Actually winning and practically winning on turn 1 are things that do happen. That does not by any means make legacy and vintage "turn 1 formats" though, which I think is what he was saying.
Your are leaving out the most important difference: You probably won't get combo'ed out on T1, T2, or T3 in Modern unless you run into a god hand infect deck. That's a huge difference between the formats. I would venture to say that players hate of losing that quick in Legacy was a big driver to adding that guideline in Modern
I got turn 3'd twice by Eggs at a PTQ.
I don't know why you keep acting like you have something to prove. Your arrogant attitude isn't gonna turn anyone to Modern from Legacy. Modern and Legacy are completely different and should be treated as such. With the direction that WotC is taking with Modern, it seems that Modern is going to be more of a giant Standard than Legacy lite. Not that there's anything wrong with that (I actually somewhat enjoy Modern, but it's a very underpowered format), but that means you should probably start taking your *****ing of people not playing Modern to the Standard forums.
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Twitter: @mtgtwin1 Arizona players, click above! MTGDeckBlog - a place for me to dump my deck ideas (mostly Legacy). Some good, some bad, but mainly you decide
Not that there's anything wrong with that (I actually somewhat enjoy Modern, but it's a very underpowered format), but that means you should probably start taking your *****ing of people not playing Modern to the Standard forums.
Or under a bridge.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
I am having a hard time understanding how many times the same arguments must be rehashed in this thread.
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Currently Running:
:symb::symu::symg: BUG Tempo
:symb::symg::symw: JUNK
:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
I am having a hard time understanding how many times the same arguments must be rehashed in this thread.
What arguments are those exactly? I mean there are a few undeniable truths when it comes to this format that I love so much.
1. Some cards will never be reprinted.
2. That makes the card pool finite, though virtually infinite.
#2 is essentially where we have disagreements.
Some people believe that there are enough cards out there that they'll continue to be passed down and/or sold so that those who want to be able to play Legacy will always be able to do so. In other words, if you want an Underground Sea you will always be able to GET an Underground Sea.
Then there are those who believe that, yes, you will always be able to get an Underground Sea but at what price? They believe eventually, the price will be more than the average person is willing to spend. After all, how many people are willing to spend a grand on a Black Lotus. Granted, the difference in supply between that card and a dual land is great. So maybe the price never gets totally insane.
And then there are those who believe that eventually, regardless of how many cards there are, they will NOT be sold and drop out of circulation.
Some are destroyed
Some die with their owners
Some get thrown away by parents cleaning out rooms
Some are too damaged to play with
The question is, which group is right? I have no idea. I don't have a crystal ball. What I do know is this. I'm going to enjoy playing Legacy for as long as I can. There is no point in complaining about things that are out of my control. The RL isn't going away so new cards are not going to be available through reprinting. So one either spends the money to buy what he needs or plays another format. I mean what else is there?
Whatever happens, I'm not going to worry about it.
Two Saturdays ago, we have a local Legacy event where we more than doubled the attendance of the one prior. That gives me hope.
This Saturday, I'm going to another one and planning to play Dredge. I may very well get my butt kicked but don't even care. I've wanted to play this deck for so long and now I'm getting the chance to do it.
Despite what Wizards says eventually they will reprint a lot of the staples because they like profit and EDH is quickly becoming their most popular format with the average consumer. EDH allows a lot of these cards and players will want them. Eventually they will reprint RL cards in some kind of Commander set, because Wizards is a company that likes to make money and they know this will make money.
I'm not saying it will happen soon, but it will happen before the cards in existence become destroyed or whatever the concern is.
Despite what Wizards says eventually they will reprint a lot of the staples because they like profit and EDH is quickly becoming their most popular format with the average consumer. EDH allows a lot of these cards and players will want them. Eventually they will reprint RL cards in some kind of Commander set, because Wizards is a company that likes to make money and they know this will make money.
I'm not saying it will happen soon, but it will happen before the cards in existence become destroyed or whatever the concern is.
