Hey guys, I'm the kind of guy who's into statistics and lists. So one of the main reasons I got into modern and delved into it's metagame was because I saw the wonderful modern tier system set up. You can easily find what decks are ranked like what, you get to see them change every month as the meta does, and it's quite interesting to watch and observe. It would be cool to have something like that for these subforums, as while the deck-type based ones work okay, it always feels a bit awkward to have tier 1 decks in the same section as very outdated tier 4 ones. I'm proposing this subforum adapts to the tier system based on the modern forum. Maybe it wouldn't be updated every month, as that's a lot of work and the legacy meta doesn't change that much, but it would be cool to see for players that don't know that much about legacy, and would help people pick a good deck for them. Maybe something like this?
There is actually currently an ongoing discussion about some changes to the format layout, including this, here. There is a big difference in the way that tiers in Legacy work from Modern though, insofar as outside of the current top decks, almost anything is viable up to play skill. In 2015 so far, 6 decks have more than 5% of the top 8 slots each, while another 19 different decks fall between 1 and 4% of the top 8s. But yes, this is a current topic of disucssion.
There is actually currently an ongoing discussion about some changes to the format layout, including this, here. There is a big difference in the way that tiers in Legacy work from Modern though, insofar as outside of the current top decks, almost anything is viable up to play skill. In 2015 so far, 6 decks have more than 5% of the top 8 slots each, while another 19 different decks fall between 1 and 4% of the top 8s. But yes, this is a current topic of disucssion.
Basically this.
The lines for "tiers" are blurred in Legacy. Player skill and knowledge accounts for a lot. Hell, in the recent events, some fringe decks that nobody has heard of have been placing well.
I agree tiers are nonsense in a skill format like Legacy, outside of predicting what you see at a 150 player SCG type event or a GP where there is some validity.
European metas are completely different to US ones again, especially where the players are not pros and the prizes not huge. Most events where Legacy is played tend to be local level 15 player events or FNM to "win a dual" type things with maybe 40 players. People don't change their Legacy decks very often due to prices, most people can't say, "Oh Sneak and Show is weak of late, I will play Lands today." A reasonably high number of medium size events don't get reported on Mtg Top 8 (though it is better of late), and when you look at some of the decks that do well its pretty clear there is even more diversity than we acknowledge, and card availability will affect what you see- a 40 player event here will have burn and affinity regardless of what tier they are in, and there will be as many of each as Miracles. So how does the tier help me? My gauntlet has to be what I will face.
A tier one Omnitell deck might turn up at your local event, be piloted perfectly well and still go 0-4 playing nothing but fringe decks. That is simply unlikely with Modern and near impossible with standard.
Additionally a good number of fringe deck decks, especially non blue ones (yes, they do exist) get a hell of a lot better if you are in a local environment and have an idea of who is on what, making the whole tier thing rather less important. Your tier one Omnitell or Miracles deck looks a lot less tier one if everyone knows they are there and knows who is playing it and builds their decks accordingly.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
That is certainly very true. We control draws more, its more skill intensive, mistakes rather than matchups often matter most. The lopsided matches seem to be a feature of Modern don't seem to feature much in Legacy. Legacy lacks those matches because most decks have the tools to do the job on a specific meta. Its only when people start playing fun/gambling decks like Belcher/Leylines do those horribly lopsided matches happen (normally because they run into FOW decks). Often a dodgy match up can be fixed with tiny amount of tinkering because we can all use card selection to get silver bullets.
A lot of other fringe deck choices that you would say are tier 3 often are only fringe because of the time they often take (for no advantage in results terms) or the amount of money required to make what is only going to be a moderately successful deck (play a prison deck with 3 tabernacles and it will set you back a huge amount for of cash no results gain compared to you just sleeving up a solid deck like Merfolk, for example). You can still turn up to events and see them taken down by long since dead decks, whilst decks recycle and morph. If the meta, local or otherwise gets too much one way then things change to cope more often than not, even if that means obscure decks like trini-choke running main deck Chokes.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Basically, learning one deck inside and out is really powerful advantage that can't be duplicated easily. It is also a format thing though. You need to know what to play around and if you run a card like cabal therapy, you have to know what your opponent's gameplan is and what is the critical linchpin. Its not about knowing the top 8 or whatever, legacy is so diverse anything literally could show up from enchantress to storm to tezzerator to reanimator.
I've had games won or lost off of working out what the OP's deck is, what cards are likely in their 75, and appropriately casting Cabal Therapy on turn 2
I've had games won or lost off of working out what the OP's deck is, what cards are likely in their 75, and appropriately casting Cabal Therapy on turn 2
Absolutely agree. The best way to improve your Legacy performance is just to play a lot of games against many different decks. Playing a number of those decks yourself is very important too. I recommend extensive testing on Cockatrice and see what appeals to you. It's like test-driving expensive cars before you buy... just a smart decision.
I agree. I generally run Junk (Tier 2.5 a friend likes to say) and it's been treating me well since the DTT ban. Having brutal fair game, reasonable Miracles/Lands game, and mediocre (but somewhat doable) combo game; it's been treating me pretty well recently as everyone tries to adjust to the meta-shifts going on.
Even so, my hiatus has made my sideboarding game a bit weak so I end up missing possible cards that could've landed hard; like Chains of Meph against Shardless; I could've totally brought it in but spaced because I'm not used to them being a "blue" deck. (I won anyway; but I consider this a notable mistake against Visions, Jace, Brainstorm, Strix, etc..)
I could spend several paragraphs going into it. That said, experience isn't everything and if you have Belcher players find you; running Force tends to be a lot better than not (for what should be obvious reasons.)
Stax has good matchups against aggro, but can be equally detrimental against control, while less so against combo (unless you have Leyline of Sanctity). Although Stax is considered a lesser deck, it can show up in Top 8s every one in a while, which I think solidifies how unpredictable Legacy is, where a deck that doesn't do much usually can make Top 8 occasonally.
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Brian Davis: Necro for five.
Randy Beuhler (commentating): Necro for five?! He's still gonna win, but it's not as much fun!
Brian Hacker (also commentating): Randy all "Necro for nine" Beuhler...
Hey guys, I'm the kind of guy who's into statistics and lists. So one of the main reasons I got into modern and delved into it's metagame was because I saw the wonderful modern tier system set up. You can easily find what decks are ranked like what, you get to see them change every month as the meta does, and it's quite interesting to watch and observe. It would be cool to have something like that for these subforums, as while the deck-type based ones work okay, it always feels a bit awkward to have tier 1 decks in the same section as very outdated tier 4 ones. I'm proposing this subforum adapts to the tier system based on the modern forum. Maybe it wouldn't be updated every month, as that's a lot of work and the legacy meta doesn't change that much, but it would be cool to see for players that don't know that much about legacy, and would help people pick a good deck for them. Maybe something like this?
Tier 2:
Grixis Pyromancer/Control
Infect
Burn
Shardless BUG
Reanimator
Combo Elves
Merfolk
Death n' Taxes
Lands/Eternal Garden
MUD
Tier 3:
Dredge
Canadian Threshold
Junk
Painter
Jund
Aggro Loam
Manaless Dredge
GWx Maverick
Titan Post
BUG Control
Dragon/Goblin Stompy
Affinity
Enchantress
Jeskai Ascendancy
Goblins
Enchantress is its own tier of durdling. when you play with cards like wild growth you realize that theres a special place in hell called tier 4 reserved for you
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Tier 1:
UWr Miracles
Omnitell
Stoneblade
URx Delver
Storm
Tier 2:
Grixis Pyromancer/Control
Infect
Burn
Shardless BUG
Reanimator
Combo Elves
Merfolk
Death n' Taxes
Lands/Eternal Garden
MUD
Tier 3:
Dredge
Canadian Threshold
Junk
Painter
Jund
Aggro Loam
Manaless Dredge
GWx Maverick
Titan Post
BUG Control
Dragon/Goblin Stompy
Affinity
Enchantress
Jeskai Ascendancy
Goblins
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Basically this.
The lines for "tiers" are blurred in Legacy. Player skill and knowledge accounts for a lot. Hell, in the recent events, some fringe decks that nobody has heard of have been placing well.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
European metas are completely different to US ones again, especially where the players are not pros and the prizes not huge. Most events where Legacy is played tend to be local level 15 player events or FNM to "win a dual" type things with maybe 40 players. People don't change their Legacy decks very often due to prices, most people can't say, "Oh Sneak and Show is weak of late, I will play Lands today." A reasonably high number of medium size events don't get reported on Mtg Top 8 (though it is better of late), and when you look at some of the decks that do well its pretty clear there is even more diversity than we acknowledge, and card availability will affect what you see- a 40 player event here will have burn and affinity regardless of what tier they are in, and there will be as many of each as Miracles. So how does the tier help me? My gauntlet has to be what I will face.
A tier one Omnitell deck might turn up at your local event, be piloted perfectly well and still go 0-4 playing nothing but fringe decks. That is simply unlikely with Modern and near impossible with standard.
Additionally a good number of fringe deck decks, especially non blue ones (yes, they do exist) get a hell of a lot better if you are in a local environment and have an idea of who is on what, making the whole tier thing rather less important. Your tier one Omnitell or Miracles deck looks a lot less tier one if everyone knows they are there and knows who is playing it and builds their decks accordingly.
A lot of other fringe deck choices that you would say are tier 3 often are only fringe because of the time they often take (for no advantage in results terms) or the amount of money required to make what is only going to be a moderately successful deck (play a prison deck with 3 tabernacles and it will set you back a huge amount for of cash no results gain compared to you just sleeving up a solid deck like Merfolk, for example). You can still turn up to events and see them taken down by long since dead decks, whilst decks recycle and morph. If the meta, local or otherwise gets too much one way then things change to cope more often than not, even if that means obscure decks like trini-choke running main deck Chokes.
I read an article a while back by Reid Duke and I think he really nailed it. For reference if your curious
Basically, learning one deck inside and out is really powerful advantage that can't be duplicated easily. It is also a format thing though. You need to know what to play around and if you run a card like cabal therapy, you have to know what your opponent's gameplan is and what is the critical linchpin. Its not about knowing the top 8 or whatever, legacy is so diverse anything literally could show up from enchantress to storm to tezzerator to reanimator.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Absolutely agree. The best way to improve your Legacy performance is just to play a lot of games against many different decks. Playing a number of those decks yourself is very important too. I recommend extensive testing on Cockatrice and see what appeals to you. It's like test-driving expensive cars before you buy... just a smart decision.
they show the tiers in a generl way, but track data every month. Watch for the post banning shakeup!
Even so, my hiatus has made my sideboarding game a bit weak so I end up missing possible cards that could've landed hard; like Chains of Meph against Shardless; I could've totally brought it in but spaced because I'm not used to them being a "blue" deck. (I won anyway; but I consider this a notable mistake against Visions, Jace, Brainstorm, Strix, etc..)
I could spend several paragraphs going into it. That said, experience isn't everything and if you have Belcher players find you; running Force tends to be a lot better than not (for what should be obvious reasons.)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Stax has good matchups against aggro, but can be equally detrimental against control, while less so against combo (unless you have Leyline of Sanctity). Although Stax is considered a lesser deck, it can show up in Top 8s every one in a while, which I think solidifies how unpredictable Legacy is, where a deck that doesn't do much usually can make Top 8 occasonally.
Randy Beuhler (commentating): Necro for five?! He's still gonna win, but it's not as much fun!
Brian Hacker (also commentating): Randy all "Necro for nine" Beuhler...
-Randy Beuhler on Brian Davis at the Chicago Pro Tour 1999 Finals vs. Bob Maher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMei_cxSC0c
Enchantress is its own tier of durdling. when you play with cards like wild growth you realize that theres a special place in hell called tier 4 reserved for you