First off, whether it's "lazy design" or not has nothing to do with it's quality as a card.
Second off, several of the best cards in the game are examples of "lazy" design. Lightning bolt, anyone? Counterspell? (I know it's not that amazing anymore, but it was for a very long time).
Third, let's remember this card is designed for COMMANDER, not legacy. In legacy, yeah it's kind of lazy, but in commander it's anything but. It gets protection from ONE player, not from everything. It dies to basically anything by any other player, which forces those players to make a decision. Let's also realize that it's a VERY slow clock by itself in commander.
Finally, I'm pretty sure it's legacy playable. It's obviously freaking amazing carrying a sword or a jitte. It also acts as both a stabilizer and finisher in a blue-based control deck. It's good against a lot of the decks where geist is bad. I don't think it's an auto-include in every blue deck, but it'll see play.
Where in my two word post did you see me arguing that lazy = lack of quality?
I'd like to point out your failings in the arena of mind reading. I enjoyed you putting "lazy design" in quotes when no such quote exists. I called it lazy because it promotes lazy, noninteractive, boring play. Counterspell and Lightning Bolt are simple, cool, and interactive. Poor comparison. There's nothing interesting about it and it's a continuation of the trend of removing complicated thinking from new cards. Never said anything about power. Topdeck, turn sideways, ignore stack, topdeck, turn sideways, ignore stack.
Also edicts are very much a thing in the format of legacy.
Also, this doesn't have flash or give half the value of clique, so why not just run that?
Pros:
Can block forever for pure value
Forms a decent clock
Blanks quite a bit of removal
Relevant creature types for merfolk.
In conclusion: Merfolk might run this... but otherwise V-Clique is just so much better than this card, and I'm not sure many decks want to run that many 3 CMC creatures.
So probably played in one deck, but possibly in more if experimentation yields that it beats out the other 3 CMC creatures.
Also: agree on the lazy design, but to be fair the entire commander pack seems lazy as hell this year, so w/e.
I disagree. Players and creatures have always been separate. That's why Lightning Bolt reads, "3 damage to target creature or player.
As far as the card in Legacy, not sure it's any better than Geist and certainly worse than Clique. It doesn't dodge Terminus any better than Geist as well, combo players will laugh at it.
(I think it wouldn't dodge Terminus, correct me if I'm wrong. Protection from players doesn't seem to mean what I think it does.)
Geist is better at finishing a game fast, but nemesis is better at literally everything else. Geist is a terrible blocker and can only attack with an empty board unless he's equipped, and even then he's no good with a jitte until it has counters. Nemesis blocks goyf, ooze, or knight of the reliquary all day and then attacks through them later.
combo is irrelevant, as it laughs at all beaters. But this card is blue, so the deck it goes in is prepared for combo anyway.
...I can't see it in any Legacy decks though. Three is an awful lot of mana. Legacy usually rewards skimping on mana for something less absolute and then trying to overcome the "drawback".
Maybe a one of or two of in Merfolk. I can't wait to try it out.
I don't like it though. It seems very lazy, very uninteractive, and I don't understand why it's blue.
Pretty much the reason why I stop playing Legacy...I used to play mostly non-blue midrange decks (don't tell me about Death and Taxes, I know this deck exists). There's no space for them anymore :(.
Pretty much the reason why I stop playing Legacy...I used to play mostly non-blue midrange decks (don't tell me about Death and Taxes, I know this deck exists). There's no space for them anymore :(.
I can totally understand this, blue is my favorite color in magic hands down, but with the stupidly undercosted creatures its been getting, its pretty stupid.
I can totally understand this, blue is my favorite color in magic hands down, but with the stupidly undercosted creatures its been getting, its pretty stupid.
Pretty much this...and we haven't even talked about Delver, Snappy etc...It's blue or the highway it seems :-/...
Also edicts are very much a thing in the format of legacy.
Also, this doesn't have flash or give half the value of clique, so why not just run that?
Pros:
Can block forever for pure value
Forms a decent clock
Blanks quite a bit of removal
Relevant creature types for merfolk.
In conclusion: Merfolk might run this... but otherwise V-Clique is just so much better than this card, and I'm not sure many decks want to run that many 3 CMC creatures.
So probably played in one deck, but possibly in more if experimentation yields that it beats out the other 3 CMC creatures.
Also: agree on the lazy design, but to be fair the entire commander pack seems lazy as hell this year, so w/e.
Honestly, I think V-Clique is slightly overrated. It comes down too slowly, burns a lot of mana so you can't really follow up/protect it, and doesn't exactly generate card advantage. And all the decks that do run the card really only run the card as a 1-of. Maybe 2-of at most, whereas you'll see Geist be played in more aggressive numbers ranging from 2-3 easily. Potentially a full playset. Clique just doesn't see that kind of numbers anymore.