Personally, I hope you're right. But WotC has gone on record saying that the RL isn't going away and they can't even tell us why. They'd probably have to be at the point where they're going broke in order to abolish the RL.
I just don't see it happening, as much as I would love to get a Moat without having to spend $300 on one.
02/17/2013 SCG Legacy Open Cincinnati: 279 players
Legacy is amazing and people recognize.
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:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
02/17/2013 SCG Legacy Open Cincinnati: 279 players
That's great.
I wonder how many people are from the area though?
In central Jersey there are some small legacy groups, but not a strong community I think. SCG Edison had well over 200 people but many I met drove quite a few hours to be there. I wonder if these numbers really represent legacy well per state with so many people traveling 4 plus hours for these events when they don't travel that far for weekly events at the local game shop in those same areas.
I also met people who only play legacy with their buddies but don't support the tournaments in this area. They wanted to play at SCG though.
Another two people I went with built decks just for this event and never played legacy before this. They choose modern and standard over the regular local legacy events. They aren't really supporting legacy outside of the SCG event.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I wonder how many people are from the area though?
We don't have access to that information (and likely SCG doesn't either). We just have to assume anyone within a reasonable distance away could make it. (example: 2 hr driving time)
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
First off, I don't think Legacy is dying, I agree that SCG is reevaluating certain events/locations based on attendance, but I don't think that is any reason to assume a future of neglect towards Legacy.
Second, While I agree that price of cards on the RL such as ABUR lands will continue to sky rocket, I don't agree with abolishing the RL entirely(any time in the near future). However, I would like to see them return to the old policy that allowed them to print cards off of the RL as promotional cards.
Third: Modern is not going to end Legacy. In the very begining(when modern was in testing before its official release) I loved the format, sure some things needed taken care of (caugh hypergenesis caugh), but now I feel like the amount of bannings has left the format financially unstable and I have now sold/traded all of my Shocklands and other modern staples towards legacy cards, and I know I'm not the only one. The truth is that Legacy is a great investment, sure prices change based on what decks are currently being played, but they almost always come back to what you bought them at or higher.
What's my point exactly? I believe there are minor issues with availability of key cards in Legacy, sure, but I also believe that Legacy is growing, and for the near future I think the trend will continue. Should the RL be abolished? Right now, no. Eventually? Maybe
When Legacy is no longer a Format I think Magic as a whole will have died long before.
I think Legacy is fine as a format for the time being. If Legacy died, a gigantic number of cards in existence would be completely eliminated from any constructed format. I don't think that will happen.
With the regards to the price barrier: While I do agree that the price of entry to Legacy is much too high, I don't think all of the blame should be put on the Reserved List like it currently is. A competitive RUG Delver deck will cost you upward of $2000 to build. That's crazy. But here's the kicker: the only cards in that deck on the Reserved List are the duals, and they will run you about $600. So less than 30% of the deck's cost comes from Reserved cards. Take a look at most other Tier 1 decks and you'll find similar results.
The Reserved List isn't really the whole problem, the problem is Wizards' reluctance to reprint staples like Bob, Goyf, fetches, Force of Will, etc.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
That's a sad thought. I think one of the best things about magic is getting to leave the house an go somewhere and hang out with people.
I'd hate to think where our society would be in general 30 years from now, the US government would give "Stax Control" a run for its money.
It's an interesting concept to think about...take all the tier 1 decks and find out percentage price based on reserved cards. If it's something over 60 or 70% (or some arbitrary number) then the deck would be considered 'reserve' dominant in pricing. Edit: For decks over $1000 or something.
2nd Edit: I did a quick calculation for the top 16 of the Cincinnati Open, with exception of hightide (3 Candelabra) Reserved List cards take anywhere from 0 to roughly 30% of the total price of the decks. 3rd place stoneblade only had reserved list cards account for 24% of its list. Not too bad I'd say, there's definitely something else going on with the prices other than just the reserved list.
