniscience but it’s doable. I haven’t tried running Approach here to be honest. There’s just not enough top deck manipulation to make it worth it. Also - Scroll Rack would be super nice to get a second casting of Approach more quickly. Not sure if I remember seeing it in your build or not, might be worth a shot!
I'd highly suggest getting some fetch lands for the deck if you can afford them, really helps with mana fixing.
Apart from that I find the Signets really useful in my build.
Yeah, fetches aren’t really in my budget. I’ll probably pick up the other two shocks now that they’ve been reprinted, but I think generally the lands have just been screwy draws, and it’s as much a draw thing as it is colour fixing. One thing I really want for the build is Corpse Harvester, which will get me either swamp shock as well as Fetid Pools. Otherwise I guess I could go cheap fetches with Evolving Wilds and such. I’m just not keen to spend money on Fetches when I don’t run anything here to get more than one use from them. It is a good suggestion, though, thanks for the input!
I understand that, they are getting on the pricey side. Corpse Harvester is a nice stand in and can get Zombies too. I haven't actually played him yet.
I play fetches in all my decks because I own them, the deck thinning is mostly mute in EDH but I like insuring I have access to the colors I need.
Yeah, totally understand. If I had copies I’d play them, but buying them fresh now is damn expensive. Besides, I have like 14 decks that could use some money spent on them. If I start on one, it’s a slippery slope!
I don’t think Corpse Harvester is going to single handedly end any mana base problems but it will help to some degree. I think adding some early draw options will help (Rhystic Study really needs a reprint), and I guess if I get desperate I can add things like Darksteel Ingot and such. I do think it’s predominantly just been a couple of games with terrible draw though; I had one game recently (not with this deck) where I mulled down to 4 before I saw a land. The price of playing mostly online is dealing with a shaky RNG.
I've got my play sets from my Modern days (my Legacy deck don't play duals because I don't have enough) but that's hardly enough for the amount of decks I own. Thankfully most places/people I'm play with are fine with proxies if I've got the card.
I think the signets would be a good fit if you can find room. While not perfect they are good mana fixing.
I did have signets in here at one point. I found them....frustrating. Having to hold up mana to use them made things problematic, and this deck is thirsty for mana. Ideally adding Mana Crypt and Mana Vault would be great, but I don't have the money for that.
Yep, that's the plan. Just waiting for release prices to settle and stockpile a bit of trade/cash. Tossing up a couple of extra adds, too - I'd wondered about adding Kaya's Wrath, and maybe Smothering Tithe. I'm already definitely picking up Tithe for Bruna, so I guess I'll see how it plays out there first.
Small utility change to the land base; Vault of the Archangel comes in in lieu of Crypt of Agadeem. Crypt takes a lot of setting up, and it isn't frequently relevant. We all know it's no Coffers. Vault I've run in several other builds that turn sideways or swarm, and it's a decent trick to have up your sleeve. If it does nothing more than keep you in the game it's doing well, and it often does more.
Obviously mana fixing mostly, still waiting on shocks. They're still a bit much at present, and I needed to share the love around my decks this time. Liliana should be a good add. All abilities are relevant, she has a pseudo Buried Alive for her first ability anyway, some conditional removal, andher ultimate is very usable and low costed. It gives me another reanimation option, and obviously it'll be nice to reset her with Aminatou, the Fateshifter. Should be fun.
Hi toctheyounger77! I made an MTG Salvation account just to comment here Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of your comments but there were two cards in particular that were discussed so far that you dismissed for various reasons, I just wanted some clarification on your thought process.
1) Archfiend of Ifnir You said that you know it's a great card in the right deck (repeatable, asymmetric board wipe) but thought you'd need more cycling to support it. But it also triggers off of discard, and Varina lets you repeatably discard every single turn that she's out and have zombies attacking. That wipes away all opponents' mana dorks, utility creatures, even commanders if you swing w/ like 1-4 zombies. So I don't think you'd need any more cycling at all. So I guess my question is, are you shying away from it because you don't like things relying on having Varina in play? Archfiend does cost more than Citywide Bust or Supreme Verdict. Just curious. It looks like a house of a card to me.