What I mean about protecting isn't so much a literal protection for the card, rather, that they have an opening for you to cast; if you look at their hand and realize Clique isn't enough to prevent them from combo'ing off or playing another relevant spell, you probably won't have any mana left over to use to make a follow-up play. That's what I've found in testing at least.
Against combo decks, its ability is definitely stronger than in non-combo match-ups, but there've been so many times when I'd cast it, only to find out that they'd just have extra pieces ready and go off -- because I'm now tapped out/don't have enough mana for multiple counter wars.
On top of that, the draw after tucking a card always kinda bothers me; it's just not a raw +1, which I wouldn't find as bothersome if it wasn't for the fact that it's a 3-drop. The card they draw could very well help them dig into another piece, or worse yet, they brainstormed the pieces on top of their deck and you either tuck an irrelevant card and let them draw their piece or just derpily look at their hand doing nothing.*
*sidenote: there's definitely a way to take advantage of that brainstorm-in-response-to-hide-cards, but it's tricky to do, so I won't go into it.
Against non-combo decks, I always find that the card is much weaker here, as whenever I strip them of their best play, they just play their second best move, which isn't too far behind the first best. Clique being 3 power, evasive, and flash is sweet. And the ability is hella sexy, but the 1 toughness makes it harder to utilize; decks that run Clique tend to be decks on the defensive, which means oftentimes their creatures are just straight better than ours or is in larger numbers. Ex: Playing Clique against Goblins is kinda weird in that its best use is after Goblins use Matron to fetch Ringleader (awesome way to prevent them from casting it), but outside of that, it really doesn't do anything in this match-up. Nor does it really do much better against say, RUG, where a Forked Bolt can potentially 2-for-1.
Tl;dr: Ugh, Nemesis doesn't necessarily address all the issues with Clique (my...personal issues :rolleyes:), but I feel like 1) A direct comparison between the two is incorrect -- even if only abstractly looking at their respective places on the curve (3-drop) 2) Clique's ability...is slightly overrated. It has been at best "cool" and at worst mildly disappointing.
Geist is better at finishing a game fast, but nemesis is better at literally everything else. Geist is a terrible blocker and can only attack with an empty board unless he's equipped, and even then he's no good with a jitte until it has counters. Nemesis blocks goyf, ooze, or knight of the reliquary all day and then attacks through them later.
combo is irrelevant, as it laughs at all beaters. But this card is blue, so the deck it goes in is prepared for combo anyway.
Yeah, I'm in the same line of thinking here. Geist would potentially be better against combo in that it closes games twice as fast, whereas Nemesis being slower could mean an extra few turns that a combo player gets to potentially go off.
That said, Nemesis honestly seems like it's the better card when it comes to everything else. Can't be chump blocked and can actually block favorably, which is actually really relevant, as those are the two primary weaknesses of Geist. You couldn't play Geist in the main in something like Stoneblade without altering your list greatly into something more along the lines of RUG, because Geist doesn't impact the board, when staring down a number of enemy creatures. Like, if you dropped Geist, you really can't use Geist to block. He's just there deployed...waiting for you to give him an opening to for him to strike (he's still amazing for sure). You can play Nemesis and know that he's nigh-immovable.
Geist also requires U/W to cast, whereas Nemesis only requires U (double U so it's a little more blue intensive, but not requiring white means potentially more splashability).
On top of that, Nemesis having a 3 power means it has more things it can kill (potentially), and the 1 toughness is irrelevant due to protection. Think the only thing that screws with the 1 toughness is Zealous Persecution and Engineered Plague. Or that 1BB Sorcery -2/-2 to everything (forgot the name). But that's it.
Yes, Edict effects Wrath effects and Terminus effects are things, but I'm not convinced that they're run as much as people are saying they're run. Wrath effects in the form of Supreme Verdict is pretty much only in Stoneblade variants (and even in those builds, at 1 at most -- some even opting to drop it altogether as it's too slow). Terminus, as far as I know, is only in one deck -- U/W Miracle Top. But yeah, it's a strike against this card.
Edict...I really don't feel as prevalent as people say. I know Liliana of the Veil is a thing, but from what I've seen it's only run in Shardless BUG and BUG control (which conveniently also has access to Pernicious Deed), and Pox decks. Yes they're all popular decks, but for Edicts, it isn't impossibly hard to play around, like having another creature or two to sac instead. What I'm trying to say is Edict =/= Nemesis being weaker.
Pernicious is a powerful answer to this card, but I think it falls under the same vein as Verdict and Engineered Explosives in that it's not really something that's mained in large quantities, and it requires hefty mana investments.
Tl;dr: I wouldn't dismiss this card; this card is at the very least on par with Geist of Saint Traft in that it's highly uninteractive and highly difficult to remove off the board. Maybe slightly better, maybe slightly worse in context, but it's definitely a card to watch out for.
Maybe a one of or two of in Merfolk. I can't wait to try it out.
Yeah, looks pretty scary there. Don't think it'll be the thing that carries Merfolk all the way, but boy does it know how to put the last few nails into the coffin.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
This isn't griselbrand or emrakrul were talking about, and this is the wrong place to be bashing blue.
start a new thread if you have a bone to pick and please leave this thread for SCD
No its valid. The card is strong. Its actually unbelievably strong, and its difficult to gauge it because its unique. It probably replaces GOST in many decks, and deserves testing in Merfolk.
That doesn't mean it isn't unfun. It doesn't really make sense, and I am expecting it to warp the format. Not like Misstep did, but I expect its going to be something you need to gameplan for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Honestly, I think V-Clique is slightly overrated. It comes down too slowly, burns a lot of mana so you can't really follow up/protect it, and doesn't exactly generate card advantage. And all the decks that do run the card really only run the card as a 1-of. Maybe 2-of at most, whereas you'll see Geist be played in more aggressive numbers ranging from 2-3 easily. Potentially a full playset. Clique just doesn't see that kind of numbers anymore.
What I mean about protecting isn't so much a literal protection for the card, rather, that they have an opening for you to cast; if you look at their hand and realize Clique isn't enough to prevent them from combo'ing off or playing another relevant spell, you probably won't have any mana left over to use to make a follow-up play. That's what I've found in testing at least.
Against combo decks, its ability is definitely stronger than in non-combo match-ups, but there've been so many times when I'd cast it, only to find out that they'd just have extra pieces ready and go off -- because I'm now tapped out/don't have enough mana for multiple counter wars.
On top of that, the draw after tucking a card always kinda bothers me; it's just not a raw +1, which I wouldn't find as bothersome if it wasn't for the fact that it's a 3-drop. The card they draw could very well help them dig into another piece, or worse yet, they brainstormed the pieces on top of their deck and you either tuck an irrelevant card and let them draw their piece or just derpily look at their hand doing nothing.*
*sidenote: there's definitely a way to take advantage of that brainstorm-in-response-to-hide-cards, but it's tricky to do, so I won't go into it.
Against non-combo decks, I always find that the card is much weaker here, as whenever I strip them of their best play, they just play their second best move, which isn't too far behind the first best. Clique being 3 power, evasive, and flash is sweet. And the ability is hella sexy, but the 1 toughness makes it harder to utilize; decks that run Clique tend to be decks on the defensive, which means oftentimes their creatures are just straight better than ours or is in larger numbers. Ex: Playing Clique against Goblins is kinda weird in that its best use is after Goblins use Matron to fetch Ringleader (awesome way to prevent them from casting it), but outside of that, it really doesn't do anything in this match-up. Nor does it really do much better against say, RUG, where a Forked Bolt can potentially 2-for-1.
Tl;dr: Ugh, Nemesis doesn't necessarily address all the issues with Clique (my...personal issues :rolleyes:), but I feel like 1) A direct comparison between the two is incorrect -- even if only abstractly looking at their respective places on the curve (3-drop) 2) Clique's ability...is slightly overrated. It has been at best "cool" and at worst mildly disappointing.
A comparison is totally necessary, as they are both blue three drops, so you're going to have to likely choose one or the other. I do believe that anywhere you would play clique you would NEVER replace it with this guy.
Geist, on the other hand...
After some thought I can see the value of this card in stoneblade, but I'm not sure I'd rather not just have geist for the pure damage dealing potential.
It's undoubtedly good, but at the end of the day, is it better than what else you could put in the spot? Because that is honestly the ONLY thing that matters about whether it will be played or not.
The real question is, what matchup does this card actually solve? It's at its best against GBx midrange decks that rely on spot removal and incremental card advantage, since it's a Maze of Ith and a Creeping Tar Pit at the same time. But those decks have Liliana and Golgari Charm. It's virtually vanilla against Miracles and most combo decks. I guess it's insane against Death and Taxes?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
The real question is, what matchup does this card actually solve? It's at its best against GBx midrange decks that rely on spot removal and incremental card advantage, since it's a Maze of Ith and a Creeping Tar Pit at the same time. But those decks have Liliana and Golgari Charm. It's virtually vanilla against Miracles and most combo decks. I guess it's insane against Death and Taxes?
Either way Merfolk has just gone up a notch. I don't think Liliana and Golgari Charm are good answers against this card, just having another lord in play will render Golgari Charm useless, while having just another creature in play means someone other Merfolk will be sacrificed.
The real question is, what matchup does this card actually solve? It's at its best against GBx midrange decks that rely on spot removal and incremental card advantage, since it's a Maze of Ith and a Creeping Tar Pit at the same time. But those decks have Liliana and Golgari Charm. It's virtually vanilla against Miracles and most combo decks. I guess it's insane against Death and Taxes?
*punishing fire mid range*cough cough. Miracles and combo decks are already positive match-ups with the standard merfolk game plan.
That being said, there aren't many other applications - but as these decks are vastly non-blue, seems relevant as it gives reach. Relevant - not broken.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
...I can't see it in any Legacy decks though. Three is an awful lot of mana. Legacy usually rewards skimping on mana for something less absolute and then trying to overcome the "drawback".
WHat Legacy rewards is value. 3 is a fair amount of mana but it's not too much for Legacy as long as it's a value card. Lots of Legacy cards occupy that spot on the curve--Geist, Goblin Matron, Vendilion Clique, Show & Tell, etc.--and lots of Legacy strategies revolve around generating the same effect as this card using multiple cards (such as setting up a Delver flip using a cantrip), making this a very viable card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar!
Nai elyë hiruva! Namárië!
Exactly. Speaking as a maverick (black splash) player, this card would be terrifying to see in a merfolk, stoneblade, or blue-based control deck, all of which are matchups that I can often win by clogging the board, but not quickly.
Merfolk shouldn't be unblockable against me because I don't run blue and can sac whatever has spreading seas on it to knight. This guy goes right through, and I can't put him in a maze or block with scryb or take him out with jitte. stoneblade/blue control matches are SLOOOOOW, and this guy will likely kill me while before we'd be board stalled. I could even see this card in the board of a delver deck depending on your meta. I could bring zealous persecution, golgari charm, or engineered plague in post-board, but those aren't really cards I would bring in vs. merfolk or stoneblade normally, so it's probably not worth it, and it's the wrong creature type to hit vs. delver.
while the card isn't nearly as good vs. jund, nic-fit, ect, it's still hard for them to deal with because the only answers they have are to strip it from your hand early or liliana, and those decks don't have a lot of life cushion.
On the other hand, my pox deck with liliana, smallpox, innocent blood, inquisition of kozilek, hymn to tourach, and lots of landkill doesn't much care.
A comparison is totally necessary, as they are both blue three drops, so you're going to have to likely choose one or the other. I do believe that anywhere you would play clique you would NEVER replace it with this guy.
Geist, on the other hand...
After some thought I can see the value of this card in stoneblade, but I'm not sure I'd rather not just have geist for the pure damage dealing potential.
It's undoubtedly good, but at the end of the day, is it better than what else you could put in the spot? Because that is honestly the ONLY thing that matters about whether it will be played or not.
And that's exactly my point about not comparing the two. They're different and serve different purposes. You'd never slot out Clique for Geist because one is just straight up better than the other. Rather, you choose one or the other depending on your deck's game plan. In a control shell, maybe Clique is the right card. But if you were to look at any UWR Delver list, Geist is at the forefront because he does best what the deck wants to do.
If it's to continually play with mana open and more reactive, then go with Clique. But if it's to put a dude on board that blanks spot removal and can close out a game, then go with Geist.
Geist vs. Nemesis...just depends on what you want. In Stoneblade, I'd want Geist if I'm playing against combo, because it just kills faster, while Nemesis would be too slow -- protection be damned!* But against everything else, it can be a bit lackluster. Geist vs. creatures tends to go poorly for Geist (him having 2 toughness isn't terrible, so he can survive certain creatures, but losing him in a block trade kinda botches his true purpose), because you'll tap for him, then just...sit there with him while your opponent beats in for damage. He'll sit there until you put in the work to clear creatures or find an opening for him to swing.
He's not the worst of blockers, but with Nemesis I can drop him and flat-out wall creatures, while still presenting an inevitable clock...sometime down the road once I gain control of the board. Slower sure, but in a deck like Stoneblade, I don't actually mind taking a few extra turns to close out, especially with a creature that's even harder to remove. Bottom line is that I like the added options.
*Sidenote: I know that an argument can be made with how Clique is also good against combo, and bad against creatures just like Geist. But in both situations, IMO, I honestly would prefer Geist.
Yeah, I guess that's ultimately what matters. If a card is merely a different iteration of an older card, then it might just get shoved to the sidelines as a card that was, "Close, but no dice."
The real question is, what matchup does this card actually solve? It's at its best against GBx midrange decks that rely on spot removal and incremental card advantage, since it's a Maze of Ith and a Creeping Tar Pit at the same time. But those decks have Liliana and Golgari Charm. It's virtually vanilla against Miracles and most combo decks. I guess it's insane against Death and Taxes?
This card will change little to nothing in legacy even in merfolk.
It is likely playable but so what it is not going to make merfolk much better than what the deck already is.
It costs 3 mana and does nothing really the turn it comes into play. In merfolk it probably requires the vials to tick up to 3 which is not very good thing to do considering 90% of their creatures cost 2.
If Vialed in it is not going to attack before turn 5 and excuse me if you can't deal with a 3dmg per turn clock from turn 5 on.
It is a good card and annoying to interact with but it is hardly game changing.
How does that help your argument here? This card is just as slow as Clique and has no flash. Clique immediately does something, lets you see the whole hand and remove the best card if you want to or it can let you cycle your worst card.
Vendillion Clique on its own is a much better card that Geist of Saint Traft. The only reason you don't see Clique as a 4of is because it is best in control decks that run very very few creatures.
My response was to a poster whose saying that Clique is just much better, which I just don't necessarily agree with.
Sidenote: I fundamentally don't think Clique's ability is as good as people are touting, but at this point, I think it's a matter of personal preference/play-style. Combo will just find its combo piece, as VClique only manages to stall it and is slower to close out --> giving combo more time...against everything else, it dies to block even more easily and can even die harder to spot removal, etc. etc.. Idk, I've personally never been particularly satisfied playing the card. But that's an argument for another day.
I don't think the two can really be compared and as such don't think that Clique is just straight up better than Geist nor Nemesis. Clique is a disrupter, whereas Geist and Nemesis are finishers. They more or less go into different decks (there's a bit of an overlap, but that's pretty much all of legacy) and they serve different roles.
A better comparison would be Nemesis vs. Geist. Geist is a do-nothing card the turn it lands, yet it's still a very successful card in Legacy because it's difficult to remove, which allows it to close out games reliably. Is Geist turning the meta on its head? No, but it sure is solid. Nemesis has more or less the same qualities as Geist, and as such, I don't see why Nemesis can't have the same potential
I'm not saying Nemesis is OP or BORKED!! Rather, I don't think it should be dismissed. In any deck that can run Geist, we now have another option to run Nemesis instead. Cuz IMO this is Geist but in a different flavor.
*punishing fire mid range*cough cough. Miracles and combo decks are already positive match-ups with the standard merfolk game plan.
That being said, there aren't many other applications - but as these decks are vastly non-blue, seems relevant as it gives reach. Relevant - not broken.
I agree with this sentiment. Relevant. Very relevant (well, technically depends on meta), but not broken.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
The reason clique is toted so highly is that it's MonoU hand disruption on a clock. It's something U shouldn't have and does (like most good blue cards) so it's highly prized. For instance, look at Tidehollow Sculler. Non legendary, easier to cast, cheaper to cast, harder to kill.
The difference is that Clique is blue and that Tidehollow is in black. Were Sculler in R/U it'd be way more expensive/used because it'd do something that the color can't already do.
Anyway, I think that this will be unlikely to be seen in Stoneblade. It's basically a hard to land batterskull with no life-gain. Merfolk and Delvers will probably like it, but only if they like Geist already.
The reason clique is toted so highly is that it's MonoU hand disruption on a clock. It's something U shouldn't have and does (like most good blue cards) so it's highly prized. For instance, look at Tidehollow Sculler. Non legendary, easier to cast, cheaper to cast, harder to kill.
The difference is that Clique is blue and that Tidehollow is in black. Were Sculler in R/U it'd be way more expensive/used because it'd do something that the color can't already do.
Anyway, I think that this will be unlikely to be seen in Stoneblade. It's basically a hard to land batterskull with no life-gain. Merfolk and Delvers will probably like it, but only if they like Geist already.
Flying, 3 power vs. 2 power, and Flash don't matter against combo really.
QED
If we're arguing vs. fair decks, they're both exceptional at being mediocre. They both die to literally any kill spell in the format and to nearly any blocker in the format. Yeah, Clique can fly over Tier 2 decks like a pro; but otherwise it's just going to trade with.. Mongoose or Delver while your deck plays catch-up.
Tidehollow is mediocre because black has better options.
Clique is good because blue has no other options.
Flying, 3 power vs. 2 power, and Flash don't matter against combo really.
QED
If we're arguing vs. fair decks, they're both exceptional at being mediocre. They both die to literally any kill spell in the format and to nearly any blocker in the format. Yeah, Clique can fly over Tier 2 decks like a pro; but otherwise it's just going to trade with.. Mongoose or Delver while your deck plays catch-up.
Tidehollow is mediocre because black has better options.
Clique is good because blue has no other options.
Is every Esper Stoneblade / Deathblade deck that plays Vendilion Clique doing it wrong given that you think Tidehollow Sculler is just better?
Flying, 3 power vs. 2 power, and Flash don't matter against combo really.
QED
If we're arguing vs. fair decks, they're both exceptional at being mediocre. They both die to literally any kill spell in the format and to nearly any blocker in the format. Yeah, Clique can fly over Tier 2 decks like a pro; but otherwise it's just going to trade with.. Mongoose or Delver while your deck plays catch-up.
Tidehollow is mediocre because black has better options.
Clique is good because blue has no other options.
I think you're putting it "too simply," and as such, I don't necessarily agree with all of this post. Yeah, the 3 vs. 2 power and the flying is kinda moot vs. Combo, but the Flash shouldn't be overlooked.
And I wouldn't necessarily say VClique is only good because it's blue, nor would I say that Sculler is better than Clique (Sculler is awesome though).
But I agree with you on one front; they really are pretty mediocre against fair decks.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Where in my two word post did you see me arguing that lazy = lack of quality?
I'd like to point out your failings in the arena of mind reading. I enjoyed you putting "lazy design" in quotes when no such quote exists. I called it lazy because it promotes lazy, noninteractive, boring play. Counterspell and Lightning Bolt are simple, cool, and interactive. Poor comparison. There's nothing interesting about it and it's a continuation of the trend of removing complicated thinking from new cards. Never said anything about power. Topdeck, turn sideways, ignore stack, topdeck, turn sideways, ignore stack.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Three mana is an awful lot of mana.
Also edicts are very much a thing in the format of legacy.
Also, this doesn't have flash or give half the value of clique, so why not just run that?
Pros:
Can block forever for pure value
Forms a decent clock
Blanks quite a bit of removal
Relevant creature types for merfolk.
In conclusion: Merfolk might run this... but otherwise V-Clique is just so much better than this card, and I'm not sure many decks want to run that many 3 CMC creatures.
So probably played in one deck, but possibly in more if experimentation yields that it beats out the other 3 CMC creatures.
Also: agree on the lazy design, but to be fair the entire commander pack seems lazy as hell this year, so w/e.
Geist is better at finishing a game fast, but nemesis is better at literally everything else. Geist is a terrible blocker and can only attack with an empty board unless he's equipped, and even then he's no good with a jitte until it has counters. Nemesis blocks goyf, ooze, or knight of the reliquary all day and then attacks through them later.
combo is irrelevant, as it laughs at all beaters. But this card is blue, so the deck it goes in is prepared for combo anyway.
Maybe a one of or two of in Merfolk. I can't wait to try it out.
Pretty much the reason why I stop playing Legacy...I used to play mostly non-blue midrange decks (don't tell me about Death and Taxes, I know this deck exists). There's no space for them anymore :(.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I can totally understand this, blue is my favorite color in magic hands down, but with the stupidly undercosted creatures its been getting, its pretty stupid.
Pretty much this...and we haven't even talked about Delver, Snappy etc...It's blue or the highway it seems :-/...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
This isn't griselbrand or emrakrul were talking about, and this is the wrong place to be bashing blue.
start a new thread if you have a bone to pick and please leave this thread for SCD
Honestly, I think V-Clique is slightly overrated. It comes down too slowly, burns a lot of mana so you can't really follow up/protect it, and doesn't exactly generate card advantage. And all the decks that do run the card really only run the card as a 1-of. Maybe 2-of at most, whereas you'll see Geist be played in more aggressive numbers ranging from 2-3 easily. Potentially a full playset. Clique just doesn't see that kind of numbers anymore.
What I mean about protecting isn't so much a literal protection for the card, rather, that they have an opening for you to cast; if you look at their hand and realize Clique isn't enough to prevent them from combo'ing off or playing another relevant spell, you probably won't have any mana left over to use to make a follow-up play. That's what I've found in testing at least.
Against combo decks, its ability is definitely stronger than in non-combo match-ups, but there've been so many times when I'd cast it, only to find out that they'd just have extra pieces ready and go off -- because I'm now tapped out/don't have enough mana for multiple counter wars.
On top of that, the draw after tucking a card always kinda bothers me; it's just not a raw +1, which I wouldn't find as bothersome if it wasn't for the fact that it's a 3-drop. The card they draw could very well help them dig into another piece, or worse yet, they brainstormed the pieces on top of their deck and you either tuck an irrelevant card and let them draw their piece or just derpily look at their hand doing nothing.*
*sidenote: there's definitely a way to take advantage of that brainstorm-in-response-to-hide-cards, but it's tricky to do, so I won't go into it.
Against non-combo decks, I always find that the card is much weaker here, as whenever I strip them of their best play, they just play their second best move, which isn't too far behind the first best. Clique being 3 power, evasive, and flash is sweet. And the ability is hella sexy, but the 1 toughness makes it harder to utilize; decks that run Clique tend to be decks on the defensive, which means oftentimes their creatures are just straight better than ours or is in larger numbers. Ex: Playing Clique against Goblins is kinda weird in that its best use is after Goblins use Matron to fetch Ringleader (awesome way to prevent them from casting it), but outside of that, it really doesn't do anything in this match-up. Nor does it really do much better against say, RUG, where a Forked Bolt can potentially 2-for-1.
Tl;dr: Ugh, Nemesis doesn't necessarily address all the issues with Clique (my...personal issues :rolleyes:), but I feel like 1) A direct comparison between the two is incorrect -- even if only abstractly looking at their respective places on the curve (3-drop) 2) Clique's ability...is slightly overrated. It has been at best "cool" and at worst mildly disappointing.
Yeah, I'm in the same line of thinking here. Geist would potentially be better against combo in that it closes games twice as fast, whereas Nemesis being slower could mean an extra few turns that a combo player gets to potentially go off.