I still believe that for the time being, Judge promos, Special sets(comanders arsenal) are the best places to start. Why not Legacy's Arsenal? Just print FoW, Bob, Goyf, Wasteland, Thoughtsieze, and some other high dollars cards. That along with the upcoming Modern Masters would lower the price of Legacy tremendously. Honestly, a Judge Promo FoW would be nice here in the near future, I believe Modern Masters should help with legacy prices a lot. Hell, they've already confirmed Goyf. I think in the next year we will start seeing some change (better or worse) and too be honest Modern is NOT helping with legacy prices, there are several cards that have jumoed because of the addition of that format. Goyf went from around 80 to now 100-125, Thoughtsiezes went from around 25-60, Bob from 20-30 to 40-50, vendillian clique is worst of all, like 15-20 to 50 now? This is outrageous. But as business goes, the more these cards are needed the higher the price. There are many factors not being considered when it comes to Legacy's price, and the Reserve list is just an easy patsy.
Honestly, I've said this on Reddit before...but simply by removing Duals from the reserve list, would do wonders. Hell, alter it so the old art, old frame duals can never be reprinted, and only the ones from the MODO (or cube art..don't remember) can be printed in new frames...and you'll at least still have the "pimp factor" keeping the old duals at a higher price. Just like FutureShifted Frame Goyfs are going to command a premium over whatever the new Goyfs end up settling at.
Plus, it's not like they would decide to reprint the duals in a regular expansion...they've already stated the Shocklands are about as close to power of the duals they want, so they'd likely only do it in a commander product, or a Legacy Masters product...where they could keep the print run from being too excessive.
But again, it's been beaten to death and it will take someone at WoTC to do something about it. It could very well be Hasbro that's keeping it down. There was also rumours that people thought there were lawsuits filed when they reprinted the promo copies in FTV, and that WoTC made them go away by changing the RL policy to fix the "loophole". That may be the reason they nixed the snow duals in the commander product as well.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
There are a lot of people here in Oklahoma I know that play legacy. Me and a few friends are driving to the KC Starcity tourney for standard and legacy on the 23rd. I say its doing well from what I can see
I know this is anecdotal evidence, but today I went to play at a Modern event. We didn't have enough people to run it. The LGS owner said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Looks like I'm going to have to make every Saturday Legacy day. Nobody seems to want to play Modern."
So not only has this not been the only week of no attendance, but Legacy, at least at this LGS, is thriving. I've now played there for a couple months now.
Meaningless? Maybe. I don't know. I do know this much. I have more of a chance to play Legacy here than I do Modern.
So is our format at risk? I guess it depends on where you live. But certainly if Legacy is bigger here than Modern is, I'd like to think that the same is true for other parts of the world as well.
Either way, I'm sure if Legacy is truly at risk, WotC will figure it out long before we do and, if they still care, do something about it.
Until then, I'm not going to worry about it. I'm just going to play the best format that Magic has to offer.
I know this is anecdotal evidence, but today I went to play at a Modern event. We didn't have enough people to run it. The LGS owner said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Looks like I'm going to have to make every Saturday Legacy day. Nobody seems to want to play Modern."
So not only has this not been the only week of no attendance, but Legacy, at least at this LGS, is thriving. I've now played there for a couple months now.
I live in London and it's exactly the same. Wednesdays is constructed, there's mostly standard players, but also 4-12 legacy players every week. Absolutely no one is interested in Modern.
Can we even get an accurate statistic on the amount of people entering modern vs the amount of people entering legacy? Other than tournament attendance I don't see this as possible.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Just came back from 76 man Legacy tourney held by an LGS and a University gaming club.
Seems good.
Lucky for you. Where I live legacy has gone from dying to dead. Modern seems to be the hot new thing right now. There's a place that runs weekly legacy and they barely get eight people.