2) Alhammarret's Archive You mentioned it does nothing w/o other card draw, and you'd rather play Rhystic Study. I'm all for Rhystic Study, but again, you have repeatable card draw in the command zone. Even if this particular list doesn't rely on its general, she's always there to turn on Alhammarret's Archive. Say you swing with 3 zombies. Instead of just sculpting hand, now you draw 6 discard 3. That's real, repeatable card draw. Similar to Archfiend, I could see you shying away from it because of the mana cost. But just for some context, my LGS almost exclusively plays cEDH and all of our lists have an average cmc of 1.2 to 2.3. Often the most expensive cards are paradox engine (sure there's Jin-Gitaxias / Razaketh types stuff but that gets cheated into play). Personally, even at 5cmc, I'd still run Alhammarret's Archive in my meta for its absurd power.
Maybe I'm just envisioning a different deck that makes more use of Varina than your list. But these cards don't seem to require extra build around to give absurd advantage. I suppose the difference is that I'm building a more controlling list which could defend Archfiend & Archive, and requires my to draw cards for answer density, & sculpt hand for a combo finish. Another thing that could be biasing me is the life gain from Archive can fuel Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, and Aetherflux Reservoir.
I think these are really solid suggestions, drippyCat. I first underestimated how powerful the Archfiend was until I RTFC and saw that it triggered on Discard. It quickly found a slot in my Varina list before I dismantled it to make room for Aminatou.
drippyCat, it sounds like you have a semi-cEDH list of Varina floating around. I'd love to see it, since I agree that Varina's filtering is the real deal.
I also really like her in conjunction with Lich's Mastery, which I'm still trying to find a viable strategy with. Maybe some sort of Control deck with Mastery and Extra Turns to just accrue cards and control the game until I can combo off somehow? Dunno. I know you're not a fan of combos, toc, but Varina has sparked by fancy for a combo build for sure.
Hi toctheyounger77! I made an MTG Salvation account just to comment here Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of your comments but there were two cards in particular that were discussed so far that you dismissed for various reasons, I just wanted some clarification on your thought process.
Welcome and thanks for the first comment here, I'm truly honored. And absolutely happy to discuss these potential additions.
Archfiend of Ifnir is absolutely devastating - it ends games in my Dralnu build. On first glance I had thought there was probably not enough loot and discard here to support it. On a second glance I think it could work - I'm always a little hesitant to add something simply based on an ability my commander has, but there's other synergy here too - Cryptbreaker, Forgotten Creation, Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, Necromancer's Stockpile, Ancient Excavation, Forbid, Geier Reach Sanitarium. I'd probably feel happier having a Windfall here too before adding it, but it's a definite possibility, and probably something I've overlooked unnecessarily.
Alhamarret's Archive you're going to have to work harder with to convince me. No doubt it's strong, but at that time in the curve I'm flush anyway, so it kind of seems a little winmore, you know? Early draw is what I want, and it's why I'd still go for Rhystic Study over Archive. It's a great card, and ideally if I had a spare copy it'd probably make its way in here. Both Study and Archive are expensive, and I won't lie - that is part of why it's not in here, but almost 100% of what this deck needs to be more reliably what I want it to be is early draw/filtering/land drop/colour fixing.
It does sound a little like we're building different decks - I tend to shy away from cEDH and combo where I can (I'm aware there's some loops in the deck, and they're totally incidental, based purely on cards I want to run regardless) - I prefer to go for sub-optimal, 'game hard' decks that game strongly but don't quite go infinite or combo off. Nonetheless, these suggestions are worth consideration so I do appreciate the critique.
I also really like her in conjunction with Lich's Mastery, which I'm still trying to find a viable strategy with. Maybe some sort of Control deck with Mastery and Extra Turns to just accrue cards and control the game until I can combo off somehow? Dunno. I know you're not a fan of combos, toc, but Varina has sparked by fancy for a combo build for sure.
This could pull some weight, for sure! I think it's definitely a card for a control build though. You'd want maximum protection to reduce that downside, so I'd be seeing Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement, Fog Bank variants and a ton more control to make sure everything stays intact while you grab what you need to win. Totally doable though - there's plenty of ways in these colours to make life gain a thing aside from Varina anyway - soul sisters, aristocrats, Ajani's Welcome, Tendrils of Agony, sac for life effects, and I guess your win con would probably be fine as Aetherflux Reservoir, Tendrils or Torment/Exsanguinate. It might even be a decent place for Null Profusion, to go off all in one turn.
