Wirewood Symbiote is a really cool card for elves. It's just got 1 ability, but it slices, dices, and purees with the greatest of ease. One ability provides 3 great functions:
-repeatedly triggering ETB effects for elves, and for any other cards that care when one comes into play.
-protecting your elves extremely well, since costs can't be responded to.
-allowing for multiple activations of tap abilities.
All that, and it costs just 1 easy payment of G. And note that his ability can be used on both yours, and each opponent's turn. So the restriction on his ability is barely a limiting factor.
I like your deck. It seems like every time I think, "Well, there's an ETB elf that he might add" and check your decklist, you've already got it. And your commander? Talk about perfect for an elf deck!
But, and this is a problem I bumped into with early versions of my Imperious Perfect deck, you've got a lot of ramp and not as much to spend it on as you might think. I mean, Wildheart Invoker is a beast with 16+ mana, and dropping an Ulamog's Crusher early game is always nasty, but...
More combat capability, more big beatsticks, more ability to give trample to anyone you pump. Seems like it could be good. And Tel-Jilad Archers has saved my arse on multiple occasions.
I like your deck. It seems like every time I think, "Well, there's an ETB elf that he might add" and check your decklist, you've already got it. And your commander? Talk about perfect for an elf deck!
But, and this is a problem I bumped into with early versions of my Imperious Perfect deck, you've got a lot of ramp and not as much to spend it on as you might think. I mean, Wildheart Invoker is a beast with 16+ mana, and dropping an Ulamog's Crusher early game is always nasty, but...
More combat capability, more big beatsticks, more ability to give trample to anyone you pump. Seems like it could be good. And Tel-Jilad Archers has saved my arse on multiple occasions.
I think one big difference between perfect and symbiote that you might not be considering is that symbiote is a pretty huge mana sink on its own. Perfect takes 1 mana per turn and it's done (without untappers, at least), in a 4-player game you want to bounce 4 elves per cycle and recast all of them. That takes a lot of mana, especially when recasting forger or a stalactited mold shambler. Plus, since a lot of elves etb a land, you should be thinning your deck pretty quickly, which means more juice and fewer lands on your draws.
Of the cards you mentioned:
lignify: good call, forgot about it. definitely need to find room.
monstrify: if it was an instant, yes, as a sorcery, meh, pass.
tel-jilad archers: I'm confused why you would run this over blightwidow or cloudcrown oak, or a number of other reachers, besides that he's an elf (which isn't hugely relevant unless I can trigger an etb from him). Anyway I already have quite a bit of flyer hate, you'll notice. bowmaster alone should be more than capable of keeping the skies clear.
taunting elf: awesome, awesome, awesome...but i already thought of that Maybe I could up the ante with nath's elite though.
horned helm: yeah I considered it. It's definitely a possibility. the flash equip is spicy.
vorrac battlehorns: only seems useful with timberwatch or branchbender, who are already vastly improved by my general's ability. pass.
wirewood guardian: definitely possible, the high p/t and ability to search for him with some of my elves is tech.
game-trail changeling: ugh, i hope i can do better than a 4/4 for 5. Again, only useful with timberwatch.
silhana ledgewalker: not terrible with some of the equipment, or timberwatch. Possible, but not super likely.
Well, dayum. Nath's Elite = another card to put into my elf deck. Multiple cards with a similar effect only help a commander deck's consistency.
Vorrac Battlehorns is just another way to use the big fatties you have/make. Like I said, more cards with a similar effect = gold standard. Battlehorns, Horned Helm, and Rancor are all just more mechanisms to get trample on your big guys. An Ulamog's Crusher is frightening. An Ulamog's Crusher with trample is a table-threatening menace.
I still think you could stand to lose some of your 1-mana producing weenies - Elvish Guidance makes a great deal of sense, after you explained it (and I thought about it!) but you want/need BIG mana, and removing the ones that aren't Elves or that get lands out of your hands seems like potential slots for other cards. Even with cards like Civic Wayfinder, rushing to drop lands doesn't seem too necessary.
Another spot removal I kinda like is Utopia Vow - Pacifism in mono-green can be super helpful, and the drawback lets you play politics somewhat. "Sorry I had to stop your general from attacking. Here's some ramp."
Lys Alana Huntmaster, maybe? Since you'll be casting and recasting so many elves, being able to swarm with tokens is a real possibility.
I... like your deck. I do. It's quite awesome. Had I known about the Wirewood Symbiote, I might not have bothered building a Mono-G deck using anything but that. Still, since I've got it constructed, I think I'll keep using my Imperious Perfect deck.
Well, dayum. Nath's Elite = another card to put into my elf deck. Multiple cards with a similar effect only help a commander deck's consistency.
Vorrac Battlehorns is just another way to use the big fatties you have/make. Like I said, more cards with a similar effect = gold standard. Battlehorns, Horned Helm, and Rancor are all just more mechanisms to get trample on your big guys. An Ulamog's Crusher is frightening. An Ulamog's Crusher with trample is a table-threatening menace.
I still think you could stand to lose some of your 1-mana producing weenies - Elvish Guidance makes a great deal of sense, after you explained it (and I thought about it!) but you want/need BIG mana, and removing the ones that aren't Elves or that get lands out of your hands seems like potential slots for other cards. Even with cards like Civic Wayfinder, rushing to drop lands doesn't seem too necessary.
Another spot removal I kinda like is Utopia Vow - Pacifism in mono-green can be super helpful, and the drawback lets you play politics somewhat. "Sorry I had to stop your general from attacking. Here's some ramp."
Lys Alana Huntmaster, maybe? Since you'll be casting and recasting so many elves, being able to swarm with tokens is a real possibility.
I... like your deck. I do. It's quite awesome. Had I known about the Wirewood Symbiote, I might not have bothered building a Mono-G deck using anything but that. Still, since I've got it constructed, I think I'll keep using my Imperious Perfect deck.
yeah, i think i need to put in nath's elite. lure on an elf is just crazy in this deck, you can use it as a (repeatable?) board wipe with the right pumps, and/or a way to make all your other guys unblockable. Taunting elf is perfect, but the effect is well worth it even at 5 mana. Plus you can repeatedly clash for topdeck control.
