@ firefly. You can pay for your summoners pacts? How many tropical islands do you play? Seems interesting to tutor progenitus. Id just be worried bout the double green. I my self have considered running a few trops over seas ( mostly because I don't have ne seas) and using elephant grass instead of plauge outta the board.
@ firefly. You can pay for your summoners pacts? How many tropical islands do you play? Seems interesting to tutor progenitus. Id just be worried bout the double green. I my self have considered running a few trops over seas ( mostly because I don't have ne seas) and using elephant grass instead of plauge outta the board.
Yeah, I usually am able to play double green, as I don't even use slaughter pact, meaning I don't need seas in the first place. p.s what's plauge?
Engineered plague (typo). But still how many trops do you play to support the double green? Or are you mostly using the green pact to tutor a progenitus to pitch to force? I could see that being useful as I have found myself without an extra blue card a few times.
Engineered plague (typo). But still how many trops do you play to support the double green? Or are you mostly using the green pact to tutor a progenitus to pitch to force? I could see that being useful as I have found myself without an extra blue card a few times.
I play 3 tropical with fetchlands. I use progenitus to show and tell when they can deal with emrakul, when I don't have emrakul and need a big win creature ASAP, or when i need something to pitch to force. It's very useful.
So now that "the cat is outta the bag" so to speak on this deck, I think its time we start preparing for sb hate that may start poping up. Mostly stifle as angel's grace is way to narrow. Ideas?
Easiest way to get out of this is to Daze, Spell Pierce, or Cursecatcher sac targeting your own copy and then "failing to pay."
They can copy your Daze/Spell Pierce, but then you just pay for it.
The following turn, the Hive Mind player loses.
Alternatively, Krosan Grip and Stifle are "real" answers.
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Krosan Grip does nothing if the Hive Mind player has a pact on the same turn he plays said enchantment
No, you're missing the point. The reason why this combo is resilient is because Hive Mind copies any permission spells the opposing player might play, so Force of Will targeting his copy of Slaughter Pact will not work (the Hive Mind player will just copy the Force of Will and target the original Force of Will).
Having a Krosan Grip in response to Slaughter Pact will allow the opposing player to get around Hive Mind copying his permission spell. He will then counter his own copy of Slaughter Pact, and the Hive Mind player will probably lose on the following turn.
In summary: most permission spells are dead while Hive Mind is in play. Krosan Grip removes the Hive Mind so that most permission spells are not dead.
If. The opponent dazes their copy of a pact and could pay for the hivemind players copy of daze, the hive mind player would probably fallow suit and use his daze copy to counter his own pact. Therefore not losing the game on his upkeep. However cursecatcher, daze, spell peirce and the like all lose to multiple pacts used in a turn. Krosan grip is an out but I would fear stifle more.
If. The opponent dazes their copy of a pact and could pay for the hivemind players copy of daze, the hive mind player would probably fallow suit and use his daze copy to counter his own pact. Therefore not losing the game on his upkeep. However cursecatcher, daze, spell peirce and the like all lose to multiple pacts used in a turn. Krosan grip is an out but I would fear stifle more.
Good point. I guess Daze and Spell Pierce only slow down the Hive Mind player, and Cursecatcher works if he only has one Pact.
Stifle and Krosan Grip are the only "sure" outs then?
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K-grip is not an out. it would be K-grip+counter would be an out, but then in this magical Christmas land, why doesn't the hive min player have a counter himself?
Might as well say Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell is an out
Eon hub is a one card out too...very narrow though, same could be said for angel's grace.
So stifle/trickbind and curse catcher are the best outs imo. Now what do we do if everyone goes back to playing stifle? The card is useful in many matchups so It could realistically be played again. I could see it causeing this deck major issues.
Couldn't Mindbreak Trap just hose the whole plan. You play hive mind it resolves and you have to double pact in order to secure a win. The spell count is even easier if you had to S&t Hive mind in since you will invariably be most likely pacting 2x. This obviously doesn't answer emrakul but not much does and since it seems like most wins are on the back of Hive Mindbreak would seem to be a fairly decent answer along with something for emrakul like ensnaring bridge. You could always get enough mana to cast Time Stop lmao.
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Grats, here is your cookie I took a bite out of it because you're not worth a whole cookie. GL with your horrible tezzeret deck. Shmanka
i was using the recommended leyline of sanctity in this match up but they got around it with empty the warrens.
i'm wondering if the adding of stifle might be of use here?
or maybe something else?
