I started writing a bunch but deleted it. I just realized that I don't actually know:
Is this thread just for toctheyounger77's list?
Or can it be used to discuss any/all Varina esper lists?
The convention as I understand it is that decklist threads in this subforum or more for the former (that user's list and approach to playing the commander), but a lot of general discussion of cards for that commander happen in these threads anyway. Often it brings some new ideas to the user or helps them refine where they draw the line on certain things.
I started writing a bunch but deleted it. I just realized that I don't actually know:
Is this thread just for toctheyounger77's list?
Or can it be used to discuss any/all Varina esper lists?
The convention as I understand it is that decklist threads in this subforum or more for the former (that user's list and approach to playing the commander), but a lot of general discussion of cards for that commander happen in these threads anyway. Often it brings some new ideas to the user or helps them refine where they draw the line on certain things.
Generally that's the convention. That being said, I haven't seen a whole lot of Varina lists about, so if this is the place where we unpack and theorycraft different approaches I'm totally cool with that. My list isn't going anywhere any time soon, and I've made it pretty clear what I'm aiming for, but I'm also absolutely happy to bounce ideas about and help others out with different angles and such
I've played a couple games with these and the first two, I've yet to draw into. I've just hit Ajani's Welcome in the last couple games, and for what it's worth it's been surprisingly good. A lot of the time playing Varina I've run into a steadily declining life total until I can establish a board presence. Between Welcome, Open the Graves and Gravecrawler I was able to keep up near 40 despite being attacked every turn cycle. For W, counting literally any creature that enters my battlefield is great value.
I wonder also if it would have decent application in a combo build with things like Aetherflux Reservoir. Cast and sac Gravecrawler ad infinitum, laser death cannon everyone into oblivion, profit.
I'm going to play my list in paper tomorrow at my shop so I've just been goldfishing a bit today, but I finally slimmed it down to 99 cards. My first draft is http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varina-zomg/ and it seems super fun! I'm just winging it right now so that's exciting.
I'm going to play my list in paper tomorrow at my shop so I've just been goldfishing a bit today, but I finally slimmed it down to 99 cards. My first draft is http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varina-zomg/ and it seems super fun! I'm just winging it right now so that's exciting.
Let us know how it went down!
I've had a look over your list and it looks fun - different direction to mine obviously, but interesting. Here's my thoughts on the inclusions:
Fan Bearer - It's cute, but is it worth it? You have Binding Mummy anyway, this is just a slower, more restrictive version of the same. Liliana's Elite Mummy Paramount Wight of Precinct Six - These guys all get big, and that's cool. But they don't have evasion, and their buffs are conditional. Coat of Arms gets stupid buffs, but again you don't have a lot of evasion here. I've never run this, but I did run Door of Destinies early on and very quickly swapped it out for Eldrazi Monument, which does enough of everything to be a really decent addition. Curtain's Call - it's just not that well costed, and you're almost certainly better off with a standard board wipe.
So most of my suggestions are kind of tribal but could help anyway: Gravecrawler - Great with any sort of death trigger or ETB trigger, great with Skullclamp. If nothing else, it gives you something to attack with 90% of the time. Relentless Dead - Similar story, but with evasion and the ability to block, as well as being great reanimation support. Austere Command - I noticed you're not running a ton of removal. This one is great for being a modal swiss army knife, there's almost nothing it can't hit. Vizkopa Guildmage - So, this guy is not so secret tech, and I've always wanted a deck that sees him shine. With Training Grounds and your bleeder package he could be disgusting. The great thing is you can stack his second ability, too.
On top of these, there's a couple of bleeder effects you could have a look at: Shepherd of Rot - This guy, a healthy life total, and Paradox Engine is game. Vengeful Dead, Diregraf Captain, Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat - More bleeders, you've probably thought through them already.
Your maybe list I can tick some off for you: Gempalm Polluter - At first glance it seems great, but it's very difficult to see use from. Graveborn Muse - Undoubtedly it's good, but if you run it make sure your life gain game is on point. Withered Wretch - this seems like a no brainer to me. It's a great card.
Let me know how this plays out, I love a good bleeder deck and this one looks fun.
The other thing I've been thinking about adding for some discard redundancy is non-zombie recursion. If I can't find Library of Leng I've had crucial non creature spells sit in my yard gathering moss with no way to grab them, so I've considered adding something like Archaeomancer or Possessed Skaab. I know Tears of Tomorrow runs Dralnu, Lich Lord for this reason. The great thing about either of these additions is Aminatou, the Fateshifter can repeat the effect for continued use, I guess you could add other things to take advantage too - Felidar Guardian maybe? I'll be interested to see if you run into this, and if so what your thoughts are on making this less of an issue.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts. I built this out of cards I had lying around and didn't buy anything for it and it showed. The play testing was really rough. I guess I underestimated the 'casual' decks at my store. When playing my full comp lists against them they're so easy to stop. But with this list I'd have a little bit going on but die on turn 6.
I think I'll have to tune it more to really focus in on control with a big bleeder finish and lower my deck's curve closer to 2. I'll make that room by dropping support for buffing up zombies. Focusing on bleeding will let me run board wipes too.
I think I'm understanding more about the social contract part of the local 'casual' players. Win on turn 5 or later, don't go infinite but you can go huge. Don't win out of absolute nowhere, they need to see it coming at least a turn in advance. Don't stop them completely from playing magic with full stax. Control shell with a finite drain 'combo' should fit that bill. Any thoughts?
