thats why I prefer the kiki-mite kill over the ghoul... your op cant block a million pestermites with proggy... necrotic ooze seems even better for situations like that too... the only reason why im not gonna run it is b/c during playtesting i often only held a bstorm and pact when i went off... a random discard at that point could be lethal.
oh, and i mainboard threads for merfolk now...yeah, its such a weird tech! but merfolk is huge here and i liek stealing 8/8 coral helm commanders with sofi on em! lulz
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'With the cards that are out there right now it is flavorly more common to know a spell that DESTROYS AN ENTIRE PLANE OF EXISTANCE than one that summons a snake that chills near lotus flowers...'
currently playing:
T2: Hawkward (neofinnity in standard???)
T1.5: Tezz-finity
oh, and i mainboard threads for merfolk now...yeah, its such a weird tech! but merfolk is huge here and i liek stealing 8/8 coral helm commanders with sofi on em! lulz
I'm pretty sure pro blue stops you from doing that.
Hopefully this isn't too dumb of a question and I don't see it discussed...my question is two-fold.
First off, do some builds run the Shaman En-Kor just for the 5th "zero cost to target" creature? Or is its ability actually relevant in Legacy? Which leads me to ask why Vedalken Aethermage isn't seen in more builds. With a vial at two, you could cycle the Mage end of turn and then vial it in.
With 4x Worldly Tutors and 2x Eldamari's Call and then 4x each of the Nomands and Illusionist, is there ever a problem not getting these guys on the board by turn 3?
Hopefully this isn't too dumb of a question and I don't see it discussed...my question is two-fold.
First off, do some builds run the Shaman En-Kor just for the 5th "zero cost to target" creature? Or is its ability actually relevant in Legacy? Which leads me to ask why Vedalken Aethermage isn't seen in more builds. With a vial at two, you could cycle the Mage end of turn and then vial it in.
With 4x Worldly Tutors and 2x Eldamari's Call and then 4x each of the Nomands and Illusionist, is there ever a problem not getting these guys on the board by turn 3?
if shamen is ever in the main board (which is actually more often then you think) then its in there as a one of to better our chances of comboing out against some kind of counter top variant. if countertop hits the field we will never be able to play another one cost the entire game. (even if we try to bounce the stuff our bounces can get countered or top can be placed on top of the deck) it is for this reason that the 2 cost shaman can be tutored up and used, since a 2 cost has at least SOME chance of hitting the field. its secondary ability rarely ever matters....ever.
vedalkin aether mage is not seen in more biulds simply because of the cost of the search (3). Its just a little too high for a combo deck like us. at least, thats my take on the whole thing.
yeah >.< but at most you see sofi as a what, 1-2 of in th SB? You're gonna see way moar jittes mainboarded. meh bad on the sofi thing... they would switch for them in g2...
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'With the cards that are out there right now it is flavorly more common to know a spell that DESTROYS AN ENTIRE PLANE OF EXISTANCE than one that summons a snake that chills near lotus flowers...'
currently playing:
T2: Hawkward (neofinnity in standard???)
T1.5: Tezz-finity
Yeah, the reason for shaman is pithing needle mainly. Shuko's problem is it can't be tutored for because it isn't a creature so eladamri's call and worldly tutor don't get it but it is an option.
Our weapon against CB is aether vial; that is our best card against them hands down. Vial gets around CB quite handily. And we can always try to counter the CB or something.
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Yeah, the reason for shaman is pithing needle mainly. Shuko's problem is it can't be tutored for because it isn't a creature so eladamri's call and worldly tutor don't get it but it is an option.
Our weapon against CB is aether vial; that is our best card against them hands down. Vial gets around CB quite handily. And we can always try to counter the CB or something.
Shuko can be tutored, with Steelshaper's Gift. I know what you mean, though.
Shuko can be tutored, with Steelshaper's Gift. I know what you mean, though.
yup, if you watch the video that is included in the primer you can see that Steelshaper's Gift was actually used pretty commonly back in 07. at least, in cephalid life.
Spooky, do you think that the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide/Pestermite as a finisher is better than Sutured Ghoul/Lord of Extinction? Just wondering.
yes, its actually much better, and ill tell you why.