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i'm concerned a tendrils player might just duress the mindbreak away before attempting to go off.
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Couldn't Mindbreak Trap just hose the whole plan. You play hive mind it resolves and you have to double pact in order to secure a win. The spell count is even easier if you had to S&t Hive mind in since you will invariably be most likely pacting 2x. This obviously doesn't answer emrakul but not much does and since it seems like most wins are on the back of Hive Mindbreak would seem to be a fairly decent answer along with something for emrakul like ensnaring bridge. You could always get enough mana to cast Time Stop lmao.
MBT doesn't stop the plan. this is why
Assuming you are a competent player, the stack looks like this
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER ON YOUR PACT
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER ON YOUR PACT
then when first trigger resolves
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER
YOUR PACT
THIER PACT
If they target only their pact, MBT has only one legal target, in which case when your trigger from Hive Mind resolves, you point your copy at their MBT and its is like nothing ever happened.
If they decide to have multiple targets, so in my example above, lets assume they target all 3 pacts. Then when Hive Mind resolves, your MBT needs to target 3 spells. In this case you target Your Pact,Your Second Pact, their Mindbreak Trap. Then end result is
TRIGGER
THEIR PACT
is left on the stack when your MBT resolves.
Now if THEIR pact is a pact of negation it will fizzle and then they only need to pay for the triggering pact, but in the end they still need to pay for the first pact.
Because multiple pacts lead to a trigger being left on the stack, Mindbreak trap cannont stop the combo, at best they can only target one of their copies at a time, and the counterspell they play will be a legal target for any of your copies.
Though Time stop will work to stop the combo, you just need to do it before a pact resolves (on their turn) or during your upkeep when pact paying is on the stack (on your turn)
Unfortunately, Mindbreak is one of those cards which has that strange reactive nature that doesn't make logical sense in real life. Remember, you're going to let them try to counter their copy and in response Cast trap. They'll invariably cast the green and black pacts first holding the PON for your possible answer. They'll go to PON their other pact and lose.
Mindbreak won't care if they are trying to resolve since they will cast their next spell before their real copy of the previous spell resolves. Also, it's not worried if what you remove are copies only that spells are there to be removed from the stack any number of them. You cast the trap. If they PON it you use your PON on theirs. This then takes all of the spells off. The copy is made and has to be resolved first by the player who didn't cast. Their MBT fizzles because they can't use since you didn't cast 3 or more spells. If I'm incorrect then that's fine it happens when you start getting into these complex stacks. Experience is followed by success.
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Unfortunately, Mindbreak is one of those cards which has that strange reactive nature that doesn't make logical sense in real life. Remember, you're going to let them try to counter their copy and in response Cast trap. They'll invariably cast the green and black pacts first holding the PON for your possible answer. They'll go to PON their other pact and lose.
why will they lose?
Mindbreak won't care if they are trying to resolve since they will cast their next spell before their real copy of the previous spell resolves.
Also, it's not worried if what you remove are copies only that spells are there to be removed from the stack any number of them.
I agree with this, but it can't target triggered abilities,if if they cast multiple pacts, there will be multiple triggers on the stack, because of FILO, only one trigger will resolve at a time, as such if two pacts(owned by the hive mind player) are on the stack, at best one pact is one stack(owned by the non hive mind player) MBT cannont target that remaining trigger
You cast the trap. If they PON it you use your PON on theirs. This then takes all of the spells off.
so you use your PON to counter a spell, which means at upkeep you need to pay for PON.It doesn't matter if the other pacts were exiled (unless you have 5 mana to pay for the PON)
The copy is made and has to be resolved first by the player who didn't cast. Their MBT fizzles because they can't use since you didn't cast 3 or more spells.
MBT won't trigger. the "cast 3 or more spells" is an alternative way to cast a spell. A copy doesn't care how it was cast. The copy how ever must copy the same number of targets as the original spell. But as I sated above and in the previous post, you (the non hivemind player) can have at most 1 pact on the stack at a time (assuming a competent hive mind player) and as you have 1 MBT trap on the stack, the targets of the copy will always be the (same spells you targeted with your MBT) - (the pact owned by the non-hivemind player) + (the MBT owned by the non-hivemind Player)
in which case because of FILO, Hivemind player MBT resolves, exiling nonhivemind player pact and any spells targeted by the original MBT (which would have to be the HiveMind Player's pacts)
leaving a Trigger of the first pact and non-hivemind player's pact left on stack.
using FILO
non-hivemind player's pact resolves
Hivemind trigger resolves (putting a copy of the 1st pact on the stack)
copy of first Pact resolves.
Hive mind's trigger does not require the original spell to be on the stack to be copied.
out come is, at upkeep non-hivemind player needs to pay for 2 pacts. In the off chance that player lives, the hive mind player has 0 pacts he needs to pay for at upkeep as his pacts were exiled.
If MBT is cast ONLY targeting his copy of a pact. the the Hivemind player will use his copy of MBT to target the original MBT.
In which case
copy of MBT resolves (removing original MBT from the stack)
Copy of Pact two resolves
Pact 2 resolves
Hive mind trigger resolves
copy of PAct 1 resolves
pact 1 resolves
At upkeep, non hivemind player pays for two pacts
if he lives, hivemind player needs to pay for two pacts at his upkeep
If I'm incorrect then that's fine it happens when you start getting into these complex stacks. Experience is followed by success.
hopefully that help explain the resolution of a hive mind stack?
I agree with this, but it can't target triggered abilities,if if they cast multiple pacts, there will be multiple triggers on the stack, because of FILO, only one trigger will resolve at a time, as such if two pacts(owned by the hive mind player) are on the stack, at best one pact is one stack(owned by the non hive mind player) MBT cannont target that remaining trigger
so you use your PON to counter a spell, which means at upkeep you need to pay for PON.It doesn't matter if the other pacts were exiled (unless you have 5 mana to pay for the PON)
MBT won't trigger. the "cast 3 or more spells" is an alternative way to cast a spell. A copy doesn't care how it was cast. The copy how ever must copy the same number of targets as the original spell. But as I sated above and in the previous post, you (the non hivemind player) can have at most 1 pact on the stack at a time (assuming a competent hive mind player) and as you have 1 MBT trap on the stack, the targets of the copy will always be the (same spells you targeted with your MBT) - (the pact owned by the non-hivemind player) + (the MBT owned by the non-hivemind Player)
in which case because of FILO, Hivemind player MBT resolves, exiling nonhivemind player pact and any spells targeted by the original MBT (which would have to be the HiveMind Player's pacts)
leaving a Trigger of the first pact and non-hivemind player's pact left on stack.
using FILO
non-hivemind player's pact resolves
Hivemind trigger resolves (putting a copy of the 1st pact on the stack)
copy of first Pact resolves.
Hive mind's trigger does not require the original spell to be on the stack to be copied.
out come is, at upkeep non-hivemind player needs to pay for 2 pacts. In the off chance that player lives, the hive mind player has 0 pacts he needs to pay for at upkeep as his pacts were exiled.
If MBT is cast ONLY targeting his copy of a pact. the the Hivemind player will use his copy of MBT to target the original MBT.
In which case
copy of MBT resolves (removing original MBT from the stack)
Copy of Pact two resolves
Pact 2 resolves
Hive mind trigger resolves
copy of PAct 1 resolves
pact 1 resolves
At upkeep, non hivemind player pays for two pacts
if he lives, hivemind player needs to pay for two pacts at his upkeep
hopefully that help explain the resolution of a hive mind stack?
They would lose since they expended at that point what would be there whole hand or if you just removed your spells from the series.
2. I know it can't target abilities and I understand FILO but the way MBT reads there doesn't seem to be anything that wouldn't allow for all the spells to actually resolve before you cast MBT because it's not countering the spells it's exiling them. In effect MBT is working like a permanent that exiles other permanents. So your copies could resolve and you just remove whatever would make you lose and leave whatever else is inconsequential to you. It was late and for whatever reason I wrote MBT as being conditional to the amount of spells cast so that was my mistake.
3. Using their PON to counter another pact only serves the purpose of making them believe you have nothing else going on if you plan to pay for that 1. If not you don't since it will be exiled any way.
4. I forgot about trinisphere which is a good way around the pacts.
Either way brainstorming to figure out a solution is what this is about and the only way is to test out ideas.
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Grats, here is your cookie I took a bite out of it because you're not worth a whole cookie. GL with your horrible tezzeret deck. Shmanka
Generally trinishphere will only slow the combo down a turn, and most decks packings spheres are not putting you on a clock anyway so you can afford to wait. Things likke dragon stompy,and mud stax have no efficent way of removing hive mind once its resolved so waiting a turn should not be an issue.
Unless you were refurring to trinishphere stoping your (the opponent) copy of a pact, that won't work, its the same for chalice of the void. These artifacts do trigger on the copied spells.
I'm strictly referring to the opponents ability to cast in the first place. One turn is all you need if you're waiting on your Angel's Grace or Platinum angel.
Edit: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22152_Eternal_Europe_Deconstructing_Hive_Mind.html
He talks about how formidable the deck is and how it can be beaten. In his description of how to beat the deck it seems to me that you're more likely to win than your opponent is to stop the combo or am I just much in love with Hive Mind? I used to play it for extended and I knew eventually it would make it to legacy.
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From my experince from playing the deck, it seems like this deck loses to itself more than anything. I mean there has been many a game where I sit waiting on the right pact or a intuition, or show and tell ect. Those games you lose are often because you couldn't get all your peices in time. Legacy is so fast that you can literially be dead by turn 4or 5 pretty consistantly (especially true sine we run fetch and anicent tomb). However turn 2 wins occur often enough to make the 'fast beats and hope' plan is just down right bad against hive mind.
I have found cursecatcher to be the biggest pain for me to handle, actually in general merfolk is tough if ur opponent knows how to play against this deck.
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Yeah, I usually am able to play double green, as I don't even use slaughter pact, meaning I don't need seas in the first place. p.s what's plauge?
I play 3 tropical with fetchlands. I use progenitus to show and tell when they can deal with emrakul, when I don't have emrakul and need a big win creature ASAP, or when i need something to pitch to force. It's very useful.
They can copy your Daze/Spell Pierce, but then you just pay for it.
The following turn, the Hive Mind player loses.
Alternatively, Krosan Grip and Stifle are "real" answers.
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No, you're missing the point. The reason why this combo is resilient is because Hive Mind copies any permission spells the opposing player might play, so Force of Will targeting his copy of Slaughter Pact will not work (the Hive Mind player will just copy the Force of Will and target the original Force of Will).
Having a Krosan Grip in response to Slaughter Pact will allow the opposing player to get around Hive Mind copying his permission spell. He will then counter his own copy of Slaughter Pact, and the Hive Mind player will probably lose on the following turn.
In summary: most permission spells are dead while Hive Mind is in play. Krosan Grip removes the Hive Mind so that most permission spells are not dead.
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Good point. I guess Daze and Spell Pierce only slow down the Hive Mind player, and Cursecatcher works if he only has one Pact.
Stifle and Krosan Grip are the only "sure" outs then?
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Might as well say Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell is an out
For 1 card outs:
Stifle
Angel's Grace
Trickbind
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
So stifle/trickbind and curse catcher are the best outs imo. Now what do we do if everyone goes back to playing stifle? The card is useful in many matchups so It could realistically be played again. I could see it causeing this deck major issues.
i was using the recommended leyline of sanctity in this match up but they got around it with empty the warrens.
i'm wondering if the adding of stifle might be of use here?
or maybe something else?
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i'm concerned a tendrils player might just duress the mindbreak away before attempting to go off.
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MBT doesn't stop the plan. this is why
Assuming you are a competent player, the stack looks like this
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER ON YOUR PACT
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER ON YOUR PACT
then when first trigger resolves
YOUR PACT
TRIGGER
YOUR PACT
THIER PACT
If they target only their pact, MBT has only one legal target, in which case when your trigger from Hive Mind resolves, you point your copy at their MBT and its is like nothing ever happened.
If they decide to have multiple targets, so in my example above, lets assume they target all 3 pacts. Then when Hive Mind resolves, your MBT needs to target 3 spells. In this case you target Your Pact,Your Second Pact, their Mindbreak Trap. Then end result is
TRIGGER
THEIR PACT
is left on the stack when your MBT resolves.
Now if THEIR pact is a pact of negation it will fizzle and then they only need to pay for the triggering pact, but in the end they still need to pay for the first pact.
Because multiple pacts lead to a trigger being left on the stack, Mindbreak trap cannont stop the combo, at best they can only target one of their copies at a time, and the counterspell they play will be a legal target for any of your copies.
Though Time stop will work to stop the combo, you just need to do it before a pact resolves (on their turn) or during your upkeep when pact paying is on the stack (on your turn)
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
Mindbreak won't care if they are trying to resolve since they will cast their next spell before their real copy of the previous spell resolves. Also, it's not worried if what you remove are copies only that spells are there to be removed from the stack any number of them. You cast the trap. If they PON it you use your PON on theirs. This then takes all of the spells off. The copy is made and has to be resolved first by the player who didn't cast. Their MBT fizzles because they can't use since you didn't cast 3 or more spells. If I'm incorrect then that's fine it happens when you start getting into these complex stacks. Experience is followed by success.
why will they lose?
I agree with this, but it can't target triggered abilities,if if they cast multiple pacts, there will be multiple triggers on the stack, because of FILO, only one trigger will resolve at a time, as such if two pacts(owned by the hive mind player) are on the stack, at best one pact is one stack(owned by the non hive mind player) MBT cannont target that remaining trigger
so you use your PON to counter a spell, which means at upkeep you need to pay for PON.It doesn't matter if the other pacts were exiled (unless you have 5 mana to pay for the PON)
MBT won't trigger. the "cast 3 or more spells" is an alternative way to cast a spell. A copy doesn't care how it was cast. The copy how ever must copy the same number of targets as the original spell. But as I sated above and in the previous post, you (the non hivemind player) can have at most 1 pact on the stack at a time (assuming a competent hive mind player) and as you have 1 MBT trap on the stack, the targets of the copy will always be the (same spells you targeted with your MBT) - (the pact owned by the non-hivemind player) + (the MBT owned by the non-hivemind Player)
in which case because of FILO, Hivemind player MBT resolves, exiling nonhivemind player pact and any spells targeted by the original MBT (which would have to be the HiveMind Player's pacts)
leaving a Trigger of the first pact and non-hivemind player's pact left on stack.
using FILO
non-hivemind player's pact resolves
Hivemind trigger resolves (putting a copy of the 1st pact on the stack)
copy of first Pact resolves.
Hive mind's trigger does not require the original spell to be on the stack to be copied.
out come is, at upkeep non-hivemind player needs to pay for 2 pacts. In the off chance that player lives, the hive mind player has 0 pacts he needs to pay for at upkeep as his pacts were exiled.
If MBT is cast ONLY targeting his copy of a pact. the the Hivemind player will use his copy of MBT to target the original MBT.
In which case
copy of MBT resolves (removing original MBT from the stack)
Copy of Pact two resolves
Pact 2 resolves
Hive mind trigger resolves
copy of PAct 1 resolves
pact 1 resolves
At upkeep, non hivemind player pays for two pacts
if he lives, hivemind player needs to pay for two pacts at his upkeep
hopefully that help explain the resolution of a hive mind stack?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
They would lose since they expended at that point what would be there whole hand or if you just removed your spells from the series.
2. I know it can't target abilities and I understand FILO but the way MBT reads there doesn't seem to be anything that wouldn't allow for all the spells to actually resolve before you cast MBT because it's not countering the spells it's exiling them. In effect MBT is working like a permanent that exiles other permanents. So your copies could resolve and you just remove whatever would make you lose and leave whatever else is inconsequential to you. It was late and for whatever reason I wrote MBT as being conditional to the amount of spells cast so that was my mistake.
3. Using their PON to counter another pact only serves the purpose of making them believe you have nothing else going on if you plan to pay for that 1. If not you don't since it will be exiled any way.
4. I forgot about trinisphere which is a good way around the pacts.
Either way brainstorming to figure out a solution is what this is about and the only way is to test out ideas.
Unless you were refurring to trinishphere stoping your (the opponent) copy of a pact, that won't work, its the same for chalice of the void. These artifacts do trigger on the copied spells.
Edit: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22152_Eternal_Europe_Deconstructing_Hive_Mind.html
He talks about how formidable the deck is and how it can be beaten. In his description of how to beat the deck it seems to me that you're more likely to win than your opponent is to stop the combo or am I just much in love with Hive Mind? I used to play it for extended and I knew eventually it would make it to legacy.
Slaughter Pact
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I have found cursecatcher to be the biggest pain for me to handle, actually in general merfolk is tough if ur opponent knows how to play against this deck.