Sounds like a pretty reasonable assessment to me. Most casual players are ok with OTK's, a lot of wins happen that way, but that does vary. It's a funny thing though with the comparison between cEDH and EDH; it's not necessarily a case of tuning the speed down to 100mph to 60, it's changing gear altogether, and making sure if plan A falls through you have redundancy. A lot of it comes down to gathering momentum in ways that are hard to disrupt or easy to regain, and that can be tough. It probably does mean a change in the way you approach building the deck too, I'd assume.
I like your idea of a control shell with drain. You're in the right colours and it's very much something Varina should by rights do quite well. Full stax is probably for avoiding I guess (meta dependent), but don't be afraid to put elements in if they work for you. I was going to suggest that Meekstone could do some work with Binding Mummy.
As a general playtesting experience bleeder effects have been strong here, but it's an incremental win most definitely. There'll be games you can end on the spot, but others it'll be a fight. Tombstone Stairwell has been really good for me in terms of exploiting ETB and LTB triggers, I'd recommend tracking down a copy, it can really take people out quickly. It's fun, but it's very good too. These mean you can be a little bolder with board wipes, too. Otherwise I'd just look at some of the tribal lords for the buffs you want, and some ways to make sure you keep your board presence up; given that Varina triggers on attack that's going to be important.
So, playtesting of Archfiend of Ifnir went, as predicted, remarkably well. Had an arm wrestle against Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Athreos, God of Passge that I won today. It was a savage fight though, really had to make sure my plays were on point. Archfiend landed early and kept Athreos' board down, but the life loss made things a little difficult. I eventually ended up hitting Tombstone Stairwell with both Wayward Servant and Diregraf Captain in play, making and killing 8 zombies each turn. I only just snuck in for the win, Athreos' next card prior to loss was Exsanguinate, which would've been enough to take me out.
Great test, though - Archfiend is a definite shoe in here, it wrecks face.
So, opening up a couple of options for additions to suggestions. I've pulled apart a Ghave, Guru of Spores build in the last few days, so I have some Orzhov goodies that could see spots here:
There's some really, really good stuff to add. I really like the idea of Gisa in here, and I could see Norn too, just wondering if they're a little obsolete or win-more. Altar seems a shoe in, but it's an easy combo option too. I can add it and not use it, or I can just not add it. The removal options I'm almost certain are both heading in, they seem like no-brainers. The problem is the list is pretty full at present, so making cuts will be a little tough.
The UU in Rewind has made it difficult, and given this isn't really a counter deck it's been a little out of place. The removal I'm adding is the top of what Orzhov has to offer and it should do well. The lands should be reasonable upgrades too, in terms of colour fixing a little quicker.
What are your thoughts on Stronghold Assassin and Corpse Harvester? I know Stronghold Assassin can be kind of slow but it can put in some good work. And Harvester can get you the right Zombie at the right time while also making sure you hit your land drops. Depending on how your game is going, it could also ensure you get a certain color of mana if you happen to be missing a color.
Kindred Discovery seems like it could add some decent card draw if you feel you need it. 5 mana can be tough, but it helps keep your hand full as you are trying to flood the board and it can help having some extra cards in hand for Varina's ability since hers is just a filtering effect.
What are your thoughts on Stronghold Assassin and Corpse Harvester? I know Stronghold Assassin can be kind of slow but it can put in some good work. And Harvester can get you the right Zombie at the right time while also making sure you hit your land drops. Depending on how your game is going, it could also ensure you get a certain color of mana if you happen to be missing a color.
Kindred Discovery seems like it could add some decent card draw if you feel you need it. 5 mana can be tough, but it helps keep your hand full as you are trying to flood the board and it can help having some extra cards in hand for Varina's ability since hers is just a filtering effect.
I had thought of assassin, but something has stopped me from adding it. I think it’s the combination of limited removal and having to tap down to use it has always put me off a bit.
Corpse Harvester I definitely want a copy of. Being able to fix colours, land drops and fetch a key piece is really valuable. I’ve been keeping eyes out for it, but because it hasn’t seen reprint outside of planechase it’s relatively hard to track down.
Kindred Discovery is crazy, but it sort of comes down at the wrong time. What I’ve found is that early draw really is crucial to success with Varina. Mid to late game once you can sculpt your hand it doesn’t matter so much, you can just toss what you don’t need or save it for reanimation later. I do need a couple more draw options in here but this one has always seemed a little pricey to me.
Wouldn't the instant speed plus exile on Utter End be more important than potentially hitting a land with Vindicate? Might be a meta call.
The creatures look pretty solid overall. The Archfiend of Ifnir seems like a brutal game ender if you get to develop unimpeded for a while. Is Festering Mummy impactful enough to merit a slot? I guess you're consciously trying to curve out so you get to loot 3 on turn 4. Given the Urborg, might be worth jamming Zombie Master for evasion? Lord of the Undead for recursion?
I guess no tutors due to budget/meta constraints?
Silence the Believers seems a bit suboptimal. I'd probably just ram in Path to Exile, but you could consider Curse of the Swine in its place if multi-targeting is an important component. True, you lose the instant speed, but you gain a lot of mana efficiency.
I always found fastlands to be clunkers in EDH, once Isolated Chapel rotates out of standard you could consider picking one up to replace it.
I'd argue Kindred Discovery would be better here than Mind's Eye.
I agree, it's more or less a matter of cost - card shot up to like $30, and the only copy I have is tied up in my Ur-Dragon build. Perhaps it would do more here.
Wouldn't the instant speed plus exile on Utter End be more important than potentially hitting a land with Vindicate? Might be a meta call.
I guess it was just looking at dropping the cost on my removal, although there's no reason I can't run both. I'd consider both superior to Silence the Believers and both are better costed.
The creatures look pretty solid overall. The Archfiend of Ifnir seems like a brutal game ender if you get to develop unimpeded for a while. Is Festering Mummy impactful enough to merit a slot? I guess you're consciously trying to curve out so you get to loot 3 on turn 4. Given the Urborg, might be worth jamming Zombie Master for evasion? Lord of the Undead for recursion?
Archfiend is rough. I need to really lean into him a little more, but he's absolutely nasty. Guy does not get enough credit in this format. Festering Mummy you hit bang on, it's there to curve out and loot early. I guess he could be Diregraf Ghoul or Dread Wanderer, maybe Stitcher's Supplier or Putrid Imp. Actually thinking on it, Imp plays nicely with Archfiend.
I guess no tutors due to budget/meta constraints?
It's sort of a personal preference and a budget constraint. I'd prefer to spend my money on cards that fit well rather than fetch the cards that fit well. Sidisi, Undead Vizier I'd run here, and may well look at dropping it in here from my Thraximundar build.
Silence the Believers seems a bit suboptimal. I'd probably just ram in Path to Exile, but you could consider Curse of the Swine in its place if multi-targeting is an important component. True, you lose the instant speed, but you gain a lot of mana efficiency.
I do really like Curse. Path to Exile I don't have even a single copy of. Being a multi-format staple makes it brutally expensive, too, so I probably can't manage it unless we see reprint sometime soon. Curse would do nicely here, and it's remarkably more efficient than Silence, it's a strong suggestion.
I always found fastlands to be clunkers in EDH, once Isolated Chapel rotates out of standard you could consider picking one up to replace it.
I haven't drawn it to check it out yet, but I get where you're going with that. I need to make a couple of changes to the landbase anyway, and would love to round out the shocks bare minimum. They're just costly at present, and my LGS doesn't have copies anyway. I think in making the deck thus far I've leaned heavily into the Urborg/Coffers inclusion, so the colours are fairly skewed towards B, which has been a mistake. I've made some slight amendments over the weekend to hopefully adjust a little for this.
Thanks for the critique, this is all pretty helpful stuff!
So, aside from this deck being the focus of Random Deck Discussion over the last 3 day cycle, I'd planned to make a few adjustments anyway. These were made prior to receiving said feedback, so there may well be more changes afoot. For now, though:
Ranks straight up was way too slow and just sucked mostly. Gisa should be able to swell the ranks considerably, she's a limited sac outlet, she should do remarkably in replacement. Obviously the rest of what's here was to rebalance the lands run here. I was leaning heavily into the Coffers theme, without any particular way to fix colour, so it needed adjustment.
There have been some great suggestions come through, in terms of sensible cuts and reasonable to decent adds, so there could well be further changes upcoming.
Ranks straight up was way too slow and just sucked mostly. Gisa should be able to swell the ranks considerably, she's a limited sac outlet, she should do remarkably in replacement. Obviously the rest of what's here was to rebalance the lands run here. I was leaning heavily into the Coffers theme, without any particular way to fix colour, so it needed adjustment.
There have been some great suggestions come through, in terms of sensible cuts and reasonable to decent adds, so there could well be further changes upcoming.
Typically, Cabal Coffers won't pull the same weight in anything beyond a B deck without a manabase that is on point. You won't get a single return out of it prior to T4, absent an opening hand with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and that is only if every single land you drop has the Swamp subtype. Given that you'd at least like to get some W and U access in those first turns as well, I'm of the opinion that you'd need to be running more dual lands with the Swamp subtype than you presently are to come close to the benefit a B deck will get from it. Without them, I simply don't think Coffers punches enough above it's own weight to warrant a spot in your manabase.
If you really need the ramp, I'd free up the land slot for something else and grab a Smothering Tithe from somewhere. It's going to grab just as much attention as Cabal Coffers from your opponents anyway. Tithe has exploded in value in the last two weeks and might be hard to come by, but even if it's outside of your budget, I'd still just drop the Coffers entirely. I think if you look at the statistic behind your manabase, you will find that in the majority of scenarios, Coffers is just going to be a tremendously slow card.
14 of your 37 lands (excluding Cabal Coffers) will count towards a Swamp trigger. That is a much smaller average than the 22 to 26 lands that will normally count in a B deck. The only way Coffers consistently seems to work in your favor is if you can combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but that has some problems. It requires you to A). draw/tutor it, B). count on your opponent playing it if you cannot, and C). avoid land removal. B decks have the same latter problem, but those decks know the removal is coming at their Coffers because the Tomb is redundant with the majority of their lands. A good opponent is going to recognize that because you are playing a three-color deck with a less consistent manabase (high number of basics), the Tomb is the more valuable target.
Ranks straight up was way too slow and just sucked mostly. Gisa should be able to swell the ranks considerably, she's a limited sac outlet, she should do remarkably in replacement. Obviously the rest of what's here was to rebalance the lands run here. I was leaning heavily into the Coffers theme, without any particular way to fix colour, so it needed adjustment.
There have been some great suggestions come through, in terms of sensible cuts and reasonable to decent adds, so there could well be further changes upcoming.
Typically, Cabal Coffers won't pull the same weight in anything beyond a B deck without a manabase that is on point. You won't get a single return out of it prior to T4, absent an opening hand with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and that is only if every single land you drop has the Swamp subtype. Given that you'd at least like to get some W and U access in those first turns as well, I'm of the opinion that you'd need to be running more dual lands with the Swamp subtype than you presently are to come close to the benefit a B deck will get from it. Without them, I simply don't think Coffers punches enough above it's own weight to warrant a spot in your manabase.
If you really need the ramp, I'd free up the land slot for something else and grab a Smothering Tithe from somewhere. It's going to grab just as much attention as Cabal Coffers from your opponents anyway. Tithe has exploded in value in the last two weeks and might be hard to come by, but even if it's outside of your budget, I'd still just drop the Coffers entirely. I think if you look at the statistic behind your manabase, you will find that in the majority of scenarios, Coffers is just going to be a tremendously slow card.