As an aside, Aetherflux Reservoir is a card I personally hate. It's far too easy to abuse and far too difficult to stop going off for me to take it seriously outside of cEDH builds, so I KOS it wherever I see it. It's undoubtedly very very good, it's just a bit too gross for anything outside of a competitive build, and I'm always a little disappointed when I see it as a win con. That's just me though, it's not my thing.
I can see how Alhammarret's Archive would be win more if it doesn't win (lower tutor density / not going to combo). Haha I'm remembering how context-dependent everything is in EDH.
drippyCat, it sounds like you have a semi-cEDH list of Varina floating around. I'd love to see it, since I agree that Varina's filtering is the real deal.
Hahaha I don't have a list yet, just research, some pools of cards to brew from, various game plan drafts. I just started brewing her a couple days ago. The ironic thing is, I set out to brew a deck that's specifically FOR FUN and doesn't go for infinite combos. A deck that I can play outside of our tournaments with players newer to the format, or those that are looking to play at a different power than what competes in our events. Right now I don't have anything outside of that top tier power level and I'm finding it really challenging and interesting to evaluate cards differently for this Varina project! I could brew you up my idea of cEDH Varina but it's what I'm trying to avoid :b . It'd be strong, but most likely sub-par compared with other cEDH decks.
I can see how Alhammarret's Archive would be win more if it doesn't win (lower tutor density / not going to combo). Haha I'm remembering how context-dependent everything is in EDH.
Oh I'm definitely playtesting Archfiend (at this point instead of Decree of Pain, which is just too expensive). I expect it'll be decent. I likeRuthless Sniper for like a Scorpion God build, but it wouldn't do enough to count here. Archifend is fairly well costed anyway - it comes down at the same time as Noxious Ghoul.
The Archive I would totally still consider - I run Mind's Eye after all. It could be a beautiful thing. The lifegain would make Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim more relevant too. Mostly it's just not the first draw option I'd go for (I'm picking up Midnight Reaper from my LGS soon - it'll go in for Zombie Trailblazer), and I'd definitely want to wait for a reprint to lower the price before I pick it up.
I started writing a bunch but deleted it. I just realized that I don't actually know:
Is this thread just for toctheyounger77's list?
Or can it be used to discuss any/all Varina esper lists?
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Damn, she's more popular than I thought. Haven't seen too many lists out there.
My Dralnu build is probably closer to what you're going for in your build - it's very control oriented and dictates the pace of the game nicely. I did initially like the idea of fitting a counter suite in here, but there honestly isn't a lot of space to cover too much ground, on top of which I don't have anything to really recur control spells like that, whereas Dralnu is #1 OG Boss in that respect. So I've kind of cut it back, and now I sort of focus on keeping consistent board presence, choosing my plays carefully and eking out advantage until I'm ready to dominate.
Re Phyrexian Altar - I know
I mean yeah - combo just isn't my jam. Even if I have it available chances are I won't press the button.
I used to run Rise from the Tides in Dralnu, and it got silly. It's a really specific card to build around though, and I ended up cutting it. Nonetheless, I totally get the allure - I can't see it fitting in this build, but there's no reason it couldn't pull some weight in others.
The attrition, yeah, I'd like another copy of Dictate and Pact. That's kind of a money thing for the present. I've got a few Dictates in other places, but none spare for the moment, and my LGS account is sort of tapped out for now.
As far as cantripping Brainstorm type effects, how good have they been for you? I cut my suite of these for not really doing enough, and honestly Mystic Remora has been a great replacement. I'd be interested in at least one extra turn spell, probably Temporal Mastery would fit best with Library of Leng and Aminatou, the Fateshifter to hit that miracle cost. It's probably not a crucial part to include, but it would help me to speed up my game state a little.
I had thought of adding Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in as a hatebear/token generator. He's pretty awesome. Have you done any playtesting with him yourself? As far as Dralnu, Lich Lord goes, yes, he's a zombie, and that flashback is great. His first ability is pretty crippling though, unless you have a way to play around it. I think there's a chance he'd fit in more of a toolbox build, but he's a bit high on my curve at present, and the thought of Blasphemous Act hitting Dralnu when I'm not building around him is pretty brutal.