-ignore swords to plowshares and other removal
-ignores moat
-is not stopped by a progenitus, emrakul or pro black creature chump blocking. ( you would be surprised how many times a friend of mine has lost because of things like these)
-is not stopped by kor haven
-is less of an "all in" strategy.
this is off of the top of my head, but yeah its better in my opinion.
i'll second that, getting run over by it is a little more complicated than just one big trampling monstrocity coming at you.
one other advantage to ooze combo is you can mill into say pridemage and blow up extra copy tokens to get rid of opposing enchantments unlike the kiki jiki pestermite combo.
such as leyline of sanctity, rune halo, or solitary confinement.
thus the ooze combo packs a few more abilities to be utilized that can be reached in the deck milling.
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yes, its actually much better, and ill tell you why.
-ignore swords to plowshares and other removal
-ignores moat
-is not stopped by a progenitus, emrakul or pro black creature chump blocking. ( you would be surprised how many times a friend of mine has lost because of things like these)
-is not stopped by kor haven
-is less of an "all in" strategy.
this is off of the top of my head, but yeah its better in my opinion.
I agree with everything in here, except that it doesnt ignore swords, if they throw it in respons eof you tapping kikki you are PHUCKED hahaha.. but it is still better thyan the ghoul, in my opinion the only reason to run ghoul isto have a backup plan in the name of tarmogoyfs, but in my opinion that backup plan is not worthy either.
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Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
i'll second that, getting run over by it is a little more complicated than just one big trampling monstrocity coming at you.
one other advantage to ooze combo is you can mill into say pridemage and blow up extra copy tokens to get rid of opposing enchantments unlike the kiki jiki pestermite combo.
such as leyline of sanctity, rune halo, or solitary confinement.
thus the ooze combo packs a few more abilities to be utilized that can be reached in the deck milling.
has anyone actually play tested the ooze version yet? i would certainly like to know how it plays out, and which way of providing haste is the best. i would like to add the version to the primer, but i dont think i should until we know whether or not it actually works well enough to put.
I agree with everything in here, except that it doesnt ignore swords, if they throw it in respons eof you tapping kikki you are PHUCKED hahaha.. but it is still better thyan the ghoul, in my opinion the only reason to run ghoul isto have a backup plan in the name of tarmogoyfs, but in my opinion that backup plan is not worthy either.
Shouldn't there always be a Cabal Therapy or two to clear the way before you "go off?" I would think that'd always be in the works. Haven't played with this deck much though so maybe I'm wrong.
has anyone actually play tested the ooze version yet? i would certainly like to know how it plays out, and which way of providing haste is the best. i would like to add the version to the primer, but i dont think i should until we know whether or not it actually works well enough to put.
I'd be really interested to hear some test reports on this combo as well.
Also, Spooky, in regards to Cabal Therapy is it possible to add to the primer the card(s) you would want to name with Therapy against each match-up? Let's just assume it's game one, 1st or 2nd turn, you haven't seen their hand and you somehow suspect or know what deck you're up against. It would also be cool to list the cards post-SB if it changes anything. I know this is probably more work than it sounds so if you don't feel like it, please tell me to bug off
Shouldn't there always be a Cabal Therapy or two to clear the way before you "go off?"
Yeah of course, i was just answering to the comment above which stated that the kiki/karmic route was immune to swords which it isn't, if the possibility of you not having discarded all of the threats before. =)
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Shouldn't there always be a Cabal Therapy or two to clear the way before you "go off?" I would think that'd always be in the works. Haven't played with this deck much though so maybe I'm wrong.
I'd be really interested to hear some test reports on this combo as well.
Also, Spooky, in regards to Cabal Therapy is it possible to add to the primer the card(s) you would want to name with Therapy against each match-up? Let's just assume it's game one, 1st or 2nd turn, you haven't seen their hand and you somehow suspect or know what deck you're up against. It would also be cool to list the cards post-SB if it changes anything. I know this is probably more work than it sounds so if you don't feel like it, please tell me to bug off
i would be happy to. expect it to take me a couple of days. 2 jobs and full time student here... ill probably have it up by the end of the weekend
Against blue decks, you always run the risk that once you're out of Cabal Therapy they'll Brainstorm into removal (Sensei's Divining Top is even more problematic as they can both hide and retrieve cards if they have sufficient mana). Unlike other win-conditions, which lose to removal at that point if they don't have a counter in hand, the Ooze win-condition combo's off anyways.
I'm not considering Anger for my build, as none of the duals I own are the right colors. Even if I owned the duals, though, I'd still run DSF. I don't want to risk my ability to go off on whether or not my opponent has Wasteland. DSF is of course contingent on having multiple cards in hand, I haven't tested enough to know whether this will reliably be the case, but it seems reasonable to expect that you will. It also functions as a niche way to get a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Mogg Fanatic into your graveyard without having to use a CT you'd rather aim at your opponent. It shouldn't matter if you discard a FoW/Pact to DSF as you win at instant speed once the ability resolves (barring hate cards).
one other advantage to ooze combo is you can mill into say pridemage and blow up extra copy tokens to get rid of opposing enchantments unlike the kiki jiki pestermite combo.
such as leyline of sanctity, rune halo, or solitary confinement..
Interesting idea. I like the synergy that Qasali Pridemage has with Ooze. I'm not sure how often the one mana to sac will be available the turn you want to go off though. Of course playing around opponents hate can slow the deck down anyways. It doesn't deal with grave hate though, so if we're in a situation where we need to cast it we'd need to wait til turn 3 to get the ability. Certianly something to test though.
To pose a question to you guys, Mogg Fanatic and Bile Urchin fufill the same role for the deck. Is there a reason to run one over the other? I assume Urchin is a better option because effects that prevent damage don't impact cards that cause direct loss of life, but I figured I'd check.
Edit: Assuming that logic holds, Death Cultist is probably the correct card to be running.
Ronom Unicorn and Kami of Ancient Law are better than Qasali to get rid of leyline,halo,solitary. Bile Urchin plays around Glacial Chasm, but Mogg Fanatic can get rid of any trouble some creatures. Fanatic is better imho.
Ronom Unicorn and Kami of Ancient Law are better than Qasali to get rid of leyline,halo,solitary. Bile Urchin plays around Glacial Chasm, but Mogg Fanatic can get rid of any trouble some creatures. Fanatic is better imho.
i agree with unicorn being better than pridemage. its certainly a sideboard option if nothing else. i doubt we would want it main board, because its even more clutter in the deck.
yes fanatic can get rid of creatures, but urchin is more on par with a lot of the color bases that people build, beyond what has already been said about him. i really think it comes down to which of the two have the most relevant ability for your meta.
sorry for double post but a cabal therapy and sideboard section have both been added to the main page of the primer. feel free to check them out and critique them.
sorry for double post but a cabal therapy and sideboard section have both been added to the main page of the primer. feel free to check them out and critique them.
oh, and i mainboard threads for merfolk now...yeah, its such a weird tech! but merfolk is huge here and i liek stealing 8/8 coral helm commanders with sofi on em! lulz
currently playing:
T2: Hawkward (neofinnity in standard???)
T1.5: Tezz-finity
and i didn't even do that on purpose...weird huh?
I'm pretty sure pro blue stops you from doing that.
not anymore than it stops anything else you try to do...
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First off, do some builds run the Shaman En-Kor just for the 5th "zero cost to target" creature? Or is its ability actually relevant in Legacy? Which leads me to ask why Vedalken Aethermage isn't seen in more builds. With a vial at two, you could cycle the Mage end of turn and then vial it in.
With 4x Worldly Tutors and 2x Eldamari's Call and then 4x each of the Nomands and Illusionist, is there ever a problem not getting these guys on the board by turn 3?
I mean that Sofi gives the Commander pro blue, meaning you cannot enchant it with threads.
whoops, i see what ur saying. mah bad >.<
if shamen is ever in the main board (which is actually more often then you think) then its in there as a one of to better our chances of comboing out against some kind of counter top variant. if countertop hits the field we will never be able to play another one cost the entire game. (even if we try to bounce the stuff our bounces can get countered or top can be placed on top of the deck) it is for this reason that the 2 cost shaman can be tutored up and used, since a 2 cost has at least SOME chance of hitting the field. its secondary ability rarely ever matters....ever.
vedalkin aether mage is not seen in more biulds simply because of the cost of the search (3). Its just a little too high for a combo deck like us. at least, thats my take on the whole thing.
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currently playing:
T2: Hawkward (neofinnity in standard???)
T1.5: Tezz-finity
and i didn't even do that on purpose...weird huh?
Our weapon against CB is aether vial; that is our best card against them hands down. Vial gets around CB quite handily. And we can always try to counter the CB or something.
