Quote from limbodave81This is not a tempo deck. I should probably put this in UWx stoneblade rather than here but this forum thinks about Bant interactions where that one is all esper, all the time.
Daze is exceedingly good, but I very rarely want more than one in a game, especially in a controlling oriented build like this one. When they play around it, that is fine since they waste resources, time and brain power. When they don't and I have it, it is often a blowout. Generally speaking, it is very rare that you daze something and the opponent doesn't respect other dazes in the future (unless they can't) or that you find a situation where your opponent does not yet know it is in your deck, and it is profitable for you to double daze on a given turn/play (it happens but is rare). Initially, I had it in as the pseudo-5th force for combo matchups, but I cut one force to the board (for library) and kept the daze main because the card disadvantage of force can be problematic in non-combo game 1's, while daze still gives me good cover during the critical first two turns and reasonable utility afterwards.
With an active knight, if you are not getting a wasteland to immediately kill a problem land, then in most board states you should probably be getting the maze. Since you normally fetch on the end of their turn for your first knight activation, they cannot do anything about it for at least a turn and it gives your knight pseudo-vigilance (end of combat step, post-damage, untap and remove from combat) allowing you to attack and activate its ability during the same turn cycle. If you are not playing knight this way, you will be amazed at how much better it can be when you do. Doing this means during your first knight activation it only grows by +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 but the extra attack step you gain and the ability to grow and attack each turn more than makes up for it. The protective ability of maze also makes me more than happy to have it since I am playing for a longer game.
Quote from KobeBryan...playing 61 cards just seems odd...
Quote from limbodave81There are only 60. Please count again.
Quote from Samyueru
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Quote from KobeBryanI think daze should either be a 4 of or a 0 of.
Running one daze is just weird when its such a tempo card.
If you are lacking slots, you can cut the maze. I found that cutting that maze wasn't that detrimental all that much. I never really fetched it with knight anyways.
Quote from anwei40I would disagree with both and re-affirm the OP responses on these - running any number of Daze in most Bant lists (including this one) is at least on the table, and running 1 has more effect that 1 card usually does (as it gets feared/respected) without the downsides which Daze has in multiples. It's okay to not love Daze, and it's okay to love it and want more, but there's nothing weird about 1. Also, it probably fits best in SFM decks, among Bant decks, as it fills a nice niche in the weird mana curve.
Maze is really really good. Double-use of Knight, tutorable "removal," etc.
I don't love Bant-Blade as a deck, and prefer the GSZ package. And if I were playing Stoneforge and Swords, I would seriously consider Geist.
Looking at this list, a couple thoughts:
-I would run basic Forest over Plains. If you're in mana trouble, the ability to reliably cast Hierarch/Library is more important.
-MD Venser seems wimpy unless you really fear SnT, and I don't think you should. I'd prefer 3rd Clique or a Geist - particularly with maindeck Sword.
-I had to triple-take that Sideboard to confirm the lack of E Tutor. I would run 1 over the second Canonist. I would rather have E Tutor than Canonist in my opener against Storm, and it (obviously) turns on a bunch more options (like EE if they already Goblins you, or tutoring any piece against GY decks, etc.)
-Even better than E Tutor is Crop Rotation. Besides the obvious Bog, Karakas, and even Maze, Rotating for Ruins->recurring EE/Canonist is really good against Dredge/Storm, where you'd already benefit from instant-speed Grave-wipe/Legend-bounce.
-I would cut maindeck Jitte - 3 swords is a lot.
Quote from KobeBryanI still hate daze. I like it in merfolk when I have more land destruction and playing at a faster pace. I dislike it even more as a 1 of
As for maze, I replaced it with scryb ranger. I remember now. It has more utility than maze. Semi fog with dryad arbor, wasteland proof to your dual lands, untaps, brainstorm more cards by getting rid of extra lands.
Much more useful than maze. Bryan Hawley (my name is bryan too), doesn't run maze either. I suspect for the same reason I am having.
Out of the 3 swords, I would actually not drop the jitte. I would drop feast and famine. He already lacks artifact removal. The jitte would most likely be used to remove an opponent's jitte. I mean 75% of the time, my qasali is removing a jitte
Quote from WardenAnyone test the GW deer/elk hate-bear thing? I'm wondering if he makes the cut in Bant as you could shift around to having more spells/counters. Just protect him and he essentially makes a personal army lol
Quote from anwei40A deck with 3 Wastelands and 4 Knights has more land destruction than a deck with 4 Wastelands.
Scryb Ranger does not have more utility. Maze is semi-fog by itself and gives a free Knight activation every turn - ramping mana, getting Karakas/Ruins to recur other tricks, or Wasting them out of the game. Maze is also more resilient.
Probably above all, Maze is tutorable. When fair matches come down to creature chess, being able to search up Maze is back-breaking. Like if I said, "Drop Jitte for a Path, it's more consistent at removing guys when you need to," you might righly reply "Ya but it takes over the game and you're a SFM deck!" Even if Ranger were better card for card (it isn't) this is a Knight deck.
Actually dropping Jitte as 3rd quip is predicated on having Geist; Jitte is of course better w/out Geist.
Quote from anwei40I would like to test it, but I suspect it to be another sort of Vexing Devil, where the opponent's ability to ignore or play around its circumstantially-dominant effect will relativize the actual power of the card. It's not proactive enough. Many decks obviously just ignore it and try to win, and it doesn't do any real hating. Against UWx decks which are most likely to want to play spells on your turn, exiling him nets you no value. Most interactive decks, which might fear its output if the game gets long enough, can cast most their instants on their turn.
So it's interesting, but I don't think it passes the "would I rather have a Tarmogoyf?" test (especially not at WG, when I like blue cards so much).
Quote from KobeBryanre: new guy.
There is nothing in this deck that is a must answer on our turn. You can wait until your (opponent) untap to stop one of our guys.
The only exception is jace.
Quote from Warden
I don't know what you mean. Bant has several "answer this immediately or die" cards.
I'd make GoST the focus. I think that's a reactive gamplan you're pushing. I hate Venser in general and Clique is outclassed by Geist right now. Geist requires a tweaking though:
3x Geist (2-3 is where you wanna be. 4 is excessive and he's a legend)
2x Jace (3rd in SB)
2x Elspeth (aids everyone. overwhelms with GoST as him and angel-lady now fly)
With such a steep curve, 4x Hierarch is a must
10x Control (forces, snares, pierces, daze, stifle, bounce, more removal)
/18 support spells
At 29 slots, I'd then ask myself if I'm going to abuse Geist in a midrange or tempo shell. I ran SFM.dec at 22 lands. I run Maverick at 23. That's an additional 8-9 dedicated threats. This is where we can go KotR, Clique, SFM + toys, Goyf, Library, etc. Your deck is blue-centric -- but can run off smoother curves/gameplans. You can go Hierarch -> geist -> jace. You can sit back with Swords -> SFM (and protect). You can drop Hierarch -> stifle + Goyf.
A neo-New Horizons could be achieved if you go force/stifle/daze + kotr/goyf/geist. Bant-blade can still happen.
Don't discredit Elspeth. She can straight-up end games. Even board-states suddenly go in your favor. I also hear she plays well with Jace.
*Use this as a point of discussion. I'd like to hear how others feel about this.
Quote from KobeBryanThe point is this deck is ultimately a creature deck. To win, you must get an untap phase then attack.
What does this deck have that the opponent MUST answer on our turn before the opponent goes back to the main phase? The only one I can think of is Jace. And against decks like RUG, they can actually let jace resolve and bolt his ass on the opponent's turn.
There is nothing that is an immediate threat like sneak attack, tendrils belcher where YOU MUST counter it NOW or die.
Quote from limbodave81... and worth giving a try if you like the midrange to control side of bant...
Quote from Warden
^^ Not sure if there's attitude behind this or not. Given the context to which you supported Jace, even he fails to win the game immediately. I've won many games where the opponent played Jace and I still won. He isn't as overpowering as you'd think. In general, any non-combo finisher fails to make the cut. Aggro/Midrange just doesn't auto-win with a specific card. Jace is great (don't get me wrong), but he doesn't win the game on the spot. Hell, if that's the angle you're going for, Elspeth is entirely more relevant as you can windmill-slam her and use the "jump"-pump to end games immediately.
Depending upon how you build your list, I can see Jace, Elspeth, and KotR as "must answer" cards. I honestly find Elspeth to be one of the few "must answer" cards of the format. No, it's not Sneak Attack into Emmy/Grisseldaddy, but you're going to be punched in the face once she comes out.
@point of the deck:
Yes, it's understood Bant is creature-focused. Was looking to stir the pot with the framework from my previous post more than deal with attitude here.
Quote from limbodave81
Voice is a nice zenith target, a good creature to sac if you are worried about your NO being countered, or can act as reasonable counter spell insurance if you would rather play that line. Pretty standard GSZ NO shell here, 10 ways to get progenitus out of your hand, decent count on accelerators, and GSZ bullets. I still think Voice is probably best suited for Junk in Legacy, but this might be a bant option.
Quote from kingseyJust threw together a giest, snap caster mage, sfm bant deck. Running nobles and pridemages to stack exalted. It's raw as hell, but ran fairly smooth. Stifling the angel tokens sac trigger is Gucci as hell
I'm beat but ill post the list tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Quote from anwei40Post a list.
Geist, SCM, and Batterskull are all T3 plays, which is a clunky curve.
Stifle+Geist is a fine synergy, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Stifle isn't a good card by itself. And my guess is, if you're playing Stoneforge Mystic, Stifle isn't a good enough card by itself. So if you're going for a "combo," Dreadnaught is much better.
Quote from kingseyHey guys, running off memory as the deck is in my teammates case. This was just throwing together over beers because my buddy has a super fetish with Geist of Saint Traft. The stone forges were super meh, I was thinking maybe spell snares as a catch all? Mother of runes were fatastic at punching geist thru defense and holding off goyfs. Played against Jund and Team America
4 mother of runes
3 stone forge
4 swords to plow