Absolutely! This is why we post on these sites, I love the back and forth discussion. It helps get a clear idea of what works in which builds. Especially one such as this, where there's no really obvious build path.
It's not so much that I disagree, it's just that it's definitely not something for my build. With a pretty paltry list of instants and sorceries, there's really not much here to maximise it's impact - if I ran more, I could totally see it, but at 5U it really needs to hold its weight. And yeah, totally agree about the beauty of EDH. It's part of why I like commanders like Varina - there are different avenues to take, no optimal path, plenty of strategies to wind in. I'm brainstorm my Glissa build at the moment in the same way - she's a strong commander, but so wide open it's hard to see how to build her.
I have similar issues with lands FWIW. Tricolour isn't easy without fetches and high priced manabases. I think there's a couple of ways to mitigate that, one of which is the route you've taken of cantripping. Another is to make up for it with draw, which is what I've tried to do; after all, there's enough reanimation here that I can toss what I don't need right now and still keep a board presence. It sort of works, but I probably need one or two more solid draw engines to really get the deck humming.
Yep, that sells it pretty much. Exiling is solid, I run plenty of sweeps, and Noxious Ghoul is...well...noxious. Plus he makes his own swarm for no extra cost, is well costed and has lifelink. He is undeniably strong.
I don't see a ton of direct damage, but it's scary having to sac lands. Having him at the helm is enough to know that. It wouldn't be the end of the world to play around, you just need some boots and/or a sac outlet at all times. For me it again comes down to not running enough instants and sorceries to really make him a viable add. In a miracle/cantrip/toolbox, he would be decent.
So yeah, just had a look. It's an interesting build. There's a couple things you could do to make it super fun.
Have you considered Isochron Scepter? You have ten instants it could imprint, and then there's the old Dramatic Reversal trick for infinite mana. Looking at it, too, you could definitely make room for Dralnu in there. He could pull his weight. I'd probably switch out Possessed Skaab and make no further impact on your curve.
In a similar looting style mechanism, Dream Halls could do good things for you. Toss cheap cards to play expensive ones, use them later with Dralnu or exile them to make zombies. If you wanna get real janky you could do some Mirror of Fate/Doomsday shenanigans. Not sure what the end game is there (Approach of the Second Sun? Lab Man? Massive Exsanguinate? Flash in Rise of the Tides?) but it could give you some fun options.
Yeah, I mean it could work. Totally did miss Dralnu - he's honestly one of my favourite legends of all time, that art is fierce and he's so strong in the right place.
Best of luck!
A couple of reflections;
Plague Belcher and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is super nice. With Gravecrawler you got infinite, or at least enough life loss to end the game on the spot without having a loop you can't stop. Not an intentional thing, but it's there. This last game I had both out spamming Festering Mummy counters hither and thither, which was super powerful in itself.
Relentless Dead is a mana thirsty zombie. Nevertheless, he's a great add. He kept me alive against some serious heat from a Rakdos, the Showstopper deck running Master of Cruelties.
Living Death is still my favourite card more or less ever.
Apart from that I find the Signets really useful in my build.
Competitive
GUWB Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk GUWB - RGBW Tana/Tymna Blood Pod - URGAnimar, Soul of ElementsURG - UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU
Tuned
UBG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (Write Up) UBG-BG The Gitrog Monster BG-UG Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca UG - UBG Muldrota, the Gravetide UBG - UBW Varina, Lich Queen UBW - RB Xantcha, Sleeper Agent RB - UB Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow UB - GWURafiq of the Many GWU - WUB Oloro, Ageless Lich WUB - GUBRKydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher The Fierce GUBR - BG Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB - WB Athreos, God of Passage WB - UBThe Scarab God UB - UBRMarchesa, the Affinity RoseUBR - UBGTasigur, the Golden FangUBG - GSelvala, Heart of the WildsG - BRGrusilda, Monster MasherBR - BChainer, Dementia MasterB - WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG - URMizzix's Thousand Year StormUR - RGOmnath, Locust of RageRG - GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU - WUBrago, King EternalWU
Legecy Decks
W Death and Taxes W-C Eldrazi Stompy C-R Mono Red Prison R-U MerfolkU
Anyway, I have been testing Approach like we discussed: on the plus side, if you can cast it while Varina is out then you're more or less guaranteed to redraw it by the next turn, making it ridiculously easy to win off t. On the minus side, the card is really telephoned: your opponents will KNOW that you're planning to cast it next turn, and they'll keep a counter open for it. This means that you need to pack counters of your own in order to protect Approach... Which is both very mana intensive and problematic in terms of overall deck balance, as it forces you to lean more on the control-heavy, counter-reliant side, which is not what Varina should be doing. So yeah, all in all Approach was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Have you had any luck with it?