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Shuko can be tutored, with Steelshaper's Gift. I know what you mean, though.
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yup, if you watch the video that is included in the primer you can see that Steelshaper's Gift was actually used pretty commonly back in 07. at least, in cephalid life.
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yes, its actually much better, and ill tell you why.
-ignore swords to plowshares and other removal
-ignores moat
-is not stopped by a progenitus, emrakul or pro black creature chump blocking. ( you would be surprised how many times a friend of mine has lost because of things like these)
-is not stopped by kor haven
-is less of an "all in" strategy.
this is off of the top of my head, but yeah its better in my opinion.
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one other advantage to ooze combo is you can mill into say pridemage and blow up extra copy tokens to get rid of opposing enchantments unlike the kiki jiki pestermite combo.
such as leyline of sanctity, rune halo, or solitary confinement.
thus the ooze combo packs a few more abilities to be utilized that can be reached in the deck milling.
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Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I agree with everything in here, except that it doesnt ignore swords, if they throw it in respons eof you tapping kikki you are PHUCKED hahaha.. but it is still better thyan the ghoul, in my opinion the only reason to run ghoul isto have a backup plan in the name of tarmogoyfs, but in my opinion that backup plan is not worthy either.
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
has anyone actually play tested the ooze version yet? i would certainly like to know how it plays out, and which way of providing haste is the best. i would like to add the version to the primer, but i dont think i should until we know whether or not it actually works well enough to put.
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Shouldn't there always be a Cabal Therapy or two to clear the way before you "go off?" I would think that'd always be in the works. Haven't played with this deck much though so maybe I'm wrong.
I'd be really interested to hear some test reports on this combo as well.
Also, Spooky, in regards to Cabal Therapy is it possible to add to the primer the card(s) you would want to name with Therapy against each match-up? Let's just assume it's game one, 1st or 2nd turn, you haven't seen their hand and you somehow suspect or know what deck you're up against. It would also be cool to list the cards post-SB if it changes anything. I know this is probably more work than it sounds so if you don't feel like it, please tell me to bug off
Yeah of course, i was just answering to the comment above which stated that the kiki/karmic route was immune to swords which it isn't, if the possibility of you not having discarded all of the threats before. =)
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
i would be happy to. expect it to take me a couple of days. 2 jobs and full time student here... ill probably have it up by the end of the weekend
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Against blue decks, you always run the risk that once you're out of Cabal Therapy they'll Brainstorm into removal (Sensei's Divining Top is even more problematic as they can both hide and retrieve cards if they have sufficient mana). Unlike other win-conditions, which lose to removal at that point if they don't have a counter in hand, the Ooze win-condition combo's off anyways.
I'm not considering Anger for my build, as none of the duals I own are the right colors. Even if I owned the duals, though, I'd still run DSF. I don't want to risk my ability to go off on whether or not my opponent has Wasteland. DSF is of course contingent on having multiple cards in hand, I haven't tested enough to know whether this will reliably be the case, but it seems reasonable to expect that you will. It also functions as a niche way to get a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Mogg Fanatic into your graveyard without having to use a CT you'd rather aim at your opponent. It shouldn't matter if you discard a FoW/Pact to DSF as you win at instant speed once the ability resolves (barring hate cards).
Interesting idea. I like the synergy that Qasali Pridemage has with Ooze. I'm not sure how often the one mana to sac will be available the turn you want to go off though. Of course playing around opponents hate can slow the deck down anyways. It doesn't deal with grave hate though, so if we're in a situation where we need to cast it we'd need to wait til turn 3 to get the ability. Certianly something to test though.
To pose a question to you guys, Mogg Fanatic and Bile Urchin fufill the same role for the deck. Is there a reason to run one over the other? I assume Urchin is a better option because effects that prevent damage don't impact cards that cause direct loss of life, but I figured I'd check.
Edit: Assuming that logic holds, Death Cultist is probably the correct card to be running.
i agree with unicorn being better than pridemage. its certainly a sideboard option if nothing else. i doubt we would want it main board, because its even more clutter in the deck.
yes fanatic can get rid of creatures, but urchin is more on par with a lot of the color bases that people build, beyond what has already been said about him. i really think it comes down to which of the two have the most relevant ability for your meta.
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Niiiice
Maybe add Necrotic Ooze, Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker, Bile Urchin, Dwarven Strike Force in the wincon part of the primer?