Being able to pitch to Force of Will honestly just makes this card better than Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in Hive Mind.
It doesn't hurt than you can also grab it with Summoner's Pact in a pinch.
I think the split should be two Progenitus, one Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
The thing is, they are both pretty good, but really it goes 55/45 with Emrakul winning. While Progenitus can be pitched to force of will and is nearly untouchable as a 2 turn clock, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn shuffles all your cards back when it is discarded to your intuition (I usually go 2 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus and they always choose Progenitus), can actually be hard casted without show and tell giving you an extra turn (which I have done), is more like a 1 turn clock (15 damage with the annihaltor 6<- kills everyone), and their are actually as many as to Emrakul as they have answers to Progenitus in legacy. The reason I go with 2 Emrakul and 1 Progenitus Ratio is that their are less ways to find your emrakul than progenitus in your deck anyways.
The thing is, they are both pretty good, but really it goes 55/45 with Emrakul winning. While Progenitus can be pitched to force of will and is nearly untouchable as a 2 turn clock, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn shuffles all your cards back when it is discarded to your intuition (I usually go 2 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus and they always choose Progenitus), can actually be hard casted without show and tell giving you an extra turn (which I have done), is more like a 1 turn clock (15 damage with the annihaltor 6<- kills everyone), and their are actually as many as to Emrakul as they have answers to Progenitus in legacy. The reason I go with 2 Emrakul and 1 Progenitus Ratio is that their are less ways to find your emrakul than progenitus in your deck anyways.
Nah, there are definitely more answers to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn than there are to Progenitus in Legacy... Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Sower of Temptation, and Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar come to mind.
The shuffle effect should be next-to-irrelevant, as by casting Show and Tell and putting a fatty into play, you're practically commited to your Plan B and should not be overly concerned with shuffling cards back into your deck.
I guess it comes down to personal preference though.
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Nah, there are definitely more answers to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn than there are to Progenitus in Legacy... Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Sower of Temptation, and Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar come to mind.
Don't forget Stingscourger for the Goblins folk, Shriekmaw for Junk, and let's not forget this Big Guy. Progenitus is by far the bigger problem. Only exceptions I can think of are passive removal cards like Moat, Story Circle, and Runed Halo that would stop a Progenitus, but that is still a pretty risky proposition. With the possible exception of Moat, just getting rid of the thing is the best plan.
what i'm thinking is this allows for you to use cabal therapy which is never a bad thing, while givng you access to academy rector for another 3 sources of getting out hive mind.
i put 1 pattern of rebirth in there as a means to bridge academy rector with the emrakuls and progenitus.
for pattern of rebirth to have something to enchant i figured 2 copies of dryad arbor might fit the bill as well as a tutorable creature with summoners pact to fuel a cabal therapy flash back if need be. this is only a back up step should you not be able to tutor up arbor with fetch land of course.
i wanted to use pact of the titan for pattern of rebirth and cabal therapy fodder but summoner's seems just more useful in the end.
slaughter pact serves as academy rector and pattern of rebirth killer 5/6.
mana base could use some improvements.
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Here's a list of things that are played in Legacy that answer either Emrakul/Progenitus but not the other.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Karakas
Oblivion Ring
Mangara of Corondor
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sower of Temptation
Gilded Drake
Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar
Stingscourger
Shriekmaw
(Vampire Nighthawk)
Progenitus
Moat
Perish
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Runed Halo
Story Circle
Honestly, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is just far more vulnerable. Progenitus is usually better, except in dangerous race situations.
imho, the split should be 2/1 in favor of Progenitus. But, again, it's personal preference.
I really like how Progenitus can be fetched with Summoner's Pact, and how it can be pitched to Force of Will in a pinch.
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what i'm thinking is this allows for you to use cabal therapy which is never a bad thing, while givng you access to academy rector for another 3 sources of getting out hive mind.
i put 1 pattern of rebirth in there as a means to bridge academy rector with the emrakuls and progenitus.
for pattern of rebirth to have something to enchant i figured 2 copies of dryad arbor might fit the bill as well as a tutorable creature with summoners pact to fuel a cabal therapy flash back if need be. this is only a back up step should you not be able to tutor up arbor with fetch land of course.
i wanted to use pact of the titan for pattern of rebirth and cabal therapy fodder but summoner's seems just more useful in the end.
slaughter pact serves as academy rector and pattern of rebirth killer 5/6.
mana base could use some improvements.
While it may be an interesting way to get out hive mind it takes a lot of space. I don't even really like cabal therapy.
Cards I have been thinking of:
Mainboard: Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Of course. The infamous Jace, the Money Sculptor. But why not? Give you more board control, helps you search for Hive Mind or a piece of your Show and Tell combo, and even gives you another way to win. I say we give him a try in this deck.
Sideboard: Gilded Drake
Seems pretty good actually. Take there key creature and boom! I finish them off.
and on the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn vs. Progenitus Emrakul just screw them more once attacking. It pretty much gives you a for sure win. Progenitus is less vulnerable and has slightly better utility but doesn't give you a near for sure win. I've actually been defeated right after I attacked them with progenitus. I've always won when I have already attacked one with Emrakul. It does come down to preference, but for winning, Emrakul is better. For utility, Progenitus is better.
Let's also not forget Phyrexian Metamorph, tutor-able in many packages and a killer of both Emrakul and Progenitus. What's cool is I believe if he hits the board and kills the Pro, he himself also gets shuffled in because it never hits the GY to change its state as a card. Anyone want to verify this?
Nah, there are definitely more answers to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn than there are to Progenitus in Legacy... Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Sower of Temptation, and Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar come to mind.
Isn't Emrakul pro-Oblivion Ring?
Nevermind, I grok it - it's not a spell when it hits the battlefield.
Let's also not forget Phyrexian Metamorph, tutor-able in many packages and a killer of both Emrakul and Progenitus. What's cool is I believe if he hits the board and kills the Pro, he himself also gets shuffled in because it never hits the GY to change its state as a card. Anyone want to verify this?
Actually if I remember correctly by new rules the same legendary that came into play the latest stays in play. :/
Play Mox, discarding land, , play tomb, tap mox and tomb to cast show and tell to play hive mind and then play pact. there's nothing they can do about it.
The moxes not only give you a possibility of a turn 1 kill, but it also helps you fix your mana problems, and pay for the pact's cost with ease.
he'd just get swords or something, plus u gotta remove all those time counters.
course he doesn't bend over to tormods crypt like academy rector does.
-------------------------------------
as far as jace. the mind sculptor goes in this deck, i've had the similar thoughts on his use.
a reusable brainstorm, possible fog effect if he lures your opponents attack away. spot removal to boot.
it just depends on if you think 4cc isn't too much for those 3 effects?
-------------------------------------
is there any possible use for running an isocron scepter to use with the pacts?
-------------------------------------
i was considering maybe switching over to blightsteel colossus for the creature kill condition. reason is outside of the creature kill condition enlightened tutor if brought in can fetch up half of the key components.
hive mind itself, grim monolith
blightsteel can kill in 1 swing like emrakul and would just stretch enlightened tutors possible usefulness.
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Oh yeah, here's a question: If you cast a pact by the means of isochron scepter, do you still have to pay the upkeep cost?? I mean, it does say you don't have to pay the mana cost. If you don't have to pay for it would be a auto include. Totally forgot about the card.
And Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems worth it but I haven't found any space to put him into the deck.
Of course you do. The whole upkeep cost is part of the resolution of the pact.
Jace seems terrible in this deck. If Jace isn't being dropped onto an empty board, he's a 4 mana brainstorm. This deck doesn't interact at all with the opponent's board at all, so this will frequently be the case. He'd only be OK against other combo decks with no board presence, and then you'd be banking on a long game.
Of course you do. The whole upkeep cost is part of the resolution of the pact.
Jace seems terrible in this deck. If Jace isn't being dropped onto an empty board, he's a 4 mana brainstorm. This deck doesn't interact at all with the opponent's board at all, so this will frequently be the case. He'd only be OK against other combo decks with no board presence, and then you'd be banking on a long game.
Wait wait wait, so do you still have to pay it??? O.o
Jace seems awesome in the deck. He bounces the creatures, searches for key cards, and even wins you the game.
Hivemind had some amazingly strong showings at the Seattle 5K. I saw plenty of lists when I was checking decks, and were consistently at the upper tables.
Jace, btw, didn't show up in said top-table Hivemind decks.
Near impossible? Sean Ryan beat this 3 times in a row. I wanted him to win it all since I think it is crazy that he played the same deck 4 times in a row. This deck is crazy good though. I think it is one of the most powerful and consistent decks right now.
A very standard legacy deck, but very well made. All I would change is -1 Emrakul +1 Progenitus. And change some lands to put in some tropical islands. I don't know how he did it but he doesn't have a way to pay for his summoner's pact.
Replacing an Emrakul for a Progenitus hurts the whole Intuition engine. You don't want to give them the choice of which you get.
Adding green sources to pay for summoner's pact is terrible. You'd need to fetch 2 tropicals, which will only rarely happen, and this makes your mana base incredibly greedy and vulnerable to nonbasic hate.
Adding green sources to pay for summoner's pact is terrible. You'd need to fetch 2 tropicals, which will only rarely happen, and this makes your mana base incredibly greedy and vulnerable to nonbasic hate.
Well the thing is, what do you do when they stifle the trigger or pay the cost? Then your totally screwed unless you had pact of negation back up.
Well the thing is, what do you do when they stifle the trigger or pay the cost? Then your totally screwed unless you had pact of negation back up.
I would say good game and move on. The number of games where
1) they stifle your summoner's pact
2) you didn't also cast another pact (so that stifle doesn't save them anyways)
3) you managed to fetch a pair of tropicals, and
4) you aren't already dead by this point
will be FAR far less than the number of games where you play a tropical instead of a basic island and you die to wasteland, blood moon, back to basics, etc.
That's true. GG. good debate. I'm just wondering if Firespout was still very good even without the green. I mean, you barely see flying creatures today but still.
The thing is, they are both pretty good, but really it goes 55/45 with Emrakul winning. While Progenitus can be pitched to force of will and is nearly untouchable as a 2 turn clock, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn shuffles all your cards back when it is discarded to your intuition (I usually go 2 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus and they always choose Progenitus), can actually be hard casted without show and tell giving you an extra turn (which I have done), is more like a 1 turn clock (15 damage with the annihaltor 6<- kills everyone), and their are actually as many as to Emrakul as they have answers to Progenitus in legacy. The reason I go with 2 Emrakul and 1 Progenitus Ratio is that their are less ways to find your emrakul than progenitus in your deck anyways.
Nah, there are definitely more answers to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn than there are to Progenitus in Legacy... Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Sower of Temptation, and Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar come to mind.
The shuffle effect should be next-to-irrelevant, as by casting Show and Tell and putting a fatty into play, you're practically commited to your Plan B and should not be overly concerned with shuffling cards back into your deck.
I guess it comes down to personal preference though.
Currently playing:
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Don't forget Stingscourger for the Goblins folk, Shriekmaw for Junk, and let's not forget this Big Guy. Progenitus is by far the bigger problem. Only exceptions I can think of are passive removal cards like Moat, Story Circle, and Runed Halo that would stop a Progenitus, but that is still a pretty risky proposition. With the possible exception of Moat, just getting rid of the thing is the best plan.
3 academy rector
1 progenitus
2 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 pattern of rebirth
4 hive mind
4 summoner's pact
4 pact of negation
2 slaughter pact
4 cabal therapy
4 show and tell
4 force of will
3 ponder
3 brainstorm
2 grim monolith
2 dryad arbor
4 misty rainforest
1 bayou
3 underground sea
1 tundra
1 savannah
1 flooded strand
3 ancient tomb
3 tropical island
what i'm thinking is this allows for you to use cabal therapy which is never a bad thing, while givng you access to academy rector for another 3 sources of getting out hive mind.
i put 1 pattern of rebirth in there as a means to bridge academy rector with the emrakuls and progenitus.
for pattern of rebirth to have something to enchant i figured 2 copies of dryad arbor might fit the bill as well as a tutorable creature with summoners pact to fuel a cabal therapy flash back if need be. this is only a back up step should you not be able to tutor up arbor with fetch land of course.
i wanted to use pact of the titan for pattern of rebirth and cabal therapy fodder but summoner's seems just more useful in the end.
slaughter pact serves as academy rector and pattern of rebirth killer 5/6.
mana base could use some improvements.
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Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Karakas
Oblivion Ring
Mangara of Corondor
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sower of Temptation
Gilded Drake
Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar
Stingscourger
Shriekmaw
(Vampire Nighthawk)
Progenitus
Moat
Perish
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Runed Halo
Story Circle
Honestly, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is just far more vulnerable. Progenitus is usually better, except in dangerous race situations.
imho, the split should be 2/1 in favor of Progenitus. But, again, it's personal preference.
I really like how Progenitus can be fetched with Summoner's Pact, and how it can be pitched to Force of Will in a pinch.
Currently playing:
Merfolk
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Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
MY SALES THREAD!
While it may be an interesting way to get out hive mind it takes a lot of space. I don't even really like cabal therapy.
Cards I have been thinking of:
Mainboard:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Of course. The infamous Jace, the Money Sculptor. But why not? Give you more board control, helps you search for Hive Mind or a piece of your Show and Tell combo, and even gives you another way to win. I say we give him a try in this deck.
Sideboard:
Gilded Drake
Seems pretty good actually. Take there key creature and boom! I finish them off.
and on the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn vs. Progenitus Emrakul just screw them more once attacking. It pretty much gives you a for sure win. Progenitus is less vulnerable and has slightly better utility but doesn't give you a near for sure win. I've actually been defeated right after I attacked them with progenitus. I've always won when I have already attacked one with Emrakul. It does come down to preference, but for winning, Emrakul is better. For utility, Progenitus is better.
Isn't Emrakul pro-Oblivion Ring?
Nevermind, I grok it - it's not a spell when it hits the battlefield.
Actually if I remember correctly by new rules the same legendary that came into play the latest stays in play. :/
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
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Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Here's how it goes:
Hand: 1 Ancient Tomb, 1 Land, 1 Mox Diamond, 1 Show and Tell, 1 Hive Mind, 1 Pact, some other card
Play Mox, discarding land, , play tomb, tap mox and tomb to cast show and tell to play hive mind and then play pact. there's nothing they can do about it.
The moxes not only give you a possibility of a turn 1 kill, but it also helps you fix your mana problems, and pay for the pact's cost with ease.
@TheRogue You should use Lost Auramancers in your build.
he'd just get swords or something, plus u gotta remove all those time counters.
course he doesn't bend over to tormods crypt like academy rector does.
-------------------------------------
as far as jace. the mind sculptor goes in this deck, i've had the similar thoughts on his use.
a reusable brainstorm, possible fog effect if he lures your opponents attack away. spot removal to boot.
it just depends on if you think 4cc isn't too much for those 3 effects?
-------------------------------------
is there any possible use for running an isocron scepter to use with the pacts?
-------------------------------------
i was considering maybe switching over to blightsteel colossus for the creature kill condition. reason is outside of the creature kill condition enlightened tutor if brought in can fetch up half of the key components.
hive mind itself, grim monolith
blightsteel can kill in 1 swing like emrakul and would just stretch enlightened tutors possible usefulness.
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If you cast a pact by the means of isochron scepter, do you still have to pay the upkeep cost?? I mean, it does say you don't have to pay the mana cost. If you don't have to pay for it would be a auto include. Totally forgot about the card.
And Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems worth it but I haven't found any space to put him into the deck.
I don't use white, so I wouldn't use blightsteel colossus. When it comes to big creatures though, Iona, shield of Emeria could be a decent choice too.
Of course you do. The whole upkeep cost is part of the resolution of the pact.
Jace seems terrible in this deck. If Jace isn't being dropped onto an empty board, he's a 4 mana brainstorm. This deck doesn't interact at all with the opponent's board at all, so this will frequently be the case. He'd only be OK against other combo decks with no board presence, and then you'd be banking on a long game.
Wait wait wait, so do you still have to pay it??? O.o
Jace seems awesome in the deck. He bounces the creatures, searches for key cards, and even wins you the game.
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Jace, btw, didn't show up in said top-table Hivemind decks.
Ben Swartz
2011 StarCity Open Legacy - Seattle - 7/26
Main Deck:
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
4 Intuition
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Summoner's Pact
3 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mental Misstep
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Spell Pierce
A very standard legacy deck, but very well made. All I would change is -1 Emrakul +1 Progenitus. And change some lands to put in some tropical islands. I don't know how he did it but he doesn't have a way to pay for his summoner's pact.
Adding green sources to pay for summoner's pact is terrible. You'd need to fetch 2 tropicals, which will only rarely happen, and this makes your mana base incredibly greedy and vulnerable to nonbasic hate.
Well the thing is, what do you do when they stifle the trigger or pay the cost? Then your totally screwed unless you had pact of negation back up.
People start to lose when they overextend.
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I would say good game and move on. The number of games where
1) they stifle your summoner's pact
2) you didn't also cast another pact (so that stifle doesn't save them anyways)
3) you managed to fetch a pair of tropicals, and
4) you aren't already dead by this point
will be FAR far less than the number of games where you play a tropical instead of a basic island and you die to wasteland, blood moon, back to basics, etc.
I would like to debate about flusterstorm vs. spell pierce. I usually go with flusterstorm, but many other people go with spell pierce. Which one's better and why?