Yeah, fetches aren’t really in my budget. I’ll probably pick up the other two shocks now that they’ve been reprinted, but I think generally the lands have just been screwy draws, and it’s as much a draw thing as it is colour fixing. One thing I really want for the build is Corpse Harvester, which will get me either swamp shock as well as Fetid Pools. Otherwise I guess I could go cheap fetches with Evolving Wilds and such. I’m just not keen to spend money on Fetches when I don’t run anything here to get more than one use from them. It is a good suggestion, though, thanks for the input!
Oh no, now it looks like I talk to myself, haha!
Glad to hear Approach is working out on for you - I’ve been thinking about how easy it is to hit that second cast in the last few days. I came up with this janky combo of Venser, Shaper Savant and Approach. It’d need tons of mana or Dream Halls/Omniscience but it’s doable. I haven’t tried running Approach here to be honest. There’s just not enough top deck manipulation to make it worth it. Also - Scroll Rack would be super nice to get a second casting of Approach more quickly. Not sure if I remember seeing it in your build or not, might be worth a shot!
I understand that, they are getting on the pricey side.
Corpse Harvester is a nice stand in and can get Zombies too. I haven't actually played him yet.
I play fetches in all my decks because I own them, the deck thinning is mostly mute in EDH but I like insuring I have access to the colors I need.
Competitive
GUWB Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk GUWB - RGBW Tana/Tymna Blood Pod - URGAnimar, Soul of ElementsURG - UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU
Tuned
UBG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (Write Up) UBG-BG The Gitrog Monster BG-UG Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca UG - UBG Muldrota, the Gravetide UBG - UBW Varina, Lich Queen UBW - RB Xantcha, Sleeper Agent RB - UB Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow UB - GWURafiq of the Many GWU - WUB Oloro, Ageless Lich WUB - GUBRKydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher The Fierce GUBR - BG Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB - WB Athreos, God of Passage WB - UBThe Scarab God UB - UBRMarchesa, the Affinity RoseUBR - UBGTasigur, the Golden FangUBG - GSelvala, Heart of the WildsG - BRGrusilda, Monster MasherBR - BChainer, Dementia MasterB - WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG - URMizzix's Thousand Year StormUR - RGOmnath, Locust of RageRG - GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU - WUBrago, King EternalWU
Legecy Decks
W Death and Taxes W-C Eldrazi Stompy C-R Mono Red Prison R-U MerfolkU
I don’t think Corpse Harvester is going to single handedly end any mana base problems but it will help to some degree. I think adding some early draw options will help (Rhystic Study really needs a reprint), and I guess if I get desperate I can add things like Darksteel Ingot and such. I do think it’s predominantly just been a couple of games with terrible draw though; I had one game recently (not with this deck) where I mulled down to 4 before I saw a land. The price of playing mostly online is dealing with a shaky RNG.
I think the signets would be a good fit if you can find room. While not perfect they are good mana fixing.
Competitive
GUWB Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk GUWB - RGBW Tana/Tymna Blood Pod - URGAnimar, Soul of ElementsURG - UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU
Tuned
UBG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (Write Up) UBG-BG The Gitrog Monster BG-UG Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca UG - UBG Muldrota, the Gravetide UBG - UBW Varina, Lich Queen UBW - RB Xantcha, Sleeper Agent RB - UB Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow UB - GWURafiq of the Many GWU - WUB Oloro, Ageless Lich WUB - GUBRKydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher The Fierce GUBR - BG Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB - WB Athreos, God of Passage WB - UBThe Scarab God UB - UBRMarchesa, the Affinity RoseUBR - UBGTasigur, the Golden FangUBG - GSelvala, Heart of the WildsG - BRGrusilda, Monster MasherBR - BChainer, Dementia MasterB - WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG - URMizzix's Thousand Year StormUR - RGOmnath, Locust of RageRG - GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU - WUBrago, King EternalWU
Legecy Decks
W Death and Taxes W-C Eldrazi Stompy C-R Mono Red Prison R-U MerfolkU
My likely plan at this point is to grab up Irrigated Farmland, Choked Estuary and Port Town, and Hallowed Fountain and Godless Shrine a few weeks after Allegiance drops - hopefully the reprint will drop the prices just a touch. There's a few lands that could be replaced - Reliquary Tower, the ravnica bounce lands, maybe Crypt of Agadeem.
