I don't think the Stifle route is really where you want to be. RUG Delver is better at that game by a lot with cheaper evasive threats. You're going to be a little slower and less mana efficient without bringing anything great to the table outside of Knight.
For this week:
Since the locals are getting wise to my shenanigans now, I am going to put together the new horizons style deck for this coming week. People at the shop are bring out the combo decks again so that should be a nice foil. I started with test list from anwei40 and currently like this:
I put in 4 nobles because I like the slightly lower land count and the acceleration/exalted, etc that it adds. However in the dark 4 is probably too many (anwei40's suggested 3 is probably closer to right). I am running these largely as gamesmanship, since the locals are starting to recognize my old deck and an open on tropical island into noble will cause them to walk into daze and force a bit more readily. There maybe situations where I hold noble on T1 if I have pierce or stifle in hand but that will be matchup and hand dependent. Also feels like a deck where nobles come out a fair bit, especially if there are some lands in the board for Knight.
What do people think are good and bad matchups for this style deck? I don't have a good idea of where the weaknesses are and how I should tilt my sideboard. Input would be great.
-4x Stifle
-2x Ponder (you're not a combo deck, you have better things to run in this slot, that's why fetches rule)
What do people think are good and bad matchups for this style deck? I don't have a good idea of where the weaknesses are and how I should tilt my sideboard. Input would be great.
Classically, grave, hate and lots of spot removal are pretty bad for your creatures, though Geist may significantly improve both of those weaknesses, and StP is pretty rare right now (I wouldn't be worried about decay too much, with a number of solid answers).
UW Miracles is probably really bad - Snapcaster, Counterbalance, Rest in Peace are all really good against you. Anti-RUG-ish decks like DnT and Nic Fit are pretty good against you. Not sure about Jund - you definitely want to be in a tempo role there, and end things quickly, or Lily will catch up to your small creature count.
I don't think the Stifle route is really where you want to be. RUG Delver is better at that game by a lot with cheaper evasive threats. You're going to be a little slower and less mana efficient without bringing anything great to the table outside of Knight.
Disagree. I think there are fine arguments for running it, or not, in RUG, but it's necessary here. RUG sort of needs to keep things "early," and burn can cover the gap when that dissolves. NH can let the game progress a bit more, and has very powerful action in Knight, but needs Stifle to keep its efficient spells alive through the game. If you're opposed to the card, it's probably not the right deck, and other Bant Aggro builds (with many similar cards, but a different fundamental strategy) might be a better fit.
Also, no, there is nothing better than Ponder. Goyf needs a sorcery, soft counters need mana denial, threat-lite decks need threats, etc.
I don't think the Stifle route is really where you want to be. RUG Delver is better at that game by a lot with cheaper evasive threats. You're going to be a little slower and less mana efficient without bringing anything great to the table outside of Knight.
My two cents on the stifle conversation after running some games. Stifle and wasteland were very good. They do mesh well with the game plan of disrupting and sticking one or two good threats. Stifles made protecting my knights easier than it had been in a more traditional bant stoneblade deck. Stifle and waste got me free wins against reanimator where I completely locked him out. I went with deathrite over noble since I wanted a card that was threatening late and interacted with graveyards in game 1. It pulled its weight but noble is probably better, especially in supporting geist. I went 2-2 (win: reanimator, goblins; lose: zoo, dredge), where both loses were 1-2 where my opponents drew quite well (dredge finding a third nature's claims to finally get rid of cage and able to assemble the kill that turn, etc). If you like interactive magic, this is an interesting deck. You are in every game and have to out play your opponent.
I played a 4 round tournament and 4 other test/fun matches with this deck. I would suggest the following changes as a starting place for anyone interested in trying a Bant Aggro Control/ New Horizons style deck.
Main:
- 3 deathrite, -1 underground sea, -1 daze.
+3 noble hierarch, +1 tropical island, +1 ponder.
Because I was on a disrupt and counterattack plan I went with a rather unique sideboard of targeted disruption. I was quite happy with it, though I could see a lot of people not liking this approach. I could see inclusion of wheel and sun and moon as an alternate dredge and reanimator hoser that is good against opposing knights, or if you expect a lot of RIP miracles a helm of obedience to use their RIP against them. The latter is probably too cute, but worth considering since RIP slows you way down and on this plan you can't well support GSZ for pridemage. Krosan grip is the more conservative solution and with 6-7 filtering cards is probably also fine.
The spell suite looks a lot like a UWR or RUG deck but I was really impressed with how well it played with knight and geist, making them very hard for opponents to deal with. It is worth noting that geist is a very nice threat in a room that runs a lot of perish which would otherwise be a problem.
@limbo dave list:
-Shaman can provide a bit of reach for the painful matches where you stall out and your soft counters / mana disruption go bad, but I think you're right that Hierarch is better overall, particularly as a companion to Goyf in Goyf mirrors and Geist as another way to get him to live through attacks.
-I like E Tutor in some places and some decks, but your setup is probably not one of them. The card obviously is best when you're playing some sort of combo and are willing to accept card disadvantage and loss of tempo for the power of the card you're getting, with the caveat that they know about it (so, e.g., SnT can play around the Detention Sphere). Combo decks are running counters or answers, so the risk of getting 2-for-1'd has to really be better than the cards you're taking out, and that's rarely the case in this deck: what could you cut against (e.g.) Reanimator to make room for grave hate and SnT hate and E Tutor? Elspeth, a couple StP, then Goyf? Like RUG, there are lots of cards like Ponder which seem like they could be cut, but often for the worse. The best uses are low-disruption matches like Belcher or Dredge, but again, I'm not sure it's the best way to use the cards or sb slots. Something like Ghostly Prison is probably better as EE (unless you really fear Goblins, in which case, Dueling Grounds).
I would probably cut these, or run 1 if you have some really narrow, important target (like Chill, if you see lots of burn) and can pick up marginal value (like having an extra EE, which you want in the board anyway anyway, against Belcher/Storm)
-I think do like 1 Crop Rotation, which fills a similar role, but Karakas is usually much, much better of a bullet than many artifacts, you can affect the board as an instant (Rotate for Bog in Dredge's Dredge step), and it's reasonable to get Maze when you already have Karakas.
-I would include at least 2-3 high-power slots to have a better long game against grindy-controlly decks which run lots of removal. Probably Jace or Crucible.
For reference, I just pulled up lists I ran at 3 events several months back, and ran the following sideboards:
Crop rotation and crucible are excellent suggestions. I like both of those.
Initially with the board I had built a more standard sideboard then decided to see how the tutor package would play, since I have never played too seriously with them. Against a deck with more disruption and counters of its own (show and tell, stoneblade) the tutor might be much worse, I don't have first hand experience. Other than clique there are very few ways for them to affect my top card before I draw it and can cast it, assuming tutor at endstep of their turn. Counters are a thing, but to a certain extent, that is always true so this bothers me less. It does play into the decision of what to get and what to tutor for though.
Interesting that you cite card disadvantage and tempo as potential problems. They certainly can be, but this deck plays, or at least I play it, much more like a aggro-control/control than true tempo. I use my life as a resource, but I am not looking for a top deck to win the game when I am at 2 life as a RUG delver deck will. If I am going to win the game most of the time the opponent knows it for 2 turns (elspeth, plow, and wasteland to a lesser extent are really the only true surprise, reach cards this deck can top deck that affect everyone's on board knowledge). In this way I thought the tutor bullets were quite nice. I will pay more attention to the tempo and card advantage affects as I play the deck more, and post if/when I have a more knowledgeable response.
Since you asked: For the reanimator match game 2, since I won game 1 (on draw for game 2), used a daze, and saw no griselbrands from him but did see inkwell and archangel (shroud guys) along with Iona, I cut 2 swords, elspeth, two dazes and the geists (questionable on these or goyf, but I cut these since the cmc is higher and both are strong threats), bringing in tutors, crypt, cage, bog, clique and flusterstorm. I, as a general rule, don't cut the 1 mana cantrips.
Interesting that you cite card disadvantage and tempo as potential problems. They certainly can be, but this deck plays, or at least I play it, much more like a aggro-control/control than true tempo.
Loss of tempo/card is always a problem with E Tutor, regardless of how your deck plays, though the large number of other ways to interact with 1 mana means that the tempo aspect is somewhat mitigated.
A lot of combo matches play out with a growing tension between disruption/answers that you both have, like a chess match developing with a bunch of pieces on the center of the board before a ton of trades take place. E Tutor gives you a "+1", that they have to deal with, but (like Force of Will) it costs 2 cards - itself and your next draw - to do something. Unlike Force of Will, it's a turn late, forecasts itself (big deal with a lot of pieces - you find Sphere, SnT hard casts Sneak and you're sad), and costs mana.
If you played (e.g.) Envelop instead, you're still getting a "+1" to the "things they have to beat" column, but you get to keep your next draw step (and you get to watch them read Envelop and then become really sad cause they can't pay 1 or 2 to make it go away, since they were expecting Daze or Pierce). The mana, moreover, could be an EOT Brainstorm which is obviously narrower in some ways and more versatile in others.
The "cards out" problem is not small stuff either - cutting Daze on the draw against a t2 combo deck isn't dreadful, but it's hardly a bad card (I realize that picking on Reanimator boarding is kind of cheating since so many cards are generally circumstantially okay and sometimes dead, like StP or Venser/Sphere/Grave Hate).
When I play "classic" Zenith Bant, I almost always play 1-2 E Tutors in the board because cards like Canonist are so good while my answers are less exciting. NH has a great spectrum of answers to combo already. It can definitely use more Jace, Elspeth, Clique, EE in the board.
(To be clear, I'm not discounting that E Tutor might be a good choice in some/all metas if running this deck - likely, the prevalence of combo is a good reason for this deck to begin with. I'm just justifying my "default" choice to not run it.)
So I haven't played Bant in at least a year, but really want to play something different after playing the same deck for the last two months. With that said, I've come up with the following Bant list and wanted some feedback:
I have two open slots. I originally had two Snapcater Mages, but thought it wouldn't work very well with so few spells I'd flashback (it'd mostly be for StP). With that said I'm wondering if adding a 2nd Elspeth and 3rd Clique makes the most sense since I only have 17 blue cards for Force of Will. Another idea is adding 2 Scavenging Oozes so I have some main deck GY hate or even adding a third equipment maindeck and a singleton Ponder. I'm also thinking the Teegs in the SB are probably a bad idea.
I played a lot of bant stoneblade a few months ago, and brought it out again this past weekend. Here are some quick thoughts.
Maindeck:
I am not a huge fan of geist main unless you are building around him, which normally means you want him to be your finisher, so you are trying to establish a clock with disruption as support and a sword to make him survive more creature combat when that is relevant. If you like him, adding a sword in one of your free spots goes a long way. I would suggest put him in the board, and putting more disruption (spell pierce) in your main deck. He doesn't do anything for you the turn he comes in, and that matters. If you look on the previous page you will find a list I posted for a geist based New Horizons Bant deck that I played two weeks ago. The board was an experiment but the main was a good fit for him.
One snapcaster is often a good inclusion if you aren't sure what you want or will be playing against. You can sandbag them until it is effective for you. Snap plow or Snap brainstorm are both strong, it simply depends on what you need. Running Spell pierce also makes him stronger. Esper will often run 3-4 of these but since we don't have 1 mana discard and want bigger threats, going down to 0-2 fits the deck better.
Counterspell is a great one of, I have never liked more than that. Two in hand is awkward. I do love spell pierce though. If you expect any combo or control, the spell pierce is gold, and you probably will want 2 or more.
Clique is possibly my favorite card in the deck. It and gitaxian probe are the only reasonable ways a bant player can get perfect information. In control mirrors, perfect information is extremely valuable. Part of the reason this deck has trouble against Esper is because they are much more likely to have selective hand disruption which gives them perfect information and lets them disrupt your line of play. Clique lets you turn the tables. It is also excellent against combo, and with karakas (often via knight) you can lock out your opponents draw step.
Board:
As you know, Teeg shuts off your forces, jaces, and elspeth. In matchups where Teeg is good against your opponent you likely want your planeswalkers, and probably some number of forces. If you are looking for disruptive creatures against control or combo, look at ethersworn canonist or meddling mage. Your knowledge of the metagame around you should influence which of those you go for.
Here was the list I played this weekend for reference:
4-0 (Poison, TES, Belcher, Dredge)
Note: I played a daze over snapcaster since I expected a lot of combo. Because I cut snapcaster, I cut ponder and put in the fourth jace. This was probably not correct, but it seemed sound when I was shuffling up.
Thanks for the reply. I'll take out the Geists as you said and definitely move over to Ethersworn Canonist intead of Teeg since it doesn't mess with me as much.
Since I take the Geists out that actually gives me 4 slots so I am thinking of putting in 3 Tarmogoyf and 1 Clique (to increase my Blue count). I think that would give me more creatures (I feel uncomfortable with only 14).
As for counter spell vs. Spell Pierce, I've run Pierce in Esperblade in the past and always got frustrated with it even against Combo and that's why I've been leaning towards Counter Spell. Mid to late-game Pierce is dead while Counter Spell is always live and a hard counter (no conditional). Then again, the Bant list I am thinking of is more Aggro oriented so perhaps keeping two blue back is just counter to that (hence Pierce).
As you know, Teeg shuts off your forces, jaces, and elspeth. In matchups where Teeg is good against your opponent you likely want your planeswalkers, and probably some number of forces. If you are looking for disruptive creatures against control or combo, look at ethersworn canonist or meddling mage. Your knowledge of the metagame around you should influence which of those you go for.
100% agreed and as posted in his decklist SB above, I'd opt for Ethersworn Canonist as the go-to hate bear over Teeg as it keeps PW/FoW alive and actually increases the effectiveness of FoW. They try to remove EC to combo? 1x FoW = all you need and you can generate the CA back with Jace on your turn.
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I have two open slots. I originally had two Snapcater Mages, but thought it wouldn't work very well with so few spells I'd flashback (it'd mostly be for StP). With that said I'm wondering if adding a 2nd Elspeth and 3rd Clique makes the most sense since I only have 17 blue cards for Force of Will. Another idea is adding 2 Scavenging Oozes so I have some main deck GY hate or even adding a third equipment maindeck and a singleton Ponder. I'm also thinking the Teegs in the SB are probably a bad idea.
This was discussed some above, but Snapcaster is pretty bad in this setup, as your 3-drop is already quite clogged. 7 is a good goal, 8 is okay, 10 (counting Snapcaster) is too much.
3rd Clique is very good. I think a 5th planeswalker is too much. More Spell Pierce is good - 18 U cards is a good goal for Force (I would not cut Geists for Goyfs, as you're already tight).
I think Geist is a fine card, and comparatively good in the Blade shell, but you want a maindeck sword that he can actually us to not die - board the Jitte for maindeck Feast/Famine if you're running Geist.
I like 22 real lands in this sort of shell (and I'm not sure you want 4 wastelands).
Board:
As you know, Teeg shuts off your forces, jaces, and elspeth. In matchups where Teeg is good against your opponent you likely want your planeswalkers, and probably some number of forces. If you are looking for disruptive creatures against control or combo, look at ethersworn canonist or meddling mage. Your knowledge of the metagame around you should influence which of those you go for.
In specific, this is not a good deck for Teeg. His primary value (over Canonist, as mentioned) is as a GSZ bullet.
But, in the abstract (or in GSZ builds), matches where Teeg is good are generally *not* where you want your planeswalkers. Storm is the main match for Teeg, and RUG Delver is reasonable (since your Walkers/Forces are probably coming out and it can do some work against Submerge and any Forces they left in).
But, that doesn't matter, since it's not a good card here.
@limbodave could sure use an E Tutor in the board.
How do people feel about Venser, Shaper Savant? I am probably going to try one in place of my fourth jace. Never played with him before so insight is appreciated.
How do people feel about Venser, Shaper Savant? I am probably going to try one in place of my fourth jace. Never played with him before so insight is appreciated.
Fine sb card for SnT or as a way to remove Jace.
Not something I'd want md.
What do people think of his list? This is very much the Bant midrange that the forum was designed to discuss.
The Teeg maindeck in a deck seems very awkward, but I guess it can be such a big gain against some decks that you are willing to have a dead card in your main to make those matchups better. I did see him doing the Karakas, bounce teeg, play X, replay teeg loop a couple of times on camera. It is a narrow but available interaction.
Edit: It is worth adding, that it was super fun to see bant on camera. Thanks and congratulations to Bryan!
What do people think of his list? This is very much the Bant midrange that the forum was designed to discuss.
He placed with a very similar list at another semi-recent Open and I think the old thread had a small discussion of it. It's very similar to the "stock" GSZ Bant list I've played in the past, with Teeg maindeck (which I like a lot, as Storm has become more popular) and trading the Forces for Jitte (which I liked more last time, when combo wasn't quite so prominent). As then, I don't like going halfway on Forces with such a low Blue count.
Has anyone played around with Tempo builds anymore?
Tonight I sleeved this up for a couple casual matches:
3 Trop
3 Tundra
4 Waste
8 Fetch
1 Karakas
4 Hierarch
4 Delver
3 Goyf
4 Geist
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 StP
2 Vapor Snag
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
I've played several different lists trying to fit Geist in. That dude needs a good home.
6 Removal seems important in clearing the way for Geist, but I'm not sure about vapor snag - you really need to hit the tempo game quickly for that to go well. I would probably cut those for the 4th Goyf and a Horizon Canopy or Ponder maindeck, then get some Submerges in the board.
Elspeth might just play much better in those spots.
Stifle on the angel sacrifice is obviously cute but awesome if it happens, and helps Stifle as a late-game card (seems like a wimpy Dreadnaught, but it's usually a big play, if they're blocking).
Has anyone played around with Tempo builds anymore?
Tonight I sleeved this up for a couple casual matches:
3 Trop
3 Tundra
4 Waste
8 Fetch
1 Karakas
4 Hierarch
4 Delver
3 Goyf
4 Geist
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 StP
2 Vapor Snag
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
I've played several different lists trying to fit Geist in. That dude needs a good home.
6 Removal seems important in clearing the way for Geist, but I'm not sure about vapor snag - you really need to hit the tempo game quickly for that to go well. I would probably cut those for the 4th Goyf and a Horizon Canopy or Ponder maindeck, then get some Submerges in the board.
Elspeth might just play much better in those spots.
Stifle on the angel sacrifice is obviously cute but awesome if it happens, and helps Stifle as a late-game card (seems like a wimpy Dreadnaught, but it's usually a big play, if they're blocking).
Sometimes you cannot force a tempo deck when there are better color alternatives for a better build.
If anything, go 4 goyfs, 3 geists since geists are legendary.
I think it is difficult pulling off a decent tempo deck with Bant.
In regards to your list, Noble is only a mana accerlerant and not much of a clock. Exalted doesn't really serve too much since we hope to be attacking with multiple cost efficient creatures and not just one per attack step. It might be able to set up the desired Turn 1 Noble + Daze backup, but that requires both cards in your opener. StP gives your opponent more life/time to stabilize + does not help your Goyf get any bigger since creatures are being exiled. Geist is pretty mana heavy since you have 19 lands and can be easily blocked.
I just feel RUG/BUG can provide so much more pressure than Bant can.
Pre-misstep, in tempo land, New Horizons was a very legit deck for its large advantages in the (Canadian/RUG) tempo mirror and similar advantages in the combo match.
Geist patches up weaknesses to yard hate and gobs of removal and may be very good now, as (once again) lots of combo and a polarized meta has RUG Delver (re-?)rising to the top.
It is at least worth trying before dismissing.
(And specifically, I don't know what you mean re:Hierarch; Goyfs that trump Goyfs, Geists that have a better shot surviving, and turbo-Delvers all seem fine.)
@Kobe, Geist is usually either (a) a super-fast clock in tempo games that I want quickly while pressing advantages, (b) fine in combo games for a fast clock or FoW fodder, or (c) quite capable of dying and fine to replace. 4 isn't terrible, and a redundant one is less-bad than durdling around, looking for a threat.
Mainly, while testing I want to see more of them to get a better sense of how they work out. I have usually not liked Delver because it's too hard to close games through stabilizing. Geist prevents (at least) their removal from stopping you from closing out, and provides reach that other stuff doesn't.
I know this forum is slow, so here is my input from the last few weeks:
This list is very good, and worth giving a try if you like the midrange to control side of bant:
- If you are worried about wasteland, back to basics, bloodmoon effects go -1 savannah, -1 flooded strand, +1 forest, +1 windswept heath
- Don't cut academy ruins. Don't do it.
- If dredge is a non-entity near you, cut the cage for something else.
- If storm and glimpse based combos are not popular near you, a few spots can be opened up in the board.
- With this configuration Miracles and Jund are probably the toughest matchups verses the 'common' legacy decks, and those are winnable. You can certainly hedge against those with a few card changes (Elspeth and Thrun have played well in those matchups).
Going into a big tournament like an open, this is the 75 I would play. This deck has a lot of interactions, and decision trees, but if you know what your opponent is doing, it is very rewarding once you get a handle on it. Hope all you Bant aficionados are having a good week.
Running one daze is just weird when its such a tempo card.
If you are lacking slots, you can cut the maze. I found that cutting that maze wasn't that detrimental all that much. I never really fetched it with knight anyways.
Running one daze is just weird when its such a tempo card.
If you are lacking slots, you can cut the maze. I found that cutting that maze wasn't that detrimental all that much. I never really fetched it with knight anyways.
This is not a tempo deck. I should probably put this in UWx stoneblade rather than here but this forum thinks about Bant interactions where that one is all esper, all the time.
Daze is exceedingly good, but I very rarely want more than one in a game, especially in a controlling oriented build like this one. When they play around it, that is fine since they waste resources, time and brain power. When they don't and I have it, it is often a blowout. Generally speaking, it is very rare that you daze something and the opponent doesn't respect other dazes in the future (unless they can't) or that you find a situation where your opponent does not yet know it is in your deck, and it is profitable for you to double daze on a given turn/play (it happens but is rare). Initially, I had it in as the pseudo-5th force for combo matchups, but I cut one force to the board (for library) and kept the daze main because the card disadvantage of force can be problematic in non-combo game 1's, while daze still gives me good cover during the critical first two turns and reasonable utility afterwards.
With an active knight, if you are not getting a wasteland to immediately kill a problem land, then in most board states you should probably be getting the maze. Since you normally fetch on the end of their turn for your first knight activation, they cannot do anything about it for at least a turn and it gives your knight pseudo-vigilance (end of combat step, post-damage, untap and remove from combat) allowing you to attack and activate its ability during the same turn cycle. If you are not playing knight this way, you will be amazed at how much better it can be when you do. Doing this means during your first knight activation it only grows by +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 but the extra attack step you gain and the ability to grow and attack each turn more than makes up for it. The protective ability of maze also makes me more than happy to have it since I am playing for a longer game.
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-4x Stifle
-2x Ponder (you're not a combo deck, you have better things to run in this slot, that's why fetches rule)
+2x Engineered Explosives
+2x Jace TMS
+1x Spell Pierce
+1x Daze
Depends on your meta and how you build yoru MB - tbh. I can see pdeed.dec being a struggle, and RUG won't be a walk in the park.
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Classically, grave, hate and lots of spot removal are pretty bad for your creatures, though Geist may significantly improve both of those weaknesses, and StP is pretty rare right now (I wouldn't be worried about decay too much, with a number of solid answers).
UW Miracles is probably really bad - Snapcaster, Counterbalance, Rest in Peace are all really good against you. Anti-RUG-ish decks like DnT and Nic Fit are pretty good against you. Not sure about Jund - you definitely want to be in a tempo role there, and end things quickly, or Lily will catch up to your small creature count.
Disagree. I think there are fine arguments for running it, or not, in RUG, but it's necessary here. RUG sort of needs to keep things "early," and burn can cover the gap when that dissolves. NH can let the game progress a bit more, and has very powerful action in Knight, but needs Stifle to keep its efficient spells alive through the game. If you're opposed to the card, it's probably not the right deck, and other Bant Aggro builds (with many similar cards, but a different fundamental strategy) might be a better fit.
Also, no, there is nothing better than Ponder. Goyf needs a sorcery, soft counters need mana denial, threat-lite decks need threats, etc.
Agreed; Stifle is pretty bad in Bant. Wasteland and Daze are better mana disruption tools because we run Knight of the Reliquary.
- - -
Modern Living End
- - -
Member of Team X9 Member of Team Worlds Apart
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (22)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands (21)
4x Flooded Strand
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Flusterstorm
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Detention Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chill
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I played a 4 round tournament and 4 other test/fun matches with this deck. I would suggest the following changes as a starting place for anyone interested in trying a Bant Aggro Control/ New Horizons style deck.
Main:
- 3 deathrite, -1 underground sea, -1 daze.
+3 noble hierarch, +1 tropical island, +1 ponder.
Because I was on a disrupt and counterattack plan I went with a rather unique sideboard of targeted disruption. I was quite happy with it, though I could see a lot of people not liking this approach. I could see inclusion of wheel and sun and moon as an alternate dredge and reanimator hoser that is good against opposing knights, or if you expect a lot of RIP miracles a helm of obedience to use their RIP against them. The latter is probably too cute, but worth considering since RIP slows you way down and on this plan you can't well support GSZ for pridemage. Krosan grip is the more conservative solution and with 6-7 filtering cards is probably also fine.
The spell suite looks a lot like a UWR or RUG deck but I was really impressed with how well it played with knight and geist, making them very hard for opponents to deal with. It is worth noting that geist is a very nice threat in a room that runs a lot of perish which would otherwise be a problem.
-Shaman can provide a bit of reach for the painful matches where you stall out and your soft counters / mana disruption go bad, but I think you're right that Hierarch is better overall, particularly as a companion to Goyf in Goyf mirrors and Geist as another way to get him to live through attacks.
-I like E Tutor in some places and some decks, but your setup is probably not one of them. The card obviously is best when you're playing some sort of combo and are willing to accept card disadvantage and loss of tempo for the power of the card you're getting, with the caveat that they know about it (so, e.g., SnT can play around the Detention Sphere). Combo decks are running counters or answers, so the risk of getting 2-for-1'd has to really be better than the cards you're taking out, and that's rarely the case in this deck: what could you cut against (e.g.) Reanimator to make room for grave hate and SnT hate and E Tutor? Elspeth, a couple StP, then Goyf? Like RUG, there are lots of cards like Ponder which seem like they could be cut, but often for the worse. The best uses are low-disruption matches like Belcher or Dredge, but again, I'm not sure it's the best way to use the cards or sb slots. Something like Ghostly Prison is probably better as EE (unless you really fear Goblins, in which case, Dueling Grounds).
I would probably cut these, or run 1 if you have some really narrow, important target (like Chill, if you see lots of burn) and can pick up marginal value (like having an extra EE, which you want in the board anyway anyway, against Belcher/Storm)
-I think do like 1 Crop Rotation, which fills a similar role, but Karakas is usually much, much better of a bullet than many artifacts, you can affect the board as an instant (Rotate for Bog in Dredge's Dredge step), and it's reasonable to get Maze when you already have Karakas.
-I would include at least 2-3 high-power slots to have a better long game against grindy-controlly decks which run lots of removal. Probably Jace or Crucible.
For reference, I just pulled up lists I ran at 3 events several months back, and ran the following sideboards:
1 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Luminarch Ascension
2 Envelop
2 Detention Sphere
1 Krossan Grip
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
2 Envelop
2 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
2 Krossan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hydroblast
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krossan Grip
1 Envelop
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dueling Grounds
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Submerge
Initially with the board I had built a more standard sideboard then decided to see how the tutor package would play, since I have never played too seriously with them. Against a deck with more disruption and counters of its own (show and tell, stoneblade) the tutor might be much worse, I don't have first hand experience. Other than clique there are very few ways for them to affect my top card before I draw it and can cast it, assuming tutor at endstep of their turn. Counters are a thing, but to a certain extent, that is always true so this bothers me less. It does play into the decision of what to get and what to tutor for though.
Interesting that you cite card disadvantage and tempo as potential problems. They certainly can be, but this deck plays, or at least I play it, much more like a aggro-control/control than true tempo. I use my life as a resource, but I am not looking for a top deck to win the game when I am at 2 life as a RUG delver deck will. If I am going to win the game most of the time the opponent knows it for 2 turns (elspeth, plow, and wasteland to a lesser extent are really the only true surprise, reach cards this deck can top deck that affect everyone's on board knowledge). In this way I thought the tutor bullets were quite nice. I will pay more attention to the tempo and card advantage affects as I play the deck more, and post if/when I have a more knowledgeable response.
Since you asked: For the reanimator match game 2, since I won game 1 (on draw for game 2), used a daze, and saw no griselbrands from him but did see inkwell and archangel (shroud guys) along with Iona, I cut 2 swords, elspeth, two dazes and the geists (questionable on these or goyf, but I cut these since the cmc is higher and both are strong threats), bringing in tutors, crypt, cage, bog, clique and flusterstorm. I, as a general rule, don't cut the 1 mana cantrips.
Thanks for continued thoughtful input.
Loss of tempo/card is always a problem with E Tutor, regardless of how your deck plays, though the large number of other ways to interact with 1 mana means that the tempo aspect is somewhat mitigated.
A lot of combo matches play out with a growing tension between disruption/answers that you both have, like a chess match developing with a bunch of pieces on the center of the board before a ton of trades take place. E Tutor gives you a "+1", that they have to deal with, but (like Force of Will) it costs 2 cards - itself and your next draw - to do something. Unlike Force of Will, it's a turn late, forecasts itself (big deal with a lot of pieces - you find Sphere, SnT hard casts Sneak and you're sad), and costs mana.
If you played (e.g.) Envelop instead, you're still getting a "+1" to the "things they have to beat" column, but you get to keep your next draw step (and you get to watch them read Envelop and then become really sad cause they can't pay 1 or 2 to make it go away, since they were expecting Daze or Pierce). The mana, moreover, could be an EOT Brainstorm which is obviously narrower in some ways and more versatile in others.
The "cards out" problem is not small stuff either - cutting Daze on the draw against a t2 combo deck isn't dreadful, but it's hardly a bad card (I realize that picking on Reanimator boarding is kind of cheating since so many cards are generally circumstantially okay and sometimes dead, like StP or Venser/Sphere/Grave Hate).
When I play "classic" Zenith Bant, I almost always play 1-2 E Tutors in the board because cards like Canonist are so good while my answers are less exciting. NH has a great spectrum of answers to combo already. It can definitely use more Jace, Elspeth, Clique, EE in the board.
(To be clear, I'm not discounting that E Tutor might be a good choice in some/all metas if running this deck - likely, the prevalence of combo is a good reason for this deck to begin with. I'm just justifying my "default" choice to not run it.)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Equipment (2):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers (4):
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Removal (4):
4 Swords to Plowshares
Counters (6):
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
Land (22):
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
I have two open slots. I originally had two Snapcater Mages, but thought it wouldn't work very well with so few spells I'd flashback (it'd mostly be for StP). With that said I'm wondering if adding a 2nd Elspeth and 3rd Clique makes the most sense since I only have 17 blue cards for Force of Will. Another idea is adding 2 Scavenging Oozes so I have some main deck GY hate or even adding a third equipment maindeck and a singleton Ponder. I'm also thinking the Teegs in the SB are probably a bad idea.
Thoughts?
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I played a lot of bant stoneblade a few months ago, and brought it out again this past weekend. Here are some quick thoughts.
Maindeck:
I am not a huge fan of geist main unless you are building around him, which normally means you want him to be your finisher, so you are trying to establish a clock with disruption as support and a sword to make him survive more creature combat when that is relevant. If you like him, adding a sword in one of your free spots goes a long way. I would suggest put him in the board, and putting more disruption (spell pierce) in your main deck. He doesn't do anything for you the turn he comes in, and that matters. If you look on the previous page you will find a list I posted for a geist based New Horizons Bant deck that I played two weeks ago. The board was an experiment but the main was a good fit for him.
One snapcaster is often a good inclusion if you aren't sure what you want or will be playing against. You can sandbag them until it is effective for you. Snap plow or Snap brainstorm are both strong, it simply depends on what you need. Running Spell pierce also makes him stronger. Esper will often run 3-4 of these but since we don't have 1 mana discard and want bigger threats, going down to 0-2 fits the deck better.
Counterspell is a great one of, I have never liked more than that. Two in hand is awkward. I do love spell pierce though. If you expect any combo or control, the spell pierce is gold, and you probably will want 2 or more.
Clique is possibly my favorite card in the deck. It and gitaxian probe are the only reasonable ways a bant player can get perfect information. In control mirrors, perfect information is extremely valuable. Part of the reason this deck has trouble against Esper is because they are much more likely to have selective hand disruption which gives them perfect information and lets them disrupt your line of play. Clique lets you turn the tables. It is also excellent against combo, and with karakas (often via knight) you can lock out your opponents draw step.
Board:
As you know, Teeg shuts off your forces, jaces, and elspeth. In matchups where Teeg is good against your opponent you likely want your planeswalkers, and probably some number of forces. If you are looking for disruptive creatures against control or combo, look at ethersworn canonist or meddling mage. Your knowledge of the metagame around you should influence which of those you go for.
Here was the list I played this weekend for reference:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
Instant (16)
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (23)
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
4-0 (Poison, TES, Belcher, Dredge)
Note: I played a daze over snapcaster since I expected a lot of combo. Because I cut snapcaster, I cut ponder and put in the fourth jace. This was probably not correct, but it seemed sound when I was shuffling up.
Since I take the Geists out that actually gives me 4 slots so I am thinking of putting in 3 Tarmogoyf and 1 Clique (to increase my Blue count). I think that would give me more creatures (I feel uncomfortable with only 14).
As for counter spell vs. Spell Pierce, I've run Pierce in Esperblade in the past and always got frustrated with it even against Combo and that's why I've been leaning towards Counter Spell. Mid to late-game Pierce is dead while Counter Spell is always live and a hard counter (no conditional). Then again, the Bant list I am thinking of is more Aggro oriented so perhaps keeping two blue back is just counter to that (hence Pierce).
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
100% agreed and as posted in his decklist SB above, I'd opt for Ethersworn Canonist as the go-to hate bear over Teeg as it keeps PW/FoW alive and actually increases the effectiveness of FoW. They try to remove EC to combo? 1x FoW = all you need and you can generate the CA back with Jace on your turn.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
This was discussed some above, but Snapcaster is pretty bad in this setup, as your 3-drop is already quite clogged. 7 is a good goal, 8 is okay, 10 (counting Snapcaster) is too much.
3rd Clique is very good. I think a 5th planeswalker is too much. More Spell Pierce is good - 18 U cards is a good goal for Force (I would not cut Geists for Goyfs, as you're already tight).
I think Geist is a fine card, and comparatively good in the Blade shell, but you want a maindeck sword that he can actually us to not die - board the Jitte for maindeck Feast/Famine if you're running Geist.
I like 22 real lands in this sort of shell (and I'm not sure you want 4 wastelands).
In specific, this is not a good deck for Teeg. His primary value (over Canonist, as mentioned) is as a GSZ bullet.
But, in the abstract (or in GSZ builds), matches where Teeg is good are generally *not* where you want your planeswalkers. Storm is the main match for Teeg, and RUG Delver is reasonable (since your Walkers/Forces are probably coming out and it can do some work against Submerge and any Forces they left in).
But, that doesn't matter, since it's not a good card here.
@limbodave could sure use an E Tutor in the board.
One thing at a time.
Fine sb card for SnT or as a way to remove Jace.
Not something I'd want md.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells (18)
4 Brainstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Bojuka Bog
What do people think of his list? This is very much the Bant midrange that the forum was designed to discuss.
The Teeg maindeck in a deck seems very awkward, but I guess it can be such a big gain against some decks that you are willing to have a dead card in your main to make those matchups better. I did see him doing the Karakas, bounce teeg, play X, replay teeg loop a couple of times on camera. It is a narrow but available interaction.
Edit: It is worth adding, that it was super fun to see bant on camera. Thanks and congratulations to Bryan!
He placed with a very similar list at another semi-recent Open and I think the old thread had a small discussion of it. It's very similar to the "stock" GSZ Bant list I've played in the past, with Teeg maindeck (which I like a lot, as Storm has become more popular) and trading the Forces for Jitte (which I liked more last time, when combo wasn't quite so prominent). As then, I don't like going halfway on Forces with such a low Blue count.
I rather go four FOW in the main and then cut it if the matchup does not need it.
But my list is similar to his. I don't think elspeth was that useful that day
Tonight I sleeved this up for a couple casual matches:
3 Trop
3 Tundra
4 Waste
8 Fetch
1 Karakas
4 Hierarch
4 Delver
3 Goyf
4 Geist
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 StP
2 Vapor Snag
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
I've played several different lists trying to fit Geist in. That dude needs a good home.
6 Removal seems important in clearing the way for Geist, but I'm not sure about vapor snag - you really need to hit the tempo game quickly for that to go well. I would probably cut those for the 4th Goyf and a Horizon Canopy or Ponder maindeck, then get some Submerges in the board.
Elspeth might just play much better in those spots.
Stifle on the angel sacrifice is obviously cute but awesome if it happens, and helps Stifle as a late-game card (seems like a wimpy Dreadnaught, but it's usually a big play, if they're blocking).
Sometimes you cannot force a tempo deck when there are better color alternatives for a better build.
If anything, go 4 goyfs, 3 geists since geists are legendary.
Pre-misstep, in tempo land, New Horizons was a very legit deck for its large advantages in the (Canadian/RUG) tempo mirror and similar advantages in the combo match.
Geist patches up weaknesses to yard hate and gobs of removal and may be very good now, as (once again) lots of combo and a polarized meta has RUG Delver (re-?)rising to the top.
It is at least worth trying before dismissing.
(And specifically, I don't know what you mean re:Hierarch; Goyfs that trump Goyfs, Geists that have a better shot surviving, and turbo-Delvers all seem fine.)
@Kobe, Geist is usually either (a) a super-fast clock in tempo games that I want quickly while pressing advantages, (b) fine in combo games for a fast clock or FoW fodder, or (c) quite capable of dying and fine to replace. 4 isn't terrible, and a redundant one is less-bad than durdling around, looking for a threat.
Mainly, while testing I want to see more of them to get a better sense of how they work out. I have usually not liked Delver because it's too hard to close games through stabilizing. Geist prevents (at least) their removal from stopping you from closing out, and provides reach that other stuff doesn't.
This list is very good, and worth giving a try if you like the midrange to control side of bant:
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Daze
3x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Krosan Grip
1x Detention Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Path to Exile
1x Supreme Verdict
- If you are worried about wasteland, back to basics, bloodmoon effects go -1 savannah, -1 flooded strand, +1 forest, +1 windswept heath
- Don't cut academy ruins. Don't do it.
- If dredge is a non-entity near you, cut the cage for something else.
- If storm and glimpse based combos are not popular near you, a few spots can be opened up in the board.
- With this configuration Miracles and Jund are probably the toughest matchups verses the 'common' legacy decks, and those are winnable. You can certainly hedge against those with a few card changes (Elspeth and Thrun have played well in those matchups).
Going into a big tournament like an open, this is the 75 I would play. This deck has a lot of interactions, and decision trees, but if you know what your opponent is doing, it is very rewarding once you get a handle on it. Hope all you Bant aficionados are having a good week.
Running one daze is just weird when its such a tempo card.
If you are lacking slots, you can cut the maze. I found that cutting that maze wasn't that detrimental all that much. I never really fetched it with knight anyways.
This is not a tempo deck. I should probably put this in UWx stoneblade rather than here but this forum thinks about Bant interactions where that one is all esper, all the time.
Daze is exceedingly good, but I very rarely want more than one in a game, especially in a controlling oriented build like this one. When they play around it, that is fine since they waste resources, time and brain power. When they don't and I have it, it is often a blowout. Generally speaking, it is very rare that you daze something and the opponent doesn't respect other dazes in the future (unless they can't) or that you find a situation where your opponent does not yet know it is in your deck, and it is profitable for you to double daze on a given turn/play (it happens but is rare). Initially, I had it in as the pseudo-5th force for combo matchups, but I cut one force to the board (for library) and kept the daze main because the card disadvantage of force can be problematic in non-combo game 1's, while daze still gives me good cover during the critical first two turns and reasonable utility afterwards.
With an active knight, if you are not getting a wasteland to immediately kill a problem land, then in most board states you should probably be getting the maze. Since you normally fetch on the end of their turn for your first knight activation, they cannot do anything about it for at least a turn and it gives your knight pseudo-vigilance (end of combat step, post-damage, untap and remove from combat) allowing you to attack and activate its ability during the same turn cycle. If you are not playing knight this way, you will be amazed at how much better it can be when you do. Doing this means during your first knight activation it only grows by +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 but the extra attack step you gain and the ability to grow and attack each turn more than makes up for it. The protective ability of maze also makes me more than happy to have it since I am playing for a longer game.