14 of your 37 lands (excluding Cabal Coffers) will count towards a Swamp trigger. That is a much smaller average than the 22 to 26 lands that will normally count in a B deck. The only way Coffers consistently seems to work in your favor is if you can combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but that has some problems. It requires you to A). draw/tutor it, B). count on your opponent playing it if you cannot, and C). avoid land removal. B decks have the same latter problem, but those decks know the removal is coming at their Coffers because the Tomb is redundant with the majority of their lands. A good opponent is going to recognize that because you are playing a three-color deck with a less consistent manabase (high number of basics), the Tomb is the more valuable target.
Generally, I don’t disagree. The tomb and coffers have more or less proven to be inconsistent and not something the deck needs (at least, short of stacking it with duals, which is something I’ll never afford). I’ve been thinking of swapping them out anyway in favour of more utility and colour variance. I have a few options for colour fixing here and there, and I’ve been tossing up whether it’s worth picking up a Phyrexian Tower now that’s it’s dropped in price some.
Tithe is something I’ve also considered for the deck. It’s devastatingly good, and it’s a nice convenient fixer for colours. Currently I have it in my Bruna build, although being honest it’s probably surplus to requirement there as the deck usually has more land in play than anything it faces down (mono white that ramps well, go figure). I could definitely see sticking it in here. If it’s that popular in standard I won’t pick up another copy, but swapping it out could be very beneficial here.
Generally, I don’t disagree. The tomb and coffers have more or less proven to be inconsistent and not something the deck needs (at least, short of stacking it with duals, which is something I’ll never afford). I’ve been thinking of swapping them out anyway in favour of more utility and colour variance. I have a few options for colour fixing here and there, and I’ve been tossing up whether it’s worth picking up a Phyrexian Tower now that’s it’s dropped in price some.
Tithe is something I’ve also considered for the deck. It’s devastatingly good, and it’s a nice convenient fixer for colours. Currently I have it in my Bruna build, although being honest it’s probably surplus to requirement there as the deck usually has more land in play than anything it faces down (mono white that ramps well, go figure). I could definitely see sticking it in here. If it’s that popular in standard I won’t pick up another copy, but swapping it out could be very beneficial here.
Thanks for the suggestions:)
After taking a cursory look at your manabase, I 'd start with "tricolored" lands for your deck. That obviously includes Arcane Sanctum, Path of Ancestry, and, if possible (I know you are on a budget), Cavern of Souls. Anything that can tap for all three of your colors with little manipulation on your part, but also isn't so restrictive that you cannot play the majority of your spells (for example Unclaimed Territory). If you are already including pain lands in any capacity, I'd swap them out forCity of Brass and Mana Confluence. They will let you more consistently hit your colors over Caves of Koilos, Underground River, or Adarkar Wastes. There is already a fair amount of life gain in Varina Tribal and I see no reason to run a land that taps for only two of your colors over lands that will tap for all three.
Don't be afraid of the ones that come into play tapped. I love the "fast" variants of lands, including the Shocks, Duals, Checks, etc. I run all of them in my own Varina, but they aren't really that necessary. Zombies are, by their nature, slow because they tend to cost a lot of mana. The majority of your curve is going to start at 3CC because of the sheer number of Lords available to the tribe. There isn't going to be a massive difference between a Turn 1 Watery Grave or Underground Sea over Path of Ancestry or Arcane Sanctum.
Generally, I don’t disagree. The tomb and coffers have more or less proven to be inconsistent and not something the deck needs (at least, short of stacking it with duals, which is something I’ll never afford). I’ve been thinking of swapping them out anyway in favour of more utility and colour variance. I have a few options for colour fixing here and there, and I’ve been tossing up whether it’s worth picking up a Phyrexian Tower now that’s it’s dropped in price some.
Tithe is something I’ve also considered for the deck. It’s devastatingly good, and it’s a nice convenient fixer for colours. Currently I have it in my Bruna build, although being honest it’s probably surplus to requirement there as the deck usually has more land in play than anything it faces down (mono white that ramps well, go figure). I could definitely see sticking it in here. If it’s that popular in standard I won’t pick up another copy, but swapping it out could be very beneficial here.
Thanks for the suggestions:)
After taking a cursory look at your manabase, I 'd start with "tricolored" lands for your deck. That obviously includes Arcane Sanctum, Path of Ancestry, and, if possible (I know you are on a budget), Cavern of Souls. Anything that can tap for all three of your colors with little manipulation on your part, but also isn't so restrictive that you cannot play the majority of your spells (for example Unclaimed Territory). If you are already including pain lands in any capacity, I'd swap them out forCity of Brass and Mana Confluence. They will let you more consistently hit your colors over Caves of Koilos, Underground River, or Adarkar Wastes. There is already a fair amount of life gain in Varina Tribal and I see no reason to run a land that taps for only two of your colors over lands that will tap for all three.
Don't be afraid of the ones that come into play tapped. I love the "fast" variants of lands, including the Shocks, Duals, Checks, etc. I run all of them in my own Varina, but they aren't really that necessary. Zombies are, by their nature, slow because they tend to cost a lot of mana. The majority of your curve is going to start at 3CC because of the sheer number of Lords available to the tribe. There isn't going to be a massive difference between a Turn 1 Watery Grave or Underground Sea over Path of Ancestry or Arcane Sanctum.
Yeah, Cavern is waaay out of what I can afford. I see the point in tricolours, so things like Sanctum and Path of Ancestry are things I’m pretty keen on anyway. Sanctum I have and can easily slot in. I’ve looked at Unclaimed Territory too for an option that doesn’t ETB tapped.