Competitive
GUWB Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk GUWB - RGBW Tana/Tymna Blood Pod - URGAnimar, Soul of ElementsURG - UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU
Tuned
UBG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (Write Up) UBG-BG The Gitrog Monster BG-UG Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca UG - UBG Muldrota, the Gravetide UBG - UBW Varina, Lich Queen UBW - RB Xantcha, Sleeper Agent RB - UB Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow UB - GWURafiq of the Many GWU - WUB Oloro, Ageless Lich WUB - GUBRKydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher The Fierce GUBR - BG Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB - WB Athreos, God of Passage WB - UBThe Scarab God UB - UBRMarchesa, the Affinity RoseUBR - UBGTasigur, the Golden FangUBG - GSelvala, Heart of the WildsG - BRGrusilda, Monster MasherBR - BChainer, Dementia MasterB - WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG - URMizzix's Thousand Year StormUR - RGOmnath, Locust of RageRG - GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU - WUBrago, King EternalWU
Legecy Decks
W Death and Taxes W-C Eldrazi Stompy C-R Mono Red Prison R-U MerfolkU
In
Port Town
Choked Estuary
Liliana, Untouched by Death
Out
Azorius Chancery
Dimir Aqueduct
Buried Alive
Obviously mana fixing mostly, still waiting on shocks. They're still a bit much at present, and I needed to share the love around my decks this time. Liliana should be a good add. All abilities are relevant, she has a pseudo Buried Alive for her first ability anyway, some conditional removal, andher ultimate is very usable and low costed. It gives me another reanimation option, and obviously it'll be nice to reset her with Aminatou, the Fateshifter. Should be fun.
1) Archfiend of Ifnir You said that you know it's a great card in the right deck (repeatable, asymmetric board wipe) but thought you'd need more cycling to support it. But it also triggers off of discard, and Varina lets you repeatably discard every single turn that she's out and have zombies attacking. That wipes away all opponents' mana dorks, utility creatures, even commanders if you swing w/ like 1-4 zombies. So I don't think you'd need any more cycling at all. So I guess my question is, are you shying away from it because you don't like things relying on having Varina in play? Archfiend does cost more than Citywide Bust or Supreme Verdict. Just curious. It looks like a house of a card to me.
2) Alhammarret's Archive You mentioned it does nothing w/o other card draw, and you'd rather play Rhystic Study. I'm all for Rhystic Study, but again, you have repeatable card draw in the command zone. Even if this particular list doesn't rely on its general, she's always there to turn on Alhammarret's Archive. Say you swing with 3 zombies. Instead of just sculpting hand, now you draw 6 discard 3. That's real, repeatable card draw. Similar to Archfiend, I could see you shying away from it because of the mana cost. But just for some context, my LGS almost exclusively plays cEDH and all of our lists have an average cmc of 1.2 to 2.3. Often the most expensive cards are paradox engine (sure there's Jin-Gitaxias / Razaketh types stuff but that gets cheated into play). Personally, even at 5cmc, I'd still run Alhammarret's Archive in my meta for its absurd power.
Maybe I'm just envisioning a different deck that makes more use of Varina than your list. But these cards don't seem to require extra build around to give absurd advantage. I suppose the difference is that I'm building a more controlling list which could defend Archfiend & Archive, and requires my to draw cards for answer density, & sculpt hand for a combo finish. Another thing that could be biasing me is the life gain from Archive can fuel Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, and Aetherflux Reservoir.
Just curious on your thoughts!
drippyCat, it sounds like you have a semi-cEDH list of Varina floating around. I'd love to see it, since I agree that Varina's filtering is the real deal.
I also really like her in conjunction with Lich's Mastery, which I'm still trying to find a viable strategy with. Maybe some sort of Control deck with Mastery and Extra Turns to just accrue cards and control the game until I can combo off somehow? Dunno. I know you're not a fan of combos, toc, but Varina has sparked by fancy for a combo build for sure.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Welcome and thanks for the first comment here, I'm truly honored. And absolutely happy to discuss these potential additions.
Archfiend of Ifnir is absolutely devastating - it ends games in my Dralnu build. On first glance I had thought there was probably not enough loot and discard here to support it. On a second glance I think it could work - I'm always a little hesitant to add something simply based on an ability my commander has, but there's other synergy here too - Cryptbreaker, Forgotten Creation, Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, Necromancer's Stockpile, Ancient Excavation, Forbid, Geier Reach Sanitarium. I'd probably feel happier having a Windfall here too before adding it, but it's a definite possibility, and probably something I've overlooked unnecessarily.
Alhamarret's Archive you're going to have to work harder with to convince me. No doubt it's strong, but at that time in the curve I'm flush anyway, so it kind of seems a little winmore, you know? Early draw is what I want, and it's why I'd still go for Rhystic Study over Archive. It's a great card, and ideally if I had a spare copy it'd probably make its way in here. Both Study and Archive are expensive, and I won't lie - that is part of why it's not in here, but almost 100% of what this deck needs to be more reliably what I want it to be is early draw/filtering/land drop/colour fixing.
It does sound a little like we're building different decks - I tend to shy away from cEDH and combo where I can (I'm aware there's some loops in the deck, and they're totally incidental, based purely on cards I want to run regardless) - I prefer to go for sub-optimal, 'game hard' decks that game strongly but don't quite go infinite or combo off. Nonetheless, these suggestions are worth consideration so I do appreciate the critique.
This could pull some weight, for sure! I think it's definitely a card for a control build though. You'd want maximum protection to reduce that downside, so I'd be seeing Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement, Fog Bank variants and a ton more control to make sure everything stays intact while you grab what you need to win. Totally doable though - there's plenty of ways in these colours to make life gain a thing aside from Varina anyway - soul sisters, aristocrats, Ajani's Welcome, Tendrils of Agony, sac for life effects, and I guess your win con would probably be fine as Aetherflux Reservoir, Tendrils or Torment/Exsanguinate. It might even be a decent place for Null Profusion, to go off all in one turn.
As an aside, Aetherflux Reservoir is a card I personally hate. It's far too easy to abuse and far too difficult to stop going off for me to take it seriously outside of cEDH builds, so I KOS it wherever I see it. It's undoubtedly very very good, it's just a bit too gross for anything outside of a competitive build, and I'm always a little disappointed when I see it as a win con. That's just me though, it's not my thing.
I can see how Alhammarret's Archive would be win more if it doesn't win (lower tutor density / not going to combo). Haha I'm remembering how context-dependent everything is in EDH.
Hahaha I don't have a list yet, just research, some pools of cards to brew from, various game plan drafts. I just started brewing her a couple days ago. The ironic thing is, I set out to brew a deck that's specifically FOR FUN and doesn't go for infinite combos. A deck that I can play outside of our tournaments with players newer to the format, or those that are looking to play at a different power than what competes in our events. Right now I don't have anything outside of that top tier power level and I'm finding it really challenging and interesting to evaluate cards differently for this Varina project! I could brew you up my idea of cEDH Varina but it's what I'm trying to avoid :b . It'd be strong, but most likely sub-par compared with other cEDH decks.
Oh I'm definitely playtesting Archfiend (at this point instead of Decree of Pain, which is just too expensive). I expect it'll be decent. I likeRuthless Sniper for like a Scorpion God build, but it wouldn't do enough to count here. Archifend is fairly well costed anyway - it comes down at the same time as Noxious Ghoul.
The Archive I would totally still consider - I run Mind's Eye after all. It could be a beautiful thing. The lifegain would make Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim more relevant too. Mostly it's just not the first draw option I'd go for (I'm picking up Midnight Reaper from my LGS soon - it'll go in for Zombie Trailblazer), and I'd definitely want to wait for a reprint to lower the price before I pick it up.
Is this thread just for toctheyounger77's list?
Or can it be used to discuss any/all Varina esper lists?