I don't actually have that many fatties. Actually I have almost none. I think this is going to be more of a combo/swarm deck, ramping and drawing like crazy until I has a huge horde, then killing everyone quickly with token swarms and the like. So while rancor is worth it for being, well, rancor, and horned helm MIGHT be worth it for the flash-equip, battlehorns is a definite no.
I'm definitely keeping in the 1-drop mana rampers, the 2-drops I'm a bit less enthused about though. I guess I don't see myself with a lot of cards in my graveyard, so I'll cut werebear for the nath's elite. Playtesting will tell whether extra land drops are necessary, but I do have 4 elves that get me lands-to-hand or draws when etb, so I think it's very feasible that I could end up with a lot of extra lands in hand if I can't ramp them out. Also, I think it'll just speed up my early turns a lot. it's like a ghetto exploration. And especially with the snake, it basically guarantees I'll always be able to put my land onto the field. But playtesting will tell.
utopia vow is interesting, green definitely wants removal badly. Not nearly as good as the treefolk one, I don't think, though. The fact that you'd have to play it before the other creature attacks is generally card-disadvantageous, and I don't think attacking and blocking is where my deck is weakest, moreso against powerful abilities. But maybe.
lys alana huntmaster MAYBE? that card is off the freaking CHAIN in this deck. That's one of my biggest wincons. Potentially generates 4+ tokens every cycle of turns. With timberwatch it's just stupid. But I totally already had it in the decklist you really gotta double check this stuff.
Well, my eyes are kinda crossing from the ephedrine that keeps my lungs functional - my allergies are really bad this week, and ephedrine makes me hyper, but I can't DO anything because moving makes me cough.
My go-to joke for this situation is, "Man, when I first saw The Happening my response was, 'The trees are making people kill themselves? That's not a twist, that's just ME every spring!'" It's not accurate - I actually fell asleep the first time watching that oven-baked turd - but it sums up my current situation.
Um, actual suggestions, actual suggestions... What about Repopulate and other more specific cards, like Elvish Cache? Green's second only to black in terms of recycling the graveyard, especially in common.
Well, my eyes are kinda crossing from the ephedrine that keeps my lungs functional - my allergies are really bad this week, and ephedrine makes me hyper, but I can't DO anything because moving makes me cough.
My go-to joke for this situation is, "Man, when I first saw The Happening my response was, 'The trees are making people kill themselves? That's not a twist, that's just ME every spring!'" It's not accurate - I actually fell asleep the first time watching that oven-baked turd - but it sums up my current situation.
Um, actual suggestions, actual suggestions... What about Repopulate and other more specific cards, like Elvish Cache? Green's second only to black in terms of recycling the graveyard, especially in common.
Eh, I dunno, I tend to dislike graveyard reshuffle effects since they have no immediate board impact, especially since my general is pretty aces at keeping my stuff protected. Elven cache is way overpriced, imo, but I like evolution charm (partially because giving something flying is a great way for me to annihilate it with my flying hate, but also because it's an instant and it's cheaper, and 90% of the time I want a creature back). I bought a copy (just ordered this deck online), so I'll probably try to slot it in if I can find room.
Wow, i love this deck, i'll make my own somedays !
Also, in your last post, the Krosan seems worthless (not an elf), the same with the wolf (a mere +1/+1 seems wothless).
As far as i'm concerned, i'll add :
- Patron of the Wild
- Moonglove extract, Entangling Vines, Roots and Arachnus (cause spot removals seems a nice addition)
- Yeva's Forcemage
- Tangle Hulk
- Elvish Fury
- Adventuring Gear, Vulshok Morningstar
- Presence of Gond
- Yavimaya Elder (one of the best green common, a green Pauper EDH stapple IMO)
I'll remove :
- Nullmage advocate => I HATE this card.
- Runed Stalactite (there are better equipments out there)
- Hand of Emrakul. You'll pay 9 for an annihilator 1 7/7 ?
- Elvish skysweeper. With your creatures that blasts flyers and the symbiote, you shouldn't need this one.
- Prey Upon, since you have a lot of week creatures early on, the little cards gets good only in late game.
- Nightshade peddler doesn't seem good, but i've never tryed it out, so you tell me ^^
- Quirion Trailcrazer seems quite expensive. I don't think you'll replay this one often.
- Wurmskin Forager seems REALLY expensive. I'll prefer the adventuring gear for this one anyday.
The rest wont be easy cuts i'll admit... But i love this deck, i'm quite excited about it ^^ !
Glad you're excited, I am too this guy seems criminally awesome for this format.
I considered the wyluli wolf because of the untap. functional reprints of that guy have been very strong in limited. but it's not maindeck at the moment. Krosan i had for repeatable removal, but it doesn't have much direct synergy, that's true. I just wanted more removal.
don't add roots, that's not actually common. stupid master's edition keeps wrecking my searches ><
personally I think elder will actually be subpar because the general makes other elves so much more powerful, but it's probably worth a shot.
-nullmage seems sweet, pauper means you'll probably have crap to return, and it's easy to politically balance the table. Why the hate?
-stalactite: it's for putting on non-elves. including the general, for protection. and sometimes etb effects. +1/+1 is ok but not the core reason for it.
-hand of emrakul costs 7 not 9, yeah? i mean it's not crazy, but the annihilator can wear a guy down. if it hits early enough he might be able to take someone out of the game. anyway it's not like there's a ton of awesome fatties at common.
-skysweeper isn't as good as the bowmaster, but duplicates are good. The deck has basically no flyers or reachers, added protection is a plus. as is instant-speed removal. You could run matsu-tribe sniper, but this guy can act in response to an attack instead of beforehand.
-prey upon...well, it's green. i take removal where i can get it. might be too hard to get a big enough elf to fight, but there is a decent amount of pump available.
-peddler seems like the nuts with the flying shooters, or with the bow to make a mono-green visara the dreadful. or to pair with random tokens as sweet blockers against decks like gilder bairn that can generate huge fatties that the deck can't kill easily. the fact that repairing is easy seems sweet too.
-trailblazer is definitely not very efficient, but it's an effect the deck wants badly. playtesting should reveal if it's worth the slot.
-forger I think is an excellent late-game plan, since it can make all your crappy tokens and whatnot huge fatties and give you something to do with the crazy mana you can generate. But an even more important reason occurred to me last night, which is that it's only of the deck's only defenses against evincar's justice and other damage-the-whole-board effects, which can pretty easily wipe the board and only let us save 1 elf, and even make it impossible to rebuild in the case of evincar's justice. Yes, forger is overpriced but this deck is built to ramp insanely fast, and dropping this guy multiple times per turn should quickly elevate the field from a bunch of elves who can be easily wiped with the right card, to a bunch of elves who can survive nearly anything between high toughness and symbiote. not that I don't think adventuring gear has potential too, though, it's probably better than bonesplitter.
That's just me : don't like the idea of my oponent probably getting back cantrips, counterspells or removals :/.
I think you may be misreading, or at least misevaluating, the card - you get to choose what they get back, and it can be any player. If you don't want them to have a counterspell, don't give them a counterspell. I think most games it should be easy to return some creatures that have become insignificant, or some ramp that's no longer necessary, or something that isn't hurtful to you in particular.
On the other hand, if an opponent is resolving a bomb and counter guy doesn't have a counterspell, you could destroy some random artifact to give them the counter they need.
Plus it can be a political favor, you could make an ally with a weak player by returning their stuff so you can take down a strong enemy. Unless you're the big bad at the table, I would think most people would be willing to accept a stream of removal returning from their graveyard in exchange for using them on someone besides you.
Not to mention, as painful as it may be to give someone removal that will get used against you...it's better than someone having pestilence for example. Some cards are worth getting rid of, no matter the cost.
Finally, and lastly...it's still a 2/3 for 3. That's far from great, but it's not that bad.
Have you managed to get the combo with stalacite + priest of titiania (or arbor elf + elvish guidance) + your commander yet (with 3 elves or more on the table)?
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Have you managed to get the combo with stalacite + priest of titiania (or arbor elf + elvish guidance) + your commander yet (with 3 elves or more on the table)?
ooh, that is sort of cute. Although it's more like a 4-card combo since you also need a way to abuse the infinite mana/untaps. viridian longbow = win, timberwatch = infinite/infinite elves, wellwisher = infinite life, sprout swarm = infinite tokens, branchbender = all your forests are x/xs...I that's all the ways to abuse it.
Still, pretty hard to assemble with only 1 tutor in the deck. I'm so spoiled by regular EDH where I'm used to 10-30 tutors per deck
ooh, that is sort of cute. Although it's more like a 4-card combo since you also need a way to abuse the infinite mana/untaps. viridian longbow = win, timberwatch = infinite/infinite elves, wellwisher = infinite life, sprout swarm = infinite tokens, branchbender = all your forests are x/xs...I that's all the ways to abuse it.
Still, pretty hard to assemble with only 1 tutor in the deck. I'm so spoiled by regular EDH where I'm used to 10-30 tutors per deck
And nuture intiate and ivy lane denizen and essance warden... It is also infinte number of times a green creature gets cast and enters the battlefield. 8 card is fairly easy to get one of also infinite mana is its own reward.
EDIT: The combo also works with Branchbender instead of Arbor elf and Wildheart invorker is also okish with infinite mana
-hand of emrakul IS 9. ick. cut. i'll put it back in if crusher is just so good i want a crappy one.
-werebear is probably redundant, and threshhold is hard for this deck unless something went wrong.
-bonesplitter was a tough one, but this deck isn't aggressive and isn't worried about most early aggression. i'd rather have protection for my combos.
-elvish skysweeper got cut because i think spidersilk armor is better flyer hate.
+spidersilk armor because it protects me from a lot of small damage effects better, and the flyer hate rocks.
+lignify because i badly want removal, and I don't care about their blockers until it's too late.
+nath's elite because is crazy strong in this deck.
+evolution charm for extra protection, and removal via making something fly. or a land in a pinch i guess.
EDIT: question for people who have played pauper more than I have: how useful are regeneration effects? For example, sporeback troll seems like it could synergize pretty well with my deck to protect against mass-damage stuff, which is by far the scariest thing for this deck to play against I think. It seems like there aren't very many removal spells that block regeneration, yeah?
I found this Leonin bola wich seems in total adequation with your deck idea and it's also a 'kind of' removal ^^. In terms of removals, i'll put leonin bola instead of Lignify (although lignify seems awesome, for me the creature can still block as a 0/4).
EDIT : as it is i love your build. I tryed on my own to make some changes, but all the pieces seems so fitting together that i have a lot of trouble on tying to improve it. Tomorrow i'll have a long night playing, i'll build it as it is here (well, maybe some changes, i'll see) and report you my results ^^.
Bola isn't bad, it's one of the (many) cards that I could put in if I start making cuts. Unfortunately I won't be able to get a real game until Tuesday, so it's all theorycraft at the mo.
That said, I like lignify a LOT more, because it shuts down dangerous utility generals. Bola isn't going to be very useful against crypt rats or noxious ghoul, while lignify not only "kills" them, it also forces their controller to use a removal spell on them before they can replay them unless they have a sac outlet. The fact that he can block is not a big deal imo, either wait until you have a huge swarm and it won't matter, or attack with a bunch of weenies who won't be able to kill it on their own.
Leonin Bola is probably fine in mono-green pauper, but over Lignify? Lignify is on the power level of full power EDH decks. It shuts down generals in all ways possible. It's like a small, targeted Humility. Only Faith's fetters competes with it in its category.
how useful are regeneration effects? For example, sporeback troll seems like it could synergize pretty well with my deck to protect against mass-damage stuff, which is by far the scariest thing for this deck to play against I think. It seems like there aren't very many removal spells that block regeneration, yeah?
I think you want Broken Fall over the troll. Second best is Snake Umbra (good with your Lure-based evasion) - both excellent general protectors together with Whispersilk Cloak which you're already running. You already have some built-in sweeper protection with your general, but these two are a good fit IMO.
Also, haven't you found 42 land with the amount of mana acceleration/fetch you're running a bit excessive? If you're having trouble finding slots, I wouldn't hesitate to go down to 38 or even try as low as 35 lands in this build.
If you're running Mold Shambler, how about Wickerbough Elder and Reap and Sow? I'm missing Desert in your land base, and in mono-green you need every removal edge you can get. It's also great for ensuring Wirewood Herald's timely demise Crushing Vines is another top-notch removal spell that always finds a value target if you want more. If you find yourself without Fierce Empath targets at times, I can also recommend Krosan Tusker (I love the little pig fish).
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I looked through every legal card for this deck last night, so I've got a good list of possible adds.
agreed that lignify is a must for this deck.
i added broken fall with my last update, it seems solid as a secondary protection, which is useful if people instant-speed kill something after I've used symbiote for the turn. also, it can trigger nurture initiate repeatedly for what it's worth.
snake umbra's on my list from last night. Although CA is probably more important for a deck that doesn't already generate a ton.
I'll decide how I feel about the lands after I play it. I usually err on the side of caution, though.
wickbough is probably going in. I don't have enough utility lands to make reap and sow worth it, though, most likely.
Not sure about crushing vines, I feel like enchantments are more worrying to me that artifacts, and my flying removal is pretty solid as-is.
krosan tusker is on the list from last night. generally I like repeatable engines, but his fetchability is nice, and it's hard to beat 3-cmc instant speed CA. and a 6/5 is solid, should it come to that.
Not a fan of fortitude, I want to be able to protect all my creatures at once. Sacking forests is ok I guess, but broken fall seems a hundred times better. Plus, if I put it on an elf, and they target it...is my first reaction to return it to my hand still? Then what was the point of the aura? If my first reaction is to sac a forest, then aren't i losing cards unnecessarily?
Excellent deck, very well thought through. If you are looking for more removal, I would definitely promote the Arachnus Web as the next most appealing option. For so many utility creatures and generals, taking away their activated abilities is clutch.
EDIT: Presence of Gond is another great addition. Works alright as an untap target for Symbiote. Does a fair job boosting your cards that count elves. Also, it allows for infinite creatures if you stick it on Devoted Druid and have an Ivy Lane Denizen in play.
I played against a Baleful Strix (i've lost... A though 'sob' this one wa -_-) and a Dungrove Elve (i totally surclassed it every way possible ^^) and the only thing that made this match reeeeally long is his Sprout Swarm. I think we should have, at least, two or three more spells/creatures than can make our swarm (or only one of our beasts) go through.
Maybe incorporate an equiment that provides flying ?
dungrove elder is a rare? I'm confused. Are you talking about something else.
Personally I don't think that equipment is what the deck needs generally-speaking, definitely not evasive equipment. I could see an argument for toughness-boosting equipment, but every time I've won, it was by getting massive numbers of tokens (except that one time that I got viridian longbow on the deathtouch elf and basically won on turn 4. The rest was a formality). I mean, you're free to change the deck and tell me how it goes, but my feeling is that the deck wins explosively, not through slow grind.
Excellent deck, very well thought through. If you are looking for more removal, I would definitely promote the Arachnus Web as the next most appealing option. For so many utility creatures and generals, taking away their activated abilities is clutch.
EDIT: Presence of Gond is another great addition. Works alright as an untap target for Symbiote. Does a fair job boosting your cards that count elves. Also, it allows for infinite creatures if you stick it on Devoted Druid and have an Ivy Lane Denizen in play.
Well thank you I'm quite happy with it.
Ha, I actually already have both of those in the deck, as I've been fiddling with it through playtesting, and I agree, those two are great. presence is a little riskier than huntmaster since you can't protect it with symbiote, but it's so worth it. The deck loves tokens for a lot of reasons, and even an inferior huntmaster is awesome.
As Wirewood Symbiote seems really strong and as I like to play green and decks with some cool interactions, this deck quickly caught my eye. I ordered some cards and have the deck almost complete by now.
I will try to get some games in next monday and then I may post again.
Do you have tried Copperhorn Scout already? It untaps all of your creatures and then get bounced to do it again the next turn.
As Wirewood Symbiote seems really strong and as I like to play green and decks with some cool interactions, this deck quickly caught my eye. I ordered some cards and have the deck almost complete by now.
I will try to get some games in next monday and then I may post again.
Do you have tried Copperhorn Scout already? It untaps all of your creatures and then get bounced to do it again the next turn.
It's on my list of possibilities. The untap is cool, but on the other hand I'd prefer a bounce target that gives me CA.
The deck has been pretty awesome so far, for the record. In 1v1 it just gets out of control if they don't have enough removal, and it has plenty of gas to win a multiplayer game too. It's won almost every game.
I recently got into Pauper EDH, and Wirewood Symbiote is the first one that I have 98% complete. I have a couple of questions/suggestions:
-Quirion Trailblazer is 4 mana for this effect good? It seems pretty lackluster to me.
-Elvish Mystic I'm assuming is an auto-include, what would it replace?
-In terms of having more Fierce Empath targets, if Hand of Emrakul is too much, Oakgnarl Warrior looks like an absolutely viscious beating. Additonally, is 9 mana really unachievable? Rootbreaker Wurms seems like another option. I guess overall if games do get long, do creatures in the range of 5/5 get the job done of ending the game (since there's a lot of 5/5 tramples for 6 or higher)? I ask because it makes sense to have a "solid beef" gameplan of returning Fierce Empath every turn to provide a constant stream of beefy threats.
-Some of the anti-flyer Elves like Skyshroud Ranger seem weak compared to Matsu-Tribe Sniper.
-I know you said the deck doesn't run out of gas, but I can't help but feel that if you don't draw an Elvish Visionary or variant of, you'll be in topdeck mode super quick. What are your thoughts on Citanul Woodreaders, Edge of Autumn, Explore, Beast Hunt, Commune with Nature, Lair Delve, and Gift of the Gargantuan as card draw?
-Would Wrap in Vigor be the anti-wrath you're looking for?
I recently got into Pauper EDH, and Wirewood Symbiote is the first one that I have 98% complete. I have a couple of questions/suggestions:
-Quirion Trailblazer is 4 mana for this effect good? It seems pretty lackluster to me.
-Elvish Mystic I'm assuming is an auto-include, what would it replace?
-In terms of having more Fierce Empath targets, if Hand of Emrakul is too much, Oakgnarl Warrior looks like an absolutely viscious beating. Additonally, is 9 mana really unachievable? Rootbreaker Wurms seems like another option. I guess overall if games do get long, do creatures in the range of 5/5 get the job done of ending the game (since there's a lot of 5/5 tramples for 6 or higher)? I ask because it makes sense to have a "solid beef" gameplan of returning Fierce Empath every turn to provide a constant stream of beefy threats.
-Some of the anti-flyer Elves like Skyshroud Ranger seem weak compared to Matsu-Tribe Sniper.
-I know you said the deck doesn't run out of gas, but I can't help but feel that if you don't draw an Elvish Visionary or variant of, you'll be in topdeck mode super quick. What are your thoughts on Citanul Woodreaders, Edge of Autumn, Explore, Beast Hunt, Commune with Nature, Lair Delve, and Gift of the Gargantuan as card draw?
-Would Wrap in Vigor be the anti-wrath you're looking for?
sort of random chance that I saw this thread had been bumped, but lucky you, here goes.
-lord knows I wish trailblazer was wood elves #2, but even though 4 is a lot, the fact that it's repeatable makes it worth playing imo. Compare it to sad bot...4 mana for ramping a land, drawing a card, and a chump block. just imagine that card that you're drawing is another sad bot and it's essentially equivalent to trailblazer with symbiote. So yes, it's good. Not great, but good.
-elvish mystic is certainly in. Haven't figured out what to replace, though, haven't seen many pauper decks around recently.
-9 mana is super achievable. I preferred to go for more of an elf-storm type of wincon, but if you want to go with more fatties go nuts, the deck is pretty good at ramping large amounts of mana. But of course you won't get fierce empath reliably so I don't know that I'd want to build around it too heavily.
-sniper was considered, the fact that it's not an elf is the main bummer. But if you want to use it in front of skyshroud ranger they're honestly pretty close.
-all those cards are ok but aren't repeatable. The deck has like 20 etb effect elves and you can replay them at least twice per turn cycle. You'll find stuff to do. Of the cards you mentioned, woodreaders seems meh, edge of autumn seems more meh, explore is fine, beast hunt is awful, commune is pretty good, lair delve is meh, and gift is pretty decent. But I'd rather draw almost any etb elf over those, and there's a LOT of etb elves. I very rarely have a hard time finding things to do.
-not really? I mean the biggest threats imo are the repeatable ones. The deck recovers ok from a pyroclasm-type "wrath", any fatties will survive, you can save at least 1 of your elves (and you should be bouncing them every turn so you might have bounced more before the "wrath"). The way bigger problem is repeatable killers like prodigal pyromancer and friends, and of course the boogeyman, pestilence, and evincar's justice, none of which is effectively countered by wrap in vigor.
Sorry to necro this but I was just curious if you were still playing this and, if so, have you made any recent changes to it?
What is it about this thread that I always notice when someone necros it? It's like my batsignal.
Anyway I do continue to play it but I don't think I've made any additions since M14 really (to be fair, elves aren't on theros there haven't been many exciting cards for me). That said, the following probably bear inclusion:
elvish aberration - the forestcycling is nice if you're stuck, and it's a great untap target. Hugely outclassed by priest of titania even ignoring their casting costs, but still. and a 4/5 ain't small for pdh.
Haha, I just filtered by commons since theros, intending to make a nice long list up above, and aberration is literally the only card I'd consider including. So...yeah, this past year hasn't done much for the deck. That said, it's still a great deck and it's won lots of games against non-PDH decks. No one expects a deck with nothing but commons to go so wildly out of control. And if you're in the same predicament I frequently am - your decks are too strong for the meta and make everyone hate you - it's great to have a deck like this, that you can tune to the max, but because of its restrictions won't wreck the game.
-repeatedly triggering ETB effects for elves, and for any other cards that care when one comes into play.
-protecting your elves extremely well, since costs can't be responded to.
-allowing for multiple activations of tap abilities.
All that, and it costs just 1 easy payment of G. And note that his ability can be used on both yours, and each opponent's turn. So the restriction on his ability is barely a limiting factor.
1 Wirewood Symbiote
I like bouncing (21):
1 elvish pioneer
1 essence warden
1 nurturer initiate
1 taunting elf
1 elvish visionary
1 multani's acolyte
1 nightshade peddler
1 sylvan ranger
1 civic wayfinder
1 farhaven elf
1 fierce empath
1 lys alana bowmaster
1 wood elves
1 yavimaya granger
1 ivy lane denizen
1 llanowar empath
1 lys alana huntmaster
1 Nath's Elite
1 quirion trailblazer
1 wurmskin forager
1 runed stalactite
1 arbor elf
1 birchlore rangers
1 boreal druid
1 fyndhorn elves
1 llanor elves
1 sakura-tribe scout
1 scattershot archer
1 skyshroud archer
1 skyshroud ranger
1 devoted druid
1 heart warden
1 priest of titania
1 seeker of skybreak
1 wellwisher
1 wirewood elf
1 elvish branchbender
1 nullmage advocate
1 timberwatch elf
1 viridian longbow
1 sprout swarm
other creatures (5):
1 thornweald archer
1 wirewood herald
1 mold shambler
1 wildheart invoker
1 ulamog's crusher
1 blazing torch
1 prey upon
1 rancor
1 evolution charm
1 Lignify
1 vulshok gauntlets
1 elvish guidance
1 lace with moonglove
1 spidersilk armor
1 whispersilk cloak
1 serrated arrows
lands:
1 haunted fengraf
1 quicksand
1 slippery karst
1 tranquil thicket
38 Forest
changes:
5/15/13:
-1 hand of emrakul
-1 werebear
-1 bonesplitter
-1 elvish skysweeper
+1 spidersilk armor
+1 lignify
+1 nath's elite
+1 evolution charm
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But, and this is a problem I bumped into with early versions of my Imperious Perfect deck, you've got a lot of ramp and not as much to spend it on as you might think. I mean, Wildheart Invoker is a beast with 16+ mana, and dropping an Ulamog's Crusher early game is always nasty, but...
Well, if it were me (and it's not!) I'd cut: Elvish Guidance, Werebear, Arbor Elf, Birchlore Rangers, Sakura-Tribe Scout, Skyshroud Ranger, Wirewood Elf, Nurturer Initiate, and Blazing Torch. I'd add: Lignify, Monstrify, Tel-Jilad Archers, Taunting Elf (double tech with being able to bounce AFTER blockers are declared!), Horned Helm, Vorrac Battlehorns, Wirewood Guardian, Game-Trail Changeling, and Silhana Ledgewalker.
More combat capability, more big beatsticks, more ability to give trample to anyone you pump. Seems like it could be good. And Tel-Jilad Archers has saved my arse on multiple occasions.
I think one big difference between perfect and symbiote that you might not be considering is that symbiote is a pretty huge mana sink on its own. Perfect takes 1 mana per turn and it's done (without untappers, at least), in a 4-player game you want to bounce 4 elves per cycle and recast all of them. That takes a lot of mana, especially when recasting forger or a stalactited mold shambler. Plus, since a lot of elves etb a land, you should be thinning your deck pretty quickly, which means more juice and fewer lands on your draws.
Of the cards you mentioned:
lignify: good call, forgot about it. definitely need to find room.
monstrify: if it was an instant, yes, as a sorcery, meh, pass.
tel-jilad archers: I'm confused why you would run this over blightwidow or cloudcrown oak, or a number of other reachers, besides that he's an elf (which isn't hugely relevant unless I can trigger an etb from him). Anyway I already have quite a bit of flyer hate, you'll notice. bowmaster alone should be more than capable of keeping the skies clear.
taunting elf: awesome, awesome, awesome...but i already thought of that
horned helm: yeah I considered it. It's definitely a possibility. the flash equip is spicy.
vorrac battlehorns: only seems useful with timberwatch or branchbender, who are already vastly improved by my general's ability. pass.
wirewood guardian: definitely possible, the high p/t and ability to search for him with some of my elves is tech.
game-trail changeling: ugh, i hope i can do better than a 4/4 for 5. Again, only useful with timberwatch.
silhana ledgewalker: not terrible with some of the equipment, or timberwatch. Possible, but not super likely.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Vorrac Battlehorns is just another way to use the big fatties you have/make. Like I said, more cards with a similar effect = gold standard. Battlehorns, Horned Helm, and Rancor are all just more mechanisms to get trample on your big guys. An Ulamog's Crusher is frightening. An Ulamog's Crusher with trample is a table-threatening menace.
I still think you could stand to lose some of your 1-mana producing weenies - Elvish Guidance makes a great deal of sense, after you explained it (and I thought about it!) but you want/need BIG mana, and removing the ones that aren't Elves or that get lands out of your hands seems like potential slots for other cards. Even with cards like Civic Wayfinder, rushing to drop lands doesn't seem too necessary.
Another spot removal I kinda like is Utopia Vow - Pacifism in mono-green can be super helpful, and the drawback lets you play politics somewhat. "Sorry I had to stop your general from attacking. Here's some ramp."
Lys Alana Huntmaster, maybe? Since you'll be casting and recasting so many elves, being able to swarm with tokens is a real possibility.
I... like your deck. I do. It's quite awesome. Had I known about the Wirewood Symbiote, I might not have bothered building a Mono-G deck using anything but that. Still, since I've got it constructed, I think I'll keep using my Imperious Perfect deck.
yeah, i think i need to put in nath's elite. lure on an elf is just crazy in this deck, you can use it as a (repeatable?) board wipe with the right pumps, and/or a way to make all your other guys unblockable. Taunting elf is perfect, but the effect is well worth it even at 5 mana. Plus you can repeatedly clash for topdeck control.
I don't actually have that many fatties. Actually I have almost none. I think this is going to be more of a combo/swarm deck, ramping and drawing like crazy until I has a huge horde, then killing everyone quickly with token swarms and the like. So while rancor is worth it for being, well, rancor, and horned helm MIGHT be worth it for the flash-equip, battlehorns is a definite no.
I'm definitely keeping in the 1-drop mana rampers, the 2-drops I'm a bit less enthused about though. I guess I don't see myself with a lot of cards in my graveyard, so I'll cut werebear for the nath's elite. Playtesting will tell whether extra land drops are necessary, but I do have 4 elves that get me lands-to-hand or draws when etb, so I think it's very feasible that I could end up with a lot of extra lands in hand if I can't ramp them out. Also, I think it'll just speed up my early turns a lot. it's like a ghetto exploration. And especially with the snake, it basically guarantees I'll always be able to put my land onto the field. But playtesting will tell.
utopia vow is interesting, green definitely wants removal badly. Not nearly as good as the treefolk one, I don't think, though. The fact that you'd have to play it before the other creature attacks is generally card-disadvantageous, and I don't think attacking and blocking is where my deck is weakest, moreso against powerful abilities. But maybe.
lys alana huntmaster MAYBE? that card is off the freaking CHAIN in this deck. That's one of my biggest wincons. Potentially generates 4+ tokens every cycle of turns. With timberwatch it's just stupid. But I totally already had it in the decklist
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My go-to joke for this situation is, "Man, when I first saw The Happening my response was, 'The trees are making people kill themselves? That's not a twist, that's just ME every spring!'" It's not accurate - I actually fell asleep the first time watching that oven-baked turd - but it sums up my current situation.
Um, actual suggestions, actual suggestions... What about Repopulate and other more specific cards, like Elvish Cache? Green's second only to black in terms of recycling the graveyard, especially in common.
Eh, I dunno, I tend to dislike graveyard reshuffle effects since they have no immediate board impact, especially since my general is pretty aces at keeping my stuff protected. Elven cache is way overpriced, imo, but I like evolution charm (partially because giving something flying is a great way for me to annihilate it with my flying hate, but also because it's an instant and it's cheaper, and 90% of the time I want a creature back). I bought a copy (just ordered this deck online), so I'll probably try to slot it in if I can find room.
other stuff I thought might be cool:
krosan vorine
patron of the wild
stonewood invoker
hunt down
leaf gilder
moonglove extract
entangling vines
yeva's forcemage
tangle hulk
reins of the vinesteed
elvish fury
matsu-tribe sniper
roots
arachnus web
grazing gladeheart
adventuring gear
nettle sentinel
presence of gond
wyluli wolf
yavimaya elder
So far I'll probably leave the decklist as-is, but those are the main things I could see putting in later.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Glad you're excited, I am too
I considered the wyluli wolf because of the untap. functional reprints of that guy have been very strong in limited. but it's not maindeck at the moment. Krosan i had for repeatable removal, but it doesn't have much direct synergy, that's true. I just wanted more removal.
don't add roots, that's not actually common. stupid master's edition keeps wrecking my searches ><
personally I think elder will actually be subpar because the general makes other elves so much more powerful, but it's probably worth a shot.
-nullmage seems sweet, pauper means you'll probably have crap to return, and it's easy to politically balance the table. Why the hate?
-stalactite: it's for putting on non-elves. including the general, for protection. and sometimes etb effects. +1/+1 is ok but not the core reason for it.
-hand of emrakul costs 7 not 9, yeah? i mean it's not crazy, but the annihilator can wear a guy down. if it hits early enough he might be able to take someone out of the game. anyway it's not like there's a ton of awesome fatties at common.
-skysweeper isn't as good as the bowmaster, but duplicates are good. The deck has basically no flyers or reachers, added protection is a plus. as is instant-speed removal. You could run matsu-tribe sniper, but this guy can act in response to an attack instead of beforehand.
-prey upon...well, it's green. i take removal where i can get it. might be too hard to get a big enough elf to fight, but there is a decent amount of pump available.
-peddler seems like the nuts with the flying shooters, or with the bow to make a mono-green visara the dreadful. or to pair with random tokens as sweet blockers against decks like gilder bairn that can generate huge fatties that the deck can't kill easily. the fact that repairing is easy seems sweet too.
-trailblazer is definitely not very efficient, but it's an effect the deck wants badly. playtesting should reveal if it's worth the slot.
-forger I think is an excellent late-game plan, since it can make all your crappy tokens and whatnot huge fatties and give you something to do with the crazy mana you can generate. But an even more important reason occurred to me last night, which is that it's only of the deck's only defenses against evincar's justice and other damage-the-whole-board effects, which can pretty easily wipe the board and only let us save 1 elf, and even make it impossible to rebuild in the case of evincar's justice. Yes, forger is overpriced but this deck is built to ramp insanely fast, and dropping this guy multiple times per turn should quickly elevate the field from a bunch of elves who can be easily wiped with the right card, to a bunch of elves who can survive nearly anything between high toughness and symbiote. not that I don't think adventuring gear has potential too, though, it's probably better than bonesplitter.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think you may be misreading, or at least misevaluating, the card - you get to choose what they get back, and it can be any player. If you don't want them to have a counterspell, don't give them a counterspell. I think most games it should be easy to return some creatures that have become insignificant, or some ramp that's no longer necessary, or something that isn't hurtful to you in particular.
On the other hand, if an opponent is resolving a bomb and counter guy doesn't have a counterspell, you could destroy some random artifact to give them the counter they need.
Plus it can be a political favor, you could make an ally with a weak player by returning their stuff so you can take down a strong enemy. Unless you're the big bad at the table, I would think most people would be willing to accept a stream of removal returning from their graveyard in exchange for using them on someone besides you.
Not to mention, as painful as it may be to give someone removal that will get used against you...it's better than someone having pestilence for example. Some cards are worth getting rid of, no matter the cost.
Finally, and lastly...it's still a 2/3 for 3. That's far from great, but it's not that bad.
I think it's a very versatile card.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
ooh, that is sort of cute. Although it's more like a 4-card combo since you also need a way to abuse the infinite mana/untaps. viridian longbow = win, timberwatch = infinite/infinite elves, wellwisher = infinite life, sprout swarm = infinite tokens, branchbender = all your forests are x/xs...I that's all the ways to abuse it.
Still, pretty hard to assemble with only 1 tutor in the deck. I'm so spoiled by regular EDH where I'm used to 10-30 tutors per deck
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And nuture intiate and ivy lane denizen and essance warden... It is also infinte number of times a green creature gets cast and enters the battlefield. 8 card is fairly easy to get one of
EDIT: The combo also works with Branchbender instead of Arbor elf and Wildheart invorker is also okish with infinite mana
changes:
5/15/13:
-1 hand of emrakul
-1 werebear
-1 bonesplitter
-1 elvish skysweeper
+1 spidersilk armor
+1 lignify
+1 nath's elite
+1 evolution charm
-hand of emrakul IS 9. ick. cut. i'll put it back in if crusher is just so good i want a crappy one.
-werebear is probably redundant, and threshhold is hard for this deck unless something went wrong.
-bonesplitter was a tough one, but this deck isn't aggressive and isn't worried about most early aggression. i'd rather have protection for my combos.
-elvish skysweeper got cut because i think spidersilk armor is better flyer hate.
+spidersilk armor because it protects me from a lot of small damage effects better, and the flyer hate rocks.
+lignify because i badly want removal, and I don't care about their blockers until it's too late.
+nath's elite because is crazy strong in this deck.
+evolution charm for extra protection, and removal via making something fly. or a land in a pinch i guess.
EDIT: question for people who have played pauper more than I have: how useful are regeneration effects? For example, sporeback troll seems like it could synergize pretty well with my deck to protect against mass-damage stuff, which is by far the scariest thing for this deck to play against I think. It seems like there aren't very many removal spells that block regeneration, yeah?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Bola isn't bad, it's one of the (many) cards that I could put in if I start making cuts. Unfortunately I won't be able to get a real game until Tuesday, so it's all theorycraft at the mo.
That said, I like lignify a LOT more, because it shuts down dangerous utility generals. Bola isn't going to be very useful against crypt rats or noxious ghoul, while lignify not only "kills" them, it also forces their controller to use a removal spell on them before they can replay them unless they have a sac outlet. The fact that he can block is not a big deal imo, either wait until you have a huge swarm and it won't matter, or attack with a bunch of weenies who won't be able to kill it on their own.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think you want Broken Fall over the troll. Second best is Snake Umbra (good with your Lure-based evasion) - both excellent general protectors together with Whispersilk Cloak which you're already running. You already have some built-in sweeper protection with your general, but these two are a good fit IMO.
Also, haven't you found 42 land with the amount of mana acceleration/fetch you're running a bit excessive? If you're having trouble finding slots, I wouldn't hesitate to go down to 38 or even try as low as 35 lands in this build.
If you're running Mold Shambler, how about Wickerbough Elder and Reap and Sow? I'm missing Desert in your land base, and in mono-green you need every removal edge you can get. It's also great for ensuring Wirewood Herald's timely demise
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agreed that lignify is a must for this deck.
i added broken fall with my last update, it seems solid as a secondary protection, which is useful if people instant-speed kill something after I've used symbiote for the turn. also, it can trigger nurture initiate repeatedly for what it's worth.
snake umbra's on my list from last night. Although CA is probably more important for a deck that doesn't already generate a ton.
I'll decide how I feel about the lands after I play it. I usually err on the side of caution, though.
wickbough is probably going in. I don't have enough utility lands to make reap and sow worth it, though, most likely.
Not sure about crushing vines, I feel like enchantments are more worrying to me that artifacts, and my flying removal is pretty solid as-is.
krosan tusker is on the list from last night. generally I like repeatable engines, but his fetchability is nice, and it's hard to beat 3-cmc instant speed CA. and a 6/5 is solid, should it come to that.
Not a fan of fortitude, I want to be able to protect all my creatures at once. Sacking forests is ok I guess, but broken fall seems a hundred times better. Plus, if I put it on an elf, and they target it...is my first reaction to return it to my hand still? Then what was the point of the aura? If my first reaction is to sac a forest, then aren't i losing cards unnecessarily?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDIT: Presence of Gond is another great addition. Works alright as an untap target for Symbiote. Does a fair job boosting your cards that count elves. Also, it allows for infinite creatures if you stick it on Devoted Druid and have an Ivy Lane Denizen in play.
dungrove elder is a rare? I'm confused. Are you talking about something else.
Personally I don't think that equipment is what the deck needs generally-speaking, definitely not evasive equipment. I could see an argument for toughness-boosting equipment, but every time I've won, it was by getting massive numbers of tokens (except that one time that I got viridian longbow on the deathtouch elf and basically won on turn 4. The rest was a formality). I mean, you're free to change the deck and tell me how it goes, but my feeling is that the deck wins explosively, not through slow grind.
Well thank you
Ha, I actually already have both of those in the deck, as I've been fiddling with it through playtesting, and I agree, those two are great. presence is a little riskier than huntmaster since you can't protect it with symbiote, but it's so worth it. The deck loves tokens for a lot of reasons, and even an inferior huntmaster is awesome.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
As Wirewood Symbiote seems really strong and as I like to play green and decks with some cool interactions, this deck quickly caught my eye. I ordered some cards and have the deck almost complete by now.
I will try to get some games in next monday and then I may post again.
Do you have tried Copperhorn Scout already? It untaps all of your creatures and then get bounced to do it again the next turn.
It's on my list of possibilities. The untap is cool, but on the other hand I'd prefer a bounce target that gives me CA.
The deck has been pretty awesome so far, for the record. In 1v1 it just gets out of control if they don't have enough removal, and it has plenty of gas to win a multiplayer game too. It's won almost every game.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
-Quirion Trailblazer is 4 mana for this effect good? It seems pretty lackluster to me.
-Elvish Mystic I'm assuming is an auto-include, what would it replace?
-In terms of having more Fierce Empath targets, if Hand of Emrakul is too much, Oakgnarl Warrior looks like an absolutely viscious beating. Additonally, is 9 mana really unachievable? Rootbreaker Wurms seems like another option. I guess overall if games do get long, do creatures in the range of 5/5 get the job done of ending the game (since there's a lot of 5/5 tramples for 6 or higher)? I ask because it makes sense to have a "solid beef" gameplan of returning Fierce Empath every turn to provide a constant stream of beefy threats.
-Some of the anti-flyer Elves like Skyshroud Ranger seem weak compared to Matsu-Tribe Sniper.
-I know you said the deck doesn't run out of gas, but I can't help but feel that if you don't draw an Elvish Visionary or variant of, you'll be in topdeck mode super quick. What are your thoughts on Citanul Woodreaders, Edge of Autumn, Explore, Beast Hunt, Commune with Nature, Lair Delve, and Gift of the Gargantuan as card draw?
-Would Wrap in Vigor be the anti-wrath you're looking for?
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
sort of random chance that I saw this thread had been bumped, but lucky you, here goes.
-lord knows I wish trailblazer was wood elves #2, but even though 4 is a lot, the fact that it's repeatable makes it worth playing imo. Compare it to sad bot...4 mana for ramping a land, drawing a card, and a chump block. just imagine that card that you're drawing is another sad bot and it's essentially equivalent to trailblazer with symbiote. So yes, it's good. Not great, but good.
-elvish mystic is certainly in. Haven't figured out what to replace, though, haven't seen many pauper decks around recently.
-9 mana is super achievable. I preferred to go for more of an elf-storm type of wincon, but if you want to go with more fatties go nuts, the deck is pretty good at ramping large amounts of mana. But of course you won't get fierce empath reliably so I don't know that I'd want to build around it too heavily.
-sniper was considered, the fact that it's not an elf is the main bummer. But if you want to use it in front of skyshroud ranger they're honestly pretty close.
-all those cards are ok but aren't repeatable. The deck has like 20 etb effect elves and you can replay them at least twice per turn cycle. You'll find stuff to do. Of the cards you mentioned, woodreaders seems meh, edge of autumn seems more meh, explore is fine, beast hunt is awful, commune is pretty good, lair delve is meh, and gift is pretty decent. But I'd rather draw almost any etb elf over those, and there's a LOT of etb elves. I very rarely have a hard time finding things to do.
-not really? I mean the biggest threats imo are the repeatable ones. The deck recovers ok from a pyroclasm-type "wrath", any fatties will survive, you can save at least 1 of your elves (and you should be bouncing them every turn so you might have bounced more before the "wrath"). The way bigger problem is repeatable killers like prodigal pyromancer and friends, and of course the boogeyman, pestilence, and evincar's justice, none of which is effectively countered by wrap in vigor.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Sorry to necro this but I was just curious if you were still playing this and, if so, have you made any recent changes to it?
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
What is it about this thread that I always notice when someone necros it? It's like my batsignal.
Anyway I do continue to play it but I don't think I've made any additions since M14 really (to be fair, elves aren't on theros there haven't been many exciting cards for me). That said, the following probably bear inclusion:
elvish aberration - the forestcycling is nice if you're stuck, and it's a great untap target. Hugely outclassed by priest of titania even ignoring their casting costs, but still. and a 4/5 ain't small for pdh.
Haha, I just filtered by commons since theros, intending to make a nice long list up above, and aberration is literally the only card I'd consider including. So...yeah, this past year hasn't done much for the deck. That said, it's still a great deck and it's won lots of games against non-PDH decks. No one expects a deck with nothing but commons to go so wildly out of control. And if you're in the same predicament I frequently am - your decks are too strong for the meta and make everyone hate you - it's great to have a deck like this, that you can tune to the max, but because of its restrictions won't wreck the game.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6