Confluence and Brass are good suggestions, I’ll keep an eye out for those, although at close look my LGS doesn’t have them at present.
After endless brewing and trying to make Nicol Bolas work in EDH, I grew frustrated and searched other options. I'm glad I did or I wouldn't have found Varina, she is such a dope commander!
After seeing the WAR spoilers I knew I wanted to make some form of Zombie Tribal and I think my first ever paper cards will be bought building a Varina EDH deck, using zombie tokens. I especially like Varina because she is midrange, and after a couple of months of playing Arena, I have realized that midrange is my favorite decktype.
What do you guys think about a zombie token tribal that also runs Gleaming Overseer, Eternal Skylord, Dreadhorde Invasion, Vizier of the Scorpion, and Liliana, Dreadhorde General? I like those three creatures because not only do they create a zombie (army) token as an ETB, they also buff all zombie tokens we control. With all three on the board, all of our zombie tokens have hexproof, menace, flying, and deathtouch; quite potent.
My only problem is trying to fit all the good cards in the 99...
Glad to see Varina getting some more attention! She was the only commander I was sold on building from C18, and I’ve had a blast playing her since.
Much the same here, midrange is my jam, apparently. I’ve been playing this since before I was aware of the term. I like it for being a reasonably versatile strategic archetype while also providing a challenge in that there’s no set path to victory. That’s where the pilot comes in.
I think there’s something there with a dedicated swarm deck under Varina. The big challenge you’ll have is keeping your army around and getting critical mass as early as possible. Part of why I haven’t gone all in on that is that it can be a little slow, and tokens can be hard to replace if/when they get removed. It’s why I’ve included all of the zombie death triggers available, at least it’ll hurt to remove them. That being said, the new token lords do look cool - I think with a balance of tradition buff lords and these guys, there’s something there. It’d probably play more like an aggro midrange build, but it’s totally doable. Feel free to discuss inclusions here if you’d like to - I’m happy to lend a hand coming up with a reasonable list.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General I’m less excited about for this build than others seem to be. Most of that is her CMC. She’d be literally right at the top of the curve for the deck, and I’m not certain she’ll have the impact she’d need to. If I grab a copy, I really like her for my Glissa build. Here’s what I’m tossing up for my build from WAR:
Soul Diviner - I run a few walkers, he draws from Mike’s ability, and he helps with cumulative upkeeps.
God-Eternal Oketra - She’s well costed, strong in combat, and gives straight up bonkers value in her tokens. She’s an auto-include.
Dreadhorde Invasion - Early board presence is great. The lifelink clause might not ever turn on, but being low on the curve makes it a reasonable include.
Lazotep Reaver - A 2-drop that comes with an extra body is decent. Sac fodder for the most part but still worth consideration.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - He’s got a decent array of abilities - the lifelink is handy and so is the reanimation.
Bolas’s Citadel - this card is obviously nuts. It’ll likely end up being a straight up combo staple, but it could do decent things here. Not 100% sure about it, but worth consideration.
Despark - This is just great value removal. Instant speed, well costed, permanent removal for the biggest threat on board. As a nice flavour note, it can get rid of literally every iteration of Bolas that exists.
Glad to see Varina getting some more attention! She was the only commander I was sold on building from C18, and I’ve had a blast playing her since.
Much the same here, midrange is my jam, apparently. I’ve been playing this since before I was aware of the term. I like it for being a reasonably versatile strategic archetype while also providing a challenge in that there’s no set path to victory. That’s where the pilot comes in.
I think there’s something there with a dedicated swarm deck under Varina. The big challenge you’ll have is keeping your army around and getting critical mass as early as possible. Part of why I haven’t gone all in on that is that it can be a little slow, and tokens can be hard to replace if/when they get removed. It’s why I’ve included all of the zombie death triggers available, at least it’ll hurt to remove them. That being said, the new token lords do look cool - I think with a balance of tradition buff lords and these guys, there’s something there. It’d probably play more like an aggro midrange build, but it’s totally doable. Feel free to discuss inclusions here if you’d like to - I’m happy to lend a hand coming up with a reasonable list.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General I’m less excited about for this build than others seem to be. Most of that is her CMC. She’d be literally right at the top of the curve for the deck, and I’m not certain she’ll have the impact she’d need to. If I grab a copy, I really like her for my Glissa build. Here’s what I’m tossing up for my build from WAR:
Soul Diviner - I run a few walkers, he draws from Mike’s ability, and he helps with cumulative upkeeps.
God-Eternal Oketra - She’s well costed, strong in combat, and gives straight up bonkers value in her tokens. She’s an auto-include.
Dreadhorde Invasion - Early board presence is great. The lifelink clause might not ever turn on, but being low on the curve makes it a reasonable include.
Lazotep Reaver - A 2-drop that comes with an extra body is decent. Sac fodder for the most part but still worth consideration.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - He’s got a decent array of abilities - the lifelink is handy and so is the reanimation.
Bolas’s Citadel - this card is obviously nuts. It’ll likely end up being a straight up combo staple, but it could do decent things here. Not 100% sure about it, but worth consideration.
Despark - This is just great value removal. Instant speed, well costed, permanent removal for the biggest threat on board. As a nice flavour note, it can get rid of literally every iteration of Bolas that exists.
Thanks for the insight, I also have considered those cards although I didn't even think about Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord. His reanimation ability does fit well with the theme of the deck, maybe even adding Entomb will ensure we get the recursion we want.
Thanks for the insight, I also have considered those cards although I didn't even think about Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord. His reanimation ability does fit well with the theme of the deck, maybe even adding Entomb will ensure we get the recursion we want.
Looks an interesting list. Have you played it through yet? I have questions about a few inclusions:
How has Crypt of Agadeem worked out for you? It seems a bit slow and unreliable unless you can massively dump critters into your yard. I've thought about adding it, but haven't taken the leap.
Phyrexian Tower - decent add? I've thought about picking one up, not sure if it does enough here except as an early semi-ramp.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born is a flex spot in my build. I've thought about taking him out, as he's really quite slow. To be fair the only thing keeping him in the build is that I have a foil copy, and it's purdy
Endless Ranks of the Dead looks a whole lot better on paper than it plays in reality. It's quite slow, and any player worth their salt will let you play it and remove it before it does a thing. Even once you do start getting tokens from it, you're looking at at least 2 turns before you can swing with your Ranks-created zombies. I'd recommend it as a cut, and if you're after critical mass of zombies, get yourself some Noosegraf Mob - people aren't going to stop playing spells, which means he immediately gives you value, and if you want to swing with the zombies he creates, you can do so by your next turn. Great reanimation target too.
There's a few cards I'd consider cutting for just not fitting all that well:
Call to the Netherworld - you don't have a lot of looting going on here, aside from Varina's trigger and a couple of others. How likely do you think it is you'll make use of this? And if you do, is it worth a slot or would you prefer something that returns direct to play?
Mausoleum Secrets - I see what this card is trying to do, but I think it requires you to 'go all in' on either looting, milling or a solid sacrifice strategy. Any of these are viable, I'd suggest dedicating to one more than the others; a deck can only serve so many masters.
Countersquall - It's a decent card, any reason for its inclusion? Seems a little out of place is all
I hope I didn't put you off a token build by the way. I totally think it's viable, I just think you'd need to really hit the ramp as hard as Esper can manage and play some fairly specific stuff. Here's what I'd include in some variation for token specific strategies:
I definitely think it could be a strong strategy, if that's still something you're interested in. It just looks a little different to what I currently run - and that's the beauty of this commander, there's a ton of variation in ways to build her.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Generally that's the convention. That being said, I haven't seen a whole lot of Varina lists about, so if this is the place where we unpack and theorycraft different approaches I'm totally cool with that. My list isn't going anywhere any time soon, and I've made it pretty clear what I'm aiming for, but I'm also absolutely happy to bounce ideas about and help others out with different angles and such
Archfiend of Ifnir
Midnight Reaper
Ajani's Welcome
I've played a couple games with these and the first two, I've yet to draw into. I've just hit Ajani's Welcome in the last couple games, and for what it's worth it's been surprisingly good. A lot of the time playing Varina I've run into a steadily declining life total until I can establish a board presence. Between Welcome, Open the Graves and Gravecrawler I was able to keep up near 40 despite being attacked every turn cycle. For W, counting literally any creature that enters my battlefield is great value.
I wonder also if it would have decent application in a combo build with things like Aetherflux Reservoir. Cast and sac Gravecrawler ad infinitum, laser death cannon everyone into oblivion, profit.
Let us know how it went down!
I've had a look over your list and it looks fun - different direction to mine obviously, but interesting. Here's my thoughts on the inclusions:
Fan Bearer - It's cute, but is it worth it? You have Binding Mummy anyway, this is just a slower, more restrictive version of the same.
Liliana's Elite
Mummy Paramount
Wight of Precinct Six - These guys all get big, and that's cool. But they don't have evasion, and their buffs are conditional.
Coat of Arms gets stupid buffs, but again you don't have a lot of evasion here. I've never run this, but I did run Door of Destinies early on and very quickly swapped it out for Eldrazi Monument, which does enough of everything to be a really decent addition.
Curtain's Call - it's just not that well costed, and you're almost certainly better off with a standard board wipe.
So most of my suggestions are kind of tribal but could help anyway:
Gravecrawler - Great with any sort of death trigger or ETB trigger, great with Skullclamp. If nothing else, it gives you something to attack with 90% of the time.
Relentless Dead - Similar story, but with evasion and the ability to block, as well as being great reanimation support.
Austere Command - I noticed you're not running a ton of removal. This one is great for being a modal swiss army knife, there's almost nothing it can't hit.
Vizkopa Guildmage - So, this guy is not so secret tech, and I've always wanted a deck that sees him shine. With Training Grounds and your bleeder package he could be disgusting. The great thing is you can stack his second ability, too.
On top of these, there's a couple of bleeder effects you could have a look at:
Shepherd of Rot - This guy, a healthy life total, and Paradox Engine is game.
Vengeful Dead, Diregraf Captain, Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat - More bleeders, you've probably thought through them already.
Your maybe list I can tick some off for you:
Gempalm Polluter - At first glance it seems great, but it's very difficult to see use from.
Graveborn Muse - Undoubtedly it's good, but if you run it make sure your life gain game is on point.
Withered Wretch - this seems like a no brainer to me. It's a great card.
Let me know how this plays out, I love a good bleeder deck and this one looks fun.
The other thing I've been thinking about adding for some discard redundancy is non-zombie recursion. If I can't find Library of Leng I've had crucial non creature spells sit in my yard gathering moss with no way to grab them, so I've considered adding something like Archaeomancer or Possessed Skaab. I know Tears of Tomorrow runs Dralnu, Lich Lord for this reason. The great thing about either of these additions is Aminatou, the Fateshifter can repeat the effect for continued use, I guess you could add other things to take advantage too - Felidar Guardian maybe? I'll be interested to see if you run into this, and if so what your thoughts are on making this less of an issue.
