the back to basics hardly gets played in testing only main decked bc it can shut off lands and zoo g1 and if i tutor it up i fetch the basics so im not crippled
ok so this is my list for ETcontrol it's kinda funky and really hard to play but after considerable testing against a few t1-t2 decks it's incredibly consistant.
i personally don't like running counter-top combo in this kind of deck because i prefer to tutor up either wincon's or permanent based lock cards like prop or blood moon.
blood moon could easily be back to basics but bmoon is better vs wasteland and fetches so i went with that. i know not too many ppl are a fan of this thread or the "archetype" in general but what do you guys think? im trying to tune this for a local gp event.
I really like this deck. I just dont know if I like the black splash or not. The Extipate would help in the mirror and against things like Reanimator. And I am not sure about the 4 Ethersworn Canonists sideboarded even though they seem really good against things like storm and ANT.
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Hi guys! I'm new here, but not new to legacy. I've been playing since the pre-goyf days.
I'll just post the list I've been testing:
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
3 Thopther Foundry
2 Sword of the meek
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Engineered explosives
2 Jace, TMS
21 lands
4 Flooded
4 Misty
3 Tundra
1 Tropical
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Seat of the synod
1 Academy ruins
My list is pretty standard but with less silver bullets and more redundancy (personal playstyle). In this aggro-ish meta, I don't mind having both moat and humility main, with humility for zoo/gobbos/decks with pridemage and moat for merfolk/other aggro. I'm also playing 3/2 thoptersword split because I like drawing into them and not having to dig both combo pieces out with enlightened tutor. Also, having a 3/2 split + 4 daze bumps up my 2cc count to 13 which IMO is an already minimal number. After testing I might decide to boot a humility and an oring for 2 counterspells.
SB:
1 Back to basics
1 Pithing needle
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Engineered explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to exile
I have 6 empty slots, I'm thinking of playing 4 Meddling mage + some blue blasts. My thoughts is that most probably they will be boarding out their swords/creature removal and in with the grips/disenchant effects. Meddling mage can go a long way at protecting out moat/balance/thopters. Another alternative is to switch the singleton trop in the main for a volc and run spouts/REBs in the board. Your thoughts?
relic is better maindecked than crypt, because if it's a dead draw, at least you can "cycle" it.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Im not going to comment on the sideboard first off, everyone has what they think they need.
First- Cut a card to go to 60 I suggest something like the Time Sieve
Second- I understand that Dark Tutelage is tutorable but Dark Confidant is just better..... So I would -3 Dark Tutelage and -1 Counterspell for +4 Dark Confidants.
Last- I dont even think you need the wasteland....I would probaly drop it for the 4th counter balance
Heres a link to the list I think you would be very interested with
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Wasteland as a singleton makes a ton of sense. He runs crucible of worlds in his list as a tutor target and wastelock I hear is pretty great against a lot of the format.
I would cut time sieve from the list to make it 60 cards; it really is win more since if you have 5 thopter tokens to sack you're probably winning anyways if you have the combo set up.
If you're going to play dark tutelage, please play the better version known as phyrexian arena or even better dark confidant. Also, the decks curve is pretty high for dark tutelage anyways flipping a FoW, jace, moat, or some 3 drop in there can be devastating against aggro because it is a free lightning bolt, fireblast, or 5 damage to the head.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Wasteland as a singleton makes a ton of sense. He runs crucible of worlds in his list as a tutor target and wastelock I hear is pretty great against a lot of the format.
I would cut time sieve from the list to make it 60 cards; it really is win more since if you have 5 thopter tokens to sack you're probably winning anyways if you have the combo set up.
If you're going to play dark tutelage, please play the better version known as phyrexian arena or even better dark confidant. Also, the decks curve is pretty high for dark tutelage anyways flipping a FoW, jace, moat, or some 3 drop in there can be devastating against aggro because it is a free lightning bolt, fireblast, or 5 damage to the head.
The reason why I was testing dark tutelage was because it was more splashable and a tutorable 3 drop for counterbalance which i feel the deck need. I do see that it has bad points for sure. Thanks for the help with the deck.
Given how the current meta is shaping up, I don't think Bobs (Dark Confidants) or Dark Tutelage will be strong maindeck cards. It's basically a great way to die faster against what seems to be an aggro heavy meta. It could see action in the sideboard as a strong card against control mirrors, however.
One card I have been extremely pleased with in the main is a 2-of Spell Snare.
It hits so many relevant cards in this format, I don't see it being less than a 2 or 3-of.
What are good alternative win-cons to this deck outside of Jace 2.0 and Elspeth?
I am afraid to buy Jace right now because of its $80 price tag. Maybe in the near future when its price goes down but for now, I'll use a cheaper alternative. Preferably a 4CC card.
Would Goblin Charbelcher be a good alternative win con? My version runs 9 fetchlands in a 21-land manabase (1x Academy Ruins)
Right now I own one Charbelcher, so I getting that should hurt my pocket. Although another win condition would be really good (so far, my non-planeswalker version has Thopter combo and Charbelcher win con)
What about Conundrum Sphinx on that spot? Would that work as well?
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Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
What are good alternative win-cons to this deck outside of Jace 2.0 and Elspeth?
I am afraid to buy Jace right now because of its $80 price tag. Maybe in the near future when its price goes down but for now, I'll use a cheaper alternative. Preferably a 4CC card.
Would Goblin Charbelcher be a good alternative win con? My version runs 9 fetchlands in a 21-land manabase (1x Academy Ruins)
Right now I own one Charbelcher, so I getting that should hurt my pocket. Although another win condition would be really good (so far, my non-planeswalker version has Thopter combo and Charbelcher win con)
What about Conundrum Sphinx on that spot? Would that work as well?
Ajani Vengeant seems reasonable for what appears to be budget constraints.
He meets your 4cc cost, but you have to understand that locking the opponent's plan out with a Moat and Jace-ing them out of the game are how many games are won - simply put, Ajani's tap stuff into Armageddon plan is nowhere near as backbreaking as Jace's fateseal into ultimate.
He might be playable if you expect a lot of Counterbalance mirrors, but I don't think he fares as well against the storm/combo decks or Aether Vial decks.
FYI, Enlightened Tutor / Thopter Foundry tied for 3rd at Canadian Nationals. Controllish Counterbalance won, an interesting Green/White weenie deck came second and Merfolk also tied for 3rd.
I too I have begun playing this version of counter-top (after my 4 color monstrosity simply couldn't cut it). I have been testing Dark tutelage but have not concluded anything yet. My list for reference
First question: Why on earth am I playing dark tutelage?
Answer: For control mirrors. Let's look at the 3 options we have for long term card draw. Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena, and Dark tutelage. Confidant is the best, no questions asked. I was playing 4 color counter top for a while simply because I love confidant that much, but I don't think he's what this deck needs.
Why?
Because he is a creature, a very fragile one at that. One of the great strengths of this deck is its creaturelessness. It makes swords and path essentially dead against us. Much in the same way blue control ran sphinx of jwar isle in standard for a while, we don't have creatures making many of the opponents cards blanks.
Don't get me wrong, his benefits are huge if he sticks. Even just that one extra card, and if you have top out he's much better. But being able to protect him well means you have counter top out, and at that point, you could have a jaynemede tome for all it matters.
In summation, bob is amazing, but I don't want to have a creature in the deck (main board atleast) to turn on my opponents cards. He suffers from Baneslayer's Gonna Die syndrome.
So why not phyrexian arena?
The main reason: Double black. Another great part of this deck is the rock solid mana, you can fetch up one dual and usually be set. To ensure that I can cast a card with double black means I would be fetching for more duals than I want to, or I would have to add more duals than I want to. Also, it is worth noting that the arena life loss is always 1, you can reduce confidant and tutelage to 0 most of the time with top. Arena will always be 1. I guess it depends on your cmc cost distribution.
So then why dark tutelage?
3 reasons. It's tutorable, it costs 3 and you can control it with top. The tutorabilty is my favorite part of it, and the reason I run only 1. The logic goes (to me at least) I don't want to draw this against agro, nor would I like to play it, it's to slow and will hurt me too much. However I would always like it against control, where its cost lets me get around Counterbalance, and we're not usually in a race, so even uncontrolled its life loss is negligible. It costing 3 is a nice boon as it lets you counterbalance against enchantress much better, and it stops KOTR and it's ilk. you can control bob with top, so it just shares that benefit.
With those 450 words on the tutelage, I must also add that I'm just testing it. If it doesn't pan out, I'll be sure to replace it. Unfortunately our testing has been focused on Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins right now as I haven't had the time to proxy up counter top, lands or the mirror yet. I'll be getting on that soon gen-con (alas, I'm not making it to the GP) is in 1.5 weeks.
Other things I have liked so far:
Elspeth - Holy cow is she a beating vs agro decks. If you just slow them down a bit (usually with a swords on goyf) and land an elspeth she gains you minimum 2 or 3 turns. Providing a stead stream of blockers, essentially turning off exalted and requiring 2 burn spells to kill her makes agro work much harder against her.
Why elspeth over the second jace?
For it's impact on the agro matchup. Both jace and elspeth win with moat on the board, so I don't lose anything. Jace is much better vs control I will admit, but I'm not sure if we need that extra push, as academy ruins and mass card manipulation other than jace ensure we win the long game. I'm still worried about fast zoo decks and such.
No Crypt main?
As already said, relic is better as it’s not dead (and you just don’t blow it with good cards in your graveyard) but even then, it just doesn’t do enough against dredge. Just 1 crypt won’t really swing the match in your favor, especially since you’ll usually have to tutor for it. I would think that staying alive to moat is the plan, as that will win the game.
Vindicate in the side?
I don’t actually like vindicate that much, it’s not mana efficient. You spend three, and very rarely do you kill something that costs 3 or more. I’m also very uncomfortable only having force of will to deal with opposing spells, especially as force is a 2 for 1. On the flipside, I like it because it can deal with things I have no other way of killing. When I played green, the vindicates were krosan grips. I’ll take the chance of being countered for much greater versatility.
So what do they come in against?
Zoo, Counterbalance, Enchantress, basically decks with permanents that arent’ goblins, and probably some very fast agro decks, like eva green.
For zoo, if I’m on the play, I take out 3 force of will because I’d rather not lose the extra card, and the fact that I’m a turn up on them means I can go swords, counterspell, vindicate or something similar to that which gives me tons of time. On the draw I take out counterspell as I want to be able to force their turn 1 or 2 play to give my self breathing room but I still want to kill creatures after they hit (like kotr) or any hate they bring in (teeg, pithing needle?) Against counterbalance it’s my substitute krosan grip, it can be forced, but it can also kill their creatures, and it gives me some threes to stop their grips and such (admittedly grip would do that too, so the only benefit over grip is versatility). I brought it in against merfolk simply because I needed something and it does kill their lords and vials and mutavaults, where as counterbalance is not spectacular.
As of right now I’ve just been testing against zoo, merfolk and goblins. I have been beating zoo and gobos nearly every time preboard. Postboard it gets a lot closer and merfolk has been about even. Moat needle is a lock against all of those (needle Quasali Pridemage, Coralhelm Commander, and Seigegang Commander). I’ll be testing against control this week and I’ll get to see if tutelage is worth a slot at all.
Edit: wow, that was long, 10xx words. I wish it were that easy in school too.
Moat doesn't kill dredge preboard if they run Iona as a DR target mainboard. Onto dark tutelage. I feel that 3 mana might be too much in this deck at least in the early game against aggro. And you want to keep counterspell mana up or spell snare mana up in case they drop goyf or KotR or any other annoying fat creature.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Moat doesn't kill dredge preboard if they run Iona as a DR target mainboard. Onto dark tutelage. I feel that 3 mana might be too much in this deck at least in the early game against aggro. And you want to keep counterspell mana up or spell snare mana up in case they drop goyf or KotR or any other annoying fat creature.
Iona on White is fine. Just play Jace and bounce it. Good luck getting that thing in the bin again.
Dark Tutelage, if played at all, should be a tutor/toolbox target in the side for control matchups.
Yup let's assume we get jace TMS every game so we are invincible when most lists run it as a 1 of or 2 of that cannot be tutored for except via brainstorm...
Personally I would never play tutelage because I don't splash for black rather I have a very light SB green splash for k grip with 1 tropical island in the main and a red splash for firespouts in the side as well as 4 colors enabling EE from 0-4 charge counters if you ever need to set it at 4 in the mirror or other MUs where they have important 4 drop permanents.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I was playing the black spalsh for tutelage and engineered plague, but I have been testing the red lately and Im lovin it. Blood Moon terrorizes a lot of decks. I am also playing an Ajani Vengeant out of the board for control mu. I wish I could take this deck to gp columbus, but I have not tested it nearly enough
I have been playing this deck for some time and decided to switch from a UWGR build to a UWR build because i fell it is better against my meta which is zoo goblins merfolk and a collection of different combos. But i was looking for another win condition that isn't shackles or jace. This is because i wanted a non artifact win condition and jace is too slow in an aggro meta unless you have a strong lock. Any help would be great.
Im going to go another way with this deck.
I want to combine my two favorite combos into one deck. Much the same way parfait and Mighty Quinn decks have. First Lets have a look at the deck.
Im not 100% on the sideboard and it is set up for my meta.
this is the primary win con.
2x sword of the meek
2x thopter foundry
I love the combo. Lots of life, lots of flying critters.
I also run a heavy Isochron Scepter control package. I run 4 because multiples are a good thing in this deck.
4x orim's chant-scepter/chant is legendary. VS some decks is a first game auto win. Very tough to deal with and buys you time to get you win con out.
4x lightning helix-Best burn spell of all time. Can act as a machine gun vs goblins and other agro decks. Hits about half of zoo. Can act as a second wincon.
4x counterspell. This can get down right mean. Counterspell on a stick can act the same as orim's chant in some cases.
4x swords to Plowshares- best critter removal avalible.
I also use an enlightened tutor tool box as well. It works as scepters 5-7, because you want scepter turn 2. Fetches your thopter combo pieces and all the situational pieces.
1x humility- shuts down most aggro decks cold. stops iona, progenitus, emrakul.
1x powder keg- mass removal wreaks havak on Zoo and merfolk.Might use EE instead.
2x oblivion ring-best tutorable removal period
1x seat of the synod-need blue land?
1x ancent den-need a white land?
deck control
4x brainstorm- a no brainer. not an optimal scepter target.
2x sensei's divining top- can act like brainstorm on a stick. But in this deck you could put brainstorm on a stick. Kinda redundant.
2x Wrath of God-sometimes you just need to destroy everything.
you may notice I run 21 lands top mana cost here is 4 with humility and brainstorm and divining top thin you dech reasonably well.
you may also notice a lack of Force of will. This deck already gives up card advantage FOW only furthers that. It was a personal choice
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Standard
UWU/W Heroic UW
BMono Black Aggro B
"Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake."-Napoleon Bonaparte;)
I really like Assault's list as well. This is my take on it based upon his concepts. I have not done heavy testing but it is doing well so far against control and combo.
1st) you seem to have quite a bit of nonbasics with back to basics. Cutting 2+ lands from yourself wouldn't put you in the best position imo.
2nd) you seem to have more useage for green than red. So what would make you run tarn and mountain over misty and forest?
everything else seems pretty standard
Haikus Are Easy
But Sometimes They Don't Make Sense
Refrigerator
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 grind stone
2 painters servant
2 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
1 blood moon
1 pithing needle
2 propaganda
3 pyroblast
1 engineered explosives
3 brain storm
3 fact or fiction
3 counterspell
2 muddle the mixture
1 oblivion ring
i personally don't like running counter-top combo in this kind of deck because i prefer to tutor up either wincon's or permanent based lock cards like prop or blood moon.
blood moon could easily be back to basics but bmoon is better vs wasteland and fetches so i went with that. i know not too many ppl are a fan of this thread or the "archetype" in general but what do you guys think? im trying to tune this for a local gp event.
Counter-top Thopter by Josh Guibault
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifact Lands
1 Seat of the Synod
Basic Lands
6 Island
2 Plains
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Humility
1 Serenity
1 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
Type 2: UBControlBW
Extended: UWBGControlGBWU
Legacy:UWRGContolUWRG
Vintage: UWG Poorman Aggro UWG
I'll just post the list I've been testing:
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
3 Thopther Foundry
2 Sword of the meek
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Engineered explosives
2 Jace, TMS
21 lands
4 Flooded
4 Misty
3 Tundra
1 Tropical
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Seat of the synod
1 Academy ruins
My list is pretty standard but with less silver bullets and more redundancy (personal playstyle). In this aggro-ish meta, I don't mind having both moat and humility main, with humility for zoo/gobbos/decks with pridemage and moat for merfolk/other aggro. I'm also playing 3/2 thoptersword split because I like drawing into them and not having to dig both combo pieces out with enlightened tutor. Also, having a 3/2 split + 4 daze bumps up my 2cc count to 13 which IMO is an already minimal number. After testing I might decide to boot a humility and an oring for 2 counterspells.
SB:
1 Back to basics
1 Pithing needle
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Engineered explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to exile
I have 6 empty slots, I'm thinking of playing 4 Meddling mage + some blue blasts. My thoughts is that most probably they will be boarding out their swords/creature removal and in with the grips/disenchant effects. Meddling mage can go a long way at protecting out moat/balance/thopters. Another alternative is to switch the singleton trop in the main for a volc and run spouts/REBs in the board. Your thoughts?
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Sieve
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments: 8
3 Counterbalance
3 Dark Tutelage
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
Instants: 19
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 21
1 Wasteland
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Swamp
3 Plains
5 Island
1 Smokestack
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Master of Etherium
1 Luminarch Ascension
relic is better maindecked than crypt, because if it's a dead draw, at least you can "cycle" it.
Im not going to comment on the sideboard first off, everyone has what they think they need.
First- Cut a card to go to 60 I suggest something like the Time Sieve
Second- I understand that Dark Tutelage is tutorable but Dark Confidant is just better..... So I would -3 Dark Tutelage and -1 Counterspell for +4 Dark Confidants.
Last- I dont even think you need the wasteland....I would probaly drop it for the 4th counter balance
Heres a link to the list I think you would be very interested with
Type 2: UBControlBW
Extended: UWBGControlGBWU
Legacy:UWRGContolUWRG
Vintage: UWG Poorman Aggro UWG
I would cut time sieve from the list to make it 60 cards; it really is win more since if you have 5 thopter tokens to sack you're probably winning anyways if you have the combo set up.
If you're going to play dark tutelage, please play the better version known as phyrexian arena or even better dark confidant. Also, the decks curve is pretty high for dark tutelage anyways flipping a FoW, jace, moat, or some 3 drop in there can be devastating against aggro because it is a free lightning bolt, fireblast, or 5 damage to the head.
Currently Playing:
Retired
The reason why I was testing dark tutelage was because it was more splashable and a tutorable 3 drop for counterbalance which i feel the deck need. I do see that it has bad points for sure. Thanks for the help with the deck.
One card I have been extremely pleased with in the main is a 2-of Spell Snare.
It hits so many relevant cards in this format, I don't see it being less than a 2 or 3-of.
Sales Thread
I am afraid to buy Jace right now because of its $80 price tag. Maybe in the near future when its price goes down but for now, I'll use a cheaper alternative. Preferably a 4CC card.
Would Goblin Charbelcher be a good alternative win con? My version runs 9 fetchlands in a 21-land manabase (1x Academy Ruins)
Right now I own one Charbelcher, so I getting that should hurt my pocket. Although another win condition would be really good (so far, my non-planeswalker version has Thopter combo and Charbelcher win con)
What about Conundrum Sphinx on that spot? Would that work as well?
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Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Ajani Vengeant seems reasonable for what appears to be budget constraints.
He meets your 4cc cost, but you have to understand that locking the opponent's plan out with a Moat and Jace-ing them out of the game are how many games are won - simply put, Ajani's tap stuff into Armageddon plan is nowhere near as backbreaking as Jace's fateseal into ultimate.
He might be playable if you expect a lot of Counterbalance mirrors, but I don't think he fares as well against the storm/combo decks or Aether Vial decks.
Sales Thread
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/canat10/day2#1
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
Planeswalkers (2) [25]
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Moat
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Counterbalance
Artifacts (10) [42]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants (18) [60]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Vindicate
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Humility
2 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Back to Basics
1 Serenity
1 Extirpate
Answer: For control mirrors. Let's look at the 3 options we have for long term card draw. Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena, and Dark tutelage. Confidant is the best, no questions asked. I was playing 4 color counter top for a while simply because I love confidant that much, but I don't think he's what this deck needs.
Why?
Because he is a creature, a very fragile one at that. One of the great strengths of this deck is its creaturelessness. It makes swords and path essentially dead against us. Much in the same way blue control ran sphinx of jwar isle in standard for a while, we don't have creatures making many of the opponents cards blanks.
Don't get me wrong, his benefits are huge if he sticks. Even just that one extra card, and if you have top out he's much better. But being able to protect him well means you have counter top out, and at that point, you could have a jaynemede tome for all it matters.
In summation, bob is amazing, but I don't want to have a creature in the deck (main board atleast) to turn on my opponents cards. He suffers from Baneslayer's Gonna Die syndrome.
So why not phyrexian arena?
The main reason: Double black. Another great part of this deck is the rock solid mana, you can fetch up one dual and usually be set. To ensure that I can cast a card with double black means I would be fetching for more duals than I want to, or I would have to add more duals than I want to. Also, it is worth noting that the arena life loss is always 1, you can reduce confidant and tutelage to 0 most of the time with top. Arena will always be 1. I guess it depends on your cmc cost distribution.
So then why dark tutelage?
3 reasons. It's tutorable, it costs 3 and you can control it with top. The tutorabilty is my favorite part of it, and the reason I run only 1. The logic goes (to me at least) I don't want to draw this against agro, nor would I like to play it, it's to slow and will hurt me too much. However I would always like it against control, where its cost lets me get around Counterbalance, and we're not usually in a race, so even uncontrolled its life loss is negligible. It costing 3 is a nice boon as it lets you counterbalance against enchantress much better, and it stops KOTR and it's ilk. you can control bob with top, so it just shares that benefit.
With those 450 words on the tutelage, I must also add that I'm just testing it. If it doesn't pan out, I'll be sure to replace it. Unfortunately our testing has been focused on Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins right now as I haven't had the time to proxy up counter top, lands or the mirror yet. I'll be getting on that soon gen-con (alas, I'm not making it to the GP) is in 1.5 weeks.
Other things I have liked so far:
Elspeth - Holy cow is she a beating vs agro decks. If you just slow them down a bit (usually with a swords on goyf) and land an elspeth she gains you minimum 2 or 3 turns. Providing a stead stream of blockers, essentially turning off exalted and requiring 2 burn spells to kill her makes agro work much harder against her.
Why elspeth over the second jace?
For it's impact on the agro matchup. Both jace and elspeth win with moat on the board, so I don't lose anything. Jace is much better vs control I will admit, but I'm not sure if we need that extra push, as academy ruins and mass card manipulation other than jace ensure we win the long game. I'm still worried about fast zoo decks and such.
No Crypt main?
As already said, relic is better as it’s not dead (and you just don’t blow it with good cards in your graveyard) but even then, it just doesn’t do enough against dredge. Just 1 crypt won’t really swing the match in your favor, especially since you’ll usually have to tutor for it. I would think that staying alive to moat is the plan, as that will win the game.
Vindicate in the side?
I don’t actually like vindicate that much, it’s not mana efficient. You spend three, and very rarely do you kill something that costs 3 or more. I’m also very uncomfortable only having force of will to deal with opposing spells, especially as force is a 2 for 1. On the flipside, I like it because it can deal with things I have no other way of killing. When I played green, the vindicates were krosan grips. I’ll take the chance of being countered for much greater versatility.
So what do they come in against?
Zoo, Counterbalance, Enchantress, basically decks with permanents that arent’ goblins, and probably some very fast agro decks, like eva green.
For zoo, if I’m on the play, I take out 3 force of will because I’d rather not lose the extra card, and the fact that I’m a turn up on them means I can go swords, counterspell, vindicate or something similar to that which gives me tons of time. On the draw I take out counterspell as I want to be able to force their turn 1 or 2 play to give my self breathing room but I still want to kill creatures after they hit (like kotr) or any hate they bring in (teeg, pithing needle?) Against counterbalance it’s my substitute krosan grip, it can be forced, but it can also kill their creatures, and it gives me some threes to stop their grips and such (admittedly grip would do that too, so the only benefit over grip is versatility). I brought it in against merfolk simply because I needed something and it does kill their lords and vials and mutavaults, where as counterbalance is not spectacular.
As of right now I’ve just been testing against zoo, merfolk and goblins. I have been beating zoo and gobos nearly every time preboard. Postboard it gets a lot closer and merfolk has been about even. Moat needle is a lock against all of those (needle Quasali Pridemage, Coralhelm Commander, and Seigegang Commander). I’ll be testing against control this week and I’ll get to see if tutelage is worth a slot at all.
Edit: wow, that was long, 10xx words. I wish it were that easy in school too.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Iona on White is fine. Just play Jace and bounce it. Good luck getting that thing in the bin again.
Dark Tutelage, if played at all, should be a tutor/toolbox target in the side for control matchups.
Sales Thread
Personally I would never play tutelage because I don't splash for black rather I have a very light SB green splash for k grip with 1 tropical island in the main and a red splash for firespouts in the side as well as 4 colors enabling EE from 0-4 charge counters if you ever need to set it at 4 in the mirror or other MUs where they have important 4 drop permanents.
Currently Playing:
Retired
1 back to basics
4 firespouts
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 COP: RED
1 Aura of Silence
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Runed Halo
As you can see I am 2 Cards short. I am looking for something good again Merfolk and the new Mosswart bridge deck
Type 2: UBControlBW
Extended: UWBGControlGBWU
Legacy:UWRGContolUWRG
Vintage: UWG Poorman Aggro UWG
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I want to combine my two favorite combos into one deck. Much the same way parfait and Mighty Quinn decks have. First Lets have a look at the deck.
4x orim's chant
4x swords to plowshares
4x lightning helix
4x counterspell
4x brainstorm
3x enlightened tutor
2x Wrath of God
2x sword of the meek
2x thopter foundry
2x oblivion ring
1x humility
1x powder keg
2x sensei's divining top
4x flooded strand
2x Arid Mesa
1x tundra
1x plateau
7x island
3x plains
1x academy ruins
1x seat of the synod
1x ancent den
2x relic of progenitus
1x tormods crypt
2x grindstone
2x painters servant
1x pithing needle
4x pyroblast
1x leyline of sanctity
3x hide//seek
Im not 100% on the sideboard and it is set up for my meta.
this is the primary win con.
2x sword of the meek
2x thopter foundry
I love the combo. Lots of life, lots of flying critters.
I also run a heavy Isochron Scepter control package. I run 4 because multiples are a good thing in this deck.
4x orim's chant-scepter/chant is legendary. VS some decks is a first game auto win. Very tough to deal with and buys you time to get you win con out.
4x lightning helix-Best burn spell of all time. Can act as a machine gun vs goblins and other agro decks. Hits about half of zoo. Can act as a second wincon.
4x counterspell. This can get down right mean. Counterspell on a stick can act the same as orim's chant in some cases.
4x swords to Plowshares- best critter removal avalible.
I also use an enlightened tutor tool box as well. It works as scepters 5-7, because you want scepter turn 2. Fetches your thopter combo pieces and all the situational pieces.
1x humility- shuts down most aggro decks cold. stops iona, progenitus, emrakul.
1x powder keg- mass removal wreaks havak on Zoo and merfolk.Might use EE instead.
2x oblivion ring-best tutorable removal period
1x seat of the synod-need blue land?
1x ancent den-need a white land?
deck control
4x brainstorm- a no brainer. not an optimal scepter target.
2x sensei's divining top- can act like brainstorm on a stick. But in this deck you could put brainstorm on a stick. Kinda redundant.
2x Wrath of God-sometimes you just need to destroy everything.
you may notice I run 21 lands top mana cost here is 4 with humility and brainstorm and divining top thin you dech reasonably well.
you may also notice a lack of Force of will. This deck already gives up card advantage FOW only furthers that. It was a personal choice
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
4 Tundra
4 Plains
3 Islands
4 Flooded Strands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Story Circle
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
Artifacts
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Isochron Scepter
Spells
2 Wrath of God
3 Counterspell
3 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard can be established later but some ideas are:
Argivian Find as recursion
Pithing Needle
Seal of Cleansing
Grindstone+Painter combo for changing sb
Wheel of Sun and Moon
What are your thoughts on this setup?