Quote from Hibidedebajua »I was thinking of playing with crop rotation as my signature spell to have a great tutor and guarentee we have a target for Wrenn. I don't see a reason why not to run dark depths/stage as the wincon. Something like avenger or Titania sounds like a fine back up plan.
Quote from Reaper9889 »I am unsure how well this would work. Like, you would need say 8 lands for the big bombs like eldrazi (more really I guess).
If the first few bombs gets blown up in various ways (which I would expect in competive play - stp say), then the number of lands you are playing over everybody else will hurt a lot.
I guess you can try for some mana denial as you said, but say that you drop a red mass ld turn 4 or so (I assume you need to do something by turn 4 to have a chance in this format). Now, everybody needs to rebuild and wrenn helps you here, but you need to get to 4 mana (at least) to play summer bloom again, since it was likely played once before. At that point, I guess you can ultimate wreen and do the mass ld every 6th turn. That would be devasting, but if someone went for you and kept their lands back the first time, he likely could kill you between turn 4 and 10. Also, you need to win somehow.
Besides that, I am not sure if turn 4 reset is fast enough. It could be, but I am not certain. I could easily see this format becoming faster than that.
On the other hand, you could do mana denial that does not hurt someone with a lot of lands. I think that would be rare, like ruination,bloodmoon and magus of the moon, if you are focusing on basics and the usual stax cards like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Sphere of Resistance and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but apart from these?
Quote from schweinefett »Actually, i thought the mana denial package would include some number of stax effects like reaper9889 says. you forgot 3ball, by the way. that basically locks out players if they're always on 0-2 lands.
could you run a sneaky seismic assault as a wincon? or lightning storm? especially if you've got retrace on, you can quite easily cast it every turn after a while.
also, is there an argument for atarka's command as the sig instead? sure you're stuck on playing 2 lands instead, but the flexibility of stopping someone's aetherflux reservoir combo, or as reach at the end of the game seems useful too.
Quote from 3drinks »Think your best win con here is gonna be punishing grove tbh. Seems the most compact and hard to interact with outside of 'Yard hate, which you can play around.
Quote from DirkGently »Quote from 3drinks »Think your best win con here is gonna be punishing grove tbh. Seems the most compact and hard to interact with outside of 'Yard hate, which you can play around.I did see that when I was perusing lands decklists for ideas, so I thought about it a little.
I guess it must have some validity since it sees competitive play there, but considering they're both 1-ofs I think that cuts down the effectiveness considerably. It's really hard to draw both, since we probably aren't running any land tutors and instant tutors hardly exist. It's also much slower to kill an entire table instead of just 1 opponent. In fact it's pretty counterproductive as a kill tool since you're probably healing a total of more than 2 life every time you tap the land. I guess you still win eventually because you focus down one person at a time, but it'd take ages to kill 3 players on its own. With lands you can recur multiple punishing fires with each activation, and do it repeatedly with multiple groves, but that's not really an option here (I mean, we can copy groves with vesuva and such).
I think at best it's a control tool, not a wincon. And I'd be a lot more likely to use it in a version around crop rotation, since at least then you only need to luck into drawing one of the pieces to put the combo together.