I think I'll have to tune it more to really focus in on control with a big bleeder finish and lower my deck's curve closer to 2. I'll make that room by dropping support for buffing up zombies. Focusing on bleeding will let me run board wipes too.
I like your idea of a control shell with drain. You're in the right colours and it's very much something Varina should by rights do quite well. Full stax is probably for avoiding I guess (meta dependent), but don't be afraid to put elements in if they work for you. I was going to suggest that Meekstone could do some work with Binding Mummy.
As a general playtesting experience bleeder effects have been strong here, but it's an incremental win most definitely. There'll be games you can end on the spot, but others it'll be a fight. Tombstone Stairwell has been really good for me in terms of exploiting ETB and LTB triggers, I'd recommend tracking down a copy, it can really take people out quickly. It's fun, but it's very good too. These mean you can be a little bolder with board wipes, too. Otherwise I'd just look at some of the tribal lords for the buffs you want, and some ways to make sure you keep your board presence up; given that Varina triggers on attack that's going to be important.
Great test, though - Archfiend is a definite shoe in here, it wrecks face.
There's some really, really good stuff to add. I really like the idea of Gisa in here, and I could see Norn too, just wondering if they're a little obsolete or win-more. Altar seems a shoe in, but it's an easy combo option too. I can add it and not use it, or I can just not add it. The removal options I'm almost certain are both heading in, they seem like no-brainers. The problem is the list is pretty full at present, so making cuts will be a little tough.
Thoughts on these?
In:
Out:
The UU in Rewind has made it difficult, and given this isn't really a counter deck it's been a little out of place. The removal I'm adding is the top of what Orzhov has to offer and it should do well. The lands should be reasonable upgrades too, in terms of colour fixing a little quicker.
Kindred Discovery seems like it could add some decent card draw if you feel you need it. 5 mana can be tough, but it helps keep your hand full as you are trying to flood the board and it can help having some extra cards in hand for Varina's ability since hers is just a filtering effect.
I had thought of assassin, but something has stopped me from adding it. I think it’s the combination of limited removal and having to tap down to use it has always put me off a bit.
Corpse Harvester I definitely want a copy of. Being able to fix colours, land drops and fetch a key piece is really valuable. I’ve been keeping eyes out for it, but because it hasn’t seen reprint outside of planechase it’s relatively hard to track down.
Kindred Discovery is crazy, but it sort of comes down at the wrong time. What I’ve found is that early draw really is crucial to success with Varina. Mid to late game once you can sculpt your hand it doesn’t matter so much, you can just toss what you don’t need or save it for reanimation later. I do need a couple more draw options in here but this one has always seemed a little pricey to me.
Wouldn't the instant speed plus exile on Utter End be more important than potentially hitting a land with Vindicate? Might be a meta call.
The creatures look pretty solid overall. The Archfiend of Ifnir seems like a brutal game ender if you get to develop unimpeded for a while. Is Festering Mummy impactful enough to merit a slot? I guess you're consciously trying to curve out so you get to loot 3 on turn 4. Given the Urborg, might be worth jamming Zombie Master for evasion? Lord of the Undead for recursion?
I guess no tutors due to budget/meta constraints?
Silence the Believers seems a bit suboptimal. I'd probably just ram in Path to Exile, but you could consider Curse of the Swine in its place if multi-targeting is an important component. True, you lose the instant speed, but you gain a lot of mana efficiency.
I always found fastlands to be clunkers in EDH, once Isolated Chapel rotates out of standard you could consider picking one up to replace it.
I agree, it's more or less a matter of cost - card shot up to like $30, and the only copy I have is tied up in my Ur-Dragon build. Perhaps it would do more here.
I guess it was just looking at dropping the cost on my removal, although there's no reason I can't run both. I'd consider both superior to Silence the Believers and both are better costed.
Archfiend is rough. I need to really lean into him a little more, but he's absolutely nasty. Guy does not get enough credit in this format. Festering Mummy you hit bang on, it's there to curve out and loot early. I guess he could be Diregraf Ghoul or Dread Wanderer, maybe Stitcher's Supplier or Putrid Imp. Actually thinking on it, Imp plays nicely with Archfiend.
It's sort of a personal preference and a budget constraint. I'd prefer to spend my money on cards that fit well rather than fetch the cards that fit well. Sidisi, Undead Vizier I'd run here, and may well look at dropping it in here from my Thraximundar build.
I do really like Curse. Path to Exile I don't have even a single copy of. Being a multi-format staple makes it brutally expensive, too, so I probably can't manage it unless we see reprint sometime soon. Curse would do nicely here, and it's remarkably more efficient than Silence, it's a strong suggestion.
I haven't drawn it to check it out yet, but I get where you're going with that. I need to make a couple of changes to the landbase anyway, and would love to round out the shocks bare minimum. They're just costly at present, and my LGS doesn't have copies anyway. I think in making the deck thus far I've leaned heavily into the Urborg/Coffers inclusion, so the colours are fairly skewed towards B, which has been a mistake. I've made some slight amendments over the weekend to hopefully adjust a little for this.
Thanks for the critique, this is all pretty helpful stuff!
In:
Ghoulcaller Gisa
Plains
Island
Tainted Field
Out:
Endless Ranks of the Dead
Swamp (3)
Ranks straight up was way too slow and just sucked mostly. Gisa should be able to swell the ranks considerably, she's a limited sac outlet, she should do remarkably in replacement. Obviously the rest of what's here was to rebalance the lands run here. I was leaning heavily into the Coffers theme, without any particular way to fix colour, so it needed adjustment.
There have been some great suggestions come through, in terms of sensible cuts and reasonable to decent adds, so there could well be further changes upcoming.