That said, Nemesis honestly seems like it's the better card when it comes to everything else. Can't be chump blocked and can actually block favorably, which is actually really relevant, as those are the two primary weaknesses of Geist. You couldn't play Geist in the main in something like Stoneblade without altering your list greatly into something more along the lines of RUG, because Geist doesn't impact the board, when staring down a number of enemy creatures. Like, if you dropped Geist, you really can't use Geist to block. He's just there deployed...waiting for you to give him an opening to for him to strike (he's still amazing for sure). You can play Nemesis and know that he's nigh-immovable.
Geist also requires U/W to cast, whereas Nemesis only requires U (double U so it's a little more blue intensive, but not requiring white means potentially more splashability).
On top of that, Nemesis having a 3 power means it has more things it can kill (potentially), and the 1 toughness is irrelevant due to protection. Think the only thing that screws with the 1 toughness is Zealous Persecution and Engineered Plague. Or that 1BB Sorcery -2/-2 to everything (forgot the name). But that's it.
Yes, Edict effects Wrath effects and Terminus effects are things, but I'm not convinced that they're run as much as people are saying they're run. Wrath effects in the form of Supreme Verdict is pretty much only in Stoneblade variants (and even in those builds, at 1 at most -- some even opting to drop it altogether as it's too slow). Terminus, as far as I know, is only in one deck -- U/W Miracle Top. But yeah, it's a strike against this card.
Edict...I really don't feel as prevalent as people say. I know Liliana of the Veil is a thing, but from what I've seen it's only run in Shardless BUG and BUG control (which conveniently also has access to Pernicious Deed), and Pox decks. Yes they're all popular decks, but for Edicts, it isn't impossibly hard to play around, like having another creature or two to sac instead. What I'm trying to say is Edict =/= Nemesis being weaker.
Pernicious is a powerful answer to this card, but I think it falls under the same vein as Verdict and Engineered Explosives in that it's not really something that's mained in large quantities, and it requires hefty mana investments.
Tl;dr: I wouldn't dismiss this card; this card is at the very least on par with Geist of Saint Traft in that it's highly uninteractive and highly difficult to remove off the board. Maybe slightly better, maybe slightly worse in context, but it's definitely a card to watch out for.
*crosses fingers*
Yeah, looks pretty scary there. Don't think it'll be the thing that carries Merfolk all the way, but boy does it know how to put the last few nails into the coffin.
No its valid. The card is strong. Its actually unbelievably strong, and its difficult to gauge it because its unique. It probably replaces GOST in many decks, and deserves testing in Merfolk.
That doesn't mean it isn't unfun. It doesn't really make sense, and I am expecting it to warp the format. Not like Misstep did, but I expect its going to be something you need to gameplan for.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I will say that "protection from chosen player" may just be the most poorly designed mechanic to ever be printed on a legal magic card.
It sounds like something out of an Un set.
A comparison is totally necessary, as they are both blue three drops, so you're going to have to likely choose one or the other. I do believe that anywhere you would play clique you would NEVER replace it with this guy.
Geist, on the other hand...
After some thought I can see the value of this card in stoneblade, but I'm not sure I'd rather not just have geist for the pure damage dealing potential.
It's undoubtedly good, but at the end of the day, is it better than what else you could put in the spot? Because that is honestly the ONLY thing that matters about whether it will be played or not.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Either way Merfolk has just gone up a notch. I don't think Liliana and Golgari Charm are good answers against this card, just having another lord in play will render Golgari Charm useless, while having just another creature in play means someone other Merfolk will be sacrificed.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
*punishing fire mid range*cough cough. Miracles and combo decks are already positive match-ups with the standard merfolk game plan.
That being said, there aren't many other applications - but as these decks are vastly non-blue, seems relevant as it gives reach. Relevant - not broken.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
WHat Legacy rewards is value. 3 is a fair amount of mana but it's not too much for Legacy as long as it's a value card. Lots of Legacy cards occupy that spot on the curve--Geist, Goblin Matron, Vendilion Clique, Show & Tell, etc.--and lots of Legacy strategies revolve around generating the same effect as this card using multiple cards (such as setting up a Delver flip using a cantrip), making this a very viable card.
Nai elyë hiruva! Namárië!
Exactly. Speaking as a maverick (black splash) player, this card would be terrifying to see in a merfolk, stoneblade, or blue-based control deck, all of which are matchups that I can often win by clogging the board, but not quickly.
Merfolk shouldn't be unblockable against me because I don't run blue and can sac whatever has spreading seas on it to knight. This guy goes right through, and I can't put him in a maze or block with scryb or take him out with jitte. stoneblade/blue control matches are SLOOOOOW, and this guy will likely kill me while before we'd be board stalled. I could even see this card in the board of a delver deck depending on your meta. I could bring zealous persecution, golgari charm, or engineered plague in post-board, but those aren't really cards I would bring in vs. merfolk or stoneblade normally, so it's probably not worth it, and it's the wrong creature type to hit vs. delver.
while the card isn't nearly as good vs. jund, nic-fit, ect, it's still hard for them to deal with because the only answers they have are to strip it from your hand early or liliana, and those decks don't have a lot of life cushion.
On the other hand, my pox deck with liliana, smallpox, innocent blood, inquisition of kozilek, hymn to tourach, and lots of landkill doesn't much care.
And that's exactly my point about not comparing the two. They're different and serve different purposes. You'd never slot out Clique for Geist because one is just straight up better than the other. Rather, you choose one or the other depending on your deck's game plan. In a control shell, maybe Clique is the right card. But if you were to look at any UWR Delver list, Geist is at the forefront because he does best what the deck wants to do.
If it's to continually play with mana open and more reactive, then go with Clique. But if it's to put a dude on board that blanks spot removal and can close out a game, then go with Geist.
Geist vs. Nemesis...just depends on what you want. In Stoneblade, I'd want Geist if I'm playing against combo, because it just kills faster, while Nemesis would be too slow -- protection be damned!* But against everything else, it can be a bit lackluster. Geist vs. creatures tends to go poorly for Geist (him having 2 toughness isn't terrible, so he can survive certain creatures, but losing him in a block trade kinda botches his true purpose), because you'll tap for him, then just...sit there with him while your opponent beats in for damage. He'll sit there until you put in the work to clear creatures or find an opening for him to swing.
He's not the worst of blockers, but with Nemesis I can drop him and flat-out wall creatures, while still presenting an inevitable clock...sometime down the road once I gain control of the board. Slower sure, but in a deck like Stoneblade, I don't actually mind taking a few extra turns to close out, especially with a creature that's even harder to remove. Bottom line is that I like the added options.
*Sidenote: I know that an argument can be made with how Clique is also good against combo, and bad against creatures just like Geist. But in both situations, IMO, I honestly would prefer Geist.
Yeah, I guess that's ultimately what matters. If a card is merely a different iteration of an older card, then it might just get shoved to the sidelines as a card that was, "Close, but no dice."
It'll at the very least have its niche uses.
My response was to a poster whose saying that Clique is just much better, which I just don't necessarily agree with.
Sidenote: I fundamentally don't think Clique's ability is as good as people are touting, but at this point, I think it's a matter of personal preference/play-style. Combo will just find its combo piece, as VClique only manages to stall it and is slower to close out --> giving combo more time...against everything else, it dies to block even more easily and can even die harder to spot removal, etc. etc.. Idk, I've personally never been particularly satisfied playing the card. But that's an argument for another day.
I don't think the two can really be compared and as such don't think that Clique is just straight up better than Geist nor Nemesis. Clique is a disrupter, whereas Geist and Nemesis are finishers. They more or less go into different decks (there's a bit of an overlap, but that's pretty much all of legacy) and they serve different roles.
A better comparison would be Nemesis vs. Geist. Geist is a do-nothing card the turn it lands, yet it's still a very successful card in Legacy because it's difficult to remove, which allows it to close out games reliably. Is Geist turning the meta on its head? No, but it sure is solid. Nemesis has more or less the same qualities as Geist, and as such, I don't see why Nemesis can't have the same potential
I'm not saying Nemesis is OP or BORKED!! Rather, I don't think it should be dismissed. In any deck that can run Geist, we now have another option to run Nemesis instead. Cuz IMO this is Geist but in a different flavor.
I agree with this sentiment. Relevant. Very relevant (well, technically depends on meta), but not broken.
The difference is that Clique is blue and that Tidehollow is in black. Were Sculler in R/U it'd be way more expensive/used because it'd do something that the color can't already do.
Anyway, I think that this will be unlikely to be seen in Stoneblade. It's basically a hard to land batterskull with no life-gain. Merfolk and Delvers will probably like it, but only if they like Geist already.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Wait... did you just compare Tidehollow Sculler to Vendilion Clique and managed to find upsides in the sculler?
Clique has 3 power, evasion and instant speed hand disrupt that won't come back when it dies....
on blue....
if it was on black with a BBB casting cost, it would still trump Tidehollow Sculler for free.
QED
If we're arguing vs. fair decks, they're both exceptional at being mediocre. They both die to literally any kill spell in the format and to nearly any blocker in the format. Yeah, Clique can fly over Tier 2 decks like a pro; but otherwise it's just going to trade with.. Mongoose or Delver while your deck plays catch-up.
Tidehollow is mediocre because black has better options.
Clique is good because blue has no other options.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Is every Esper Stoneblade / Deathblade deck that plays Vendilion Clique doing it wrong given that you think Tidehollow Sculler is just better?
I think you're putting it "too simply," and as such, I don't necessarily agree with all of this post. Yeah, the 3 vs. 2 power and the flying is kinda moot vs. Combo, but the Flash shouldn't be overlooked.
And I wouldn't necessarily say VClique is only good because it's blue, nor would I say that Sculler is better than Clique (Sculler is awesome though).
But I agree with you on one front; they really are pretty mediocre against fair decks.
The card is very good, especially paired with SFM and swords and will see play in Legacy, no doubt, typically in UW decks.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener