This is not a tempo deck. I should probably put this in UWx stoneblade rather than here but this forum thinks about Bant interactions where that one is all esper, all the time.
Daze is exceedingly good, but I very rarely want more than one in a game, especially in a controlling oriented build like this one. When they play around it, that is fine since they waste resources, time and brain power. When they don't and I have it, it is often a blowout. Generally speaking, it is very rare that you daze something and the opponent doesn't respect other dazes in the future (unless they can't) or that you find a situation where your opponent does not yet know it is in your deck, and it is profitable for you to double daze on a given turn/play (it happens but is rare). Initially, I had it in as the pseudo-5th force for combo matchups, but I cut one force to the board (for library) and kept the daze main because the card disadvantage of force can be problematic in non-combo game 1's, while daze still gives me good cover during the critical first two turns and reasonable utility afterwards.
With an active knight, if you are not getting a wasteland to immediately kill a problem land, then in most board states you should probably be getting the maze. Since you normally fetch on the end of their turn for your first knight activation, they cannot do anything about it for at least a turn and it gives your knight pseudo-vigilance (end of combat step, post-damage, untap and remove from combat) allowing you to attack and activate its ability during the same turn cycle. If you are not playing knight this way, you will be amazed at how much better it can be when you do. Doing this means during your first knight activation it only grows by +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 but the extra attack step you gain and the ability to grow and attack each turn more than makes up for it. The protective ability of maze also makes me more than happy to have it since I am playing for a longer game.
You know what the problem with daze is...they can pay it with 1 mana. You are not a mana denial deck. You run 3 wastelands, no stifles. You are a mid range deck that allows people to play on and get some sort of board state. Chances are, your opponent will have more than 2 lands in play.
Dont' get me wrong, daze is awesome turn 1-2 when you drop a hierarch and daze their first play. However after turn 2, daze becomes nearly useless. You would be happy to play a late game daze. If not, it becomes force of will fodder which you can just use another type of counter in its place. Hell negate works better as a one of than daze.
I know I hate it when I draw a daze past turn 4. I do love it in my opening hand.
As for knight and maze, playing 61 cards just seems odd. Out of the deck, what can you really cut to make things fit? Maze of ith is most likely the first card you think of removing before lowing mana count, creature counts and spell count.
Artifacts and enchantments, yup, no direct answer game one, other than counter them, or ignore them and make the opponent more concerned about your threats.
Edit: Venser is also a one turn answer, which should not be overlooked.
Anyone test the GW deer/elk hate-bear thing? I'm wondering if he makes the cut in Bant as you could shift around to having more spells/counters. Just protect him and he essentially makes a personal army lol
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Running one daze is just weird when its such a tempo card.
If you are lacking slots, you can cut the maze. I found that cutting that maze wasn't that detrimental all that much. I never really fetched it with knight anyways.
I would disagree with both and re-affirm the OP responses on these - running any number of Daze in most Bant lists (including this one) is at least on the table, and running 1 has more effect that 1 card usually does (as it gets feared/respected) without the downsides which Daze has in multiples. It's okay to not love Daze, and it's okay to love it and want more, but there's nothing weird about 1. Also, it probably fits best in SFM decks, among Bant decks, as it fills a nice niche in the weird mana curve.
Maze is really really good. Double-use of Knight, tutorable "removal," etc.
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I don't love Bant-Blade as a deck, and prefer the GSZ package. And if I were playing Stoneforge and Swords, I would seriously consider Geist.
Looking at this list, a couple thoughts:
-I would run basic Forest over Plains. If you're in mana trouble, the ability to reliably cast Hierarch/Library is more important.
-MD Venser seems wimpy unless you really fear SnT, and I don't think you should. I'd prefer 3rd Clique or a Geist - particularly with maindeck Sword.
-I had to triple-take that Sideboard to confirm the lack of E Tutor. I would run 1 over the second Canonist. I would rather have E Tutor than Canonist in my opener against Storm, and it (obviously) turns on a bunch more options (like EE if they already Goblins you, or tutoring any piece against GY decks, etc.)
-Even better than E Tutor is Crop Rotation. Besides the obvious Bog, Karakas, and even Maze, Rotating for Ruins->recurring EE/Canonist is really good against Dredge/Storm, where you'd already benefit from instant-speed Grave-wipe/Legend-bounce.
-I would cut maindeck Jitte - 3 swords is a lot.
I would disagree with both and re-affirm the OP responses on these - running any number of Daze in most Bant lists (including this one) is at least on the table, and running 1 has more effect that 1 card usually does (as it gets feared/respected) without the downsides which Daze has in multiples. It's okay to not love Daze, and it's okay to love it and want more, but there's nothing weird about 1. Also, it probably fits best in SFM decks, among Bant decks, as it fills a nice niche in the weird mana curve.
Maze is really really good. Double-use of Knight, tutorable "removal," etc.
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I don't love Bant-Blade as a deck, and prefer the GSZ package. And if I were playing Stoneforge and Swords, I would seriously consider Geist.
Looking at this list, a couple thoughts:
-I would run basic Forest over Plains. If you're in mana trouble, the ability to reliably cast Hierarch/Library is more important.
-MD Venser seems wimpy unless you really fear SnT, and I don't think you should. I'd prefer 3rd Clique or a Geist - particularly with maindeck Sword.
-I had to triple-take that Sideboard to confirm the lack of E Tutor. I would run 1 over the second Canonist. I would rather have E Tutor than Canonist in my opener against Storm, and it (obviously) turns on a bunch more options (like EE if they already Goblins you, or tutoring any piece against GY decks, etc.)
-Even better than E Tutor is Crop Rotation. Besides the obvious Bog, Karakas, and even Maze, Rotating for Ruins->recurring EE/Canonist is really good against Dredge/Storm, where you'd already benefit from instant-speed Grave-wipe/Legend-bounce.
-I would cut maindeck Jitte - 3 swords is a lot.
I still hate daze. I like it in merfolk when I have more land destruction and playing at a faster pace. I dislike it even more as a 1 of
As for maze, I replaced it with scryb ranger. I remember now. It has more utility than maze. Semi fog with dryad arbor, wasteland proof to your dual lands, untaps, brainstorm more cards by getting rid of extra lands.
Much more useful than maze. Bryan Hawley (my name is bryan too), doesn't run maze either. I suspect for the same reason I am having.
Out of the 3 swords, I would actually not drop the jitte. I would drop feast and famine. He already lacks artifact removal. The jitte would most likely be used to remove an opponent's jitte. I mean 75% of the time, my qasali is removing a jitte
I still hate daze. I like it in merfolk when I have more land destruction and playing at a faster pace. I dislike it even more as a 1 of
As for maze, I replaced it with scryb ranger. I remember now. It has more utility than maze. Semi fog with dryad arbor, wasteland proof to your dual lands, untaps, brainstorm more cards by getting rid of extra lands.
Much more useful than maze. Bryan Hawley (my name is bryan too), doesn't run maze either. I suspect for the same reason I am having.
Out of the 3 swords, I would actually not drop the jitte. I would drop feast and famine. He already lacks artifact removal. The jitte would most likely be used to remove an opponent's jitte. I mean 75% of the time, my qasali is removing a jitte
A deck with 3 Wastelands and 4 Knights has more land destruction than a deck with 4 Wastelands.
Scryb Ranger does not have more utility. Maze is semi-fog by itself and gives a free Knight activation every turn - ramping mana, getting Karakas/Ruins to recur other tricks, or Wasting them out of the game. Maze is also more resilient.
Probably above all, Maze is tutorable. When fair matches come down to creature chess, being able to search up Maze is back-breaking. Like if I said, "Drop Jitte for a Path, it's more consistent at removing guys when you need to," you might righly reply "Ya but it takes over the game and you're a SFM deck!" Even if Ranger were better card for card (it isn't) this is a Knight deck.
Actually dropping Jitte as 3rd quip is predicated on having Geist; Jitte is of course better w/out Geist.
Anyone test the GW deer/elk hate-bear thing? I'm wondering if he makes the cut in Bant as you could shift around to having more spells/counters. Just protect him and he essentially makes a personal army lol
I would like to test it, but I suspect it to be another sort of Vexing Devil, where the opponent's ability to ignore or play around its circumstantially-dominant effect will relativize the actual power of the card. It's not proactive enough. Many decks obviously just ignore it and try to win, and it doesn't do any real hating. Against UWx decks which are most likely to want to play spells on your turn, exiling him nets you no value. Most interactive decks, which might fear its output if the game gets long enough, can cast most their instants on their turn.
So it's interesting, but I don't think it passes the "would I rather have a Tarmogoyf?" test (especially not at WG, when I like blue cards so much).
A deck with 3 Wastelands and 4 Knights has more land destruction than a deck with 4 Wastelands.
Scryb Ranger does not have more utility. Maze is semi-fog by itself and gives a free Knight activation every turn - ramping mana, getting Karakas/Ruins to recur other tricks, or Wasting them out of the game. Maze is also more resilient.
Probably above all, Maze is tutorable. When fair matches come down to creature chess, being able to search up Maze is back-breaking. Like if I said, "Drop Jitte for a Path, it's more consistent at removing guys when you need to," you might righly reply "Ya but it takes over the game and you're a SFM deck!" Even if Ranger were better card for card (it isn't) this is a Knight deck.
Actually dropping Jitte as 3rd quip is predicated on having Geist; Jitte is of course better w/out Geist.
True on the geist. Can't swing in with a 2/2
Still debating on whether removing maze is a good idea.
scryb ranger goes hand in hand with dryad arbor. If you run an arbor, its pretty useful to run scryb. But if you don't run an abor, you can go maze.
I would like to test it, but I suspect it to be another sort of Vexing Devil, where the opponent's ability to ignore or play around its circumstantially-dominant effect will relativize the actual power of the card. It's not proactive enough. Many decks obviously just ignore it and try to win, and it doesn't do any real hating. Against UWx decks which are most likely to want to play spells on your turn, exiling him nets you no value. Most interactive decks, which might fear its output if the game gets long enough, can cast most their instants on their turn.
So it's interesting, but I don't think it passes the "would I rather have a Tarmogoyf?" test (especially not at WG, when I like blue cards so much).
re: new guy.
There is nothing in this deck that is a must answer on our turn. You can wait until your (opponent) untap to stop one of our guys.
There is nothing in this deck that is a must answer on our turn. You can wait until your (opponent) untap to stop one of our guys.
The only exception is jace.
I don't know what you mean. Bant has several "answer this immediately or die" cards.
@limbodave81:
I'd make GoST the focus. I think that's a reactive gamplan you're pushing. I hate Venser in general and Clique is outclassed by Geist right now. Geist requires a tweaking though:
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3x Geist (2-3 is where you wanna be. 4 is excessive and he's a legend)
2x Jace (3rd in SB)
2x Elspeth (aids everyone. overwhelms with GoST as him and angel-lady now fly)
With such a steep curve, 4x Hierarch is a must
/11 core
Spells
4x StP
4x Brainstorm
10x Control (forces, snares, pierces, daze, stifle, bounce, more removal)
/18 support spells
At 29 slots, I'd then ask myself if I'm going to abuse Geist in a midrange or tempo shell. I ran SFM.dec at 22 lands. I run Maverick at 23. That's an additional 8-9 dedicated threats. This is where we can go KotR, Clique, SFM + toys, Goyf, Library, etc. Your deck is blue-centric -- but can run off smoother curves/gameplans. You can go Hierarch -> geist -> jace. You can sit back with Swords -> SFM (and protect). You can drop Hierarch -> stifle + Goyf.
A neo-New Horizons could be achieved if you go force/stifle/daze + kotr/goyf/geist. Bant-blade can still happen.
Don't discredit Elspeth. She can straight-up end games. Even board-states suddenly go in your favor. I also hear she plays well with Jace.
*Use this as a point of discussion. I'd like to hear how others feel about this.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I don't know what you mean. Bant has several "answer this immediately or die" cards.
@limbodave81:
I'd make GoST the focus. I think that's a reactive gamplan you're pushing. I hate Venser in general and Clique is outclassed by Geist right now. Geist requires a tweaking though:
--------------
3x Geist (2-3 is where you wanna be. 4 is excessive and he's a legend)
2x Jace (3rd in SB)
2x Elspeth (aids everyone. overwhelms with GoST as him and angel-lady now fly)
With such a steep curve, 4x Hierarch is a must
/11 core
Spells
4x StP
4x Brainstorm
10x Control (forces, snares, pierces, daze, stifle, bounce, more removal)
/18 support spells
At 29 slots, I'd then ask myself if I'm going to abuse Geist in a midrange or tempo shell. I ran SFM.dec at 22 lands. I run Maverick at 23. That's an additional 8-9 dedicated threats. This is where we can go KotR, Clique, SFM + toys, Goyf, Library, etc. Your deck is blue-centric -- but can run off smoother curves/gameplans. You can go Hierarch -> geist -> jace. You can sit back with Swords -> SFM (and protect). You can drop Hierarch -> stifle + Goyf.
A neo-New Horizons could be achieved if you go force/stifle/daze + kotr/goyf/geist. Bant-blade can still happen.
Don't discredit Elspeth. She can straight-up end games. Even board-states suddenly go in your favor. I also hear she plays well with Jace.
*Use this as a point of discussion. I'd like to hear how others feel about this.
The point is this deck is ultimately a creature deck. To win, you must get an untap phase then attack.
What does this deck have that the opponent MUST answer on our turn before the opponent goes back to the main phase? The only one I can think of is Jace. And against decks like RUG, they can actually let jace resolve and bolt his ass on the opponent's turn.
There is nothing that is an immediate threat like sneak attack, tendrils belcher where YOU MUST counter it NOW or die.
The point is this deck is ultimately a creature deck. To win, you must get an untap phase then attack.
What does this deck have that the opponent MUST answer on our turn before the opponent goes back to the main phase? The only one I can think of is Jace. And against decks like RUG, they can actually let jace resolve and bolt his ass on the opponent's turn.
There is nothing that is an immediate threat like sneak attack, tendrils belcher where YOU MUST counter it NOW or die.
^^ Not sure if there's attitude behind this or not. Given the context to which you supported Jace, even he fails to win the game immediately. I've won many games where the opponent played Jace and I still won. He isn't as overpowering as you'd think. In general, any non-combo finisher fails to make the cut. Aggro/Midrange just doesn't auto-win with a specific card. Jace is great (don't get me wrong), but he doesn't win the game on the spot. Hell, if that's the angle you're going for, Elspeth is entirely more relevant as you can windmill-slam her and use the "jump"-pump to end games immediately.
Depending upon how you build your list, I can see Jace, Elspeth, and KotR as "must answer" cards. I honestly find Elspeth to be one of the few "must answer" cards of the format. No, it's not Sneak Attack into Emmy/Grisseldaddy, but you're going to be punched in the face once she comes out.
@point of the deck:
Yes, it's understood Bant is creature-focused. Was looking to stir the pot with the framework from my previous post more than deal with attitude here.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Is anyone else actually playing bant on a regular basis? If so, please tell us about it and what you liked, didn't like, etc. I couldn't have been the only one running it this weekend.
Has anyone else sleeved up a tempo version? I tried a (admittedly bad (103)) version of the tempo bant at the beginning of the month. Should have played the list I proposed in 98. Even so, it showed me that, while there is something there, as I described during 103, it isn't really to my taste. Before that I ran GSZ decks for a while, and those were fun but again, aren't where I personally want to be week in, week out. Though they are a nice change of pace. My favorite thing about Bant is that I can sit down, play tropical island against an opponent who knows me and they still have little idea what they need to be concerned about.
Ultimately though, I prefer stoneblade as my base bant deck. I like having a myriad of effects and instant speed interactions. People seem to have overlooked the most important part of my Monday post:
... and worth giving a try if you like the midrange to control side of bant...
I was really hoping people might actually take it as a starting place and go out and sleeve up some cards.
Why do I play 3 equipment, 1 Venser, and 1 daze, because they play well in those numbers. I had a hypothesis, I tested it, I like the results, I told you about it. If you have played this style of bant and it didn't work for you, or specific cards underperformed, tell us why and which? I played a tournament this weekend, which I won, that was rather peculiar in that it was lots of dredge and combo, with very few far decks. To try to explain why I like this deck, here is an example from this weekend: During the tournament I played against three different dredge decks(M:3-0, G:6-1 against them). Dredge is supposed to auto win game 1, but it isn't so against this deck. Just in game 1's: I killed my own noble with jitte counters to clear bridges, I force of willed a T1 LED when he was on 5 cards with a funny look on his face, I dazed a dread return, I fetched wastelands on 3 straight turns with knights... this deck has so many options that let you interact with everything your opponents are doing. It lets you out play them. Have you ever Venser locked a stoneblade player? Clique locked a storm player? It feels great, and there is very little they can do about it. If you like having the biggest guy and winning quickly, my build of Bant is clearly not going to be fun for you. That's cool, tell us about the builds you do play and why you like them.
_________
@Warden Voice of Resurgence does seem like it could be quite strong in a GSZ build, though I suspect it will find a home in junk before bant, since that lets you hold lingering souls in your yard to pump your token once your opponent gets around to dealing with the original Elemental, punishing sweepers far more rapidly than current incarnations of bant could. Garruk Relentless may also see an uptick in play to go alongside this guy. Junk with souls and Voice seems like a nightmare for the aggro decks like goblins and zoo. With sweeper resistance and hand disruption I would expect it to supplant Jund as the fair midrange deck of choice. Voice might do well in the bant stifle tempo decks however I think it will compete for spots with good but non-essential spells like spell pierce or tarmogoyf/scavenging ooze. More generally, using it as an alternative to gaddock teeg has been suggested. I might run one of each, not sure. Not turning off terminus and being able to be bounced by Jace for no value would be a big concern. If you play one of each, do you cut scryb ranger... that doesn't seem right. Yeah, really not sure where is bant home should be. Guess I will have to sleeve him up and see.
As for bant tempo, I think my proposed list from #98 is a good place for people to start if they want to sleeve up a new horizons deck. I just wasn't jazzed enough by the deck to run it out again after my mediocre deathrite tempo attempt.
^^ Not sure if there's attitude behind this or not. Given the context to which you supported Jace, even he fails to win the game immediately. I've won many games where the opponent played Jace and I still won. He isn't as overpowering as you'd think. In general, any non-combo finisher fails to make the cut. Aggro/Midrange just doesn't auto-win with a specific card. Jace is great (don't get me wrong), but he doesn't win the game on the spot. Hell, if that's the angle you're going for, Elspeth is entirely more relevant as you can windmill-slam her and use the "jump"-pump to end games immediately.
Depending upon how you build your list, I can see Jace, Elspeth, and KotR as "must answer" cards. I honestly find Elspeth to be one of the few "must answer" cards of the format. No, it's not Sneak Attack into Emmy/Grisseldaddy, but you're going to be punched in the face once she comes out.
@point of the deck:
Yes, it's understood Bant is creature-focused. Was looking to stir the pot with the framework from my previous post more than deal with attitude here.
So you really have 3 jaces and maybe an elspeth that may seem to be "must answers". Knights I don't believe is a must answer on the turn it was summoned because he can be plowed.
So in essence, 4 cards. Is it worth playing that new guy to have a little niche plan for 4 of your cards?
I understand if you play the natural order route where they are forced to answer, but not in this case.
When do people really side in counters against us anyways.
Voice is a nice zenith target, a good creature to sac if you are worried about your NO being countered, or can act as reasonable counter spell insurance if you would rather play that line. Pretty standard GSZ NO shell here, 10 ways to get progenitus out of your hand, decent count on accelerators, and GSZ bullets. I still think Voice is probably best suited for Junk in Legacy, but this might be a bant option.
Thoughts?
Voice is a nice zenith target, a good creature to sac if you are worried about your NO being countered, or can act as reasonable counter spell insurance if you would rather play that line. Pretty standard GSZ NO shell here, 10 ways to get progenitus out of your hand, decent count on accelerators, and GSZ bullets. I still think Voice is probably best suited for Junk in Legacy, but this might be a bant option.
Thoughts?
I like that idea as a placement for that card - one of the weaknesses of NO is getting it countered, and being 2-for-1'd, and Voice is a pretty reasonable card in those match-ups, both in replacing itself and gaining value on their counters/instant-speed removal.
Unfortunately, the other main weakness is faster combo decks (which is nearly all combo decks), where Voice remains underwhelming and NO is not good.
I would cut the 4th NO, the Birds (9th mana dork def. has diminishing returns), Scryb Ranger, and maybe Pridemage for 1 Rhox War Monk and 2-3 Forces. (War Monk keeps the creature count okay for Voice, is blue for Force, green for NO, helps your better late game take over, and is just awesome). I'd also swap out the 2nd Arbor to something more dependable, with only 21 lands, a high curve, and a good selection of NO targets at present.
Yeah, Voice is an interesting card and finding it a home will be an adventure. Generally those changes seem reasonable though I think Force of Will is a reach given the spell mix (with monk 14 U before force). Spell pierce would be where I would go I think if more counters were needed main. Can't do anything if they get you T1 on the play, but so be it. Haven't played with warmonk in ages, but I like him.
I completely agree that NO is too slow to be played as a combo deck. I think of it as midrange trump deck (akin to Nic Fit) and set a lot of sideboard space to dealing with the T1/2 decks. I build my NO decks (rightly or wrongly) with the idea of consistency and pressure in mind, hence my tendency for lots of mana guys, a broad tool kit and all 4 NOs. If I don't think there is a NO opening, I just pressure with some other spell. This design space and play style means counter magic loses value in the deck (why I didn't play it in my deathrite NO deck last month). When I was first building that deck and concerned about opponents counter magic I tried playing some counters of my own but they made my draws more clunky making the deck feel weaker not stronger. I even went so far as to try Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a way to protect GSZ and NO, but even with knight and crop rotation that card is often terrible.
This question of how to deal with fast decks is another reason I think Voice of Resurgence will do well in Junk, since it can then be paired with hand disruption, so that its anti-spell clause becomes much more relevant.
Just threw together a giest, snap caster mage, sfm bant deck. Running nobles and pridemages to stack exalted. It's raw as hell, but ran fairly smooth. Stifling the angel tokens sac trigger is Gucci as hell
I'm beat but ill post the list tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Just threw together a giest, snap caster mage, sfm bant deck. Running nobles and pridemages to stack exalted. It's raw as hell, but ran fairly smooth. Stifling the angel tokens sac trigger is Gucci as hell
I'm beat but ill post the list tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Post a list.
Notional thoughts:
Geist, SCM, and Batterskull are all T3 plays, which is a clunky curve.
Stifle+Geist is a fine synergy, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Stifle isn't a good card by itself. And my guess is, if you're playing Stoneforge Mystic, Stifle isn't a good enough card by itself. So if you're going for a "combo," Dreadnaught is much better.
Notional thoughts:
Geist, SCM, and Batterskull are all T3 plays, which is a clunky curve.
Stifle+Geist is a fine synergy, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Stifle isn't a good card by itself. And my guess is, if you're playing Stoneforge Mystic, Stifle isn't a good enough card by itself. So if you're going for a "combo," Dreadnaught is much better.
I also want to see this list. Stifle with Geist is nice but needs the right shell.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Hey guys, running off memory as the deck is in my teammates case. This was just throwing together over beers because my buddy has a super fetish with Geist of Saint Traft. The stone forges were super meh, I was thinking maybe spell snares as a catch all? Mother of runes were fatastic at punching geist thru defense and holding off goyfs. Played against Jund and Team America
Hey guys, running off memory as the deck is in my teammates case. This was just throwing together over beers because my buddy has a super fetish with Geist of Saint Traft. The stone forges were super meh, I was thinking maybe spell snares as a catch all? Mother of runes were fatastic at punching geist thru defense and holding off goyfs. Played against Jund and Team America
4 noble
3 Geist
3 knight
3 pridemage
3 snapcaster
4 mother of runes
3 stone forge
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plow
2 jitte
No offense, that list looks awful lol. I think the idea of centering bant around geist can indeed happen. That particular list would be rolled so hard against a ton of decks. YOu also mentioned SCM, which wouldn't fit at all into this thing. The SCM + bant + geist therefore has to be a pipe dream. I was wondering where they all came together (honestly curious how to pull that off). It can't be the above list.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
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You know what the problem with daze is...they can pay it with 1 mana. You are not a mana denial deck. You run 3 wastelands, no stifles. You are a mid range deck that allows people to play on and get some sort of board state. Chances are, your opponent will have more than 2 lands in play.
Dont' get me wrong, daze is awesome turn 1-2 when you drop a hierarch and daze their first play. However after turn 2, daze becomes nearly useless. You would be happy to play a late game daze. If not, it becomes force of will fodder which you can just use another type of counter in its place. Hell negate works better as a one of than daze.
I know I hate it when I draw a daze past turn 4. I do love it in my opening hand.
As for knight and maze, playing 61 cards just seems odd. Out of the deck, what can you really cut to make things fit? Maze of ith is most likely the first card you think of removing before lowing mana count, creature counts and spell count.
There are only 60. Please count again.
I know your list has 60. I am talking about why i cut maze, which was a response to finding open slots in the deck and the first card to go is maze.
I still dont' like not having answers to artifacts and enchantments game1
Artifacts and enchantments, yup, no direct answer game one, other than counter them, or ignore them and make the opponent more concerned about your threats.
Edit: Venser is also a one turn answer, which should not be overlooked.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I would disagree with both and re-affirm the OP responses on these - running any number of Daze in most Bant lists (including this one) is at least on the table, and running 1 has more effect that 1 card usually does (as it gets feared/respected) without the downsides which Daze has in multiples. It's okay to not love Daze, and it's okay to love it and want more, but there's nothing weird about 1. Also, it probably fits best in SFM decks, among Bant decks, as it fills a nice niche in the weird mana curve.
Maze is really really good. Double-use of Knight, tutorable "removal," etc.
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I don't love Bant-Blade as a deck, and prefer the GSZ package. And if I were playing Stoneforge and Swords, I would seriously consider Geist.
Looking at this list, a couple thoughts:
-I would run basic Forest over Plains. If you're in mana trouble, the ability to reliably cast Hierarch/Library is more important.
-MD Venser seems wimpy unless you really fear SnT, and I don't think you should. I'd prefer 3rd Clique or a Geist - particularly with maindeck Sword.
-I had to triple-take that Sideboard to confirm the lack of E Tutor. I would run 1 over the second Canonist. I would rather have E Tutor than Canonist in my opener against Storm, and it (obviously) turns on a bunch more options (like EE if they already Goblins you, or tutoring any piece against GY decks, etc.)
-Even better than E Tutor is Crop Rotation. Besides the obvious Bog, Karakas, and even Maze, Rotating for Ruins->recurring EE/Canonist is really good against Dredge/Storm, where you'd already benefit from instant-speed Grave-wipe/Legend-bounce.
-I would cut maindeck Jitte - 3 swords is a lot.
I still hate daze. I like it in merfolk when I have more land destruction and playing at a faster pace. I dislike it even more as a 1 of
As for maze, I replaced it with scryb ranger. I remember now. It has more utility than maze. Semi fog with dryad arbor, wasteland proof to your dual lands, untaps, brainstorm more cards by getting rid of extra lands.
Much more useful than maze. Bryan Hawley (my name is bryan too), doesn't run maze either. I suspect for the same reason I am having.
Out of the 3 swords, I would actually not drop the jitte. I would drop feast and famine. He already lacks artifact removal. The jitte would most likely be used to remove an opponent's jitte. I mean 75% of the time, my qasali is removing a jitte
A deck with 3 Wastelands and 4 Knights has more land destruction than a deck with 4 Wastelands.
Scryb Ranger does not have more utility. Maze is semi-fog by itself and gives a free Knight activation every turn - ramping mana, getting Karakas/Ruins to recur other tricks, or Wasting them out of the game. Maze is also more resilient.
Probably above all, Maze is tutorable. When fair matches come down to creature chess, being able to search up Maze is back-breaking. Like if I said, "Drop Jitte for a Path, it's more consistent at removing guys when you need to," you might righly reply "Ya but it takes over the game and you're a SFM deck!" Even if Ranger were better card for card (it isn't) this is a Knight deck.
Actually dropping Jitte as 3rd quip is predicated on having Geist; Jitte is of course better w/out Geist.
I would like to test it, but I suspect it to be another sort of Vexing Devil, where the opponent's ability to ignore or play around its circumstantially-dominant effect will relativize the actual power of the card. It's not proactive enough. Many decks obviously just ignore it and try to win, and it doesn't do any real hating. Against UWx decks which are most likely to want to play spells on your turn, exiling him nets you no value. Most interactive decks, which might fear its output if the game gets long enough, can cast most their instants on their turn.
So it's interesting, but I don't think it passes the "would I rather have a Tarmogoyf?" test (especially not at WG, when I like blue cards so much).
True on the geist. Can't swing in with a 2/2
Still debating on whether removing maze is a good idea.
scryb ranger goes hand in hand with dryad arbor. If you run an arbor, its pretty useful to run scryb. But if you don't run an abor, you can go maze.
re: new guy.
There is nothing in this deck that is a must answer on our turn. You can wait until your (opponent) untap to stop one of our guys.
The only exception is jace.
I don't know what you mean. Bant has several "answer this immediately or die" cards.
@limbodave81:
I'd make GoST the focus. I think that's a reactive gamplan you're pushing. I hate Venser in general and Clique is outclassed by Geist right now. Geist requires a tweaking though:
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3x Geist (2-3 is where you wanna be. 4 is excessive and he's a legend)
2x Jace (3rd in SB)
2x Elspeth (aids everyone. overwhelms with GoST as him and angel-lady now fly)
With such a steep curve, 4x Hierarch is a must
/11 core
Spells
4x StP
4x Brainstorm
10x Control (forces, snares, pierces, daze, stifle, bounce, more removal)
/18 support spells
At 29 slots, I'd then ask myself if I'm going to abuse Geist in a midrange or tempo shell. I ran SFM.dec at 22 lands. I run Maverick at 23. That's an additional 8-9 dedicated threats. This is where we can go KotR, Clique, SFM + toys, Goyf, Library, etc. Your deck is blue-centric -- but can run off smoother curves/gameplans. You can go Hierarch -> geist -> jace. You can sit back with Swords -> SFM (and protect). You can drop Hierarch -> stifle + Goyf.
A neo-New Horizons could be achieved if you go force/stifle/daze + kotr/goyf/geist. Bant-blade can still happen.
Don't discredit Elspeth. She can straight-up end games. Even board-states suddenly go in your favor. I also hear she plays well with Jace.
*Use this as a point of discussion. I'd like to hear how others feel about this.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
The point is this deck is ultimately a creature deck. To win, you must get an untap phase then attack.
What does this deck have that the opponent MUST answer on our turn before the opponent goes back to the main phase? The only one I can think of is Jace. And against decks like RUG, they can actually let jace resolve and bolt his ass on the opponent's turn.
There is nothing that is an immediate threat like sneak attack, tendrils belcher where YOU MUST counter it NOW or die.
^^ Not sure if there's attitude behind this or not. Given the context to which you supported Jace, even he fails to win the game immediately. I've won many games where the opponent played Jace and I still won. He isn't as overpowering as you'd think. In general, any non-combo finisher fails to make the cut. Aggro/Midrange just doesn't auto-win with a specific card. Jace is great (don't get me wrong), but he doesn't win the game on the spot. Hell, if that's the angle you're going for, Elspeth is entirely more relevant as you can windmill-slam her and use the "jump"-pump to end games immediately.
Depending upon how you build your list, I can see Jace, Elspeth, and KotR as "must answer" cards. I honestly find Elspeth to be one of the few "must answer" cards of the format. No, it's not Sneak Attack into Emmy/Grisseldaddy, but you're going to be punched in the face once she comes out.
@point of the deck:
Yes, it's understood Bant is creature-focused. Was looking to stir the pot with the framework from my previous post more than deal with attitude here.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Has anyone else sleeved up a tempo version? I tried a (admittedly bad (103)) version of the tempo bant at the beginning of the month. Should have played the list I proposed in 98. Even so, it showed me that, while there is something there, as I described during 103, it isn't really to my taste. Before that I ran GSZ decks for a while, and those were fun but again, aren't where I personally want to be week in, week out. Though they are a nice change of pace. My favorite thing about Bant is that I can sit down, play tropical island against an opponent who knows me and they still have little idea what they need to be concerned about.
Ultimately though, I prefer stoneblade as my base bant deck. I like having a myriad of effects and instant speed interactions. People seem to have overlooked the most important part of my Monday post:
I was really hoping people might actually take it as a starting place and go out and sleeve up some cards.
Why do I play 3 equipment, 1 Venser, and 1 daze, because they play well in those numbers. I had a hypothesis, I tested it, I like the results, I told you about it. If you have played this style of bant and it didn't work for you, or specific cards underperformed, tell us why and which? I played a tournament this weekend, which I won, that was rather peculiar in that it was lots of dredge and combo, with very few far decks. To try to explain why I like this deck, here is an example from this weekend: During the tournament I played against three different dredge decks(M:3-0, G:6-1 against them). Dredge is supposed to auto win game 1, but it isn't so against this deck. Just in game 1's: I killed my own noble with jitte counters to clear bridges, I force of willed a T1 LED when he was on 5 cards with a funny look on his face, I dazed a dread return, I fetched wastelands on 3 straight turns with knights... this deck has so many options that let you interact with everything your opponents are doing. It lets you out play them. Have you ever Venser locked a stoneblade player? Clique locked a storm player? It feels great, and there is very little they can do about it. If you like having the biggest guy and winning quickly, my build of Bant is clearly not going to be fun for you. That's cool, tell us about the builds you do play and why you like them.
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@Warden
Voice of Resurgence does seem like it could be quite strong in a GSZ build, though I suspect it will find a home in junk before bant, since that lets you hold lingering souls in your yard to pump your token once your opponent gets around to dealing with the original Elemental, punishing sweepers far more rapidly than current incarnations of bant could. Garruk Relentless may also see an uptick in play to go alongside this guy. Junk with souls and Voice seems like a nightmare for the aggro decks like goblins and zoo. With sweeper resistance and hand disruption I would expect it to supplant Jund as the fair midrange deck of choice. Voice might do well in the bant stifle tempo decks however I think it will compete for spots with good but non-essential spells like spell pierce or tarmogoyf/scavenging ooze. More generally, using it as an alternative to gaddock teeg has been suggested. I might run one of each, not sure. Not turning off terminus and being able to be bounced by Jace for no value would be a big concern. If you play one of each, do you cut scryb ranger... that doesn't seem right. Yeah, really not sure where is bant home should be. Guess I will have to sleeve him up and see.
As for bant tempo, I think my proposed list from #98 is a good place for people to start if they want to sleeve up a new horizons deck. I just wasn't jazzed enough by the deck to run it out again after my mediocre deathrite tempo attempt.
So you really have 3 jaces and maybe an elspeth that may seem to be "must answers". Knights I don't believe is a must answer on the turn it was summoned because he can be plowed.
So in essence, 4 cards. Is it worth playing that new guy to have a little niche plan for 4 of your cards?
I understand if you play the natural order route where they are forced to answer, but not in this case.
When do people really side in counters against us anyways.
1x Birds of Paradise
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Progenitus
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Vendilion Clique
2x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (11)
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (21)
2x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Chill
1x Detention Sphere
1x Empyrial Archangel
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Tormod's Crypt
Voice is a nice zenith target, a good creature to sac if you are worried about your NO being countered, or can act as reasonable counter spell insurance if you would rather play that line. Pretty standard GSZ NO shell here, 10 ways to get progenitus out of your hand, decent count on accelerators, and GSZ bullets. I still think Voice is probably best suited for Junk in Legacy, but this might be a bant option.
Thoughts?
I like that idea as a placement for that card - one of the weaknesses of NO is getting it countered, and being 2-for-1'd, and Voice is a pretty reasonable card in those match-ups, both in replacing itself and gaining value on their counters/instant-speed removal.
Unfortunately, the other main weakness is faster combo decks (which is nearly all combo decks), where Voice remains underwhelming and NO is not good.
I would cut the 4th NO, the Birds (9th mana dork def. has diminishing returns), Scryb Ranger, and maybe Pridemage for 1 Rhox War Monk and 2-3 Forces. (War Monk keeps the creature count okay for Voice, is blue for Force, green for NO, helps your better late game take over, and is just awesome). I'd also swap out the 2nd Arbor to something more dependable, with only 21 lands, a high curve, and a good selection of NO targets at present.
I completely agree that NO is too slow to be played as a combo deck. I think of it as midrange trump deck (akin to Nic Fit) and set a lot of sideboard space to dealing with the T1/2 decks. I build my NO decks (rightly or wrongly) with the idea of consistency and pressure in mind, hence my tendency for lots of mana guys, a broad tool kit and all 4 NOs. If I don't think there is a NO opening, I just pressure with some other spell. This design space and play style means counter magic loses value in the deck (why I didn't play it in my deathrite NO deck last month). When I was first building that deck and concerned about opponents counter magic I tried playing some counters of my own but they made my draws more clunky making the deck feel weaker not stronger. I even went so far as to try Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a way to protect GSZ and NO, but even with knight and crop rotation that card is often terrible.
This question of how to deal with fast decks is another reason I think Voice of Resurgence will do well in Junk, since it can then be paired with hand disruption, so that its anti-spell clause becomes much more relevant.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
Instants [12]
2 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Bojuka Bog
I'm beat but ill post the list tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Post a list.
Notional thoughts:
Geist, SCM, and Batterskull are all T3 plays, which is a clunky curve.
Stifle+Geist is a fine synergy, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Stifle isn't a good card by itself. And my guess is, if you're playing Stoneforge Mystic, Stifle isn't a good enough card by itself. So if you're going for a "combo," Dreadnaught is much better.
I also want to see this list. Stifle with Geist is nice but needs the right shell.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
8 fetch
3 tundra
3 tropical
2 savannah
4 wastes
1 karakas
4 noble
3 Geist
3 knight
3 pridemage
3 snapcaster
4 mother of runes
3 stone forge
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plow
2 jitte
No offense, that list looks awful lol. I think the idea of centering bant around geist can indeed happen. That particular list would be rolled so hard against a ton of decks. YOu also mentioned SCM, which wouldn't fit at all into this thing. The SCM + bant + geist therefore has to be a pipe dream. I was wondering where they all came together (honestly curious how to pull that off). It can't be the above list.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod