Shyter and I had a discussion some posts back about Green Sun's Zenith. While I was an avid advocate I have forgone the card completely from my deck. But if you choose to run it I would recommend running 4x because its an all in card in my opinion and maybe even including a Gaea's Cradle. After building and testing the deck on mtgo I found that I wanted more threats and Green Sun was just too slow...I was always fetching a dork with it anyway. So I just went with 4x Deathrite Shamans.
I was also running Knight of the Reliquary at the time but switched them out for Geist of Saint Traft.
Basically, I conceded to Maverick being the more superior Green Sun deck.
After reading through the thread and thinking on it, I wonder if two Dig Through Times and another card would be better for the deck than 3 Treasure Cruises. -3 Cruise +2 DTT +1 GSZ is really appealing to me on paper (which sucks, because I just traded the two DTT's I got in packs for a Windswept Heath . I'll be testing the Cruises regardless on Thursday against a friend that has Delver and Goblins together. I'll let you know how it goes.
Cons:
Sorcery
Only goes down 3 cards
No card quality assurance
Anyone else have any input? I find I like to try to establish a threat and then go into draw/go control mode, so the fact that DTT is an instant is perfect for the turns that they don't do anything or you can't/don't want to respond. The deeper dig is especially great post-board as you have four more chances to find a good hate card.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results from NJ!
Shyter and I had a discussion some posts back about Green Sun's Zenith. While I was an avid advocate I have forgone the card completely from my deck. But if you choose to run it I would recommend running 4x because its an all in card in my opinion and maybe even including a Gaea's Cradle. After building and testing the deck on mtgo I found that I wanted more threats and Green Sun was just too slow...I was always fetching a dork with it anyway. So I just went with 4x Deathrite Shamans.
I was also running Knight of the Reliquary at the time but switched them out for Geist of Saint Traft.
Basically, I conceded to Maverick being the more superior Green Sun deck.
While Geist is probably the fastest clock that we have reasonable access to, I don't feel that I can play it since I've cut the Stone Forge Mystics and Geist is considerably weaker without the swords. The decks really diverge once that call is made. I'm thinking now about the primer post where they pointed out that you had to pick two of: SFM/GSZ/Force/Snapcaster/NO. It looks to me like you want to:
A) play Stoneforge w/equipment and the creatures that go with it with Force of Will
B) play GSZ with Arbor and a mob package with Force of Will
C) play Maverick
Snapcaster Mage and Natural Order seem to have fallen off. I used to play with a NO/Pro package in the sideboard to bring in vs. decks without counters, but with those 15 cards being more and more clutch to fight those couple of decks that just thrash us, that's out too. Snappy could even be thought of as being replaced by the new dredge cards (although still not bad in decks with equipment.) Maybe this is the path to Esper Deathblade as well since the black disruption becomes much more synergistic with the rest of the deck and the green gets weak.
Bah, double-post. Sorry I thought the other one was in between there.
Anyone else have any input? I find I like to try to establish a threat and then go into draw/go control mode, so the fact that DTT is an instant is perfect for the turns that they don't do anything or you can't/don't want to respond. The deeper dig is especially great post-board as you have four more chances to find a good hate card.
I think of the two cards like this:
TC is for a deck that cares as much about number as quality of cards. This typically means decks where most of the cards are functionally the same.This means aggro decks (like burn or goblins) and tempo decks like delver.
DTT is a selection and response tool. It is for the control decks and the combo decks. The guys that need a specific card right now (combo piece or anaser). The delver style decks shouldn't find themselves in this place, and most of their cards do basically the same thing. Deathblade on the other hand has a ton of 1 and 2 ofs that it needs at specific times.
Geist bant is very much in the first camp, while GSZ bant is more likely to be in the second.
The hard part for me to figure out right now, is whether the added instant speed ability, and any benefit of selection (even when most of your cards do similar things) of DTT outweighs the extra card and cheaper cost for the delver style decks of TC. No question in my mind that the slower decks want DTT.
I think of the two cards like this:
TC is for a deck that cares as much about number as quality of cards. This typically means decks where most of the cards are functionally the same.This means aggro decks (like burn or goblins) and tempo decks like delver.
DTT is a selection and response tool. It is for the control decks and the combo decks. The guys that need a specific card right now (combo piece or anaser). The delver style decks shouldn't find themselves in this place, and most of their cards do basically the same thing. Deathblade on the other hand has a ton of 1 and 2 ofs that it needs at specific times.
Geist bant is very much in the first camp, while GSZ bant is more likely to be in the second.
The hard part for me to figure out right now, is whether the added instant speed ability, and any benefit of selection (even when most of your cards do similar things) of DTT outweighs the extra card and cheaper cost for the delver style decks of TC. No question in my mind that the slower decks want DTT.
I'll buy that. Geist/Stoneforge definitely plays more 4-ofs and similar function cards with the exception of the equipment. In that sense, it is like a combo deck in that you really need to get the appropriate Sword of Grins and Giggles onto the Geist. Once there, I expect you switch to control while you try to protect it and ride it for the W.
My gut says it's OK to play with just two DTT, where with Treasure Cruise I feel you'd want three. That would go back to the card quality they both give. With DTT, you're getting two business cards or maybe one and a Brainstorm. With Cruise the odds are you're going to pull at least one land or more. After a Dig, you probably have two turns' worth of something to do so you don't necessarily want to see another one right away. With Cruise, you may be looking for more cards still. Of course for both, if your graveyard is now empty neither is an option.
DTT is a potential panic button as well. With it being an instant, and going down 7 cards, responding to a combo or just something nasty trying to find a piece of counter is a plausible play. If Brainstorming to desperately find a Force of Will is a thing, then Dig would fit the same role. I've been there with BS and have been pleasantly surprised several times.
They're very similar cards, but for me lots of little things are starting to add up in favor of Dig.
I also totally skipped Gaddock Teeg in my sideboard. I'm swapping him in for the Flusterstorm since they come in on the same matches and the singleton FS is just kind of flapping in the breeze in my list.
I'd like to see a "skeleton" of each version--basically just the cards you're going to put in for sure if you start with Stoneforge or with GSZ with all of the personal preferences or meta cards left off. Maybe if no one beats me to it I'll give it a shot tomorrow some time.
I think you would do well to shave 1 tundra for the 4rth daze or another delve card. I played with 20 for a while but in the 8 dork deck I also frequently felt flooded. 19 is smoother. Other than that, I like the smoothness and overall makeup of your deck.
As for price getting you, wasteland is an out. I see you moved away from them. I really like them with the dorks and, like fetches, they quickly fill the yard.
I recently put the extra tundra instead of the last wasteland in my list because I added a bunch of white cards in sideboard, mostly the Kor Firewalker, and 3 white sources for lands was iffy if my opponent drew enough wasteland (I've been on a bad streak with that lately) but I can easily see myself replacing it with a nonland card.
As for wasteland, I just finished cutting it (been shaving some after every big tournament), I don't like it against the current Tier1 decks of the meta and want to make my deck more consistent on its mana.
Anyone else have any input? I find I like to try to establish a threat and then go into draw/go control mode, so the fact that DTT is an instant is perfect for the turns that they don't do anything or you can't/don't want to respond. The deeper dig is especially great post-board as you have four more chances to find a good hate card.
That's one of the aspects I felt about Dig through time, I often play a game of attrition against alot of decks and use up Dig to find 2 more high gas cards to really push forward. I am very patient with my deck playing around cards and baiting my opponent into plays, so being instant really helps stay flexible with your plays by playing with your mana up with spells like Vendillion Clique and counters. Not to mention your decision of which 2 cards to pick can be influenced by what your opponent did on their turn (or the rare cases where you dig for a force of will to counter something on the stack). You also bring a very good point about game 2 and 3 where Dig Through Time is far better when you are looking for your few sideboard cards. At the moment I ended at 2 copies because I felt I’d have to make other tweaks to really enable the delve for more copies. I’m at 6 foil copies so if I had an excuse to put in more I wouldn’t shy away from it
I have recently cut the Geist of Saint Traft for my current meta (and what I likely expect out of New Jersey). It was really weak against elf (trading my Geist of Saint Traft for a nettle Sentinel felt horrible) or anytime a BUG deck had a pair of Deathrite Shaman to combine block. It also doesn't perform well against young pyromancer tokens (same applies to Knight of the reliquary). It's still the best clock you can get, but creature-less combo decks have been on decline recently (or at least it appears to). The Dig Through Time basically took its place in my list as it will eventually find a threat plus a card to back it up. I would suggest Vendillion Clique to anyone picking the deck unless you aren’t accustomed to playing with the card.
Starting to run out of time for last minute tweaks (pondering over adding a 2nd Containment Priest in the sideboard). We are driving from Canada on Thursday and will have Friday to playtest. Usually I’d say id be the guy that might play Bant in the legacy side event with a good amount of foils, but I don’t think that will help find me in a Legacy GP of this magnitude!
Hate bears are a solid avenue of attack for bant, as we are at heart an attacking creature strategy. Even when they don't "just win the game" these guys all generate real value. Don't be scared to trade resources, especially when you are the "bigger" deck. Hate bears and value creatures worth considering for your deck/board (in no particular order):
<2cmc Soul Warden - aggro decks normally need to spend a spell on it. Especially strong v YPyro. Don't think it is quite good enough but worth remembering. Mother of Runes - Hold the fort or beat down, she is excellent either way. Judge's Familiar - My favorite of these. If you play daze, consider these, as they make your dazes much more likely to trade for value. Players frequently play around daze, but playing around a known JF and a daze is normally too much of a tempo loss for an opponent, so your dazes become closer to hard counters.
2 cmc Lone Missionary - effective 2 for 1 v burn/UR delver as it gains 4 life immediately and then blocks/trades/eats another spell. Solid sideboard for the non-GSZ decks. Gaddock Teeg - turns off your forces/PWs/GSZ but is excellent against many combo decks. Excellent in GSZ decks. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Solid against spell based combo and UR delver. Blocks well and slows down the barrage of spells. Generally better in non-blue decks, but can be leveraged with the appropriate build and board plan. Containment Priest - Excellent hate card and flash threat. An excellent 1-3 of in most bant boards. Jötun Grunt - Highly undervalued card. Excellent against delver strategies. 4/4 is a solid clock, excellent blocker that is hard to remove and he selectively disrupts graveyards so he has value against not only the cruise/dig decks but also dredge, loam, reanimator, etc. Often opponents who value their yards effectively take turns off until his upkeep can't be paid so you have to sac him. Getting graveyard decks to take turns off is a huge advantage. A card that gets to hit for 4 to 8 while psuedo-time walking the opponent is excellent. Even a simple exchange of block, kill the attacker and eat a spell so they can kill it off is a favorable 2 for 1. Do remember the cards go back in their deck, so they are not permanently gone. This means you occasionally need to consider carefully what you remove. Against delver decks, adding fetches to their deck is often great, but giving them back brainstorms is less good so when you have the options, consider carefully. Voice of Resurgence - Excellent in GSZ + NO decks. Can be sac'ed and leaves a guy behind, but his stronger use is as a second creature in play when casting NO. This way if the opponent wants to fight over NO you get at least one elemental, allowing you to continue pressuring whether NO resolves or not. It works very much like an aggressive version of defense grid. Kor Firewalker - If this sticks on T2 against UR delver or burn they have very little chance to win and no way to remove it (unless they start boarding dismember or bounce spells). It is a fairly narrow card and can't be fetched. Its power level in the matches it is good in is such that when I go this route I normally like 2 of them. Qasali Pridemage - GSZ allstar. Disenchant + exalted has a ton of value and applications. Scavenging Ooze - Life gain, graveyard disruption, excellent late game threat. Do not overlook. Don't forget he can eat any card in graveyards, not just creatures. Ethersworn Canonist - Excellent against storm and elves. Marginal applications else where. If you are running an ETutor package she is outstanding. Similar to eidolon of rhetoric. Meddling Mage - Well established hate bear. This card is tricky to play if you are not a regular legacy player with a good feel on the metagame and knowledge of opponents' likely deck composition and board plans. Avoid this unless you have a fairly deep legacy knowledge. If you have that knowledge, it is excellent.
>2cmc Knight of the Reliquary - Bant stalwart. Wasteland and Karakas plus 8 fetches are the bare minimum to play her. Additional lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, Academy Ruins, Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, Tower of the Magistrate, and Bojuka Bog add value quickly. Fewer Abrupt Decays running around right now, which is by far the best answer to Knight. Kitchen Finks - another solid 2 for one card, though in most legacy decks the cheaper Lone Missionary will do a better job, the main exception being NO decks. Vendilion Clique - If you don't have them main you probably want at least 1 in the board. It is a threat that is also excellent disruption. If you are not experienced with the card, a few things to remember: Miracles have a trigger while in the opponent's hand, before they can be cast; responding to the trigger allows you to take the miracle. They can be flashed in at any time. It is often correct to do so on your opponent's draw step, after they have drawn their card but before they move to main phase, so you can "screen" their draw. Combined with Karakas you can lock a player's draw step out almost entirely. Casting in response to fetchlands or discard spells can let them sneak in and have added value. Don't forget you can clique yourself to clear bad cards, and draw towards a needed answer. Finally, the thing the most people screw up: Don't declare who the clique is targeting until it resolves and triggers, and if someone cliques against you, don't lay your hand down until they say "target you". Rhox War Monk - Hard to kill, blue and green creature that can cold burn/UR delver decks quickly if they don't have a fireblast or multiple spells immediately. Even then you get excellent value. Excellent in GSZ decks, less so in more aggro approaches. Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Overlooked card but still with respectable legacy value and playability. Out of decay range, beats clique, delver, etc in combat. Turns off opposing deathrite, stoneforge, lavamancer, other dorks, and random other stuff. Biggest weakness is that the decks with the most activated ability creatures are generally white decks which include swords to plowshares and path. Obstinate Baloth - Best in a world of jund and sultai delver w/ Lily, but still a fine card for the bigger versions of bant, such as GSZ + NO. Wilt-leaf Liege - Similar to Baloth but better in the more GW aggro based strategies. Baneslayer Angel - Hard to deal with threat that is seeing a resurgence in control decks that need a way to turn the corner after surviving the early turns. Midrange bant should consider her.
I would add Sylvan Safekeeper to the 1-drop portion. He blanks spot removal at the cost of lands. He fell out of favor, but with people starting to step down their Wasteland counts, he might be move viable.
I also have a soft spot for Rafiq of the Many. He's out of range of Abrupt Decay and Counterbalance (with the exception of turning a Jace) and has immediate board impact. Flashing in a Clique on their turn and then coming back with him in yours to swing for 8 that wasn't there when they said done is good stuff. Also besties with TNN. I slip him in for grins often. Also a NO target if you play it.
On another note, what has everyone seen people board in against us? Those that can would probably bring in cards to counter our counter, REB and the like, as well as Zealous Persecution for the TNNs. Has anyone faced graveyard hate? With the Deathrite Shaman and now the delve cards I can see people main-boarding a piece or two.
On another note, what has everyone seen people board in against us? Those that can would probably bring in cards to counter our counter, REB and the like, as well as Zealous Persecution for the TNNs. Has anyone faced graveyard hate? With the Deathrite Shaman and now the delve cards I can see people main-boarding a piece or two.
Cards of note, people have brought in against me lately: Blood moon, chalice of the void, krosan grip, sulfuric vortex, council's judgment, zealous persecution, supreme verdict, REB/pyroblast, disfigure. I have only seen RiP out of UWR with PiP helm. I have seen a few relics boarded in against me. People seem to leave in a few forces, likely because the threats are hard to answer once on board. I had one guy bring in a humility against me, which did not work out for him as I found my equipment. Nothing terribly surprising. Note the best cards against us are largely enchantments so decays, pridemages, and grips should be things you think about in almost every matchup.
I would add Sylvan Safekeeper to the 1-drop portion. He blanks spot removal at the cost of lands. He fell out of favor, but with people starting to step down their Wasteland counts, he might be move viable.
I also have a soft spot for Rafiq of the Many. He's out of range of Abrupt Decay and Counterbalance (with the exception of turning a Jace) and has immediate board impact. Flashing in a Clique on their turn and then coming back with him in yours to swing for 8 that wasn't there when they said done is good stuff. Also besties with TNN. I slip him in for grins often. Also a NO target if you play it.
On another note, what has everyone seen people board in against us? Those that can would probably bring in cards to counter our counter, REB and the like, as well as Zealous Persecution for the TNNs. Has anyone faced graveyard hate? With the Deathrite Shaman and now the delve cards I can see people main-boarding a piece or two.
I don't think people really expect us in the current meta, only deck really prepared for us is Miracles.
Not sure if Miracles is still on top of the meta but Elspeth, Knight-Errant does well against it.
The decks I've been having the most trouble against are Elves and Titan Post.
-Elves can rebuild extremely fast and has gotten more resilient against Jitte with Reclamation Sage and also Wirewood Symbiote block/bounce tricks. It gets even more difficult when they are on Abrupt Decay...I just never seem to draw the Zealous Persecution soon enough...may add another to the sideboard. ZP is also very good against the meta now as well.
-Titan Post is the Tron of the format. Game one I have to rely on countermagic and Wasteland but if you don't kill them fast they just overrun you. Especially since some of them run Moment's Peace and Pithing Needles main. After board I feel alittle more confidant since I try to Wasteland then Surgical Extraction on a Cloudpost or Glimmerpost.
In summary, I would say whatever the combinations of cards, Zealous Persecution seems to be the goto card against the meta...wouldn't run less than 2x. Or even Supreme Verdict since UR Delver does run a million counterspells.
For the rest of the combo decks like OmniTell, Painter etc I feel we run enough of a counterspell/Clique package to protect ourselves. And for Burn landing the Batterskull as soon as possible fixes that matchup.
Which leaves the other Stoneblade decks and BUG...just have to grind against those..
This really isn't true. They run 8-10 main, 2 of which are blasts. Post board against us, most of them will have ~3 blasts and maybe 4 others. Non-blue spells like ZP and stoneforge are very tough for them post board. Something to keep in mind.
GP NJ Report. Ran my list from post 417, with a few SB changes: -1 Nthief, -1 fluterstorm, -1 relic, -1 CJudgment, -1 Needle, +1 Jace, +2 contaiment priest, +1 abrupt decay, +1 ooze.
Rd 1,2: byes
Rd 3: Elves by a known pilot. Lose close game 1, win game 2 with JF +jitte swinging in on T3. Game 3, mull to 6, keep good hand. He has early thoughtseize to strip my naturally drawn jitte. I flash in CPriest to try to squelch a GSZ, but he answers with decay. This exchange buys me a turn by using his mana. Brainstorm can't find me ZP or Plow. I have active mystic and pierce in hand, so I play a second to fetch batterskull and force him to go off to kill me rather than simply continue beat downs. He lets first glimpse die to pierce, plays second and proceeds to go off and hoof for >60. (M:2-1)
Rd4:Ant. Kept an mystic hand, with only daze as permission. He T1 duresses, then kills me on T2. Game 2: I mull to 5, keep pierce, mystic, and 3 lands. T1 duress, so I pierce it. T2 therapy hits my newly drawn force. Kills me on T3. Oh well. My draws did not line up well here. Matchup isn't horrible, but I wasn't winning this one today. (2-2 not happy with how this started, obviously)
Rd5:UR Delver. Here my draws do line up well and I win easily in two games on the back of plows, mystics and TNNs. Pretty unremarkable match. (3-2)
Rd6:Dredge. Relatively new player, shuffles his deck facing me. Apparently I was the first "blue" deck he faced. Since I knew he was on dredge I kept an otherwise bad hand deathrite, familiar, wasteland, bayou and 3 other lands. Able to pretty well lock out his draws and keep him off mana. G2 was much of the same, but I had far more hate and a better opening hand. (4-2)
Rd7:Burn. Mull to 5 game 1, his draw matches up well and I lose. Mull to 5 in game 2 as well, this time I think I stabilize at 5 but he has the kill in hand, simply didn't go for it the previous turn. I die before untapping with 2 active deathrites and a jitte. bummer, out of day 2. (4-3)
Rd8:Deathblade. Good back and forth match. Nothing of note. PWs, library and decay post board helped me win both postboard games. (5-3)
Rd9: Punishing Jund w/ MD Chains. Game 1 the BBE into chains amused me. TNN plus equipment ground out both games (6-3)
All three losses were affected by mulligans, though I don't think I was beating that elves draw with a solid pilot regardless. Burn is normally a very good matchup, so that one really stung. Glad I had the familiars, as they were solid all day.
Played a win-a-box with a sweet NO Bant brew on day 2 and won that (vs Merfolk, MonoG turbo NO, and grixis delver). Fun weekend, bummed to miss day 2 but ok with the deck choice and play lines.
GP NJ Report. Ran my list from post 417, with a few SB changes: -1 Nthief, -1 fluterstorm, -1 relic, -1 CJudgment, -1 Needle, +1 Jace, +2 contaiment priest, +1 abrupt decay, +1 ooze.
....
Awesome report! Good to see the deck atleast stood up to UR Delver and some of the other established decks. Combo is pretty much hope you have enough permission game 1.
I would leave the main as is but I want 1 more ZP and 1 more card for the midrange/control matchups (notion thief, Ashiok, another Jace, or another clique) in the board. So something like this:
Equip on Familiar: Pretty common since they evasion guys who come down early. JF + equip or exalted often gets in a lot of the early damage before a 3 drop mops up. TNN often sets up as a defender while familiar + equip flies in for damage. I definitely like the familiars in stoneforge decks, but more than that I like them in daze decks. Players often take a turn off to play around daze. With a familiar on board they will rarely play around familiar + daze, which makes daze closer to a hard counter.
#of dorks: I could see going to 7 but I wouldn't go lower. T1 dork (or JF) makes all your draws better, so going below 8 noble+deathrite lowers your percentage of good openers. Late game dorks are not wonderful draws but neither are bad. They are bodies that carry swords, noble off the top affects combat math, and deathrite is a late game clock/disruption spell. If you cut one, which one? Deathrite is a powerful spell in many matchups and noble is the best pure dork every printed.
Mana problems: Not on any hand I kept. If anything I felt a bit flooded from time to time. Really where the number of color sources makes the biggest difference is in what hands are keepable. This is why I really want 9 fetches and no basics - maximizing my color access. My losses this weekend involved deep mulligans, some for mana reasons and some postboard for matchup reasons. I could see cutting 1 wasteland for another dual land to improve the number of keepable hands, but I wouldn't cut fetches, and I wouldn't add another land in place of a spell (a fore mentioned flooding). I know some people eschew wastelands entirely to sure up their mana. I understand this but also want daze and familiar to be active cards, and wasteland helps there. Finding the right balance here is tough. Like I said, I would keep the maindeck I posted, but it might not be the optimal configuration, so if you tinker with it, I would love to hear your experience. Would be interesting to test 10 fetch, 8 dual, 1 forest, no spell lands, or 10 fetch, 8 dual, JF #3. It would certainly increase the number of keepable hands.
Sideboard: Many of the singletons are for slower matchups, so you have time to find the cards you need. Didn't mind this. I would like the second ZP for the UR delver and elves decks, largely because they are faster and finding them in time matters.
Dig: The night before the event I tested dig through time in place of TC to get a feel and see if I was missing out. What I noticed was this: I almost always wanted to cast it as a sorcery. This deck is, at its core, a tempo deck, which taps out frequently and plays with a minimum amount of open mana. Holding open 2 blue is both obvious and, more importantly, awkward while playing out other spells to support your game plan. Since I was casting it as a sorcery, the cheaper card that gave me more resources simply played better. I have played >50 matches (>120 games) with this deck since TC came out and the number of games I have lost after resolving a cruise is very low (5 or 6?); mostly games that the other player already had firm control on.
Thanks for the detailed response, limbo. I've cut my 21st land on your suggestion and I haven't noticed any real difference. I'm only playing three of each dork, but I have Zenith for the Dryad Arbor as a fall back. The only problem is with the Arbor being both a 1/1 and a non-basic land, it's about the most fragile thing in the Legacy universe. I still like it though. It's great to crack a fetch for it EOT and then equip-swing. That catches people by surprise just about every time.
Right now I'm playing Rafiq of the Many in that slot. It should probably be a Noble Hierarch, but I don't have a fourth . Rafiq is always the first card I cut when I lay my deck out to tighten it up, but he's also amazing every time I get him out. I don't remember the last time I lost when I stuck him and wasn't already on my heels. Being both a Zenith target and Force food make him fit the deck so well. He dodges Abrupt Decay and Counterbalance for the most part as well.
I'll have to dig out some Judge's Familiars and give them a shot.
@limbo
When do you side out your Treasure Cruises?
@Xavier
I ran 2 basics (island and forest) and had a total of 22 lands.
I usto flood alot on mtgo, so I cut the island, figure I'd want a basic forest to be able to cast the dorks...which can help me mana fix in the face of blood moon etc.
I also cut a Ponder since I was always siding it out.
This left 2 open slots for 2x Treasure Cruise.
By cutting the one basic I tend to flood less, I haven't been able to resolve TC but once so I still need to test.
I find myself siding them out so I haven't really given them a chance...maybe I'll have more confidence and leave them in the next couple games.
Updated decklist, next update may include 2x Judge's Familiar, but I like the Clique and Pridemage main.
Also may try to replace my gy hate sideboard, maybe a Relic or Nihil.
Krosan Grip could probably be an Abrupt Decay.
@limbo
When do you side out your Treasure Cruises?
In matches were the game is largely decided in the first 3 turns, especially those where they can't reasonably play a long game and I have to interact early. For example, I sometimes cut 1 verse ANT and burn, normally cut 2-3 verse dredge, all three verse belcher. A bit depends on what you want to bring in and what dead cards you have, as well as if your opponent showed any strong tendencies towards a specific play style or if they showed you unique cards.
Going to try 2x Dig Through Time in place of Treasure Cruises.
Haven't been able to cast Cruise much, but I don't feel my current configuration makes it optimal; my curve is too high and most my cheap spells are conditional (unlike Lightning Bolt in other Cruise decks). Also, drawing 3 random cards in this deck isn't as beneficial for the same reason, you're not getting Bolts or Abrupt Decay.
In the first deck, I don't really get the Dig. Obviously it's still a good draw card, but he's playing multiples of everything an no Geist. I mentioned it before that Dig is good there since it's a pseudo-combo; you need the sword on the Geist for the best results. I also don't like the Jitte in the board or the third Clique but maybe it's a high combo meta?
In the second deck, I would expect Dig to be good since there's the Geist/Sword as well as a main-decked card that's typically sideboard: Engineered Explosives. He plays Treasure Cruise though. The 3-of Voice of Resurgence is also interesting. They do work fine in multiples I would suppose. I may have to proxy a few and see how they run. He also runs 3x Stifle without the full Wasteland or Daze count, a Karakas with no way to fetch it, and 61 cards. It seems more like Bant goodstuff than a focused tempo shell...top 8 results though out of 188. /shrug
The third deck has 3 walkers including a Garruk. I'd like to see how that goes and what it's really good against. There is a Detention Sphere and again a Karakas with no other way to fetch than card draw. Are we to the point where we don't need the tutor-type cards to find our singletons? He has an Ooze in there as well. There were only 12 participants in this one I noticed.
Either way, here's a deck (top8 across seas) with Dig that is similar to what I'm trying to do, it runs 3x Vendilon Clique which is interesting as opposed to running Geist. http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/106021
That would be my top8 where I won a dual-land (above ya in Canada). I've put the Umezawa's Jitte in the maindeck before New Jersey, and after the GP made some more tweaks to try out. My current setup
Vendilion Clique has nearly always been amazing for me, especially on turn 2, that I don't see myself lowering that number.
Obviously it's great against combo
-storm can't duress it out, they can't go off with rituals since youd just clique away the Ad Nauseam in response to the 2nd ritual
-in response to Show and Tell or Sneak Attack
But its still very good in most matchups against any Stoneforge Mystic, ambush to trade with am attacking delver, break apart a risky hand some-one kept for 1 particular card, or go on the offensive with exalted triggers
The big thing we miss out on compared to Esper Deathblade is the thoughtseizes, so clique can try and fit that role.
Between 4 maindeck deathrites and 3 Vendilon Clique combo nearly always comes out to a grind game and midrange usually pulls out ahead if it can get there.
...That would be my top8 where I won a dual-land (above ya in Canada). I've put the Umezawa's Jitte in the maindeck before New Jersey, and after the GP made some more tweaks to try out. My current setup
19 lands...that's not too few, I find that I want atleast a basic forest to cast my mana dorks in the face of blood moon and wasteland.
Clique is definitely a good card, I'm still debating whether or not to take out the Geists and run them instead.
I do like that Geist has hexproof and get around alot of True-Name x/-1 hate...but Clique is sorta our "Thoughtseize".
Also do you agree with my assessment with Dig vs Cruise?
What's your logic for running Dig and how often can you reliably cast it?
I still run Jace in the sideboard, but using him less and less...wonder if its better of being a Sylvan Library.
Lastly, any of you guys have a chance to test Containment Priest?
I cant find them anywhere on mtgo
I've cut back on the Deathrites, mostly because I still run GSZ as a 2-of. I find I can get it fairly reliably with the current card draw package. I have one flex slot ATM. Right now I'm having a blast with Rafiq of the Many, but that should probably be a Sylvan Library or just a second Shaman. A couple of other #'s have changed since the last iteration. I'm experimenting with Abrupt Decay main as well. It's doing fine so far, but I don't know if it's optimal.
I haven't gotten my hands on a Containment Priest, but I hope to soon. I expect we'd want two since we have no way to fetch it other than digging.
Shyter and I had a discussion some posts back about Green Sun's Zenith. While I was an avid advocate I have forgone the card completely from my deck. But if you choose to run it I would recommend running 4x because its an all in card in my opinion and maybe even including a Gaea's Cradle. After building and testing the deck on mtgo I found that I wanted more threats and Green Sun was just too slow...I was always fetching a dork with it anyway. So I just went with 4x Deathrite Shamans.
I was also running Knight of the Reliquary at the time but switched them out for Geist of Saint Traft.
Basically, I conceded to Maverick being the more superior Green Sun deck.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Dig Through Time
Pros:
Is an Instant
Goes 4 cards deeper
Gives nearly assured card quality
Cons:
Costs
Gives 1 less card
Minimum 2-drop
Treasure Cruise
Pros:
Gives 3 cards
Can be a 1 drop
Cons:
Sorcery
Only goes down 3 cards
No card quality assurance
Anyone else have any input? I find I like to try to establish a threat and then go into draw/go control mode, so the fact that DTT is an instant is perfect for the turns that they don't do anything or you can't/don't want to respond. The deeper dig is especially great post-board as you have four more chances to find a good hate card.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results from NJ!
While Geist is probably the fastest clock that we have reasonable access to, I don't feel that I can play it since I've cut the Stone Forge Mystics and Geist is considerably weaker without the swords. The decks really diverge once that call is made. I'm thinking now about the primer post where they pointed out that you had to pick two of: SFM/GSZ/Force/Snapcaster/NO. It looks to me like you want to:
A) play Stoneforge w/equipment and the creatures that go with it with Force of Will
B) play GSZ with Arbor and a mob package with Force of Will
C) play Maverick
Snapcaster Mage and Natural Order seem to have fallen off. I used to play with a NO/Pro package in the sideboard to bring in vs. decks without counters, but with those 15 cards being more and more clutch to fight those couple of decks that just thrash us, that's out too. Snappy could even be thought of as being replaced by the new dredge cards (although still not bad in decks with equipment.) Maybe this is the path to Esper Deathblade as well since the black disruption becomes much more synergistic with the rest of the deck and the green gets weak.
Bah, double-post. Sorry I thought the other one was in between there.
I think of the two cards like this:
TC is for a deck that cares as much about number as quality of cards. This typically means decks where most of the cards are functionally the same.This means aggro decks (like burn or goblins) and tempo decks like delver.
DTT is a selection and response tool. It is for the control decks and the combo decks. The guys that need a specific card right now (combo piece or anaser). The delver style decks shouldn't find themselves in this place, and most of their cards do basically the same thing. Deathblade on the other hand has a ton of 1 and 2 ofs that it needs at specific times.
Geist bant is very much in the first camp, while GSZ bant is more likely to be in the second.
The hard part for me to figure out right now, is whether the added instant speed ability, and any benefit of selection (even when most of your cards do similar things) of DTT outweighs the extra card and cheaper cost for the delver style decks of TC. No question in my mind that the slower decks want DTT.
I'll buy that. Geist/Stoneforge definitely plays more 4-ofs and similar function cards with the exception of the equipment. In that sense, it is like a combo deck in that you really need to get the appropriate Sword of Grins and Giggles onto the Geist. Once there, I expect you switch to control while you try to protect it and ride it for the W.
The other thing that Dig Through Time does is that it puts the cards in your hand instead of drawing them, which dodges Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, and anything else that stops/punishes extra card draw. Maybe Chains of Mephistopheles in an over-achieving Pox or BUG deck?
My gut says it's OK to play with just two DTT, where with Treasure Cruise I feel you'd want three. That would go back to the card quality they both give. With DTT, you're getting two business cards or maybe one and a Brainstorm. With Cruise the odds are you're going to pull at least one land or more. After a Dig, you probably have two turns' worth of something to do so you don't necessarily want to see another one right away. With Cruise, you may be looking for more cards still. Of course for both, if your graveyard is now empty neither is an option.
DTT is a potential panic button as well. With it being an instant, and going down 7 cards, responding to a combo or just something nasty trying to find a piece of counter is a plausible play. If Brainstorming to desperately find a Force of Will is a thing, then Dig would fit the same role. I've been there with BS and have been pleasantly surprised several times.
They're very similar cards, but for me lots of little things are starting to add up in favor of Dig.
I also totally skipped Gaddock Teeg in my sideboard. I'm swapping him in for the Flusterstorm since they come in on the same matches and the singleton FS is just kind of flapping in the breeze in my list.
I'd like to see a "skeleton" of each version--basically just the cards you're going to put in for sure if you start with Stoneforge or with GSZ with all of the personal preferences or meta cards left off. Maybe if no one beats me to it I'll give it a shot tomorrow some time.
As for wasteland, I just finished cutting it (been shaving some after every big tournament), I don't like it against the current Tier1 decks of the meta and want to make my deck more consistent on its mana. That's one of the aspects I felt about Dig through time, I often play a game of attrition against alot of decks and use up Dig to find 2 more high gas cards to really push forward. I am very patient with my deck playing around cards and baiting my opponent into plays, so being instant really helps stay flexible with your plays by playing with your mana up with spells like Vendillion Clique and counters. Not to mention your decision of which 2 cards to pick can be influenced by what your opponent did on their turn (or the rare cases where you dig for a force of will to counter something on the stack). You also bring a very good point about game 2 and 3 where Dig Through Time is far better when you are looking for your few sideboard cards. At the moment I ended at 2 copies because I felt I’d have to make other tweaks to really enable the delve for more copies. I’m at 6 foil copies so if I had an excuse to put in more I wouldn’t shy away from it
I have recently cut the Geist of Saint Traft for my current meta (and what I likely expect out of New Jersey). It was really weak against elf (trading my Geist of Saint Traft for a nettle Sentinel felt horrible) or anytime a BUG deck had a pair of Deathrite Shaman to combine block. It also doesn't perform well against young pyromancer tokens (same applies to Knight of the reliquary). It's still the best clock you can get, but creature-less combo decks have been on decline recently (or at least it appears to). The Dig Through Time basically took its place in my list as it will eventually find a threat plus a card to back it up. I would suggest Vendillion Clique to anyone picking the deck unless you aren’t accustomed to playing with the card.
Starting to run out of time for last minute tweaks (pondering over adding a 2nd Containment Priest in the sideboard). We are driving from Canada on Thursday and will have Friday to playtest. Usually I’d say id be the guy that might play Bant in the legacy side event with a good amount of foils, but I don’t think that will help find me in a Legacy GP of this magnitude!
RUGTarmo Twin Modern Combo deck
Hate bears are a solid avenue of attack for bant, as we are at heart an attacking creature strategy. Even when they don't "just win the game" these guys all generate real value. Don't be scared to trade resources, especially when you are the "bigger" deck. Hate bears and value creatures worth considering for your deck/board (in no particular order):
<2cmc
Soul Warden - aggro decks normally need to spend a spell on it. Especially strong v YPyro. Don't think it is quite good enough but worth remembering.
Mother of Runes - Hold the fort or beat down, she is excellent either way.
Judge's Familiar - My favorite of these. If you play daze, consider these, as they make your dazes much more likely to trade for value. Players frequently play around daze, but playing around a known JF and a daze is normally too much of a tempo loss for an opponent, so your dazes become closer to hard counters.
2 cmc
Lone Missionary - effective 2 for 1 v burn/UR delver as it gains 4 life immediately and then blocks/trades/eats another spell. Solid sideboard for the non-GSZ decks.
Gaddock Teeg - turns off your forces/PWs/GSZ but is excellent against many combo decks. Excellent in GSZ decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Solid against spell based combo and UR delver. Blocks well and slows down the barrage of spells. Generally better in non-blue decks, but can be leveraged with the appropriate build and board plan.
Containment Priest - Excellent hate card and flash threat. An excellent 1-3 of in most bant boards.
Jötun Grunt - Highly undervalued card. Excellent against delver strategies. 4/4 is a solid clock, excellent blocker that is hard to remove and he selectively disrupts graveyards so he has value against not only the cruise/dig decks but also dredge, loam, reanimator, etc. Often opponents who value their yards effectively take turns off until his upkeep can't be paid so you have to sac him. Getting graveyard decks to take turns off is a huge advantage. A card that gets to hit for 4 to 8 while psuedo-time walking the opponent is excellent. Even a simple exchange of block, kill the attacker and eat a spell so they can kill it off is a favorable 2 for 1. Do remember the cards go back in their deck, so they are not permanently gone. This means you occasionally need to consider carefully what you remove. Against delver decks, adding fetches to their deck is often great, but giving them back brainstorms is less good so when you have the options, consider carefully.
Voice of Resurgence - Excellent in GSZ + NO decks. Can be sac'ed and leaves a guy behind, but his stronger use is as a second creature in play when casting NO. This way if the opponent wants to fight over NO you get at least one elemental, allowing you to continue pressuring whether NO resolves or not. It works very much like an aggressive version of defense grid.
Kor Firewalker - If this sticks on T2 against UR delver or burn they have very little chance to win and no way to remove it (unless they start boarding dismember or bounce spells). It is a fairly narrow card and can't be fetched. Its power level in the matches it is good in is such that when I go this route I normally like 2 of them.
Qasali Pridemage - GSZ allstar. Disenchant + exalted has a ton of value and applications.
Scavenging Ooze - Life gain, graveyard disruption, excellent late game threat. Do not overlook. Don't forget he can eat any card in graveyards, not just creatures.
Ethersworn Canonist - Excellent against storm and elves. Marginal applications else where. If you are running an ETutor package she is outstanding. Similar to eidolon of rhetoric.
Meddling Mage - Well established hate bear. This card is tricky to play if you are not a regular legacy player with a good feel on the metagame and knowledge of opponents' likely deck composition and board plans. Avoid this unless you have a fairly deep legacy knowledge. If you have that knowledge, it is excellent.
>2cmc
Knight of the Reliquary - Bant stalwart. Wasteland and Karakas plus 8 fetches are the bare minimum to play her. Additional lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, Academy Ruins, Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, Tower of the Magistrate, and Bojuka Bog add value quickly. Fewer Abrupt Decays running around right now, which is by far the best answer to Knight.
Kitchen Finks - another solid 2 for one card, though in most legacy decks the cheaper Lone Missionary will do a better job, the main exception being NO decks.
Vendilion Clique - If you don't have them main you probably want at least 1 in the board. It is a threat that is also excellent disruption. If you are not experienced with the card, a few things to remember: Miracles have a trigger while in the opponent's hand, before they can be cast; responding to the trigger allows you to take the miracle. They can be flashed in at any time. It is often correct to do so on your opponent's draw step, after they have drawn their card but before they move to main phase, so you can "screen" their draw. Combined with Karakas you can lock a player's draw step out almost entirely. Casting in response to fetchlands or discard spells can let them sneak in and have added value. Don't forget you can clique yourself to clear bad cards, and draw towards a needed answer. Finally, the thing the most people screw up: Don't declare who the clique is targeting until it resolves and triggers, and if someone cliques against you, don't lay your hand down until they say "target you".
Rhox War Monk - Hard to kill, blue and green creature that can cold burn/UR delver decks quickly if they don't have a fireblast or multiple spells immediately. Even then you get excellent value. Excellent in GSZ decks, less so in more aggro approaches.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Overlooked card but still with respectable legacy value and playability. Out of decay range, beats clique, delver, etc in combat. Turns off opposing deathrite, stoneforge, lavamancer, other dorks, and random other stuff. Biggest weakness is that the decks with the most activated ability creatures are generally white decks which include swords to plowshares and path.
Obstinate Baloth - Best in a world of jund and sultai delver w/ Lily, but still a fine card for the bigger versions of bant, such as GSZ + NO.
Wilt-leaf Liege - Similar to Baloth but better in the more GW aggro based strategies.
Baneslayer Angel - Hard to deal with threat that is seeing a resurgence in control decks that need a way to turn the corner after surviving the early turns. Midrange bant should consider her.
I also have a soft spot for Rafiq of the Many. He's out of range of Abrupt Decay and Counterbalance (with the exception of turning a Jace) and has immediate board impact. Flashing in a Clique on their turn and then coming back with him in yours to swing for 8 that wasn't there when they said done is good stuff. Also besties with TNN. I slip him in for grins often. Also a NO target if you play it.
On another note, what has everyone seen people board in against us? Those that can would probably bring in cards to counter our counter, REB and the like, as well as Zealous Persecution for the TNNs. Has anyone faced graveyard hate? With the Deathrite Shaman and now the delve cards I can see people main-boarding a piece or two.
Cards of note, people have brought in against me lately: Blood moon, chalice of the void, krosan grip, sulfuric vortex, council's judgment, zealous persecution, supreme verdict, REB/pyroblast, disfigure. I have only seen RiP out of UWR with PiP helm. I have seen a few relics boarded in against me. People seem to leave in a few forces, likely because the threats are hard to answer once on board. I had one guy bring in a humility against me, which did not work out for him as I found my equipment. Nothing terribly surprising. Note the best cards against us are largely enchantments so decays, pridemages, and grips should be things you think about in almost every matchup.
I don't think people really expect us in the current meta, only deck really prepared for us is Miracles.
Not sure if Miracles is still on top of the meta but Elspeth, Knight-Errant does well against it.
The decks I've been having the most trouble against are Elves and Titan Post.
-Elves can rebuild extremely fast and has gotten more resilient against Jitte with Reclamation Sage and also Wirewood Symbiote block/bounce tricks. It gets even more difficult when they are on Abrupt Decay...I just never seem to draw the Zealous Persecution soon enough...may add another to the sideboard. ZP is also very good against the meta now as well.
-Titan Post is the Tron of the format. Game one I have to rely on countermagic and Wasteland but if you don't kill them fast they just overrun you. Especially since some of them run Moment's Peace and Pithing Needles main. After board I feel alittle more confidant since I try to Wasteland then Surgical Extraction on a Cloudpost or Glimmerpost.
In summary, I would say whatever the combinations of cards, Zealous Persecution seems to be the goto card against the meta...wouldn't run less than 2x. Or even Supreme Verdict since UR Delver does run a million counterspells.
For the rest of the combo decks like OmniTell, Painter etc I feel we run enough of a counterspell/Clique package to protect ourselves. And for Burn landing the Batterskull as soon as possible fixes that matchup.
Which leaves the other Stoneblade decks and BUG...just have to grind against those..
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
This really isn't true. They run 8-10 main, 2 of which are blasts. Post board against us, most of them will have ~3 blasts and maybe 4 others. Non-blue spells like ZP and stoneforge are very tough for them post board. Something to keep in mind.
Hopefully it gets back on the map.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Rd 1,2: byes
Rd 3: Elves by a known pilot. Lose close game 1, win game 2 with JF +jitte swinging in on T3. Game 3, mull to 6, keep good hand. He has early thoughtseize to strip my naturally drawn jitte. I flash in CPriest to try to squelch a GSZ, but he answers with decay. This exchange buys me a turn by using his mana. Brainstorm can't find me ZP or Plow. I have active mystic and pierce in hand, so I play a second to fetch batterskull and force him to go off to kill me rather than simply continue beat downs. He lets first glimpse die to pierce, plays second and proceeds to go off and hoof for >60. (M:2-1)
Rd4:Ant. Kept an mystic hand, with only daze as permission. He T1 duresses, then kills me on T2. Game 2: I mull to 5, keep pierce, mystic, and 3 lands. T1 duress, so I pierce it. T2 therapy hits my newly drawn force. Kills me on T3. Oh well. My draws did not line up well here. Matchup isn't horrible, but I wasn't winning this one today. (2-2 not happy with how this started, obviously)
Rd5:UR Delver. Here my draws do line up well and I win easily in two games on the back of plows, mystics and TNNs. Pretty unremarkable match. (3-2)
Rd6:Dredge. Relatively new player, shuffles his deck facing me. Apparently I was the first "blue" deck he faced. Since I knew he was on dredge I kept an otherwise bad hand deathrite, familiar, wasteland, bayou and 3 other lands. Able to pretty well lock out his draws and keep him off mana. G2 was much of the same, but I had far more hate and a better opening hand. (4-2)
Rd7:Burn. Mull to 5 game 1, his draw matches up well and I lose. Mull to 5 in game 2 as well, this time I think I stabilize at 5 but he has the kill in hand, simply didn't go for it the previous turn. I die before untapping with 2 active deathrites and a jitte. bummer, out of day 2. (4-3)
Rd8:Deathblade. Good back and forth match. Nothing of note. PWs, library and decay post board helped me win both postboard games. (5-3)
Rd9: Punishing Jund w/ MD Chains. Game 1 the BBE into chains amused me. TNN plus equipment ground out both games (6-3)
All three losses were affected by mulligans, though I don't think I was beating that elves draw with a solid pilot regardless. Burn is normally a very good matchup, so that one really stung. Glad I had the familiars, as they were solid all day.
Played a win-a-box with a sweet NO Bant brew on day 2 and won that (vs Merfolk, MonoG turbo NO, and grixis delver). Fun weekend, bummed to miss day 2 but ok with the deck choice and play lines.
How would you adjust the deck after this GP?
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Judge's Familiar
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Geist of Saint Traft
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Treasure Cruise
Artifact (2)
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Land (19)
1x Bayou
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
2 Zealous persecution
2 spell pierce
1 containment priest
1 grafdigger's cage
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 abrupt decay
1 batterskull
1 sylvan library
1 scavenging ooze
1 batterskull
1 Karakas / scrubland
1 blue elemental blast
How often did you end up with equipment on the familiars? Do you think it's weak outside of a Stoneforge build?
What about the full set of mana dorks? Did you ever feel flooded by them?
Did you ever have mana problems with just the 15 colored lands?
How did the sideboard work out with all of the singletons and no way to fetch? Were Brainstorm and Treasure Cruise enough to find something?
How did TC run? Ever wish it was Dig Through Time?
#of dorks: I could see going to 7 but I wouldn't go lower. T1 dork (or JF) makes all your draws better, so going below 8 noble+deathrite lowers your percentage of good openers. Late game dorks are not wonderful draws but neither are bad. They are bodies that carry swords, noble off the top affects combat math, and deathrite is a late game clock/disruption spell. If you cut one, which one? Deathrite is a powerful spell in many matchups and noble is the best pure dork every printed.
Mana problems: Not on any hand I kept. If anything I felt a bit flooded from time to time. Really where the number of color sources makes the biggest difference is in what hands are keepable. This is why I really want 9 fetches and no basics - maximizing my color access. My losses this weekend involved deep mulligans, some for mana reasons and some postboard for matchup reasons. I could see cutting 1 wasteland for another dual land to improve the number of keepable hands, but I wouldn't cut fetches, and I wouldn't add another land in place of a spell (a fore mentioned flooding). I know some people eschew wastelands entirely to sure up their mana. I understand this but also want daze and familiar to be active cards, and wasteland helps there. Finding the right balance here is tough. Like I said, I would keep the maindeck I posted, but it might not be the optimal configuration, so if you tinker with it, I would love to hear your experience. Would be interesting to test 10 fetch, 8 dual, 1 forest, no spell lands, or 10 fetch, 8 dual, JF #3. It would certainly increase the number of keepable hands.
Sideboard: Many of the singletons are for slower matchups, so you have time to find the cards you need. Didn't mind this. I would like the second ZP for the UR delver and elves decks, largely because they are faster and finding them in time matters.
Dig: The night before the event I tested dig through time in place of TC to get a feel and see if I was missing out. What I noticed was this: I almost always wanted to cast it as a sorcery. This deck is, at its core, a tempo deck, which taps out frequently and plays with a minimum amount of open mana. Holding open 2 blue is both obvious and, more importantly, awkward while playing out other spells to support your game plan. Since I was casting it as a sorcery, the cheaper card that gave me more resources simply played better. I have played >50 matches (>120 games) with this deck since TC came out and the number of games I have lost after resolving a cruise is very low (5 or 6?); mostly games that the other player already had firm control on.
Right now I'm playing Rafiq of the Many in that slot. It should probably be a Noble Hierarch, but I don't have a fourth . Rafiq is always the first card I cut when I lay my deck out to tighten it up, but he's also amazing every time I get him out. I don't remember the last time I lost when I stuck him and wasn't already on my heels. Being both a Zenith target and Force food make him fit the deck so well. He dodges Abrupt Decay and Counterbalance for the most part as well.
I'll have to dig out some Judge's Familiars and give them a shot.
When do you side out your Treasure Cruises?
@Xavier
I ran 2 basics (island and forest) and had a total of 22 lands.
I usto flood alot on mtgo, so I cut the island, figure I'd want a basic forest to be able to cast the dorks...which can help me mana fix in the face of blood moon etc.
I also cut a Ponder since I was always siding it out.
This left 2 open slots for 2x Treasure Cruise.
By cutting the one basic I tend to flood less, I haven't been able to resolve TC but once so I still need to test.
I find myself siding them out so I haven't really given them a chance...maybe I'll have more confidence and leave them in the next couple games.
Updated decklist, next update may include 2x Judge's Familiar, but I like the Clique and Pridemage main.
Also may try to replace my gy hate sideboard, maybe a Relic or Nihil.
Krosan Grip could probably be an Abrupt Decay.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Treasure Cruise
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest In Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgment
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
In matches were the game is largely decided in the first 3 turns, especially those where they can't reasonably play a long game and I have to interact early. For example, I sometimes cut 1 verse ANT and burn, normally cut 2-3 verse dredge, all three verse belcher. A bit depends on what you want to bring in and what dead cards you have, as well as if your opponent showed any strong tendencies towards a specific play style or if they showed you unique cards.
Haven't been able to cast Cruise much, but I don't feel my current configuration makes it optimal; my curve is too high and most my cheap spells are conditional (unlike Lightning Bolt in other Cruise decks). Also, drawing 3 random cards in this deck isn't as beneficial for the same reason, you're not getting Bolts or Abrupt Decay.
I could see Cruise in a list with Judge's Familiar and Stifle perhaps.
Either way, here's a deck (top8 across seas) with Dig that is similar to what I'm trying to do, it runs 3x Vendilion Clique which is interesting as opposed to running Geist.
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/106021
Here are some other top8 lists with Cruise:
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/101244
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/89167
Thoughts?
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
In the second deck, I would expect Dig to be good since there's the Geist/Sword as well as a main-decked card that's typically sideboard: Engineered Explosives. He plays Treasure Cruise though. The 3-of Voice of Resurgence is also interesting. They do work fine in multiples I would suppose. I may have to proxy a few and see how they run. He also runs 3x Stifle without the full Wasteland or Daze count, a Karakas with no way to fetch it, and 61 cards. It seems more like Bant goodstuff than a focused tempo shell...top 8 results though out of 188. /shrug
The third deck has 3 walkers including a Garruk. I'd like to see how that goes and what it's really good against. There is a Detention Sphere and again a Karakas with no other way to fetch than card draw. Are we to the point where we don't need the tutor-type cards to find our singletons? He has an Ooze in there as well. There were only 12 participants in this one I noticed.
My current setup
Vendilion Clique has nearly always been amazing for me, especially on turn 2, that I don't see myself lowering that number.
Obviously it's great against combo
-storm can't duress it out, they can't go off with rituals since youd just clique away the Ad Nauseam in response to the 2nd ritual
-in response to Show and Tell or Sneak Attack
But its still very good in most matchups against any Stoneforge Mystic, ambush to trade with am attacking delver, break apart a risky hand some-one kept for 1 particular card, or go on the offensive with exalted triggers
The big thing we miss out on compared to Esper Deathblade is the thoughtseizes, so clique can try and fit that role.
Between 4 maindeck deathrites and 3 Vendilon Clique combo nearly always comes out to a grind game and midrange usually pulls out ahead if it can get there.
RUGTarmo Twin Modern Combo deck
19 lands...that's not too few, I find that I want atleast a basic forest to cast my mana dorks in the face of blood moon and wasteland.
Clique is definitely a good card, I'm still debating whether or not to take out the Geists and run them instead.
I do like that Geist has hexproof and get around alot of True-Name x/-1 hate...but Clique is sorta our "Thoughtseize".
Also do you agree with my assessment with Dig vs Cruise?
What's your logic for running Dig and how often can you reliably cast it?
I still run Jace in the sideboard, but using him less and less...wonder if its better of being a Sylvan Library.
Lastly, any of you guys have a chance to test Containment Priest?
I cant find them anywhere on mtgo
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I haven't gotten my hands on a Containment Priest, but I hope to soon. I expect we'd want two since we have no way to fetch it other than digging.
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Vendilion Clique
4x True-Name Nemesis
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Rafiq of the Many
Spells (24)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
3x Daze
2x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (19)
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm