Round 1: Esper Stoneblade (1-2)
One the draw game 1. Solid opening hand: 2 land, noble, knight, lingering souls, plow, Jace. First four draw steps were land. He had a counter for my knight and jace, and stuck jitte and his own souls to deal with mine. Game 2 I played T2 knight to draw out a counter and stuck T3 jace. I ground him out with jace and exalted beat down. Game 3, mull to 6 on the draw, speculative keep: fetch, deathrite, geist, 2 clique, jace. Didn't come together.
Round 2: Zombardment (2-0)
Game one, brainstorm protects my hand from too much disruption, lingering souls stalls the board, Progenitus around T7 is enough to win. Game 2 his hand never came together, T5 progenitus gets a scoop.
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-0)
This guy normally plays miracles, so I don't know why the change today. On the play game 1, T2 knight, he can't deal with Karakas, and I take it quickly. Game 2 he T1 show and tell, and being a luck sack, I have the detention sphere in my opener. He never put together another threat. This matchup doesn't feel bad, but I don't think it will be this easy most of the time.
Round 4: Dredge (2-0)
Game one on the play (which really mattered): T3 NO, clearing 3 bridges form his graveyard, he can't race. Game 2: Crypt, knight, dryad arbor and land in opener. T1 arbor and crypt, T3 knight and crypt activation, T5 sac arbor to knight to clear 2 freshly dredged bridges. T6 bog. Beat him down pretty easily. Again, my opener was very tough for him to beat.
Round 5: Mono-white Stax (2-1)
I had never played against this before, so it was an adventure. Game one he wasteland crucible locked me. Game 2 he locked the board but couldn't interact with my mana. I stuck a jace and took it to ultimate. Game 3 T6 progenitus, with a stax on 2 in play. He followed up with another stax. Land off the top let me cast a knight, which gave me enough permanents to have Progenitus survive and kill him. Had he drawn a wasteland at any point in Game 3 I was cooked, so that was a bit lucky on my part.
Overall, it was very solid. Broke my own rule about black cards (other than deathrite) in the main, but the two decays were very good, so happy with that decision. Round one loss was tough on my breakers. Second pridemage maindeck would have been nice against esper and stax. I had a lot of the right answers all day. I could definitely see some of those going differently with slightly different draws, but it was nice that all 5 rounds were interactive and I felt I was in all the matches.
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade (1-2)
One the draw game 1. Solid opening hand: 2 land, noble, knight, lingering souls, plow, Jace. First four draw steps were land. He had a counter for my knight and jace, and stuck jitte and his own souls to deal with mine. Game 2 I played T2 knight to draw out a counter and stuck T3 jace. I ground him out with jace and exalted beat down. Game 3, mull to 6 on the draw, speculative keep: fetch, deathrite, geist, 2 clique, jace. Didn't come together.
Round 2: Zombardment (2-0)
Game one, brainstorm protects my hand from too much disruption, lingering souls stalls the board, Progenitus around T7 is enough to win. Game 2 his hand never came together, T5 progenitus gets a scoop.
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-0)
This guy normally plays miracles, so I don't know why the change today. On the play game 1, T2 knight, he can't deal with Karakas, and I take it quickly. Game 2 he T1 show and tell, and being a luck sack, I have the detention sphere in my opener. He never put together another threat. This matchup doesn't feel bad, but I don't think it will be this easy most of the time.
Round 4: Dredge (2-0)
Game one on the play (which really mattered): T3 NO, clearing 3 bridges form his graveyard, he can't race. Game 2: Crypt, knight, dryad arbor and land in opener. T1 arbor and crypt, T3 knight and crypt activation, T5 sac arbor to knight to clear 2 freshly dredged bridges. T6 bog. Beat him down pretty easily. Again, my opener was very tough for him to beat.
Round 5: Mono-white Stax (2-1)
I had never played against this before, so it was an adventure. Game one he wasteland crucible locked me. Game 2 he locked the board but couldn't interact with my mana. I stuck a jace and took it to ultimate. Game 3 T6 progenitus, with a stax on 2 in play. He followed up with another stax. Land off the top let me cast a knight, which gave me enough permanents to have Progenitus survive and kill him. Had he drawn a wasteland at any point in Game 3 I was cooked, so that was a bit lucky on my part.
Overall, it was very solid. Broke my own rule about black cards (other than deathrite) in the main, but the two decays were very good, so happy with that decision. Round one loss was tough on my breakers. Second pridemage maindeck would have been nice against esper and stax. I had a lot of the right answers all day. I could definitely see some of those going differently with slightly different draws, but it was nice that all 5 rounds were interactive and I felt I was in all the matches.
You are a brave man playing NO without counters.
You also don't have wastelands to fuel the Deathrites. So you're basically betting on them wasting you or both players fetching. In this case, I think you should not run a 4 of deathrite. As good as it is, you don't have the consistency to support double U or Double G for jace and NO, respectively. So in essence, you only run 3 mana dorks for consistency.
You also don't have wastelands to fuel the Deathrites. So you're basically betting on them wasting you or both players fetching. In this case, I think you should not run a 4 of deathrite. As good as it is, you don't have the consistency to support double U or Double G for jace and NO, respectively. So in essence, you only run 3 mana dorks for consistency.
But good job on the finish.
No counters: My thinking was that most esper blades are only running 3-5 counters right now, and I wanted to be threat dense in game one against most other decks (sure, it means I can get blown out on T1/2 by a bunch of decks, I tried to tilt the board towards those a bit). Esper durdles enough that with GSZ, knight, clique and jace I can present difficult decisions for them to test the waters for counters. I didn't miss main deck counters yesterday. Just played it like it was a maverick deck and went for it when I thought their was an opening.
Deathrites and manabase: Deathrites are lightning rods and anyone that sticks around for 2 activations (of any type) has made a big impact (plus it blocks T1 Lackey, which while minor for most folks, matters at my store). I don't think the mana supports wastelands, but as I have said, mana bases are not my strong suit. I built it with the intention of playing through 1-2 wastelands from my opponent (lots of mana sources) rather than fighting their mana. Tundra was the least useful land, so one waste could be ok in that spot. 8 fetch lands in an environment where everyone runs fetches and wastelands made deathrites mana active most of the time (though I did mulligan a hand with 2 duals, 2 deathrite and 3 high ends). 4 GSZ are also effectively llanowar elf with arbor in the deck, though I never cast it this way yesterday. Mana guys seemed to do their jobs well, and against zombardment and dredge the shaman's mana ability was a secondary function anyway, as it is in many other matchups. Casting spells (GG, GW, GB, UU) was never a problem. 3 trops with all 8 fetches able to get them, plus the mana dorks felt fine. I played previous similar versions against RUG delver which actively attack my mana and mana dorks. Some cards did get stranded in my hand in that one, but deathrite punched way above his weight in that matchup.
You are probably right on your points, this is just what I was thinking and how I approached this build.
What changes would you suggest?
-2 deathrite, -1 goyf/scryb ranger, +2 pierce, +1 noble?
-1 Tundra, -1 Savannah, +2 wasteland?
Something else?
Edit: quick note, Scryb Ranger and Knight are both cryptic mana sources, which actually do matter. Scryb ranger is definitely a pet card for me. I love that card, and there are few feelings in magic as good as flashing it in and returning a green dual with an opponents wasteland trigger on the stack. Anyway, with the GSZ package I could also see cutting a knight as a possible way to make room for counters, mana guys or lands. Like I said, input on this style of deck is definitely appreciated.
Land
1 Dryad Arbor - To be honest, with 4 colors, I wouldn't even use this. Get another fetch for black/green or black/blue for your 4 deathrite shamans. This has bit you in the butt i'm certain.
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea - you have over 24 green dependant cards. I'm certain this has bit you in the butt.
1 Bayou
2 Savannah - you have 7 white dependant cards
3 Tropical Island - Up it to 4. since you need double UU and double GG
You have 9 blue cards, 5 of which need double UU.
You have 4 black cards, lingering souls and abrupt decay. I am counting deathrite as green, since all you really care about is summoning it before thinking of combat tricks. you have 5 black sources. So this is a bit too much compared to what you need for white.
I'm also betting that goyf was probably not what you fetch at any time with green sun z. You probably have a goyf and just cast it if you have it in your hand.
In that case, you should get rid of it for a mana dork (birds for consistency), or another knight for beater.
Current source count (counting fetches, not including creatures or zeniths):
16 green sources
14 blue sources
13 white sources
11 black sources (I have no idea what you mean by I have 5 black sources)
- I am certain I want 2 basics and Karakas.
- Taking Dryad arbor out of this deck is ridiculous. A NO deck without it is just hurting itself. With 4 zeniths and 7 green fetches it is also very strong as an acceleration spell, instant speed creature for combat or edict protection.
- I also consider my sideboard when building my mana base, which is why I had made the white slightly heavier than might be necessary for the main deck.
- Neither of your certainties has come to pass, but I am happy to make improvements.
- For my black lands, I want the scrubland to complement the Tropical Islands and I want the bayou to directly support the deathrite.
- Cutting Savannah and Underground Sea for Tropical Island and a fetch would give me:
Source count here:
17 green sources
15 blue sources
13 white sources
11 black sources
It also gives me an 8th arbor fetch. (Note: I have the strand because I wanted a 5th way into basic island)
Does this seem better to people?
Edit:
I have goyf to hold the ground on 2 (GSZ 3). It did that job nicely against zombardment and in testing against goblins. It also is kind enough to do the same against other goyfs. Initially that spot was the second pridemage. I am a little reluctant to go to more mana guys as they, even noble, are not good late game draws, and a diversity of GSZ targets has benefit. Adding another noble makes sense if I cut a deathrite but I have not found an compelling argument for that, especially with the addition of another fetch to the mana base.
The wrong emphasis is being made. Really quick, I'll give my 2 cents on this interesting 4color shaman NO deck. First, 4 color shaman can work in legacy. my recommendation is to forgo cute things and run fetches, duals, Karakas and arbor. period. the basics are ruining the consistency. If you go 4 color, commit. otherwise clean up the deck to 3 colors. More fetch also supports DRS who ties the list together. If he does early, you are screwed. Running birds shows me you're banking on hitting colors. DRS x4 or stop playing the cute 4color game and cut him to fix the mana and run Nobles x4.
Pick 3 main colors. I have an issue looking at hodge podge lists. I would determine if I wanted GW+ blue or +black. The rationale is that you look like a fool having competing colors. UU and GW and GB and WB color requirements all tossed together is no bueno. For example brainstorm is a splashable auxiliary card. Jace and Clique are not. Lingering Souls is borderline. Decay is also borderline.
Focus the deck. NO-bant can go zenith, no, green ppl, counters. Your list has no true focus. You did well, but on a more serious level, you need consistency as a whole deck. I would focus down what I want to do. Personally the lingering souls thing doesn't fit my plan of green beats. I also want protection. If you don't want counters, then go more NO-junk and drop the blue crap holding you back OR just play junk. NO needs some protection otherwise you're asking to be 3-for-1ed. Counters also help protect against thing you don't want to see like opposing sweeper spells or jaces.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
The rationale is that you look like a fool having competing colors.
I do appreciate you taking time to give me input, this however made me laugh (especially when written in pink :)). That is one rationale I truly don't care about.
Agree souls are not a purpose driven inclusion. They are meant to buy time, so you are right, cards that add consistency in their place should eliminate the need for them and drive the deck forward in a more powerful way. Thanks.
With a high amount of Combo in the metagame, has anyone considered reviving Bant as New Horizons? I don't know what the team would be -- given the wonderful new inclusions to the cardpool since NH was a thing -- but the ability to have stife, force, waste, filter blue cards, EE, and efficient threats looks like it could do well.
I'm thinking something like KotR, Snapcaster, X would be the starting point. Perhaps goyf as the 3rd card?
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
has anyone considered reviving Bant as New Horizons?
I played with this idea a bit about two months ago now. The deck really wants to be proactive on 1, so cantrip or delver/mongoose style threat are better than nobles for pressure, but noble makes the three drops much better. This tension between wanting cheep threats and playing three drops is definitely something that must be considered. Even with the full load of cantrips, the number of threes gets high quickly (snap + X, knight and geist). You also must contend (as does the UWR delver deck) with the fact that your primary removal spell gives your opponent life, so you are actually counting to 22-26 rather than 20 in most games. Geist is my preferred beater here, since it is hard to deal with and ups the blue count though 3 might be enough. Knight felt awkward in this context the little I played with it. From that point it became a question of how many delver, snapcaster, goyf or knight. I played this list a few times in friendly testing sessions, and it might be an ok place to start but I am not a big fan (rather run the RUG or UWR delver decks instead for the land control tempo decks).
Other cards I thought about: 1 of spell snare was my last cut (I like diverse spell suites with snapcaster). Knight makes a lands package in the board possible. V Clique is probably more what you want than knight however, since it is interactive, disruptive and flash. Knight being WG is also slightly awkward. Cutting knight for clique would also likely mean cutting the karakas, probably for one of these: spell snare, thought scour, shadow of a doubt or another fetch.
So yeah, there is something here but I don't know what it needs to really come together.
I played with this idea a bit about two months ago now. The deck really wants to be proactive on 1, so cantrip or delver/mongoose style threat are better than nobles for pressure, but noble makes the three drops much better. This tension between wanting cheep threats and playing three drops is definitely something that must be considered. Even with the full load of cantrips, the number of threes gets high quickly (snap + X, knight and geist). You also must contend (as does the UWR delver deck) with the fact that your primary removal spell gives your opponent life, so you are actually counting to 22-26 rather than 20 in most games. Geist is my preferred beater here, since it is hard to deal with and ups the blue count though 3 might be enough. Knight felt awkward in this context the little I played with it. From that point it became a question of how many delver, snapcaster, goyf or knight. I played this list a few times in friendly testing sessions, and it might be an ok place to start but I am not a big fan (rather run the RUG or UWR delver decks instead for the land control tempo decks).
Other cards I thought about: 1 of spell snare was my last cut (I like diverse spell suites with snapcaster). Knight makes a lands package in the board possible. V Clique is probably more what you want than knight however, since it is interactive, disruptive and flash. Knight being WG is also slightly awkward. Cutting knight for clique would also likely mean cutting the karakas, probably for one of these: spell snare, thought scour, shadow of a doubt or another fetch.
So yeah, there is something here but I don't know what it needs to really come together.
I'll tell you why this deck doesn't come together. With a tempo deck, you want to hurt them ASAP, and ending the game ASAP. Swords to Plowshares doesn't let you do this.
I'll tell you why this deck doesn't come together. With a tempo deck, you want to hurt them ASAP, and ending the game ASAP. Swords to Plowshares doesn't let you do this.
And why use white when Red is better in this case
Warden's notion of Bant New Horizons is not unreasonable, it has been a deck in the past and UWR tempo with swords and geist are doing quite well (UWR, 2nd DC Open). That deck opts for swords and bolts and fewer creatures. The list I played around with wasn't good, but there is potential.
I'll tell you why this deck doesn't come together. With a tempo deck, you want to hurt them ASAP, and ending the game ASAP. Swords to Plowshares doesn't let you do this.
And why use white when Red is better in this case
You're missing a middle step:
With a tempo deck, you want to neutralize everything they play while riding a threat to victory, which becomes much harder to do effectively as the game goes on, so you want to end the game ASAP.
RUG does this obviously well, but the reach which burn provides isn't intrinsically necessary, it just covers the gap to 20 when they're able to stop your less-impressive-in-the-midgame threats.
A shift to white forces you to make several inter-related moves. Bolt->StP means you need to get more damage in, which means Mongoose is not reliable and Delver is (at least) worse, though Knight ups the power level of your guys and the ability to waste them out. It (or Geist) also means you need more lands.
In a vacuum, this is likely a worse tempo deck (though don't underestimate the power of Knight-wasting some one).
In a real life meta, New Horizons maintains a very strong (perhaps better, post-board, with White's silver bullets) combo matchup, has distinct advantages in a tempo mirror if it doesn't get blown out, and fares better in fair match-ups which progress into the mid/late game (I regularly won grindy matches against Maverick, for example, where RUG has to really hope it never goes grindy). I don't think New Horizons is a better deck or better tempo deck than New Horizons, but it definitely does some things better.
I've played RUG in several events and New Horizons in a few more and prefer the latter - even when RUG is better, I would rather end a game while I'm on the way "up," further pressing a Knight->Waste advantage and beating down with increasingly large dudes or ticking up walkers, rather than topdecking Ponder->Bolt for the last 3 points with 2 duals on the board (which is how RUG Delver games often end by design, and are not wrong to do so).
If I were playing this right now, I would probably play 0 Delver, 0 Snapcaster, 0/3 Hierarch, 3-4 Knight, 2-3 Geist, 4 Goyf, 1-2 Elspeth and another 1-2 Geist in the board. 21/22 mana lands (depending on Hierarch), including 1-2 Horizon Canopy, and 1 Maze.
Snapcaster is bad - you don't play enough threats to have weak ones, and 3-drops are crammed. Delver doesn't end the game the way NH needs to. I have under-tested Geist, but was never satisfied with his resilience as a creature. Hierarch or Knight->Maze/Karakas can do something there.
One other note against NH - STP is definitely one of the advantages of this deck among tempo decks (not among Bant builds - it's ironic that NH belongs in a discussion of tempo decks but this is a thread for Bant), but isn't so good right now because of Decay. The former advantage of StP to Bolt was (obviously) the ability to deal with bigger guys. Abrupt Decay, while much less efficient than StP or Bolt, has made cheap+big creatures a much worse way for fair decks to go big. StP on Maverick's Knight or Rug's Goyf was a good tempo play, trading 1 mana for 2-3. StP or Decay on BBE (Decay on the +1, obv.) is not good, as you're only dealing with half of BBE. In this case, Bolt is better than either because it's a split card - the "kill a wimpy guy" half is still bad against bloodbraid, but the "help kill the opponent" half is still quite potent.
In tempo land, StP is a much better card than Decay, but the existence of Decay in the format has shrunken the areas where StP had advantages over Bolt.
Thanks for actually making this a discussion. I was referencing way back to Dave Price's New Horizons, not the tempo geist thing of recent times.
Goyf
Knight
Terravore
Mongoose
----pick 3
That deck may be surprisingly strong at the moment because a few hard counters, stifle, and cantrips is legit. Same can be said for the "tempo" design of stifling fetches (everyone is playing them) + wasteland + late-game cycling horizon canopies to boost the creature force higher. Kobe, swords is still solid in this list because giving them X life doesn't matter as you more than make up the deficit by swinging down for 10+. The alternate builds of maindeck armageddon or EE in the main also support the current meta, which is dependent upon 1 and 2 drops.
Geist is interesting, but I feel he durdles in the true NH shell more than Terravore. However, hexproof is way better than potentially eating abrupt decays and spot removal (ouch). This gets me thinking Snapcaster can come in and clean up stick situations. He's a tiny little annoyance in terms of P/T, but gives you solid lines of play. Brainstorming again? Sure. Stifle another fetch? Of course. Stifle activated abilities? Awesome. Just some things to get the ball rolling.
Delver is interesting. I don't know if he makes the cut because more often than not you'd want to hold back mana. Then again, delver gives you A LOT of pressure and eats their removal. I agree with limbodave81 that the deck has potential. anwei40 also discusses interactions I have been looking at. Having played Maverick for a bit, I do find myself actively wasteland-ing the opponent. That's a line of play NH wants to capitalize off of.
@Noble Hierarch. That's a card I can't figure out. I'm not sure if I want a very aggressive deck or a deck designed to win in the midgame. There are pro's and con's to both. Against combo, however, the lineup of daze/pierce/force/stifle/bstorm (blue thresh shell) is so strong.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Warden's notion of Bant New Horizons is not unreasonable, it has been a deck in the past and UWR tempo with swords and geist are doing quite well (UWR, 2nd DC Open). That deck opts for swords and bolts and fewer creatures. The list I played around with wasn't good, but there is potential.
What is your deck list of choice at the moment?
My deck at this point is a midrange GSZ deck. It hasn't been doing too well at this moment especially on cockatrice, where everyone and their mom plays pox, burn, jund, elves. I cannot find the right cards to fit into the deck to make it competitive.
I can tell you that the matches I have played on cockatrice that bant did quite well was against miracles, RUG, BUG. these decks I can actually stand a chance. Even Sneak Show. Omniscience deck is another story because they seem to pack more counterspells than most. But they also use intuition which means surgical can get them quite well.
I also don't ever lose to dredge.
I still haven't had a good test against Esperblade.
I agree it isnt bad, but sometimes its nice to have the hate game one and blow it out:)
But on subject, I've never liked GSZ bant, I alway thought mav was if you wanted to play GSZ And bant was for NO or SFM package. ( puts on flame suit )
I've been testing Bant Blade and been seeing good results against a variety of decks. Is anyone else still using Stoneforge?
I was running this list until two weeks ago, and really like it. Like any good stoneblade deck it can interact with everything, which makes it fun and challenging to play. I will be back on something like this as soon as I get tired of my current natural order kick.
I agree it isnt bad, but sometimes its nice to have the hate game one and blow it out:)
But on subject, I've never liked GSZ bant, I alway thought mav was if you wanted to play GSZ And bant was for NO or SFM package. ( puts on flame suit )
BTW I hope you guys are running Cliques:)
You gotta have clique if you want a chance against miracles.
I was running this list until two weeks ago, and really like it. Like any good stoneblade deck it can interact with everything, which makes it fun and challenging to play. I will be back on something like this as soon as I get tired of my current natural order kick.
I have a pretty similar list, but I have Ancestral Visions and Thrun in my board as my grind it out plan. Thrun's been amazing so far as so few decks can interact with him effectively, especially Esper.
... A shift to white forces you to make several inter-related moves. Bolt->StP means you need to get more damage in, which means Mongoose is not reliable and Delver is (at least) worse, though Knight ups the power level of your guys and the ability to waste them out.
...In a vacuum, this is likely a worse tempo deck (though don't underestimate the power of Knight-wasting some one).
...If I were playing this right now, I would probably play 0 Delver, 0 Snapcaster, 0/3 Hierarch, 3-4 Knight, 2-3 Geist, 4 Goyf, 1-2 Elspeth and another 1-2 Geist in the board. 21/22 mana lands (depending on Hierarch), including 1-2 Horizon Canopy, and 1 Maze.
Snapcaster is bad - you don't play enough threats to have weak ones, and 3-drops are crammed. Delver doesn't end the game the way NH needs to....
You make some excellent points. Snap and delver (plus all the ponders to support it) were awkward in the build I tested out. This looks like it will play more like a stoneforge deck than a tempo deck. Thanks for the insight.
How do you value academy ruins in this type of deck? In mystic decks with equipment and EE it is very strong. I assume since ruins is more oriented towards control rather than disruptive that it doesn't fit well in this sort of build (plus the only singleton artifact).
Thanks for actually making this a discussion. I was referencing way back to Dave Price's New Horizons, not the tempo geist thing of recent times.
Goyf
Knight
Terravore
Mongoose
----pick 3
That deck may be surprisingly strong at the moment because a few hard counters, stifle, and cantrips is legit. Same can be said for the "tempo" design of stifling fetches (everyone is playing them) + wasteland + late-game cycling horizon canopies to boost the creature force higher. Kobe, swords is still solid in this list because giving them X life doesn't matter as you more than make up the deficit by swinging down for 10+. The alternate builds of maindeck armageddon or EE in the main also support the current meta, which is dependent upon 1 and 2 drops.
Geist is interesting, but I feel he durdles in the true NH shell more than Terravore. However, hexproof is way better than potentially eating abrupt decays and spot removal (ouch). This gets me thinking Snapcaster can come in and clean up stick situations. He's a tiny little annoyance in terms of P/T, but gives you solid lines of play. Brainstorming again? Sure. Stifle another fetch? Of course. Stifle activated abilities? Awesome. Just some things to get the ball rolling.
Delver is interesting. I don't know if he makes the cut because more often than not you'd want to hold back mana. Then again, delver gives you A LOT of pressure and eats their removal. I agree with limbodave81 that the deck has potential. anwei40 also discusses interactions I have been looking at. Having played Maverick for a bit, I do find myself actively wasteland-ing the opponent. That's a line of play NH wants to capitalize off of.
@Noble Hierarch. That's a card I can't figure out. I'm not sure if I want a very aggressive deck or a deck designed to win in the midgame. There are pro's and con's to both. Against combo, however, the lineup of daze/pierce/force/stifle/bstorm (blue thresh shell) is so strong.
Playing Goyf/Knight/Terravore is extremely weak to grave hate and lots of removal (my stock lineup actually used to be 4 Goyf, 4 Geist, 2 Clique, 1 Terravore). You might literally be unable to beat a Deathrite Shaman or Rest in Peace. Geist solves that, is a reasonable dude in most creature matches, and can pitch to FoW if he's a redundant clock in the combo game. He's also specifically very good against UW, which is an absolutely stinking dreadful match, and regaining popularity (I used to board Luminarch Ascension as my Hail Mary).
Hierarch can play Aggro and Tempo roles quite well, actually as it gets to your bigger guys quicker, compensates for Daze, boosts the clock, wins Goyf wars. Obviously it's a bad top deck if you don't have anything else going on, but there's a reason Price's original list played Mox Diamond, and it does some of the same.
You make some excellent points. Snap and delver (plus all the ponders to support it) were awkward in the build I tested out. This looks like it will play more like a stoneforge deck than a tempo deck. Thanks for the insight.
How do you value academy ruins in this type of deck? In mystic decks with equipment and EE it is very strong. I assume since ruins is more oriented towards control rather than disruptive that it doesn't fit well in this sort of build (plus the only singleton artifact).
This does play like a Tempo deck - you want to be negating their early plays, landing a threat, and riding it to victory. Compared with RUG, you are obviously a turn slower in playing threats and perhaps stingier with early Dazes, but the strategic approach is very similar. This is particularly apparent with an active Knight.
I've tried Ruins maindeck or in the board before - it's really slow and takes over a blue land, of which I really prefer 15. Sometimes it is great, but def. depends on what you're expecting. Many times it's good, simply hitting EE is good enough.
Paople didn't seem too into tournament reports in this forum, so briefly I played this in three local tournaments over the past two weeks:
Sun (3/24) 3-1, fourth
Fri (3/29) 3-1, third
Sun (3/31) 1-2-1, 12th (laid an egg with this one)
This deck seems to succeed in large part because it pressures your opponent in multiple ways (they have deal with creatures on board, hold up counters for jace or NO, get through Clique, removal, GSZ toolkit, and filtering which limit their options). If you are looking for something fun for a while this is a blast. When people play around you having counters, or don't in game2/3 you get some very easy wins.
For this week:
Since the locals are getting wise to my shenanigans now, I am going to put together the new horizons style deck for this coming week. People at the shop are bring out the combo decks again so that should be a nice foil. I started with test list from anwei40 and currently like this:
I put in 4 nobles because I like the slightly lower land count and the acceleration/exalted, etc that it adds. However in the dark 4 is probably too many (anwei40's suggested 3 is probably closer to right). I am running these largely as gamesmanship, since the locals are starting to recognize my old deck and an open on tropical island into noble will cause them to walk into daze and force a bit more readily. There maybe situations where I hold noble on T1 if I have pierce or stifle in hand but that will be matchup and hand dependent. Also feels like a deck where nobles come out a fair bit, especially if there are some lands in the board for Knight.
What do people think are good and bad matchups for this style deck? I don't have a good idea of where the weaknesses are and how I should tilt my sideboard. Input would be great.
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Since getting on this thread I decided to go back to my NO Bant lists with a couple of tweaks based on the thread input. Played this yesterday:
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
Sorcery [10]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
4 Natural Order
Instant [9]
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land [21]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Detention Sphere
1 Krosan Grip
M: 4-1 (4rth)
G: 9-3
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade (1-2)
One the draw game 1. Solid opening hand: 2 land, noble, knight, lingering souls, plow, Jace. First four draw steps were land. He had a counter for my knight and jace, and stuck jitte and his own souls to deal with mine. Game 2 I played T2 knight to draw out a counter and stuck T3 jace. I ground him out with jace and exalted beat down. Game 3, mull to 6 on the draw, speculative keep: fetch, deathrite, geist, 2 clique, jace. Didn't come together.
Round 2: Zombardment (2-0)
Game one, brainstorm protects my hand from too much disruption, lingering souls stalls the board, Progenitus around T7 is enough to win. Game 2 his hand never came together, T5 progenitus gets a scoop.
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-0)
This guy normally plays miracles, so I don't know why the change today. On the play game 1, T2 knight, he can't deal with Karakas, and I take it quickly. Game 2 he T1 show and tell, and being a luck sack, I have the detention sphere in my opener. He never put together another threat. This matchup doesn't feel bad, but I don't think it will be this easy most of the time.
Round 4: Dredge (2-0)
Game one on the play (which really mattered): T3 NO, clearing 3 bridges form his graveyard, he can't race. Game 2: Crypt, knight, dryad arbor and land in opener. T1 arbor and crypt, T3 knight and crypt activation, T5 sac arbor to knight to clear 2 freshly dredged bridges. T6 bog. Beat him down pretty easily. Again, my opener was very tough for him to beat.
Round 5: Mono-white Stax (2-1)
I had never played against this before, so it was an adventure. Game one he wasteland crucible locked me. Game 2 he locked the board but couldn't interact with my mana. I stuck a jace and took it to ultimate. Game 3 T6 progenitus, with a stax on 2 in play. He followed up with another stax. Land off the top let me cast a knight, which gave me enough permanents to have Progenitus survive and kill him. Had he drawn a wasteland at any point in Game 3 I was cooked, so that was a bit lucky on my part.
Overall, it was very solid. Broke my own rule about black cards (other than deathrite) in the main, but the two decays were very good, so happy with that decision. Round one loss was tough on my breakers. Second pridemage maindeck would have been nice against esper and stax. I had a lot of the right answers all day. I could definitely see some of those going differently with slightly different draws, but it was nice that all 5 rounds were interactive and I felt I was in all the matches.
You are a brave man playing NO without counters.
You also don't have wastelands to fuel the Deathrites. So you're basically betting on them wasting you or both players fetching. In this case, I think you should not run a 4 of deathrite. As good as it is, you don't have the consistency to support double U or Double G for jace and NO, respectively. So in essence, you only run 3 mana dorks for consistency.
But good job on the finish.
No counters: My thinking was that most esper blades are only running 3-5 counters right now, and I wanted to be threat dense in game one against most other decks (sure, it means I can get blown out on T1/2 by a bunch of decks, I tried to tilt the board towards those a bit). Esper durdles enough that with GSZ, knight, clique and jace I can present difficult decisions for them to test the waters for counters. I didn't miss main deck counters yesterday. Just played it like it was a maverick deck and went for it when I thought their was an opening.
Deathrites and manabase: Deathrites are lightning rods and anyone that sticks around for 2 activations (of any type) has made a big impact (plus it blocks T1 Lackey, which while minor for most folks, matters at my store). I don't think the mana supports wastelands, but as I have said, mana bases are not my strong suit. I built it with the intention of playing through 1-2 wastelands from my opponent (lots of mana sources) rather than fighting their mana. Tundra was the least useful land, so one waste could be ok in that spot. 8 fetch lands in an environment where everyone runs fetches and wastelands made deathrites mana active most of the time (though I did mulligan a hand with 2 duals, 2 deathrite and 3 high ends). 4 GSZ are also effectively llanowar elf with arbor in the deck, though I never cast it this way yesterday. Mana guys seemed to do their jobs well, and against zombardment and dredge the shaman's mana ability was a secondary function anyway, as it is in many other matchups. Casting spells (GG, GW, GB, UU) was never a problem. 3 trops with all 8 fetches able to get them, plus the mana dorks felt fine. I played previous similar versions against RUG delver which actively attack my mana and mana dorks. Some cards did get stranded in my hand in that one, but deathrite punched way above his weight in that matchup.
You are probably right on your points, this is just what I was thinking and how I approached this build.
What changes would you suggest?
-2 deathrite, -1 goyf/scryb ranger, +2 pierce, +1 noble?
-1 Tundra, -1 Savannah, +2 wasteland?
Something else?
Edit: quick note, Scryb Ranger and Knight are both cryptic mana sources, which actually do matter. Scryb ranger is definitely a pet card for me. I love that card, and there are few feelings in magic as good as flashing it in and returning a green dual with an opponents wasteland trigger on the stack. Anyway, with the GSZ package I could also see cutting a knight as a possible way to make room for counters, mana guys or lands. Like I said, input on this style of deck is definitely appreciated.
Land
1 Dryad Arbor - To be honest, with 4 colors, I wouldn't even use this. Get another fetch for black/green or black/blue for your 4 deathrite shamans. This has bit you in the butt i'm certain.
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea - you have over 24 green dependant cards. I'm certain this has bit you in the butt.
1 Bayou
2 Savannah - you have 7 white dependant cards
3 Tropical Island - Up it to 4. since you need double UU and double GG
You have 9 blue cards, 5 of which need double UU.
You have 4 black cards, lingering souls and abrupt decay. I am counting deathrite as green, since all you really care about is summoning it before thinking of combat tricks. you have 5 black sources. So this is a bit too much compared to what you need for white.
I'm also betting that goyf was probably not what you fetch at any time with green sun z. You probably have a goyf and just cast it if you have it in your hand.
In that case, you should get rid of it for a mana dork (birds for consistency), or another knight for beater.
16 green sources
14 blue sources
13 white sources
11 black sources (I have no idea what you mean by I have 5 black sources)
- I am certain I want 2 basics and Karakas.
- Taking Dryad arbor out of this deck is ridiculous. A NO deck without it is just hurting itself. With 4 zeniths and 7 green fetches it is also very strong as an acceleration spell, instant speed creature for combat or edict protection.
- I also consider my sideboard when building my mana base, which is why I had made the white slightly heavier than might be necessary for the main deck.
- Neither of your certainties has come to pass, but I am happy to make improvements.
- For my black lands, I want the scrubland to complement the Tropical Islands and I want the bayou to directly support the deathrite.
- Cutting Savannah and Underground Sea for Tropical Island and a fetch would give me:
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
Source count here:
17 green sources
15 blue sources
13 white sources
11 black sources
It also gives me an 8th arbor fetch. (Note: I have the strand because I wanted a 5th way into basic island)
Does this seem better to people?
Edit:
I have goyf to hold the ground on 2 (GSZ 3). It did that job nicely against zombardment and in testing against goblins. It also is kind enough to do the same against other goyfs. Initially that spot was the second pridemage. I am a little reluctant to go to more mana guys as they, even noble, are not good late game draws, and a diversity of GSZ targets has benefit. Adding another noble makes sense if I cut a deathrite but I have not found an compelling argument for that, especially with the addition of another fetch to the mana base.
Pick 3 main colors. I have an issue looking at hodge podge lists. I would determine if I wanted GW+ blue or +black. The rationale is that you look like a fool having competing colors. UU and GW and GB and WB color requirements all tossed together is no bueno. For example brainstorm is a splashable auxiliary card. Jace and Clique are not. Lingering Souls is borderline. Decay is also borderline.
Focus the deck. NO-bant can go zenith, no, green ppl, counters. Your list has no true focus. You did well, but on a more serious level, you need consistency as a whole deck. I would focus down what I want to do. Personally the lingering souls thing doesn't fit my plan of green beats. I also want protection. If you don't want counters, then go more NO-junk and drop the blue crap holding you back OR just play junk. NO needs some protection otherwise you're asking to be 3-for-1ed. Counters also help protect against thing you don't want to see like opposing sweeper spells or jaces.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I do appreciate you taking time to give me input, this however made me laugh (especially when written in pink :)). That is one rationale I truly don't care about.
Agree souls are not a purpose driven inclusion. They are meant to buy time, so you are right, cards that add consistency in their place should eliminate the need for them and drive the deck forward in a more powerful way. Thanks.
I'm thinking something like KotR, Snapcaster, X would be the starting point. Perhaps goyf as the 3rd card?
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I played with this idea a bit about two months ago now. The deck really wants to be proactive on 1, so cantrip or delver/mongoose style threat are better than nobles for pressure, but noble makes the three drops much better. This tension between wanting cheep threats and playing three drops is definitely something that must be considered. Even with the full load of cantrips, the number of threes gets high quickly (snap + X, knight and geist). You also must contend (as does the UWR delver deck) with the fact that your primary removal spell gives your opponent life, so you are actually counting to 22-26 rather than 20 in most games. Geist is my preferred beater here, since it is hard to deal with and ups the blue count though 3 might be enough. Knight felt awkward in this context the little I played with it. From that point it became a question of how many delver, snapcaster, goyf or knight. I played this list a few times in friendly testing sessions, and it might be an ok place to start but I am not a big fan (rather run the RUG or UWR delver decks instead for the land control tempo decks).
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
Land (20)
4x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
4x Wasteland
Other cards I thought about: 1 of spell snare was my last cut (I like diverse spell suites with snapcaster). Knight makes a lands package in the board possible. V Clique is probably more what you want than knight however, since it is interactive, disruptive and flash. Knight being WG is also slightly awkward. Cutting knight for clique would also likely mean cutting the karakas, probably for one of these: spell snare, thought scour, shadow of a doubt or another fetch.
So yeah, there is something here but I don't know what it needs to really come together.
I'll tell you why this deck doesn't come together. With a tempo deck, you want to hurt them ASAP, and ending the game ASAP. Swords to Plowshares doesn't let you do this.
And why use white when Red is better in this case
Warden's notion of Bant New Horizons is not unreasonable, it has been a deck in the past and UWR tempo with swords and geist are doing quite well (UWR, 2nd DC Open). That deck opts for swords and bolts and fewer creatures. The list I played around with wasn't good, but there is potential.
What is your deck list of choice at the moment?
You're missing a middle step:
With a tempo deck, you want to neutralize everything they play while riding a threat to victory, which becomes much harder to do effectively as the game goes on, so you want to end the game ASAP.
RUG does this obviously well, but the reach which burn provides isn't intrinsically necessary, it just covers the gap to 20 when they're able to stop your less-impressive-in-the-midgame threats.
A shift to white forces you to make several inter-related moves. Bolt->StP means you need to get more damage in, which means Mongoose is not reliable and Delver is (at least) worse, though Knight ups the power level of your guys and the ability to waste them out. It (or Geist) also means you need more lands.
In a vacuum, this is likely a worse tempo deck (though don't underestimate the power of Knight-wasting some one).
In a real life meta, New Horizons maintains a very strong (perhaps better, post-board, with White's silver bullets) combo matchup, has distinct advantages in a tempo mirror if it doesn't get blown out, and fares better in fair match-ups which progress into the mid/late game (I regularly won grindy matches against Maverick, for example, where RUG has to really hope it never goes grindy). I don't think New Horizons is a better deck or better tempo deck than New Horizons, but it definitely does some things better.
I've played RUG in several events and New Horizons in a few more and prefer the latter - even when RUG is better, I would rather end a game while I'm on the way "up," further pressing a Knight->Waste advantage and beating down with increasingly large dudes or ticking up walkers, rather than topdecking Ponder->Bolt for the last 3 points with 2 duals on the board (which is how RUG Delver games often end by design, and are not wrong to do so).
If I were playing this right now, I would probably play 0 Delver, 0 Snapcaster, 0/3 Hierarch, 3-4 Knight, 2-3 Geist, 4 Goyf, 1-2 Elspeth and another 1-2 Geist in the board. 21/22 mana lands (depending on Hierarch), including 1-2 Horizon Canopy, and 1 Maze.
Snapcaster is bad - you don't play enough threats to have weak ones, and 3-drops are crammed. Delver doesn't end the game the way NH needs to. I have under-tested Geist, but was never satisfied with his resilience as a creature. Hierarch or Knight->Maze/Karakas can do something there.
One other note against NH - STP is definitely one of the advantages of this deck among tempo decks (not among Bant builds - it's ironic that NH belongs in a discussion of tempo decks but this is a thread for Bant), but isn't so good right now because of Decay. The former advantage of StP to Bolt was (obviously) the ability to deal with bigger guys. Abrupt Decay, while much less efficient than StP or Bolt, has made cheap+big creatures a much worse way for fair decks to go big. StP on Maverick's Knight or Rug's Goyf was a good tempo play, trading 1 mana for 2-3. StP or Decay on BBE (Decay on the +1, obv.) is not good, as you're only dealing with half of BBE. In this case, Bolt is better than either because it's a split card - the "kill a wimpy guy" half is still bad against bloodbraid, but the "help kill the opponent" half is still quite potent.
In tempo land, StP is a much better card than Decay, but the existence of Decay in the format has shrunken the areas where StP had advantages over Bolt.
Edit: Example/Test list:
Lands (23)
4 Trop
3 Tundra
8 Fetch
4 Waste
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze
Dudes (13)
4 Goyf
4 Knight
3 Geist
2 Elspeth
Spells (24)
4 StP
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force
3 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
Or add 3 Hierarch and cut EE and 2 of: Knight, Stifle, Tropical Island
Goyf
Knight
Terravore
Mongoose
----pick 3
That deck may be surprisingly strong at the moment because a few hard counters, stifle, and cantrips is legit. Same can be said for the "tempo" design of stifling fetches (everyone is playing them) + wasteland + late-game cycling horizon canopies to boost the creature force higher. Kobe, swords is still solid in this list because giving them X life doesn't matter as you more than make up the deficit by swinging down for 10+. The alternate builds of maindeck armageddon or EE in the main also support the current meta, which is dependent upon 1 and 2 drops.
Geist is interesting, but I feel he durdles in the true NH shell more than Terravore. However, hexproof is way better than potentially eating abrupt decays and spot removal (ouch). This gets me thinking Snapcaster can come in and clean up stick situations. He's a tiny little annoyance in terms of P/T, but gives you solid lines of play. Brainstorming again? Sure. Stifle another fetch? Of course. Stifle activated abilities? Awesome. Just some things to get the ball rolling.
Delver is interesting. I don't know if he makes the cut because more often than not you'd want to hold back mana. Then again, delver gives you A LOT of pressure and eats their removal. I agree with limbodave81 that the deck has potential. anwei40 also discusses interactions I have been looking at. Having played Maverick for a bit, I do find myself actively wasteland-ing the opponent. That's a line of play NH wants to capitalize off of.
@Noble Hierarch. That's a card I can't figure out. I'm not sure if I want a very aggressive deck or a deck designed to win in the midgame. There are pro's and con's to both. Against combo, however, the lineup of daze/pierce/force/stifle/bstorm (blue thresh shell) is so strong.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
My deck at this point is a midrange GSZ deck. It hasn't been doing too well at this moment especially on cockatrice, where everyone and their mom plays pox, burn, jund, elves. I cannot find the right cards to fit into the deck to make it competitive.
I can tell you that the matches I have played on cockatrice that bant did quite well was against miracles, RUG, BUG. these decks I can actually stand a chance. Even Sneak Show. Omniscience deck is another story because they seem to pack more counterspells than most. But they also use intuition which means surgical can get them quite well.
I also don't ever lose to dredge.
I still haven't had a good test against Esperblade.
I still run a SFM list. I cut FoW for mother of runes main deck. I would put the forces in the sideboard. My favortie deck ever
At the moment my local meta has degenerated into basicly, Storm, graveyard decks ( dredge and reanimator ), and show and tell.
So curently i'm playing Countertop miracles with RiP.
Bant isn't bad in that meta.
But on subject, I've never liked GSZ bant, I alway thought mav was if you wanted to play GSZ And bant was for NO or SFM package. ( puts on flame suit )
BTW I hope you guys are running Cliques:)
I was running this list until two weeks ago, and really like it. Like any good stoneblade deck it can interact with everything, which makes it fun and challenging to play. I will be back on something like this as soon as I get tired of my current natural order kick.
You gotta have clique if you want a chance against miracles.
I have a pretty similar list, but I have Ancestral Visions and Thrun in my board as my grind it out plan. Thrun's been amazing so far as so few decks can interact with him effectively, especially Esper.
You make some excellent points. Snap and delver (plus all the ponders to support it) were awkward in the build I tested out. This looks like it will play more like a stoneforge deck than a tempo deck. Thanks for the insight.
How do you value academy ruins in this type of deck? In mystic decks with equipment and EE it is very strong. I assume since ruins is more oriented towards control rather than disruptive that it doesn't fit well in this sort of build (plus the only singleton artifact).
Playing Goyf/Knight/Terravore is extremely weak to grave hate and lots of removal (my stock lineup actually used to be 4 Goyf, 4 Geist, 2 Clique, 1 Terravore). You might literally be unable to beat a Deathrite Shaman or Rest in Peace. Geist solves that, is a reasonable dude in most creature matches, and can pitch to FoW if he's a redundant clock in the combo game. He's also specifically very good against UW, which is an absolutely stinking dreadful match, and regaining popularity (I used to board Luminarch Ascension as my Hail Mary).
Hierarch can play Aggro and Tempo roles quite well, actually as it gets to your bigger guys quicker, compensates for Daze, boosts the clock, wins Goyf wars. Obviously it's a bad top deck if you don't have anything else going on, but there's a reason Price's original list played Mox Diamond, and it does some of the same.
This does play like a Tempo deck - you want to be negating their early plays, landing a threat, and riding it to victory. Compared with RUG, you are obviously a turn slower in playing threats and perhaps stingier with early Dazes, but the strategic approach is very similar. This is particularly apparent with an active Knight.
I've tried Ruins maindeck or in the board before - it's really slow and takes over a blue land, of which I really prefer 15. Sometimes it is great, but def. depends on what you're expecting. Many times it's good, simply hitting EE is good enough.
Sun (3/24) 3-1, fourth
Fri (3/29) 3-1, third
Sun (3/31) 1-2-1, 12th (laid an egg with this one)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Progenitus
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (8)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
Instant (9)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (21)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Detention Sphere
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Krosan Grip
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
This deck seems to succeed in large part because it pressures your opponent in multiple ways (they have deal with creatures on board, hold up counters for jace or NO, get through Clique, removal, GSZ toolkit, and filtering which limit their options). If you are looking for something fun for a while this is a blast. When people play around you having counters, or don't in game2/3 you get some very easy wins.
For this week:
Since the locals are getting wise to my shenanigans now, I am going to put together the new horizons style deck for this coming week. People at the shop are bring out the combo decks again so that should be a nice foil. I started with test list from anwei40 and currently like this:
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land (21)
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
I put in 4 nobles because I like the slightly lower land count and the acceleration/exalted, etc that it adds. However in the dark 4 is probably too many (anwei40's suggested 3 is probably closer to right). I am running these largely as gamesmanship, since the locals are starting to recognize my old deck and an open on tropical island into noble will cause them to walk into daze and force a bit more readily. There maybe situations where I hold noble on T1 if I have pierce or stifle in hand but that will be matchup and hand dependent. Also feels like a deck where nobles come out a fair bit, especially if there are some lands in the board for Knight.
What do people think are good and bad matchups for this style deck? I don't have a good idea of where the weaknesses are and how I should tilt my sideboard. Input would be great.