In this article, we see that some legacy opens are being replaced. Could this be setting a dangerous precedent? Pete Hoefling did say that he intends to keep supporting legacy, but Does this mean that the legacy opens may be cut more and more?
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If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
I was at the last Legacy open in Orlando, it had a relatively small turnout. This could be their reasoning for most of it. Kind of sad since its a close one.
It doesn't sound like anything to be concerned about. I get from that schedule and the following article that Starcitygames is just testing new formulas.
I have zero interest in watching anything on Sunday that isn't Legacy. I may have been tempted to watch/listen to Modern as background noise despite my not actually playing in that format but I couldn't care less about watching a sealed event or a second Standard event. So one less viewer on those weekends, at least. More bandwidth for those that are watching!
Starcitygames does need to make a profit by having enough registered players and customers show up to their events. You cannot begrudge them for trying new things in an effort to be (more) profitable in areas where Legacy was poorly received previously. Hopefully these test events get disappointing turnouts and enough interest is expressed by the local Legacy players that those cities get an opportunity at Legacy Opens again.
Their selections were carefully made. Keep in mind that 2012 also saw consistently record-breaking attendance numbers in certain locations, with well over 1,000 players at some events.
One notices that SCG absolutely has events scheduled in every place where that happened. That not every city, apparently, can draw that level of participation from the community unfortunately seems to be true. On the other hand, look on the bright side. Here in Beijing I've never seen 100 Legacy players in a room together. That would be a really, really happy day for me (and I'm sure the playing community has more than enough decks between ourselves) but I don't think it's a dream that will come true this year.
While I do understand why they made this move, I am kinda bummed by this news. I thought Legacy would always be a part of the opens and it's disappointing to see them remove it from some of them.
Still, I almost wish they just went with modern instead of going the way they did with Standard on Sunday. Back to back Standard is awful.
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Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
I think it is at risk. I see a lot of overlap between Stadard and Modern players at my store, but virtually none between Legacy and the others. Modern is now weekly and Legacy has been pushed to every other week. If Starcity goes away, the format will be dead. I hope it doesn't happen, but it seems to be dying a very slow death.
With the fact that they are about to release a set devoted to Modern, I wouldn't be surprised if Modern took a lot of Legacy slots. That being said they are very aware of Legacy's place both in tournament player's mindset as well as the secondary market. Just as they wouldn't get rid of the reserve list, they would not stop supporting Legacy tournaments.
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Sometimes I feel like the word "interactivity" around here is akin to the word "electrolytes" in sports drinks. The public doesn't really know what it means, but they figure it's a good thing to have.
I posted this in the other thread referencing this subject.
Statistical analysis is necessary to understand whats going on.
There are 5 cities where legacy is not being played on Sunday and their last records of attendance
Open location - attendance standard/legacy
Orlando FL 389/147 (2012) 318/146 (2011) Sommerset NJ - no data Dallas TX 528/174 (2012) 342/157 (2011) - noted there are 2 tx events in 2013, jan. std/leg & may std/std Richmond VA 410/164 (2011) Salt Lake, UT - no data
I pulled 5 random cities as the control for data analysis.
Las Vegas 439/222
Worchester 502/305
St. Louis 421/223
Kansas City 396/207
Nashville 419/212
From this data we can pull the following:
1) SCG did not pull any legacy events from markets where legacy attendance was above 200 attendees
2) SCG did not pull any legacy events from markets where legacy attendance was a minimum of 50% of standard attendance
Prize support analysis
SCG hands out $20,000 in prizes in a weekend. $10,000 for standard and $10,000 for legacy.
$10,000 divided by $40 entrance fees = 250 attendees to break even.
This does not factor the costs of paying the staff and renting the location, which is likely offset by the cost of standard.
A minimum of 500 attendees are required across the whole weekend to cover prize support. I'm not sure how much it costs to rent a hall or a location to hold the event, but I imagine it must be costly.
From this exercise I learned that SCG does quite a bit to promote the game by running their open series and does to sometimes without a profit on the actual events themselves.
It should be noted in the market below 200 attendees that attendance grew year after year but still was below a reasonable break even thresh hold.
Did you even bother to factor in single's sales? Legacy staples can be quite pricy, and only 150 players may show, but they might make profit from the singles they sell.
Honestly, they should have tested Modern on Sunday instead another day of Standard
Did you even bother to factor in single's sales? Legacy staples can be quite pricy, and only 150 players may show, but they might make profit from the singles they sell.
Honestly, they should have tested Modern on Sunday instead another day of Standard
I did my share of work, its your turn. You also have to factor in advertising, rental and wages paid.
Thanks for that Tormod. I had suspicions that the dates they changed didn't have good enough Legacy turnout to be worthwhile and the numbers do bear that out. They just dropped the least profitable locations for Legacy and decided to test out other formats. What this means long-term for the format, I don't know, but for the time being, I think their support of Legacy isn't going anywhere.
From my experience most people I have come into contact with hate modern and want to play legacy. Banning all the fun stuff makes the format pretty lame. Legacy was a thing before any opens and will continue to be a thing.
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currently playing: LEGACY loam/depthsBG Sneak showUR LED DredgeUBR ReanimatorUB landsBURG EDH DoranWBG JhoiraUR
From my experience most people I have come into contact with hate modern and want to play legacy. Banning all the fun stuff makes the format pretty lame. Legacy was a thing before any opens and will continue to be a thing.
Wizards did this with Legacy but has relaxed that list greatly since; I suspect they're just being cautious with the new format.
As far as Legacy I think there's enough cards out there that people will be able to sub in as a lower tier replacement such as the original duals (I'm running Hallowed Fountains till I can afford tundra's) and while it is not ideal it is a trend I suspect to take hold in years to come. The reserve list is the biggest issue here (obviously)
In this article, we see that some legacy opens are being replaced. Could this be setting a dangerous precedent? Pete Hoefling did say that he intends to keep supporting legacy, but Does this mean that the legacy opens may be cut more and more?
For all the negatives surrounding this very topic, I believe legacy survives in America thanks to SCG. They created the interest and have built up the market for said cards.
When modern masters was announced I immediately feared for legacy more than applauded Modern. I still support legacy and feel its power level is the best of all constructed formats. However, there is an innate sense of 'the times are changing'. SCG is on record for saying 2013 will still have legacy events (and it does). I look to 2014 more than anything. I fear we'll see some serious phasing out in '14 -- right now the company is clearly reconfiguring certain venues. They need to profit.
The one X-factor is that legacy is profitable from a business perspective. Buying and selling legacy cards (duals, staples, etc) nets more money than other formats. SCG has a lot of money invested in legacy. They would need to somehow offload their legacy inventory to justify dropping legacy events (otherwise they sit on cards few people will buy because there are little to no events to play them at).
I would pencil in Legacy as "at risk" but also preface it's been in this classification for several years already.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
So some opens were replaced. The grand majority are still legacy and honestly SCG has so much invested in legacy that they couldn't abandon it unless they somehow unloaded their entire legacy inventory. The format has a ton of support right now and people who own 4 tundra's, u. sea's, FoW's, etc. etc. don't just stop playing the format unless WotC tries to kill legacy with the banned list (banning brainstorm, ABUR dual lands, and other pillars of the format.)
Good data Tormod. And like they said in the article, they are simply trying something new to see what happens. They are a business first and foremost and they are trying to maximize profits.
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I don't like double Standard. If they don't want to have a Legacy event, that's fine, but it's interesting to watch different formats each day. Sealed actually sounds kind of interesting though. I like Sealed, but there don't seem to be many opportunities to play it outside of Prereleases and PTQs.
So some opens were replaced. The grand majority are still legacy and honestly SCG has so much invested in legacy that they couldn't abandon it unless they somehow unloaded their entire legacy inventory. The format has a ton of support right now and people who own 4 tundra's, u. sea's, FoW's, etc. etc. don't just stop playing the format unless WotC tries to kill legacy with the banned list (banning brainstorm, ABUR dual lands, and other pillars of the format.)
Good data Tormod. And like they said in the article, they are simply trying something new to see what happens. They are a business first and foremost and they are trying to maximize profits.
There lies the problem. At some point, legacy just becomes less profitable than standard.
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If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
There lies the problem. At some point, legacy just becomes less profitable than standard.
If scg was only concerned with "profit" they wouldn't bother growing the legacy format to the level it is now. Standard will always be more profitable because players are required to build a new deck every 3 months.
I'm convinced SCG runs legacy because the whole scg family is committed keeping legacy alive and well.
This weekend is GP Denver with 700 attendees, hosted by Wizards. Wizards will run at least 1 legacy GP every year. The format will never be dead.
As far as Legacy I think there's enough cards out there that people will be able to sub in as a lower tier replacement such as the original duals (I'm running Hallowed Fountains till I can afford tundra's) and while it is not ideal it is a trend I suspect to take hold in years to come. The reserve list is the biggest issue here (obviously)
The problem with running sub par cards is that you will lose more often. If you want to play competitively, you are going to need the manabase.
Like I said in the post around this in Magic General, at this point Legacy is basically a closed format. Either you have the manabase and staples to play and enjoy it, or you don't have them and can't afford to enter the format. That's not a healthy format, that's a dying format.
This weekend is GP Denver with 700 attendees, hosted by Wizards. Wizards will run at least 1 legacy GP every year. The format will never be dead.
Dead is a relative term when talking about MTG formats. Vintage isn't "dead", but I wouldn't call it a healthy format.
Dead is a relative term when talking about MTG formats. Vintage isn't "dead", but I wouldn't call it a healthy format.
By reading your posts, a healthy format by your definition is one where they reprint cards and mail them to your house every time a card goes above $5.
Is $50 hellkite healthy?
Are $25 sphinxes revelation healthy?
Are $15 death rite shaman healthy?
Are $4 uncommons like lingering souls and rancor healthy?
That's just standard were talking about. Magic may be advertised as age 12 and up, but it not designed to be cheap. Its a subscription based business that depends on spending hundreds of dollars on new cards every 3 months. That why creatures get more powerful each year. The old ones become obsolete and the new ones are new tech.
We all know because Wotc has their reprint policy there is a set amount of staples in Legacy that are scarce and can't be increased as of now. Profit and money circulation are crucial parts in any kind of market. What must happen in order for Legacy to be healthy not only meta-game wise but also business wise is for cards to keep on circulating from players to other players. This causes the market to continually "re-supplying itself" and preventing supply from becoming so scarce to the point that the product costs to much in the eyes of the buyer and the buyer has an incentive to seek an alternative like Modern or Standard (more people go to Modern or Standard because a Dual land is 1500 bucks for example). What most people are afraid of is that since some essential cards of Legacy like Duals are bottlenecked then that is going to cause prices to eventually skyrocket as a result of what I said before.
There are several ways to solve this issue, I'll just list the one's that come to mind...
1. Wotc abolishes their reprint policy so Legacy essentials are not bottlenecked anymore-this has been discussed to death on the Complaints thread so I'm not going to elaborate further
2. Allow proxies to be used at competitive games- Unless there are proxies that can be sold at a profit then shops make no money...then again if you can make money on proxies why not make real cards in the first place?! This method is highly controversial, not profitable, bottleneck still exists (for real cards).
3. Make MTGO cards not coincide with reserve list- I don't really know about MTGO and it's market on cards but it's really stupid if you make people buy a Force of Will for more than 90 dollars...it's one thing to pay a lot of money for cardboard, it's another to make someone pay a lot of money for a bunch of photons. http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/MED_Force_of_Will.html This method is only going to keep Legacy a permanent thing digitally.
Though Standard and Modern have their rough patches when it comes to how much a card costs neither of these formats have cards that are bottlenecked like Legacy and Vintage.
This post pretty much belongs to the Complaint thread so I'll conclude by saying that Legacy is always at risk as long as there is some sort of bottleneck on the essential cards in competitive play.
By reading your posts, a healthy format by your definition is one where they reprint cards and mail them to your house every time a card goes above $5.
Not sure where you get that from. So lose the personal attacks. If you have no argument, don't post.
Is $50 hellkite healthy?
Are $25 sphinxes revelation healthy?
Are $15 death rite shaman healthy?
Are $4 uncommons like lingering souls and rancor healthy?
Just because Standard may cost $500 to build a deck doesn't mean a $1500 Legacy deck is cheap. The mana base for Legacy alone is thousands of dollars. That pushes it right out of the realm of possibility for a lot of players. that makes is a closed format.
And lol at $4 Rancor's. You are really letting your biases shine through.
Just because Standard may cost $500 to build a deck doesn't mean a $1500 Legacy deck is cheap. The mana base for Legacy alone is thousands of dollars. That pushes it right out of the realm of possibility for a lot of players. that makes is a closed format.
No. What makes legacy a closed format is that there is a finite number of cards on the reserved list and that number will never grow, only decrease.
Spending $400 on four undergound seas means you will always be able to use them till magic disappears compared to spending $200 on a playset of thundermaw hellkites which will rotate in a year and drop to $5. $200 for one year of play or $400 for a lifetime of play. Hm, which sounds smarter and a better investment?
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
Just because Standard may cost $500 to build a deck doesn't mean a $1500 Legacy deck is cheap. The mana base for Legacy alone is thousands of dollars. That pushes it right out of the realm of possibility for a lot of players. that makes is a closed format.
And lol at $4 Rancor's. You are really letting your biases shine through.
SCG has rancor's at $3.50, so we can shave $2 off a deck that runs a playset
To be competitive you have to build a new standard deck every 3 months, that's $2000 a year. So yes, legacy is cheap by comparison and the cards are good for life and you get to play the best Magic possible.
What list are you looking that costs 'thousands of dollars'? It doesn't exist.
In this article, we see that some legacy opens are being replaced. Could this be setting a dangerous precedent? Pete Hoefling did say that he intends to keep supporting legacy, but Does this mean that the legacy opens may be cut more and more?
signature by rivenor at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.
I have zero interest in watching anything on Sunday that isn't Legacy. I may have been tempted to watch/listen to Modern as background noise despite my not actually playing in that format but I couldn't care less about watching a sealed event or a second Standard event. So one less viewer on those weekends, at least. More bandwidth for those that are watching!
Starcitygames does need to make a profit by having enough registered players and customers show up to their events. You cannot begrudge them for trying new things in an effort to be (more) profitable in areas where Legacy was poorly received previously. Hopefully these test events get disappointing turnouts and enough interest is expressed by the local Legacy players that those cities get an opportunity at Legacy Opens again.
One notices that SCG absolutely has events scheduled in every place where that happened. That not every city, apparently, can draw that level of participation from the community unfortunately seems to be true. On the other hand, look on the bright side. Here in Beijing I've never seen 100 Legacy players in a room together. That would be a really, really happy day for me (and I'm sure the playing community has more than enough decks between ourselves) but I don't think it's a dream that will come true this year.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Still, I almost wish they just went with modern instead of going the way they did with Standard on Sunday. Back to back Standard is awful.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
Banner ala Lymons
Statistical analysis is necessary to understand whats going on.
There are 5 cities where legacy is not being played on Sunday and their last records of attendance
Open location - attendance standard/legacy
Orlando FL 389/147 (2012) 318/146 (2011)
Sommerset NJ - no data
Dallas TX 528/174 (2012) 342/157 (2011) - noted there are 2 tx events in 2013, jan. std/leg & may std/std
Richmond VA 410/164 (2011)
Salt Lake, UT - no data
I pulled 5 random cities as the control for data analysis.
Las Vegas 439/222
Worchester 502/305
St. Louis 421/223
Kansas City 396/207
Nashville 419/212
From this data we can pull the following:
1) SCG did not pull any legacy events from markets where legacy attendance was above 200 attendees
2) SCG did not pull any legacy events from markets where legacy attendance was a minimum of 50% of standard attendance
Prize support analysis
SCG hands out $20,000 in prizes in a weekend. $10,000 for standard and $10,000 for legacy.
$10,000 divided by $40 entrance fees = 250 attendees to break even.
This does not factor the costs of paying the staff and renting the location, which is likely offset by the cost of standard.
A minimum of 500 attendees are required across the whole weekend to cover prize support. I'm not sure how much it costs to rent a hall or a location to hold the event, but I imagine it must be costly.
From this exercise I learned that SCG does quite a bit to promote the game by running their open series and does to sometimes without a profit on the actual events themselves.
It should be noted in the market below 200 attendees that attendance grew year after year but still was below a reasonable break even thresh hold.
Thanks SCG for supporting Legacy
Honestly, they should have tested Modern on Sunday instead another day of Standard
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
I did my share of work, its your turn. You also have to factor in advertising, rental and wages paid.
I look forward to your analysis
currently playing:
LEGACY
loam/depthsBG
Sneak showUR
LED DredgeUBR
ReanimatorUB
landsBURG
EDH
DoranWBG
JhoiraUR
Wizards did this with Legacy but has relaxed that list greatly since; I suspect they're just being cautious with the new format.
As far as Legacy I think there's enough cards out there that people will be able to sub in as a lower tier replacement such as the original duals (I'm running Hallowed Fountains till I can afford tundra's) and while it is not ideal it is a trend I suspect to take hold in years to come. The reserve list is the biggest issue here (obviously)
For all the negatives surrounding this very topic, I believe legacy survives in America thanks to SCG. They created the interest and have built up the market for said cards.
When modern masters was announced I immediately feared for legacy more than applauded Modern. I still support legacy and feel its power level is the best of all constructed formats. However, there is an innate sense of 'the times are changing'. SCG is on record for saying 2013 will still have legacy events (and it does). I look to 2014 more than anything. I fear we'll see some serious phasing out in '14 -- right now the company is clearly reconfiguring certain venues. They need to profit.
The one X-factor is that legacy is profitable from a business perspective. Buying and selling legacy cards (duals, staples, etc) nets more money than other formats. SCG has a lot of money invested in legacy. They would need to somehow offload their legacy inventory to justify dropping legacy events (otherwise they sit on cards few people will buy because there are little to no events to play them at).
I would pencil in Legacy as "at risk" but also preface it's been in this classification for several years already.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Good data Tormod. And like they said in the article, they are simply trying something new to see what happens. They are a business first and foremost and they are trying to maximize profits.
Currently Playing:
Retired
There lies the problem. At some point, legacy just becomes less profitable than standard.
signature by rivenor at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663
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I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.
If scg was only concerned with "profit" they wouldn't bother growing the legacy format to the level it is now. Standard will always be more profitable because players are required to build a new deck every 3 months.
I'm convinced SCG runs legacy because the whole scg family is committed keeping legacy alive and well.
This weekend is GP Denver with 700 attendees, hosted by Wizards. Wizards will run at least 1 legacy GP every year. The format will never be dead.
The problem with running sub par cards is that you will lose more often. If you want to play competitively, you are going to need the manabase.
Like I said in the post around this in Magic General, at this point Legacy is basically a closed format. Either you have the manabase and staples to play and enjoy it, or you don't have them and can't afford to enter the format. That's not a healthy format, that's a dying format.
Dead is a relative term when talking about MTG formats. Vintage isn't "dead", but I wouldn't call it a healthy format.
By reading your posts, a healthy format by your definition is one where they reprint cards and mail them to your house every time a card goes above $5.
Is $50 hellkite healthy?
Are $25 sphinxes revelation healthy?
Are $15 death rite shaman healthy?
Are $4 uncommons like lingering souls and rancor healthy?
That's just standard were talking about. Magic may be advertised as age 12 and up, but it not designed to be cheap. Its a subscription based business that depends on spending hundreds of dollars on new cards every 3 months. That why creatures get more powerful each year. The old ones become obsolete and the new ones are new tech.
There are several ways to solve this issue, I'll just list the one's that come to mind...
1. Wotc abolishes their reprint policy so Legacy essentials are not bottlenecked anymore-this has been discussed to death on the Complaints thread so I'm not going to elaborate further
2. Allow proxies to be used at competitive games- Unless there are proxies that can be sold at a profit then shops make no money...then again if you can make money on proxies why not make real cards in the first place?! This method is highly controversial, not profitable, bottleneck still exists (for real cards).
3. Make MTGO cards not coincide with reserve list- I don't really know about MTGO and it's market on cards but it's really stupid if you make people buy a Force of Will for more than 90 dollars...it's one thing to pay a lot of money for cardboard, it's another to make someone pay a lot of money for a bunch of photons. http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/MED_Force_of_Will.html This method is only going to keep Legacy a permanent thing digitally.
Though Standard and Modern have their rough patches when it comes to how much a card costs neither of these formats have cards that are bottlenecked like Legacy and Vintage.
This post pretty much belongs to the Complaint thread so I'll conclude by saying that Legacy is always at risk as long as there is some sort of bottleneck on the essential cards in competitive play.
Not sure where you get that from. So lose the personal attacks. If you have no argument, don't post.
Just because Standard may cost $500 to build a deck doesn't mean a $1500 Legacy deck is cheap. The mana base for Legacy alone is thousands of dollars. That pushes it right out of the realm of possibility for a lot of players. that makes is a closed format.
And lol at $4 Rancor's. You are really letting your biases shine through.
No. What makes legacy a closed format is that there is a finite number of cards on the reserved list and that number will never grow, only decrease.
Spending $400 on four undergound seas means you will always be able to use them till magic disappears compared to spending $200 on a playset of thundermaw hellkites which will rotate in a year and drop to $5. $200 for one year of play or $400 for a lifetime of play. Hm, which sounds smarter and a better investment?
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
SCG has rancor's at $3.50, so we can shave $2 off a deck that runs a playset
To be competitive you have to build a new standard deck every 3 months, that's $2000 a year. So yes, legacy is cheap by comparison and the cards are good for life and you get to play the best Magic possible.
What list are you looking that costs 'thousands of dollars'? It doesn't exist.