Typically, Cabal Coffers won't pull the same weight in anything beyond a B deck without a manabase that is on point. You won't get a single return out of it prior to T4, absent an opening hand with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and that is only if every single land you drop has the Swamp subtype. Given that you'd at least like to get some W and U access in those first turns as well, I'm of the opinion that you'd need to be running more dual lands with the Swamp subtype than you presently are to come close to the benefit a B deck will get from it. Without them, I simply don't think Coffers punches enough above it's own weight to warrant a spot in your manabase.
If you really need the ramp, I'd free up the land slot for something else and grab a Smothering Tithe from somewhere. It's going to grab just as much attention as Cabal Coffers from your opponents anyway. Tithe has exploded in value in the last two weeks and might be hard to come by, but even if it's outside of your budget, I'd still just drop the Coffers entirely. I think if you look at the statistic behind your manabase, you will find that in the majority of scenarios, Coffers is just going to be a tremendously slow card.
14 of your 37 lands (excluding Cabal Coffers) will count towards a Swamp trigger. That is a much smaller average than the 22 to 26 lands that will normally count in a B deck. The only way Coffers consistently seems to work in your favor is if you can combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but that has some problems. It requires you to A). draw/tutor it, B). count on your opponent playing it if you cannot, and C). avoid land removal. B decks have the same latter problem, but those decks know the removal is coming at their Coffers because the Tomb is redundant with the majority of their lands. A good opponent is going to recognize that because you are playing a three-color deck with a less consistent manabase (high number of basics), the Tomb is the more valuable target.
Tithe is something I’ve also considered for the deck. It’s devastatingly good, and it’s a nice convenient fixer for colours. Currently I have it in my Bruna build, although being honest it’s probably surplus to requirement there as the deck usually has more land in play than anything it faces down (mono white that ramps well, go figure). I could definitely see sticking it in here. If it’s that popular in standard I won’t pick up another copy, but swapping it out could be very beneficial here.
Thanks for the suggestions:)
After taking a cursory look at your manabase, I 'd start with "tricolored" lands for your deck. That obviously includes Arcane Sanctum, Path of Ancestry, and, if possible (I know you are on a budget), Cavern of Souls. Anything that can tap for all three of your colors with little manipulation on your part, but also isn't so restrictive that you cannot play the majority of your spells (for example Unclaimed Territory). If you are already including pain lands in any capacity, I'd swap them out forCity of Brass and Mana Confluence. They will let you more consistently hit your colors over Caves of Koilos, Underground River, or Adarkar Wastes. There is already a fair amount of life gain in Varina Tribal and I see no reason to run a land that taps for only two of your colors over lands that will tap for all three.
Don't be afraid of the ones that come into play tapped. I love the "fast" variants of lands, including the Shocks, Duals, Checks, etc. I run all of them in my own Varina, but they aren't really that necessary. Zombies are, by their nature, slow because they tend to cost a lot of mana. The majority of your curve is going to start at 3CC because of the sheer number of Lords available to the tribe. There isn't going to be a massive difference between a Turn 1 Watery Grave or Underground Sea over Path of Ancestry or Arcane Sanctum.
Yeah, Cavern is waaay out of what I can afford. I see the point in tricolours, so things like Sanctum and Path of Ancestry are things I’m pretty keen on anyway. Sanctum I have and can easily slot in. I’ve looked at Unclaimed Territory too for an option that doesn’t ETB tapped.
Confluence and Brass are good suggestions, I’ll keep an eye out for those, although at close look my LGS doesn’t have them at present.
After seeing the WAR spoilers I knew I wanted to make some form of Zombie Tribal and I think my first ever paper cards will be bought building a Varina EDH deck, using zombie tokens. I especially like Varina because she is midrange, and after a couple of months of playing Arena, I have realized that midrange is my favorite decktype.
What do you guys think about a zombie token tribal that also runs Gleaming Overseer, Eternal Skylord, Dreadhorde Invasion, Vizier of the Scorpion, and Liliana, Dreadhorde General? I like those three creatures because not only do they create a zombie (army) token as an ETB, they also buff all zombie tokens we control. With all three on the board, all of our zombie tokens have hexproof, menace, flying, and deathtouch; quite potent.
My only problem is trying to fit all the good cards in the 99...
Much the same here, midrange is my jam, apparently. I’ve been playing this since before I was aware of the term. I like it for being a reasonably versatile strategic archetype while also providing a challenge in that there’s no set path to victory. That’s where the pilot comes in.
I think there’s something there with a dedicated swarm deck under Varina. The big challenge you’ll have is keeping your army around and getting critical mass as early as possible. Part of why I haven’t gone all in on that is that it can be a little slow, and tokens can be hard to replace if/when they get removed. It’s why I’ve included all of the zombie death triggers available, at least it’ll hurt to remove them. That being said, the new token lords do look cool - I think with a balance of tradition buff lords and these guys, there’s something there. It’d probably play more like an aggro midrange build, but it’s totally doable. Feel free to discuss inclusions here if you’d like to - I’m happy to lend a hand coming up with a reasonable list.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General I’m less excited about for this build than others seem to be. Most of that is her CMC. She’d be literally right at the top of the curve for the deck, and I’m not certain she’ll have the impact she’d need to. If I grab a copy, I really like her for my Glissa build. Here’s what I’m tossing up for my build from WAR:
Thanks for the insight, I also have considered those cards although I didn't even think about Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord. His reanimation ability does fit well with the theme of the deck, maybe even adding Entomb will ensure we get the recursion we want.
Here is a draft of the list I'm working on, although I need to bring down the price and I'm also unsure on my lands and mana rocks:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-04-19-varina-zombie-tribal/?cb=1556229771
Looks an interesting list. Have you played it through yet? I have questions about a few inclusions: