Quote from limbodave81Quick weekend report.
Since getting on this thread I decided to go back to my NO Bant lists with a couple of tweaks based on the thread input. Played this yesterday:
KobeBryan's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creature 1 Birds of Paradise2 Noble Hierarch4 Deathrite Shaman1 Tarmogoyf1 Scryb Ranger1 Scavenging Ooze1 Qasali Pridemage3 Knight of the Reliquary2 Vendilion Clique1 ProgenitusSorcery 4 Green Sun's Zenith2 Lingering Souls4 Natural OrderInstant 4 Brainstorm3 Swords to Plowshares2 Abrupt DecayPlaneswalker 3 Jace, The Mind SculptorLand 1 Dryad Arbor1 Karakas4 Misty Rainforest2 Verdant Catacombs1 Windswept Heath1 Flooded Strand1 Island1 Forest1 Scrubland1 Tundra1 Underground Sea1 Bayou2 Savannah3 Tropical IslandSideboard 3 Ethersworn Canonist1 Qasali Pridemage3 Geist of Saint Traft1 Bojuka Bog2 Tormod's Crypt1 Surgical Extraction2 Spell Pierce1 Detention Sphere1 Krosan Grip
M: 4-1 (4rth)
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade (1-2)
One the draw game 1. Solid opening hand: 2 land, noble, knight, lingering souls, plow, Jace. First four draw steps were land. He had a counter for my knight and jace, and stuck jitte and his own souls to deal with mine. Game 2 I played T2 knight to draw out a counter and stuck T3 jace. I ground him out with jace and exalted beat down. Game 3, mull to 6 on the draw, speculative keep: fetch, deathrite, geist, 2 clique, jace. Didn't come together.
Round 2: Zombardment (2-0)
Game one, brainstorm protects my hand from too much disruption, lingering souls stalls the board, Progenitus around T7 is enough to win. Game 2 his hand never came together, T5 progenitus gets a scoop.
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-0)
This guy normally plays miracles, so I don't know why the change today. On the play game 1, T2 knight, he can't deal with Karakas, and I take it quickly. Game 2 he T1 show and tell, and being a luck sack, I have the detention sphere in my opener. He never put together another threat. This matchup doesn't feel bad, but I don't think it will be this easy most of the time.
Round 4: Dredge (2-0)
Game one on the play (which really mattered): T3 NO, clearing 3 bridges form his graveyard, he can't race. Game 2: Crypt, knight, dryad arbor and land in opener. T1 arbor and crypt, T3 knight and crypt activation, T5 sac arbor to knight to clear 2 freshly dredged bridges. T6 bog. Beat him down pretty easily. Again, my opener was very tough for him to beat.
Round 5: Mono-white Stax (2-1)
I had never played against this before, so it was an adventure. Game one he wasteland crucible locked me. Game 2 he locked the board but couldn't interact with my mana. I stuck a jace and took it to ultimate. Game 3 T6 progenitus, with a stax on 2 in play. He followed up with another stax. Land off the top let me cast a knight, which gave me enough permanents to have Progenitus survive and kill him. Had he drawn a wasteland at any point in Game 3 I was cooked, so that was a bit lucky on my part.
Overall, it was very solid. Broke my own rule about black cards (other than deathrite) in the main, but the two decays were very good, so happy with that decision. Round one loss was tough on my breakers. Second pridemage maindeck would have been nice against esper and stax. I had a lot of the right answers all day. I could definitely see some of those going differently with slightly different draws, but it was nice that all 5 rounds were interactive and I felt I was in all the matches.
Quote from KobeBryanYou are a brave man playing NO without counters.
You also don't have wastelands to fuel the Deathrites. So you're basically betting on them wasting you or both players fetching. In this case, I think you should not run a 4 of deathrite. As good as it is, you don't have the consistency to support double U or Double G for jace and NO, respectively. So in essence, you only run 3 mana dorks for consistency.
But good job on the finish.
Quote from Samyueru
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Quote from WardenThe rationale is that you look like a fool having competing colors.
Quote from Wardenhas anyone considered reviving Bant as New Horizons?
Quote from limbodave81I played with this idea a bit about two months ago now. The deck really wants to be proactive on 1, so cantrip or delver/mongoose style threat are better than nobles for pressure, but noble makes the three drops much better. This tension between wanting cheep threats and playing three drops is definitely something that must be considered. Even with the full load of cantrips, the number of threes gets high quickly (snap + X, knight and geist). You also must contend (as does the UWR delver deck) with the fact that your primary removal spell gives your opponent life, so you are actually counting to 22-26 rather than 20 in most games. Geist is my preferred beater here, since it is hard to deal with and ups the blue count though 3 might be enough. Knight felt awkward in this context the little I played with it. From that point it became a question of how many delver, snapcaster, goyf or knight. I played this list a few times in friendly testing sessions, and it might be an ok place to start but I am not a big fan (rather run the RUG or UWR delver decks instead for the land control tempo decks).
KobeBryan's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creature (16)4x Geist of Saint Traft2x Knight of the Reliquary2x Snapcaster Mage4x Delver of Secrets4x TarmogoyfSorcery (4)4x PonderInstant (20)4x Brainstorm4x Daze4x Force of Will4x Stifle4x Swords to PlowsharesLand (20)4x Flooded Strand1x Island1x Karakas4x Misty Rainforest3x Tropical Island3x Tundra4x Wasteland
Other cards I thought about: 1 of spell snare was my last cut (I like diverse spell suites with snapcaster). Knight makes a lands package in the board possible. V Clique is probably more what you want than knight however, since it is interactive, disruptive and flash. Knight being WG is also slightly awkward. Cutting knight for clique would also likely mean cutting the karakas, probably for one of these: spell snare, thought scour, shadow of a doubt or another fetch.
So yeah, there is something here but I don't know what it needs to really come together.
Quote from KobeBryanI'll tell you why this deck doesn't come together. With a tempo deck, you want to hurt them ASAP, and ending the game ASAP. Swords to Plowshares doesn't let you do this.
And why use white when Red is better in this case
Quote from limbodave81Warden's notion of Bant New Horizons is not unreasonable, it has been a deck in the past and UWR tempo with swords and geist are doing quite well (UWR, 2nd DC Open). That deck opts for swords and bolts and fewer creatures. The list I played around with wasn't good, but there is potential.
What is your deck list of choice at the moment?
Quote from Acardus... It's a build but not really a threat to me.
Quote from Go.decI've been testing Bant Blade and been seeing good results against a variety of decks. Is anyone else still using Stoneforge?
Quote from kingseyI still run a SFM list. I cut FoW for mother of runes main deck. I would put the forces in the sideboard. My favortie deck ever
At the moment my local meta has degenerated into basicly, Storm, graveyard decks ( dredge and reanimator ), and show and tell.
So curently i'm playing Countertop miracles with RiP.
Quote from kingseyI agree it isnt bad, but sometimes its nice to have the hate game one and blow it out:)
But on subject, I've never liked GSZ bant, I alway thought mav was if you wanted to play GSZ And bant was for NO or SFM package. ( puts on flame suit )
BTW I hope you guys are running Cliques:)
Quote from limbodave81I was running this list until two weeks ago, and really like it. Like any good stoneblade deck it can interact with everything, which makes it fun and challenging to play. I will be back on something like this as soon as I get tired of my current natural order kick.
Quote from anwei40... A shift to white forces you to make several inter-related moves. Bolt->StP means you need to get more damage in, which means Mongoose is not reliable and Delver is (at least) worse, though Knight ups the power level of your guys and the ability to waste them out.
...In a vacuum, this is likely a worse tempo deck (though don't underestimate the power of Knight-wasting some one).
...If I were playing this right now, I would probably play 0 Delver, 0 Snapcaster, 0/3 Hierarch, 3-4 Knight, 2-3 Geist, 4 Goyf, 1-2 Elspeth and another 1-2 Geist in the board. 21/22 mana lands (depending on Hierarch), including 1-2 Horizon Canopy, and 1 Maze.
Snapcaster is bad - you don't play enough threats to have weak ones, and 3-drops are crammed. Delver doesn't end the game the way NH needs to....
Edit: Example/Test list:
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
Quote from WardenThanks for actually making this a discussion. I was referencing way back to Dave Price's New Horizons, not the tempo geist thing of recent times.
That deck may be surprisingly strong at the moment because a few hard counters, stifle, and cantrips is legit. Same can be said for the "tempo" design of stifling fetches (everyone is playing them) + wasteland + late-game cycling horizon canopies to boost the creature force higher. Kobe, swords is still solid in this list because giving them X life doesn't matter as you more than make up the deficit by swinging down for 10+. The alternate builds of maindeck armageddon or EE in the main also support the current meta, which is dependent upon 1 and 2 drops.
Geist is interesting, but I feel he durdles in the true NH shell more than Terravore. However, hexproof is way better than potentially eating abrupt decays and spot removal (ouch). This gets me thinking Snapcaster can come in and clean up stick situations. He's a tiny little annoyance in terms of P/T, but gives you solid lines of play. Brainstorming again? Sure. Stifle another fetch? Of course. Stifle activated abilities? Awesome. Just some things to get the ball rolling.
Delver is interesting. I don't know if he makes the cut because more often than not you'd want to hold back mana. Then again, delver gives you A LOT of pressure and eats their removal. I agree with limbodave81 that the deck has potential. anwei40 also discusses interactions I have been looking at. Having played Maverick for a bit, I do find myself actively wasteland-ing the opponent. That's a line of play NH wants to capitalize off of.
@Noble Hierarch. That's a card I can't figure out. I'm not sure if I want a very aggressive deck or a deck designed to win in the midgame. There are pro's and con's to both. Against combo, however, the lineup of daze/pierce/force/stifle/bstorm (blue thresh shell) is so strong.
Quote from limbodave81You make some excellent points. Snap and delver (plus all the ponders to support it) were awkward in the build I tested out. This looks like it will play more like a stoneforge deck than a tempo deck. Thanks for the insight.
How do you value academy ruins in this type of deck? In mystic decks with equipment and EE it is very strong. I assume since ruins is more oriented towards control rather than disruptive that it doesn't fit well in this sort of build (plus the only singleton artifact).