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Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
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Just a heads up, I'm sigging this
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
To be fair I have ended the game in Vintage in turn 1, granted I didn't win until turn 6 or so, but turn 1 Trinisphere shuts off so many decks
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
I got turn 3'd twice by Eggs at a PTQ.
I don't know why you keep acting like you have something to prove. Your arrogant attitude isn't gonna turn anyone to Modern from Legacy. Modern and Legacy are completely different and should be treated as such. With the direction that WotC is taking with Modern, it seems that Modern is going to be more of a giant Standard than Legacy lite. Not that there's anything wrong with that (I actually somewhat enjoy Modern, but it's a very underpowered format), but that means you should probably start taking your *****ing of people not playing Modern to the Standard forums.
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MTGDeckBlog - a place for me to dump my deck ideas (mostly Legacy). Some good, some bad, but mainly you decide
Or under a bridge.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the Buylisting:symb::symu::symg: BUG Tempo
:symb::symg::symw: JUNK
:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
What arguments are those exactly? I mean there are a few undeniable truths when it comes to this format that I love so much.
1. Some cards will never be reprinted.
2. That makes the card pool finite, though virtually infinite.
#2 is essentially where we have disagreements.
Some people believe that there are enough cards out there that they'll continue to be passed down and/or sold so that those who want to be able to play Legacy will always be able to do so. In other words, if you want an Underground Sea you will always be able to GET an Underground Sea.
Then there are those who believe that, yes, you will always be able to get an Underground Sea but at what price? They believe eventually, the price will be more than the average person is willing to spend. After all, how many people are willing to spend a grand on a Black Lotus. Granted, the difference in supply between that card and a dual land is great. So maybe the price never gets totally insane.
And then there are those who believe that eventually, regardless of how many cards there are, they will NOT be sold and drop out of circulation.
Some are destroyed
Some die with their owners
Some get thrown away by parents cleaning out rooms
Some are too damaged to play with
The question is, which group is right? I have no idea. I don't have a crystal ball. What I do know is this. I'm going to enjoy playing Legacy for as long as I can. There is no point in complaining about things that are out of my control. The RL isn't going away so new cards are not going to be available through reprinting. So one either spends the money to buy what he needs or plays another format. I mean what else is there?
Whatever happens, I'm not going to worry about it.
Two Saturdays ago, we have a local Legacy event where we more than doubled the attendance of the one prior. That gives me hope.
This Saturday, I'm going to another one and planning to play Dredge. I may very well get my butt kicked but don't even care. I've wanted to play this deck for so long and now I'm getting the chance to do it.
Life is good. At least for now.
I'm not saying it will happen soon, but it will happen before the cards in existence become destroyed or whatever the concern is.
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
Personally, I hope you're right. But WotC has gone on record saying that the RL isn't going away and they can't even tell us why. They'd probably have to be at the point where they're going broke in order to abolish the RL.
I just don't see it happening, as much as I would love to get a Moat without having to spend $300 on one.
Legacy is amazing and people recognize.
:symb::symu::symg: BUG Tempo
:symb::symg::symw: JUNK
:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
That's great.
I wonder how many people are from the area though?
In central Jersey there are some small legacy groups, but not a strong community I think. SCG Edison had well over 200 people but many I met drove quite a few hours to be there. I wonder if these numbers really represent legacy well per state with so many people traveling 4 plus hours for these events when they don't travel that far for weekly events at the local game shop in those same areas.
I also met people who only play legacy with their buddies but don't support the tournaments in this area. They wanted to play at SCG though.
Another two people I went with built decks just for this event and never played legacy before this. They choose modern and standard over the regular local legacy events. They aren't really supporting legacy outside of the SCG event.
I wish we had more people at our local events.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
We don't have access to that information (and likely SCG doesn't either). We just have to assume anyone within a reasonable distance away could make it. (example: 2 hr driving time)
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Second, While I agree that price of cards on the RL such as ABUR lands will continue to sky rocket, I don't agree with abolishing the RL entirely(any time in the near future). However, I would like to see them return to the old policy that allowed them to print cards off of the RL as promotional cards.
Third: Modern is not going to end Legacy. In the very begining(when modern was in testing before its official release) I loved the format, sure some things needed taken care of (caugh hypergenesis caugh), but now I feel like the amount of bannings has left the format financially unstable and I have now sold/traded all of my Shocklands and other modern staples towards legacy cards, and I know I'm not the only one. The truth is that Legacy is a great investment, sure prices change based on what decks are currently being played, but they almost always come back to what you bought them at or higher.
What's my point exactly? I believe there are minor issues with availability of key cards in Legacy, sure, but I also believe that Legacy is growing, and for the near future I think the trend will continue. Should the RL be abolished? Right now, no. Eventually? Maybe
When Legacy is no longer a Format I think Magic as a whole will have died long before.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=507824
With the regards to the price barrier: While I do agree that the price of entry to Legacy is much too high, I don't think all of the blame should be put on the Reserved List like it currently is. A competitive RUG Delver deck will cost you upward of $2000 to build. That's crazy. But here's the kicker: the only cards in that deck on the Reserved List are the duals, and they will run you about $600. So less than 30% of the deck's cost comes from Reserved cards. Take a look at most other Tier 1 decks and you'll find similar results.
The Reserved List isn't really the whole problem, the problem is Wizards' reluctance to reprint staples like Bob, Goyf, fetches, Force of Will, etc.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
That's a sad thought. I think one of the best things about magic is getting to leave the house an go somewhere and hang out with people.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I'd hate to think where our society would be in general 30 years from now, the US government would give "Stax Control" a run for its money.
It's an interesting concept to think about...take all the tier 1 decks and find out percentage price based on reserved cards. If it's something over 60 or 70% (or some arbitrary number) then the deck would be considered 'reserve' dominant in pricing. Edit: For decks over $1000 or something.
2nd Edit: I did a quick calculation for the top 16 of the Cincinnati Open, with exception of hightide (3 Candelabra) Reserved List cards take anywhere from 0 to roughly 30% of the total price of the decks. 3rd place stoneblade only had reserved list cards account for 24% of its list. Not too bad I'd say, there's definitely something else going on with the prices other than just the reserved list.
Modern: Twin URW Wilted Abzan WBG
Legacy: Stax WWW Maverick WBG
Cockatrice ID: Voltigasm
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=507824
Plus, it's not like they would decide to reprint the duals in a regular expansion...they've already stated the Shocklands are about as close to power of the duals they want, so they'd likely only do it in a commander product, or a Legacy Masters product...where they could keep the print run from being too excessive.
But again, it's been beaten to death and it will take someone at WoTC to do something about it. It could very well be Hasbro that's keeping it down. There was also rumours that people thought there were lawsuits filed when they reprinted the promo copies in FTV, and that WoTC made them go away by changing the RL policy to fix the "loophole". That may be the reason they nixed the snow duals in the commander product as well.
So not only has this not been the only week of no attendance, but Legacy, at least at this LGS, is thriving. I've now played there for a couple months now.
Meaningless? Maybe. I don't know. I do know this much. I have more of a chance to play Legacy here than I do Modern.
So is our format at risk? I guess it depends on where you live. But certainly if Legacy is bigger here than Modern is, I'd like to think that the same is true for other parts of the world as well.
Either way, I'm sure if Legacy is truly at risk, WotC will figure it out long before we do and, if they still care, do something about it.
Until then, I'm not going to worry about it. I'm just going to play the best format that Magic has to offer.
I live in London and it's exactly the same. Wednesdays is constructed, there's mostly standard players, but also 4-12 legacy players every week. Absolutely no one is interested in Modern.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Seems good.
Lucky for you. Where I live legacy has gone from dying to dead. Modern seems to be the hot new thing right now. There's a place that runs weekly legacy and they barely get eight people.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control