Humility over moat is not a budget choice.
Dark Confidant is good despite the "no creatures blanks removal" argument.
Jace 2.0 would take elspeth's slot but not tezz's. Tezz is really good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
So far I have been very impressed with this deck and it has alot of great matchups. I'm thinking about adding 2x Mindbreak Trap to the SB for combo but so far i'm in love.
I`ve been playing UWx ThopterTop on MTGO the last 8 months or so, and figured it`s about time I join in on this thread. It has been tweaked with A LOT, and I`m finally starting to become satisfied with the build. For the most part, I have used it in queues, but due to winter holidays, I`ve gotten some dailies under my belt too. It has proven itself highly competitive in both tournament-types.
1x Wasteland
This was in from the start, and has stayed all the time. This deck doesn`t excactly `love` colourless mana, but the utility Wasteland provides is well worth the increased chanse of colourscrewing yourself. I do not necessarily encourage including it in builds without Crucible, but with it, it`s a legitimate gameplan to tutor up Crucible to destroy your opponents manabase.
1x Seat of the Synod
I`m simply not sure anymore wheter this card has enough upsides to cover all it`s weaknesses. It dodges Scald and Choke and is an artifact for Foundry. On the other hand, it`s a non-basic, with all the negative aspects connected to that, and it doesn`t play well with Quasali Pridemage.
Yes, it can be tutored up with ET, but I think I`ve done that no more than 3 times in 300-ish matches. Opinions?
2x Ponder and 1x Predict
These are fairly recent inclusions after quite a bit of testing with Opt, Preordain and the two cards above. Both Opt and Preordain turned out to pretty much suck, while Ponder and Predict both have great sinergy with the rest of the deck. These slots are usually held by Counterspell, or similar, but I find that clunky against both aggro and most combo decks.
2x Engineered Explosives
There`s really no good reason (imo) to run this as just a singleton. These are excellent against so many decks, and so important at times that I want to have a back-up against discard, or just another go against zoo/Counterbalance.
4x Spell Pierce
Not long since I included these, and so far, so good. They used to be 4 Meddling Mages, but there`s a fair amount of problems with that card against control. Being able to realisticly stop turn 2 Counterbalance or turn 4 Jace is nice too.
Suggestions or questions? Please help me kick this thread alive again, ThopterTop is a Tier1 deck, and deserves more attention
@XIXSPIDERXI
I assume this is budget? The deck seems to be screaming for FoWs and Fetches (AND removal). I think you`re in the wrong sub-forum, unless you intend to make drastic changes.
@Xwt
I`ve used Humilty for 6 months (mostly in the SB, a little main), and eventually figured out that 4 mana is too much to play for a card that actually doesn`t deal with my opponents threats, it just makes them smaller. I`m curious to hear how you found Humilty to be better than Moat, a card I never could imagine cutting from the deck. So many deck just flat-out lose game 1, and game 2/3 it`s just a matter of protecting it.
I have also tried Elspeth, as a singleton, and hated her guts. She just doesn`t work with anything else in the deck, and takes up a precious high-end spot.
@yutang and Aggro-Vated Assault
Have any of you tested the Scepter? I have no qualms admitting I haven`t, it could be interesting as a singleton. I`m very sceptical to including more than that though (and in general focusing the deck on such a slow card, when you have CounterTop as a far simpler CA/Control-machine)
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
I`ve been playing UWx ThopterTop on MTGO the last 8 months or so, and figured it`s about time I join in on this thread. It has been tweaked with A LOT, and I`m finally starting to become satisfied with the build. For the most part, I have used it in queues, but due to winter holidays, I`ve gotten some dailies under my belt too. It has proven itself highly competitive in both tournament-types.
1x Wasteland
This was in from the start, and has stayed all the time. This deck doesn`t excactly `love` colourless mana, but the utility Wasteland provides is well worth the increased chanse of colourscrewing yourself. I do not necessarily encourage including it in builds without Crucible, but with it, it`s a legitimate gameplan to tutor up Crucible to destroy your opponents manabase.
1x Seat of the Synod
I`m simply not sure anymore wheter this card has enough upsides to cover all it`s weaknesses. It dodges Scald and Choke and is an artifact for Foundry. On the other hand, it`s a non-basic, with all the negative aspects connected to that, and it doesn`t play well with Quasali Pridemage.
Yes, it can be tutored up with ET, but I think I`ve done that no more than 3 times in 300-ish matches. Opinions?
2x Ponder and 1x Predict
These are fairly recent inclusions after quite a bit of testing with Opt, Preordain and the two cards above. Both Opt and Preordain turned out to pretty much suck, while Ponder and Predict both have great sinergy with the rest of the deck. These slots are usually held by Counterspell, or similar, but I find that clunky against both aggro and most combo decks.
2x Engineered Explosives
There`s really no good reason (imo) to run this as just a singleton. These are excellent against so many decks, and so important at times that I want to have a back-up against discard, or just another go against zoo/Counterbalance.
4x Spell Pierce
Not long since I included these, and so far, so good. They used to be 4 Meddling Mages, but there`s a fair amount of problems with that card against control. Being able to realisticly stop turn 2 Counterbalance or turn 4 Jace is nice too.
Suggestions or questions? Please help me kick this thread alive again, ThopterTop is a Tier1 deck, and deserves more attention
@XIXSPIDERXI
I assume this is budget? The deck seems to be screaming for FoWs and Fetches (AND removal). I think you`re in the wrong sub-forum, unless you intend to make drastic changes.
@Xwt
I`ve used Humilty for 6 months (mostly in the SB, a little main), and eventually figured out that 4 mana is too much to play for a card that actually doesn`t deal with my opponents threats, it just makes them smaller. I`m curious to hear how you found Humilty to be better than Moat, a card I never could imagine cutting from the deck. So many deck just flat-out lose game 1, and game 2/3 it`s just a matter of protecting it.
I have also tried Elspeth, as a singleton, and hated her guts. She just doesn`t work with anything else in the deck, and takes up a precious high-end spot.
@yutang and Aggro-Vated Assault
Have any of you tested the Scepter? I have no qualms admitting I haven`t, it could be interesting as a singleton. I`m very sceptical to including more than that though (and in general focusing the deck on such a slow card, when you have CounterTop as a far simpler CA/Control-machine)
Lots of questions because this looks tweaked enough to ask.
2x Ponder + 1x Predict does look viable. I am sure the testing is behind this decision, but how did this compare to 3x Confidant? Confidant would mean you need more black in the lands department and potentially cutting down to 3x Top to avoid too much manipulation, however, what kept you from this?
Additionally, the 4 Tops + 2 Predict route has always been an option for decks using said cards. Why does Ponder get the 2x over Predict?
Are there times you wanted more Predict?
For those playing in real life, Moat isn't a realistic option because it's past $200. No piece of cardboard is worth that imo -- but I'm a huge advocate of Humility. With your current list, would Humility not win games Moat is winning? You still make the army of tokens + gain life + die to anti-enchantment spells.
Lastly, your thoughts on MD removal. 4 Swords + 2 EE is the only thing you've got to hold the fort. Explosives also has the potential to ruin your end of the table. Are you ever lacking in defense/feeling you need to further tweak this aspect?
Sorry for the interrogation, this list had me thinking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Draw spells
I have yet to test Dark Confidant in the deck. There are several reasons for that, which I naturally will outline. Before I start though, I`d like to make it clear that I intend to test him sometime, although sometime might not be tomorrow
-He`s a creature. This has been mentioned in previous discussions on him, and I firmly belive that making all maindeck removal in the opponents deck live is very bad. We`re playing Legacy, not Vintage. Close to all decks run a fair amount of removal, and the ones who doesn`t are too fast for Bob. When I start testing him, chanses are he will begin in the SB
-He`s pretty much useless as a creature. A 2/1 does very little when battling Nacatls and Kird Apes. A 2/1 isn`t doing meaningfull damage to ANT (though that`s a great MU, so it doesn`t matter that much), and Goyf makes him look like a joke against Control. I can imagine him doing "ok" against Jace, and doing a decent job at trading with fishies and Piledrivers.
-He`s painfull. Playing 4 FoWs can lead to some ugly situations. I realise this is a rather minor problem, due to probabileties, and card-manipulation.
-He`s B. That pretty much means just adding another Underground Sea, but I dislike the added amount of non-basics. Perhaps I will try cutting Seat of the Synod at the same time I try the Bob-experiment.
In conclusion; I believe he doesn`t fit the deck, but I haven`t actually tried him yet. The only place I could see him at the moment, is in the sideboard, replacing Jace, 1-2 Pierce and 0-1 Grave-hate.
As for 2x Ponder and 1x Predict, I actually tried 2x Predict instead of Counterspell when I first started tweaking the deck*. Then it became Spell Snare, or maybe it was the opposite way, can`t remember. Then slots for testing U-cantrips, then finally 2x Ponder and 1x Predict.
The point is, I have tested 2x Predict before, and there`s really nothing wrong with that, except for speed. I`m actually considering going 3x Ponder, but for the moment, I will carry on with my singleton Predict. Drawing 2 cards at instant speed is awesome, but it`s slow and it`s rare that I know what I`m drawing with the second draw, or naturally in my draw-phase (which I dislike). Esper Charm could actually be a not-too-crazy idea, though that seems even slower.
Moat/Humility
I don`t quite see your point on Make tokens + Gain life. Close to every time I get the combo going, I don`t care if Moat is in play, as I`m making an army that you need a crazy Goblin-board or Islandwalking fishies to overcome.
The way I see it, Humility only has the advantage over Moat in it`s abilety to deal with utility-critters**. However, rarely care how full my opponents `yard is to fuel Grim Lavamancer, how many goblins Siege-Gang Commander is about to send flying at my face, or how many Wastelands Knight of the Reliquary will fetch unless I allready have Moat in play. If I tap out turn 4 after tutoring up Humility, I`m not actually stopping those 2 Piledrivers, Warchief and that Goblin Matron. I`m just making them 1/1s and have to kill them anyways 2 turns later. It`s turn 4, chanses are I`ve allready taken a serious beating. I want the card I spend to cards on and 5 mana to actually stop the beatings. I could see a case for including it if you have 1-3 Factories, but that sounds like a lot of colourless mana.
Maindeck removal
I have definetly never considered adding maindeck Paths or something like Smother. Moat and Jace are also removal, the former definetly more so though. I am usually EE-ing for 0 or 1, it`s rare that I blow up any of my own stuff. Only exception where thing get kinda awkward is Survival, but that`s luckily gone soon
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
i haven't seen 2 many tournament reports on this thread and i was wondering how this deck fairs against a meta of goblins, merfolk and combo based decks?
also
what are the win percentages against common decks that will be in an average meta also what decks are unwinnable matchups?
curious, as I haven't followed this all the way through, but why is thopter combo played seperate from Dark Depths combo in legacy when they were the scourge of extended not all too long ago?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
...Because dark depths is terrible? Swords/path your marit lage, GG's. Stifle hexmage. GG's. Wasteland dark depths. GG's. Spell snare hexmage. GG's. Really, dark depths isn't good in legacy and it never will be. If it was good, it would have already put up results which it hasn't done on a consistent basis and I've never seen it top 8 a large tournament of big importance.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
curious, as I haven't followed this all the way through, but why is thopter combo played seperate from Dark Depths combo in legacy when they were the scourge of extended not all too long ago?
you can play it but do realize as barl said theres a lot of problems the marit lage combo faces unlike extended.
on the other hand the thopter deck i've ran with marginal success that had dual combo was polymorph emrakul.
simple case of running a man land as its primary/secondary creature source for polymorph.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Well first off, path to exile was always present in regular dark depths thopter combo, and considering this is a control deck anyway, it's not that hard to protect the combo... and at the very worst, a swords gives you 20 life since path is played very little in legacy. I'm not in any way saying it should be the go-to thing in here, but considerinng it can be splashed for, it's really not that tough.
Wasteland is a non-factor if you have a hexmage in play anyway since you can just sac in response to wasteland.
I'm not saying it's something the deck should "depend on" but if you're playing permission, standstills, and other standard control cards, it's a quick and easy win condition that gives you the potential to win in a rapid fashion if you need to.
Finally, it's a relatively small package... requiring 4 hexmages, 1 dark depths, and a few tolaria wests, which are good cards here anyway since they tutor for explosives, and a lot of other generally good cards.
As far as the "I haven't seen it top 8" a ton... this is a terrible argument as Legacy is notoriously slow to adapt to new archetypes. Vengevine was around for about 6 months before people started understanding how broken it was in combination with Survival of the Fittest.. that alone goes to show how slow Legacy can be to innovate & catch on. Heck I made a post in developing competitive about vengevival (before the deck became popular) in which people suggested I would be better off playing bant survival since it had more "answers" and that vengevine wasn't that great in there. See http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=265699 for reference... Given at the time in which I posted this, I hadn't added in the madness package, but it was still well before survival madness became popular.
I'm not saying DD is the best combo ever, but with that logic, phyrexian dreadnought can be sworded, pathed, griped, pridemaged, bounced, countered, and you loose 2 card.... anyway people still playing dreadnought combo. Dark depths can still be second or third turn clock. I don't compare dark depths and dreadstill in anyway, i took dreadnought just for example...
Saying DD is terrible because of sword, path, counter, bla, bla, is stupid. "i will never again play blue color, because something is called choke:rolleyes2:"
Maybe DD is not tier 1 deck, but it showed some good results like this example - http://www.mtgpulse.com/event.php?e=297&d=2473#2473
Also, there was time when people complaining about thopter sword combo would be bad in legacy. Well, what's the name of this topic?
It is good deck or terrible? It's slow, can be griped, pridemaged, EE-d, spell snared, and requires two card for trick. Probably it's not the best deck on the world, but still has the chance of winning in legacy...
The difference is stifle isn't useless by itself, and dark depths costs you a land drop and tempo, which so many popular decks being tempo oriented may cause problems. Vampire hexmage by itself is also a rather lackluster creature in legacy. small body, BB casting cost in a 2-3 color deck.
Also the combo isn't tutorable like Thopter+Foundry. Takes up more spots, ~7-8 (4x DD is risky on the manabase however) vs. 3-4. As E. Tutor can count as copies of each....
And as mentioned THopter-Foundry is far more resilient to main-deck answers like Stifle, Stp, Wasteland.
Also, DD combo isn't synergetic with humility.... and the lack of creatures in countertop/thopter is generally a bonus of making opposing removal worthless draws.
Vampire hexmage by itself is also a rather lackluster creature in legacy. small body, BB casting cost in a 2-3 color deck.
To give hexmage some possible beef use stoneforge mystic as the primary source for sword tutor but add in a basilisk collar. hexmages first strike plus death touch from collar would hose a lot of opposition.
plus collar is good all the way around.
least that might give you some blending of the two combos.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
@the whole HexDepths argument
People who suggest adding the combo; noone is arguing wheter it`s possible to play 4 Hexmages, some Tolaria Wests and a couple of Dark Depths in the deck. The big question is rather "why?". Sure, an alternate win-con sounds great (especially according to Matt Nass :tongue:), but I believe that in reality, you`re just diluting the deck`s abilety to control the game, or just win. What`s the problems with HexDepths in ThopterTop?
1. Marit Lage is a little shaky. As mentioned, she can get Plowed and Pathed. You can`t rely on a sacced Mage to end the game in the same manner ThopterSwords does
2. Including 4 Mages and the lands is easy. It will however change most versions of ThopterTop a lot. Mage is BB. That means you should play 1 basic Swamp, so Wasteland won`t just screw you over. Add in some tap-lands in Tolaria West, and you`re suddenly dealing with a manabase that is far uglier than at the very least my own.
3. Unless you start playing Muddle the Mixture or Diabolic Tutor (:rolleyes:), you will probably be looking at 3-4 Mages. While they definetly can hit Jace or Vial every once in a while, that`s not turning many heads. In Legacy, you want every card to count, and Elven Archer isn`t Legacy-fodder.
Until you stop theorycrafting, and start showing some results, you`re not doing much good coming into a thread about a deck you don`t play (I assume), and cough up suggestions that are completly untested.
________________________________
I`ve tweaked my own deck a little around not too long after my last post, and the main-move was including 3 Dark Confidants in the SB:
Naturally, I added a second Sea with the added amount of B. Getting rid of Seat seemed like a natural fit, and I have yet to miss it. 3 Ponders is also working fine, it really goes well with the deck with it`s many 1-ofs. The fact that it is the only sorcery in the deck is a little awkward, considering Goyf`-food. Extirpate I have tried before, and it`s mostly just to shake things up with the `yard-hate, and have another flexible card for other MUs. Oblivion Ring has just replaced Threads of Disloyalty, so I can`t make a statement on how it has worked. They`re fairly similar cards (3cc, tutorable, removal), but is undeniably more flexible. A couple of things have to go right to profit on the stolen creature (believe it, or not), I believe that Ring`s easy use will make it a better critter-hate choise.
Bob has, as predicted, shown 2 sides.
On one hand, he requires B, making the mana shakier and Back to Basics worse. They often come in together, which is awkward.
On the other hand, he`s a 2-mana game-winner that doesn`t die to Krosan Grip. I understand that there is no gain without gain without pain, and will continue the Bob-experiment for the moment. 3 seems like the perfect number, though I might try sometime with 4. Ponder really shines at coughing up a turn 2 Bob, those two cards go hand in hand.
So, please, if you tried 2 Rings, let me know. Or just figured out that playing 3 Bobs is just stupid, and the 4th should be included. Or, you know, any other comment on the deck.
@alnastas
Should`t be a problem to cough up a small tourney-report, if there is still any interest
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
but I'm a huge advocate of Humility. With your current list, would Humility not win games Moat is winning? You still make the army of tokens + gain life + die to anti-enchantment spells.
only thing with going the humility route is you might as well add in some factorys to get around the 1/1 size like landstill does just for insurance if foundry isn't online.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Round 1, Budget Goblins
This is a MU I like facing, as it`s fairly kold to a Moat and plays pretty fair unless a turn 1 Lackey resolves and survives (which is very rare). This particular opponent even played budget with Tectonic Edge instead of Wasteland and some other sub-optimal choises (imo) like at least 1 Goblin King and Mogg Fanatic.
I`m on the play, keeping 2x CB, FoW, 2x Island, Flooded Strand and Brainstorm. A great hand against most decks. My opponent has no mulligans either.
I respond to a turn 1 Lackey with BS, seeing a 3rd Island, EE and StP. Since I can just plow the Lackey, I wait with the FoW. (20)
I respond to his attack next turn with cracking Strand, shuffling an Island away, fetching Tundra and finally StP. He follows the Lackey with another one, which I don`t FoW since I have EE in hand. He miracolously throws down a Mogg Fanatic with his second Mountain, and things seems to go strongly in my favour. (19)
My third turn, I draw Moat, play EE fo 1 and pass. I crack it during his attack, and happily note he has no third mountain to go with his Piledriver. I draw a 2nd StP next turn, play CB, leaving Tundra up. He has a third land and a GKing before attackers, and failing to counter King (ET on top), I have to plow it. (17)
I draw ET and ship it back. He coughs up a 4th land, and Piledriver to go with it. Since Moat is allready in my hand, and I have no BS, things get kinda awkward. With Ponder on top, I`m "forced" to FoW, removing CB. (15)
Ponder reveals ET, StP and Ring, which doesn`t fit great with the Moat in my hand. I believe I make a mistake here by keeping the cards (from bottom; ET, Ring, StP). On one hand, there is nothing suggesting that my opponent is overloaded on "profit"-gobbos (SGC and Ringleader, for the most part). He has yet to have a turn where he didn`t get to play a card. On the other hand, keeping these cards (planning to shuffle away ET with ET, probly fetching Top) gets me nowhere closer to playing Moat, which spells close to "Game over". Shuffling would potentially get me a land, and chanses are slim I would get a Jace, CB or FoW (being dead at the moment, to different extents). Removal is sweet, but not when you run into P-Gobbos, without furthering your gameplan in the meantime. On his turn, my opponents plays a second Piledriver pre-combat (makes me cry a little inside:facepalm:), and since I will be using my Tundra for sure next turn, I plow his first Piledriver when he attacks. He has no follow-up to the GP. (15)
Drawing Ring, I decided that now is not the time to use it. I know I want to shuffle away ET, and while I can do it next upkeep, I`d rather be more flexible with the probable Top I`m getting, or just Ringing a "real" threath (GP is really not all that scary on it`s own), like Warchief or another King. What ends up happening is him drawing a 5th land, and throwing a SCG out there (pre-combat...). I know my topcard is ET, and I have ET and Moat in hand. I am certain I don`t want to draw ET next turn, and consider the following things to fetch with ET:
1. Engineered Explosives. It will get rid of 3 Gobbos, with none of them getting flinged at me, making GP that less scarier. I can then Ring one of the remaining two Gobs, assuming I don`t draw a W source. Which of them depends on the draw.
2. Pithing Needle. It will shut down SCG, resulting in Moat becoming an automatic win (assuming no Sharpshooter, or a weird card-choise, both of which are probly a long way further down the road and easely dealt with when needed to).
3. Top. This makes it that much easier to get the second W source, but will use up a turn without dealing with SCG. It will leave me in a better position after playing Moat though.
4. Nothing. I get the chanse to deal with SCG simply by revealing FoW, or just straight-up draw my desperatly needed land. I can also get a StP for SCG, but that is unlikely considering that I`ve allready used 3.
After thinking about it, I realize option 3 will leave me dead unless I spin Top right away into StP (great odds, I know:)). Option 2 will require me to Ring GP next turn, SCG and crew dealing 5 (10), and even if I get the W source from the top, I still haven`t actually played the Needle, meaning most likely that SCG can fling enough Gobbos to kill me before my next turn. If there is no 4th land, SCG w/ crew deals another 5 (5), and chanses are he either has another Gob to screw things up, or flings tokens in response to Needle, dealing at least 7 before a second chanse at Moat (probly 8, since no more Gobbos probably means a 6th land instead). Both option 1 and 4 are reasonable, but I prefer 1 since it leaves less things up to chanse. In retrospect, I believe 4 is best, since it gives the best odds of getting Moat down fast, which I undoubtly need to do sooner rather than later. Even if I don`t get land right away, I got a turn where I can Ring SCG, which I need to do anyway since Moat doesn`t deal with it.
Getting back to the actual events, ET fetches EE and GP takes a lonesome swing at me. (14)
I draw and play EE for 0 right away to avoid them getting thrown at my face in response. My opponent draws and plays a second Edge, then plays a second SCG (yes, I hate when people make such basic mistakes). CB shows Flooded Strand, and his 2 Gobs attack. (9)
I naturally drew and cracked it for a plains next turn, landing Moat. Opponent draws and plays a 5th Mountain, destroys Tundra with an Edge and flings 2 Gobs at me (which, you know, should actually be done in response to any removal I might have instead). No attacks though (4)
My lone out is Needle and I draw Flooded Strand instead. I concede.
Sideboarding
I`m not sure what I was thinking, but I ended up not adding Dark Confidants. I put in Halo, Journey to Nowhere and Engineered Plague, removing 2 CBs (which aren`t spectcular against Gobbos many high-end drops, nor Lackey or Vial) and the Relic of Progenitus.
I am on the play again and keep Ponder, Top, Journey, Jace, FoW, Sea and Tundra. Opp. also keeps his 7. I go Sea first, since I`d rather have that `Wasted than Tundra, and if he has no Lackey, I can spin into a potential StP (which means I have removal for GP next turn). I play Top rather than Ponder, two reasons why:
1. If lands keep coming, or a CB within 2 turns, I probably have my hands full so that I don`t play Ponder before Ringleaders start coming in. That makes it great FoW-fodder.
2. While there is a slight chanse I can cough up a CB next turn (which is trice as high with Ponder), I must most likely prepare myself for a Lackey next turn instead. I`d rather play Ponder when I know if I`m fighting Lackey, Vial or both. Opponent goes Mountain - Lackey (20)
I don`t top in my upkeep, since I will have to Journey Lackey. I draw StO the natural way, but still Journey Lackey since StP is way more flexible when I need to remove things later (like Warchief). Opponent just plays TecEdge into Vial. (20)
I top in my upkeep, seeing Plains, Ponder and EE. My mind takes a break, and I forget that I allready have Ponder in hand. Plains-EE-Ponder, from the bottom. I play Ponder, getting to also see a Halo. I draw the plains, leaving EE as the top-card, since I want to pop Vial away as quickly as possible. I tap Top to draw and play EE for 1. Opponents plays no land, but rather a surprising Ratchet Bomb, which gets rid of my EE. (20)
I draw Top, play Ponder, seeing Halo and 2 BSs. Since I`m happy with my hand, Halo is bad against an active Vial and what I really want is lands to play my Jace, I shuffle. Island comes of the top, and I play that and my Top (holding 2 mana up, with StP in hand). Opponent rips a land, and play Matron, fetching a surprising Warren Instigator. Vial throws it out immediantly (yeah...). EoT, I spin top and see Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand and Top. I order them Top - Tarn - Strand, from the bottom. This way I can play and protect Jace next turn. (20)
I play Jace, and use his BS-abilety. I `could` bounce WI, but that would allow Matron to put Jace at 1 counter. That would soon force me to get rid of Matron, since it would threaten to kill Jace, and noone likes a dead Jace. Also, free Brainstorms are awesome (which would be the reason I don`t +2). BS reveals ST, Top and Sword. Considering that I`m getting to draw a lot of cards (at least seeing a lot), Swords promises a combo-win in the near future. FoW is useless without a second U card, and for the moment, I`m planning to use the cards I draws (the ones I don`t need, get shuffled away). The second card that goes away is ST, since lands is something it`s easy to find with all this card-manipulation. In retrospect, I would put away the Top instead. I play my FS and pass. Opponent destroys the tapped Sea with Edge (leaving him at 2 Mountains), then Vials out GP first main-phase (:rolleyes:). WI goes at my face, while Matron attacks Jace. I pop the FS to get Tundra and plow the WI. (19)
I don`t top in my upkeep, since I will BS with Jace. I end up seeing 2 fetches and my 2 Foundries. I keep 1 of each, play Sword, TT and Misty Rainforest (for some reason putting Flooded Strand away, total brainfart). Opponent just plays Lackey (first main-phase:o), then swings at Jace with both Matron and GP (he should attack me with Matron here, giving me a greater incentive to make a Thopter and ambush him, tapping out in the process. It makes more sense if he plays his spells post-combat though). I get Sea with RF anyway, make a Thopter and kill Matron. Jace dies:mad: (19)
I top in my upkeep and my opponent concedes in response.
EDIT, game 3
I take to my senses, and sideboard in Bobs. I take out a Jace and 2 FoWs.
My opener on the draw is ET, 2 Bobs, FoW, Flooded Strand, Island and Wasteland. An easy keep, though a turn 1 Lackey could be rough.
Opponent goes fetch into mountain into Lackey. Great. Just great. (20)
I draw Strand and play it, considering the possebilety of fetching a Journey for Lackey if the free goblin isn`t too nutty. If that`s the case though, I will probably just play a Bob to battle with it. If I get SCG`ed, I have a problem, which ET into Plague `kinda` solves. These kind of situations can be very though and demoralizing, it happens that my mindsetsometimes just becomes "see what happens, then plan". Naturally, I need to see the goblins involved to make a calculated decision of the game-plan, but it`s a little sloppy to not have a proper plan for the next turns after seeing my opener.
As things turned out, my opponent hit me with Lackey, dropped Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and follows it up with a TecEdge and another Lackey (post-combat:)). I`m a little put off at this point, and mistakenly crack my fetch at the end of his turn, with no real plan. I end up getting a Sea, but don`t use it. (18)
I draw StP, and get into the tank. Since I cracked my fetch, I have just 1 W source, meaning I can`t both play ET and plow something. I belive it`s too late to get Plague with EE, now I need Moat. That means saving EE for next turn (since I desperatly need to affect the board this turn), and hope to cough up another W source on my next draw. This means I can either play Bob or Plow Kiki-Jiki (presumably). I end up playing a Bob, but I am almost certain in retrospect that that was a mistake. If I manage to land a Moat, KJ will in combination with most Gobbo-cards pose a threat, in some way or another. Also, before I land a Moat, KJ will speed up the kill a lot, he is simply a little too crazy. I need to plow it sooner, rather than later. A Bob in play won`t stop anything relevant at the moment, though he will at least double my chanses of getting another W source. Playing Bob is defensible, but a little too optimistic when you look at the facts.
Opponent goes Mountain, copy a Lackey, and swing with 3 of them. I block none, as I need W sources, and either he has a profit-gobbo and goes crazy, or he has some random Gobs, running out of steam and the need to useLackey as a play-outlet. Either way, putting Bob in front of a Lackey will do little to help me against either option.
The 3 critters opp. puts into play are Ringleader (getting Matron and Piledriver), Matron (getting Ringleader) and finally a second Ringleader (getting Warchief, Matron and SGC). Post-combat, he plays a Warchief. I have a problem. (14)
I draw Sea from Bob and EE the natural way. Things are fairly lost now, but I still plow KJ (a turn too late :-/), play Wasteland (mistake, I should rather play Island, since I`m not Wasting anything anytime soon, and I might get caught up in a turn with a lot of Ponders and BSs), then Bob nr. 2.
Opponent plays a second TecEdge, plays a Matron, gets and plays GP (he has a discount from Warchief) and swings with 1 big team. I have to block the GP and want to kill Warchief. He has the most game-influence after a Moat. The 2 Lackeys put SCG and another GP into play. (6)
I draw Ponder, play it and concede after seeing no Infest on top.
There we go, hope it`s not too difficult to keep track. I`ll probably post some more match-summaries over the weekend, in a new post
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Not at all I think that going through your thought process helps a lot when preparing for match ups... I hope you get the time to post more on this as well as different match ups. It's really helpful and I appreciate it!
I see from replays that my opponent is playing what seems to be a combodeck that fizzles twice, or just a weird control-deck. It gets beaten down in 2 games by BantNO, from what I can recall at least. He plays Anchient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Daddy-Jaces, FoWs and lots of cantrips
Losing the die-roll, I see a hand of ET, StP, BS, Needle, CB, Sword and a Plains. This hand definetly is no keeper, even if ET could get me a Seat of the Synod. Have yet to miss that card. Evil* keeps his 7, but I mull into 2x Ponder, Crucible of Worlds, Sea, a Plains and Wasteland. This gives me a temporary plan (playing Crucible and destroying his manabase), but Ponder will probably alter that plan quickly.
Evil plays a Tomb and passes. I draw an Island, play it and Ponder. It shows ET, EE and Tundra. ET equals good times, as it can get a CB or Top, and is a shuffle-effect that works really well with what I allready know and my second Ponder. EE seems very bad in this MU, but I can avoid drawing it by putting it at the bottom, then Pondering (most likely taking one of the cards below EE), then ET to fetch whatever works best with that card. Having a 4th land is slightly awkward with Crucible in hand, but since none of them are fetches, I need real lands to get more mana anyways. I order the cards, from the bottom: EE - Tundra - ET. This is definetly wrong, it should be EE - ET - Tundra. While I haven`t seen any Duress-effects from my opponent, that would be more likely than Extirpate or Jace taking a look at my top card.
Evil play Petal, cracks it to play Brainstorm, then plays another Tomb and passes.
I draw Tundra, play Ponder and see Moat, EE and Top. I naturally order them (from the bottom, always from the bottom): Moat - EE - Top. I play Tundra, then Top. I `could` play Plains/Tundra, then ET at the end of his turn. As far as I can tell, in retrospect, there`s no real difference, except I may want to get a Ring to kill Jace. Oh well
Evil does nothing on his turn.
I ET in my upkeep, Evil concedes during resolution (and very prematurly so, IMHO)
Evil goes first and mulls to 6. I keep a hand of Top, SP, BS, 2 Plains, Misty Rainforest and Flooded Strand.
Evil goes fetch (19) into Underground Sea and plays Ponder, deciding to keep his cards.
I draw ET, play plains (saving my fetches, since I`m pretty sure I want to top in my upkeep, then shuffle away the worst cards), then Top.
Evil plays Tomb, Petal and use them (17) for a daddy-Jace. Uh-oh. Jace BSs, and Evil passes the turn.
I need to deal with Jace quickly, and decide it`s worth it to not play around Daze (and to a certain degree FoW, since I get SP-mana next turn). Free BSs are bad news. I ET in my upkeep, get Needle, play and crack MR (19) to get Tundra and play Needle (naming Jace, duh).
Evil plays BS, plays a fetch to get an Island (16), then taps out for Show and Tell. Turns out he`s combo...I `can` use Top to get a theoretical chanse at FoWing, but since Emrakul won`t kill me immediantly, I`d rather drop a land from my hand to start searching for an answer. I let it resolve, and right out of the blue Evil drops a Dream Halls. Reconsidering, I put my Flooded Strand into play with S&T. Evil then discards a BS to play Cruel Ultimatum. For those of you not keeping track, Evil has no cards in hand now. I crack Strand (18) to get Sea, and Pierce his Ult. Good times.
I top in my upkeep, see FoW, Sea and CB. I order them Sea - FoW - CB, then play the CB and my Plains (1 card remaining in hand, BS).
So far, I`ve done a very detailed write-up, but the next part is very boring, and there is little to learn. We play draw-go for 5 turns or so, with me accumelating 3 FoWs and 2 ETs, while building up my manabase in the meantime. I finally decide to go fetch O-Ring at the end of his turn, and when I reveal Spell Pierce to his Annul, Evil concedes.
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Has anyone thought of the new tez for this deck? im sure he could be useful but is he worth the black splash?
@alnastas: He looks cool, but the problem I see is that for the same CMC, we could get Jace 2.0, Humility, or Wrath of God (if you run that), all of which arguably affect the board far more than either of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas' +/- abilities. Not mention the aforementioned cards are a little bit easier on the manabase, though that's more of a nitpick than any real complaint against the planeswalker. He seems to be more of a card to build around, as opposed to being a card that complements what this deck is trying to do.
Since I'm relatively inexperienced at piloting this deck, I had a couple of questions. Since we have separate combos going on in the exact same CMC range, what combo do you guys try to set up first? CounterTop soft lock or the Thopter/Sword? Does what you go for first depends on your opening hand more, or what the opponent is playing? I'm sure it's dependent on some mix of both, but I just wanted to hear some opinions since I love running this deck, but don't plan on taking it out to a tourney until I get some more feedback and experience with this deck.
The SB is a very general thing I put together if I were to go to the meta at my LGS. The biggest question I've had so far has been whether I want the Firespouts in the main or in the side. I love Wrath of God, but it does throw off the mana curve quite a bit. I've also considered dropping the third Thopter Foundry, but I'm not sure what I'd add in its place. Preferably something blue, since the fact that it can pitch to FoW is rather nice. I've considered: Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven...any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.
@alnastas
Short answer on why Tezzeret v. 2 doesn`t fit into this deck: JTMS
Long answer; Jace does what Tezzeret does (CA, deal with threats, pose a game-ending threath), just better. Also, Tezzeret requires a lot more work to fit into the deck. You`d like more aritfacts, and probably critters in the deck (since making your Seat of the Synod a 5/5 isn`t doing much good if it just get`s Plowed the next turn). He`s at the 4-slot, which requires a lot, and he just can`t compete with Jace.
@.fortune
The deck is looking good, and you should have little qualms bringing it to a tournament, assuming you have enough experience piloting it. I do have a couple of suggestions and questions though
Suggestions
-Switch Humility with Moat, unless money/availebilety is an issue. You can see an earlier post of mine on page 5, if you`d like me to elaborate
-Cut a Thopter Foundry. It`s abilty to kill Vendillion Clique singlehandedly is not to be underestimated, but without Sword, it just isn`t doing much. You may pitch it to FoW without thinking much about the consequences, but I almost never have an issue with that (and I play 2, and frequently SB down to 1 (along with some FoWs though)). There`s a reason you play Enlightened Tutor; So that you don`t have to dilute your deck with 4 Foundries and Swords.
-Add the 4th Top. It`s just that good, and will frequently determine the winner in control-mirrors. As you will soon discover (or allready have), the second, third, or even 4th Top you draw in games aren`t anywhere near dead. For the most part, you will be having 2 in play, so that you`re able to counter a 1CC-spell with CB (when there is no other 1cc-spell in your top3-cards), while retaining the abilety to spin Top in response to later spells that turn. You can also sac Top in response to activating it`s second abilty, which straight-up draw you a card. You`re always happy to see Top in your opener. Why should you play 3?
-Add the Pithing Needle to the main. It does sooo much, if you play it correctly. It`s also a great answer to Vial
Questions
-How has Ensnaring Brigde worked out? I`ve never tried it, though I can see it being a contender. Moat just seems straight-up better, but cosing 1 less is certainly huge in Legacy, and it can be reccured with Ruins, which is always good.
-Have you gotten some play-time with Karmic Justice yet? It seems waaaay too slow, but nuking permanents for free it nothing to scoff at. Where do you bring it in?
As for your question, yes, it most definetly is a result of evaluating both your own position, and your opponent`s and his deck. In general, I would go for the ThopterSword first pre-board, and CB-Top post-board. Extirpate and Krosan Grip can really screw things up, and with CB-Top you at least have a Top to show for it if something get`s Gripped. That`s very,very general though, deciding which combo to go for is a skill you develop by playing with the deck a lot.
Other than this, it all seem like individual, reasonable choises. Playing Counterspell main is the norm, and while I don`t do it myself, I won`t try to push Ponder, or anything like that, on you. Good luck with the deck
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
@.fortune
The deck is looking good, and you should have little qualms bringing it to a tournament, assuming you have enough experience piloting it. I do have a couple of suggestions and questions though
Suggestions
-Switch Humility with Moat, unless money/availebilety is an issue. You can see an earlier post of mine on page 5, if you`d like me to elaborate.
First off, thanks for the critique. Always nice to have well thought out commentary and opinions to a list
Back to business, in regards to Moat, yea, money is the main issue here. I can totally see where/why Moat would be awesome, but my main issue with it (money aside) is that the only truly relevant flyer kinda just laughs at it, should it hit the table. In testing so far, I've loved how much Humility levels the field, and puts it in our favor, since our 1/1s/life gain/recurring 1/1s eat anything our opponent puts out for lunch. Combined with Firespout, I haven't been too concerned about merely shrinking threats as opposing to outright stopping them. Personal preference I suppose?
-Cut a Thopter Foundry. It`s abilty to kill Vendillion Clique singlehandedly is not to be underestimated, but without Sword, it just isn`t doing much. You may pitch it to FoW without thinking much about the consequences, but I almost never have an issue with that (and I play 2, and frequently SB down to 1 (along with some FoWs though)). There`s a reason you play Enlightened Tutor; So that you don`t have to dilute your deck with 4 Foundries and Swords.
-Add the 4th Top. It`s just that good, and will frequently determine the winner in control-mirrors. As you will soon discover (or allready have), the second, third, or even 4th Top you draw in games aren`t anywhere near dead. For the most part, you will be having 2 in play, so that you`re able to counter a 1CC-spell with CB (when there is no other 1cc-spell in your top3-cards), while retaining the abilety to spin Top in response to later spells that turn. You can also sac Top in response to activating it`s second abilty, which straight-up draw you a card. You`re always happy to see Top in your opener. Why should you play 3?
Here's where our opinions diverge. To me, successive Tops have seemed subpar to me, since I felt like they just weren't doing much or just clogged up my hand - I suppose this comes from my background in playing Landstill as my deck of choice. I guess I was looking at it from the "wrong" perspective here. With this perspective, 3x Tops seemed right since I saw them often enough, without them clogging my hand. I didn't look at them from your perspective, so I will indeed try that out. Extra fuel for Foundry, and guranteed 1cmc counters. Sounds good, thanks!
-Add the Pithing Needle to the main. It does sooo much, if you play it correctly. It`s also a great answer to Vial
Well, I'll be replacing the third Foundry with the fourth Top, so I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I love the idea of it though, since a Needle is so versatile. The other cards I'd have remaining are all cards that have tested very well for me, so I'm loathe to cut them. Maybe the Oblivion Ring, but I'd like to preserve the mana curve I have currently.
Questions
-How has Ensnaring Bridge worked out? I`ve never tried it, though I can see it being a contender. Moat just seems straight-up better, but cosing 1 less is certainly huge in Legacy, and it can be reccured with Ruins, which is always good.
-Have you gotten some play-time with Karmic Justice yet? It seems waaaay too slow, but nuking permanents for free it nothing to scoff at. Where do you bring it in?
- I have absolutely LOVED Ensnaring Bridge. It serves as a pseudo-Moat, that plays well with Humility and is easy to play around. "Holding a card --> attack --> play whatever you drew," is my favorite thing with this deck. With the cards I run, it's not hard to maintain an empty, or close to empty hand. Definitely something I recommend for those who choose not to run Moat.
- Karmic Justice is something my friend suggested in order to punish hate that looks to get rid of our combo pieces: Wasteland, Krosan Grip, Shattering Spree, etc. etc. It is a bit slow admittedly, but the fact that I'm able to hit anything they have on the board once I get it up and running is quite nice. It's been excellent against Zoo, Goblins...anything with targeted removal. However, it does suck against Extirpate and anything that asks for sacrifice effects. Merfolk also tend to laugh to not care about it as well.
As for your question, yes, it most definetly is a result of evaluating both your own position, and your opponent`s and his deck. In general, I would go for the ThopterSword first pre-board, and CB-Top post-board. Extirpate and Krosan Grip can really screw things up, and with CB-Top you at least have a Top to show for it if something get`s Gripped. That`s very,very general though, deciding which combo to go for is a skill you develop by playing with the deck a lot.
Other than this, it all seem like individual, reasonable choises. Playing Counterspell main is the norm, and while I don`t do it myself, I won`t try to push Ponder, or anything like that, on you. Good luck with the deck
Thanks for the advice, and the good luck wishes. I'll keep it in mind, cheers.
I like that the deck does put up results, especially considering that I played Thopter combo in Extended. Still, more traditional style CounterTop decks prove to be overall more successful. It's hard to say that they are more successful because it is a better deck though, because it can just as easily be attributed to the fact that traditional CounterTop lists are just played in much higher numbers.
I like that the deck does put up results, especially considering that I played Thopter combo in Extended. Still, more traditional style CounterTop decks prove to be overall more successful. It's hard to say that they are more successful because it is a better deck though, because it can just as easily be attributed to the fact that traditional CounterTop lists are just played in much higher numbers.
If you watched game 3 of the mirror, the Thopter player punted. He left lands open for 7 or 8 turns to let his opponent draw answers even though he had CounterTop on the board and ThopterSword in hand. He could have easily won.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BEEP BOOP BEEP
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
4 swords to plowshare
3 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 enlightened tutor
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 sensei's divining top
2 thopter foundry
1 engineered exlosives
1 sword of the meek
1 crucibleo of worlds
1 oblivion ring
1 humility
1 tezzret the seeker
1 elspeth, knight-errant
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 undergrouns dea
4 tundra
3 island
1 plains
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 wasteland
Humility over moat is not a budget choice.
Dark Confidant is good despite the "no creatures blanks removal" argument.
Jace 2.0 would take elspeth's slot but not tezz's. Tezz is really good.
4x Underground Sea
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Island
2x Tolaria West
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmot
1x Academy Ruins
4x Dark Depths
1x Vivid Marsh
Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
1x Trinket Mage
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Inquistion of Kozile
4x Brainstorm
4x Muddle the Mixture
4x Rune Snag
1x Slaughter Pact
Artifacts:
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Sword of the Meek
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Thopter Foudry
Enchantments:
2x Counterbalance
4x Duress
3x Echoing Truth
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Memoricide
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Trinket Mage
So far I have been very impressed with this deck and it has alot of great matchups. I'm thinking about adding 2x Mindbreak Trap to the SB for combo but so far i'm in love.
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
1x Academy Ruins
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Wasteland
5x Island
2x Plains
Sorceries (2)
2x Ponder
Instants (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Predict
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei´s Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
Enchantments (6)
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tormod´s Crypt
4x Spell Pierce
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Runed Halo
1x Serenity
1x Back to Basics
1x Theads of Disloyalty
1x Engineered Plague
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Some points on particular cards:
1x Wasteland
This was in from the start, and has stayed all the time. This deck doesn`t excactly `love` colourless mana, but the utility Wasteland provides is well worth the increased chanse of colourscrewing yourself. I do not necessarily encourage including it in builds without Crucible, but with it, it`s a legitimate gameplan to tutor up Crucible to destroy your opponents manabase.
1x Seat of the Synod
I`m simply not sure anymore wheter this card has enough upsides to cover all it`s weaknesses. It dodges Scald and Choke and is an artifact for Foundry. On the other hand, it`s a non-basic, with all the negative aspects connected to that, and it doesn`t play well with Quasali Pridemage.
Yes, it can be tutored up with ET, but I think I`ve done that no more than 3 times in 300-ish matches. Opinions?
2x Ponder and 1x Predict
These are fairly recent inclusions after quite a bit of testing with Opt, Preordain and the two cards above. Both Opt and Preordain turned out to pretty much suck, while Ponder and Predict both have great sinergy with the rest of the deck. These slots are usually held by Counterspell, or similar, but I find that clunky against both aggro and most combo decks.
2x Engineered Explosives
There`s really no good reason (imo) to run this as just a singleton. These are excellent against so many decks, and so important at times that I want to have a back-up against discard, or just another go against zoo/Counterbalance.
4x Spell Pierce
Not long since I included these, and so far, so good. They used to be 4 Meddling Mages, but there`s a fair amount of problems with that card against control. Being able to realisticly stop turn 2 Counterbalance or turn 4 Jace is nice too.
Suggestions or questions? Please help me kick this thread alive again, ThopterTop is a Tier1 deck, and deserves more attention
@XIXSPIDERXI
I assume this is budget? The deck seems to be screaming for FoWs and Fetches (AND removal). I think you`re in the wrong sub-forum, unless you intend to make drastic changes.
@Xwt
I`ve used Humilty for 6 months (mostly in the SB, a little main), and eventually figured out that 4 mana is too much to play for a card that actually doesn`t deal with my opponents threats, it just makes them smaller. I`m curious to hear how you found Humilty to be better than Moat, a card I never could imagine cutting from the deck. So many deck just flat-out lose game 1, and game 2/3 it`s just a matter of protecting it.
I have also tried Elspeth, as a singleton, and hated her guts. She just doesn`t work with anything else in the deck, and takes up a precious high-end spot.
@yutang and Aggro-Vated Assault
Have any of you tested the Scepter? I have no qualms admitting I haven`t, it could be interesting as a singleton. I`m very sceptical to including more than that though (and in general focusing the deck on such a slow card, when you have CounterTop as a far simpler CA/Control-machine)
Lots of questions because this looks tweaked enough to ask.
2x Ponder + 1x Predict does look viable. I am sure the testing is behind this decision, but how did this compare to 3x Confidant? Confidant would mean you need more black in the lands department and potentially cutting down to 3x Top to avoid too much manipulation, however, what kept you from this?
Additionally, the 4 Tops + 2 Predict route has always been an option for decks using said cards. Why does Ponder get the 2x over Predict?
Are there times you wanted more Predict?
For those playing in real life, Moat isn't a realistic option because it's past $200. No piece of cardboard is worth that imo -- but I'm a huge advocate of Humility. With your current list, would Humility not win games Moat is winning? You still make the army of tokens + gain life + die to anti-enchantment spells.
Lastly, your thoughts on MD removal. 4 Swords + 2 EE is the only thing you've got to hold the fort. Explosives also has the potential to ruin your end of the table. Are you ever lacking in defense/feeling you need to further tweak this aspect?
Sorry for the interrogation, this list had me thinking.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I have yet to test Dark Confidant in the deck. There are several reasons for that, which I naturally will outline. Before I start though, I`d like to make it clear that I intend to test him sometime, although sometime might not be tomorrow
-He`s a creature. This has been mentioned in previous discussions on him, and I firmly belive that making all maindeck removal in the opponents deck live is very bad. We`re playing Legacy, not Vintage. Close to all decks run a fair amount of removal, and the ones who doesn`t are too fast for Bob. When I start testing him, chanses are he will begin in the SB
-He`s pretty much useless as a creature. A 2/1 does very little when battling Nacatls and Kird Apes. A 2/1 isn`t doing meaningfull damage to ANT (though that`s a great MU, so it doesn`t matter that much), and Goyf makes him look like a joke against Control. I can imagine him doing "ok" against Jace, and doing a decent job at trading with fishies and Piledrivers.
-He`s painfull. Playing 4 FoWs can lead to some ugly situations. I realise this is a rather minor problem, due to probabileties, and card-manipulation.
-He`s B. That pretty much means just adding another Underground Sea, but I dislike the added amount of non-basics. Perhaps I will try cutting Seat of the Synod at the same time I try the Bob-experiment.
In conclusion; I believe he doesn`t fit the deck, but I haven`t actually tried him yet. The only place I could see him at the moment, is in the sideboard, replacing Jace, 1-2 Pierce and 0-1 Grave-hate.
As for 2x Ponder and 1x Predict, I actually tried 2x Predict instead of Counterspell when I first started tweaking the deck*. Then it became Spell Snare, or maybe it was the opposite way, can`t remember. Then slots for testing U-cantrips, then finally 2x Ponder and 1x Predict.
The point is, I have tested 2x Predict before, and there`s really nothing wrong with that, except for speed. I`m actually considering going 3x Ponder, but for the moment, I will carry on with my singleton Predict. Drawing 2 cards at instant speed is awesome, but it`s slow and it`s rare that I know what I`m drawing with the second draw, or naturally in my draw-phase (which I dislike). Esper Charm could actually be a not-too-crazy idea, though that seems even slower.
Moat/Humility
I don`t quite see your point on Make tokens + Gain life. Close to every time I get the combo going, I don`t care if Moat is in play, as I`m making an army that you need a crazy Goblin-board or Islandwalking fishies to overcome.
The way I see it, Humility only has the advantage over Moat in it`s abilety to deal with utility-critters**. However, rarely care how full my opponents `yard is to fuel Grim Lavamancer, how many goblins Siege-Gang Commander is about to send flying at my face, or how many Wastelands Knight of the Reliquary will fetch unless I allready have Moat in play. If I tap out turn 4 after tutoring up Humility, I`m not actually stopping those 2 Piledrivers, Warchief and that Goblin Matron. I`m just making them 1/1s and have to kill them anyways 2 turns later. It`s turn 4, chanses are I`ve allready taken a serious beating. I want the card I spend to cards on and 5 mana to actually stop the beatings. I could see a case for including it if you have 1-3 Factories, but that sounds like a lot of colourless mana.
Maindeck removal
I have definetly never considered adding maindeck Paths or something like Smother. Moat and Jace are also removal, the former definetly more so though. I am usually EE-ing for 0 or 1, it`s rare that I blow up any of my own stuff. Only exception where thing get kinda awkward is Survival, but that`s luckily gone soon
*the original can be found in this article http://puremtgo.com/articles/whiffys-lunch-box-43-back-countertop
**Yes, and against fliers, but those are few and far between in Legacy at the moment
also
what are the win percentages against common decks that will be in an average meta also what decks are unwinnable matchups?
Currently Playing:
Retired
you can play it but do realize as barl said theres a lot of problems the marit lage combo faces unlike extended.
on the other hand the thopter deck i've ran with marginal success that had dual combo was polymorph emrakul.
simple case of running a man land as its primary/secondary creature source for polymorph.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Wasteland is a non-factor if you have a hexmage in play anyway since you can just sac in response to wasteland.
I'm not saying it's something the deck should "depend on" but if you're playing permission, standstills, and other standard control cards, it's a quick and easy win condition that gives you the potential to win in a rapid fashion if you need to.
Finally, it's a relatively small package... requiring 4 hexmages, 1 dark depths, and a few tolaria wests, which are good cards here anyway since they tutor for explosives, and a lot of other generally good cards.
As far as the "I haven't seen it top 8" a ton... this is a terrible argument as Legacy is notoriously slow to adapt to new archetypes. Vengevine was around for about 6 months before people started understanding how broken it was in combination with Survival of the Fittest.. that alone goes to show how slow Legacy can be to innovate & catch on. Heck I made a post in developing competitive about vengevival (before the deck became popular) in which people suggested I would be better off playing bant survival since it had more "answers" and that vengevine wasn't that great in there. See http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=265699 for reference... Given at the time in which I posted this, I hadn't added in the madness package, but it was still well before survival madness became popular.
The difference is stifle isn't useless by itself, and dark depths costs you a land drop and tempo, which so many popular decks being tempo oriented may cause problems. Vampire hexmage by itself is also a rather lackluster creature in legacy. small body, BB casting cost in a 2-3 color deck.
Also the combo isn't tutorable like Thopter+Foundry. Takes up more spots, ~7-8 (4x DD is risky on the manabase however) vs. 3-4. As E. Tutor can count as copies of each....
And as mentioned THopter-Foundry is far more resilient to main-deck answers like Stifle, Stp, Wasteland.
Also, DD combo isn't synergetic with humility.... and the lack of creatures in countertop/thopter is generally a bonus of making opposing removal worthless draws.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
To give hexmage some possible beef use stoneforge mystic as the primary source for sword tutor but add in a basilisk collar. hexmages first strike plus death touch from collar would hose a lot of opposition.
plus collar is good all the way around.
least that might give you some blending of the two combos.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
People who suggest adding the combo; noone is arguing wheter it`s possible to play 4 Hexmages, some Tolaria Wests and a couple of Dark Depths in the deck. The big question is rather "why?". Sure, an alternate win-con sounds great (especially according to Matt Nass :tongue:), but I believe that in reality, you`re just diluting the deck`s abilety to control the game, or just win. What`s the problems with HexDepths in ThopterTop?
1. Marit Lage is a little shaky. As mentioned, she can get Plowed and Pathed. You can`t rely on a sacced Mage to end the game in the same manner ThopterSwords does
2. Including 4 Mages and the lands is easy. It will however change most versions of ThopterTop a lot. Mage is BB. That means you should play 1 basic Swamp, so Wasteland won`t just screw you over. Add in some tap-lands in Tolaria West, and you`re suddenly dealing with a manabase that is far uglier than at the very least my own.
3. Unless you start playing Muddle the Mixture or Diabolic Tutor (:rolleyes:), you will probably be looking at 3-4 Mages. While they definetly can hit Jace or Vial every once in a while, that`s not turning many heads. In Legacy, you want every card to count, and Elven Archer isn`t Legacy-fodder.
Until you stop theorycrafting, and start showing some results, you`re not doing much good coming into a thread about a deck you don`t play (I assume), and cough up suggestions that are completly untested.
________________________________
I`ve tweaked my own deck a little around not too long after my last post, and the main-move was including 3 Dark Confidants in the SB:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
1x Academy Ruins
1x Wasteland
5x Island
2x Plains
Sorceries (3)
3x Ponder
Instants (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei´s Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
Enchantments (6)
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Tormod´s Crypt
2x Spell Pierce
1x Extirpate
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Dark Confidant
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Runed Halo
1x Serenity
1x Back to Basics
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Engineered Plague
Naturally, I added a second Sea with the added amount of B. Getting rid of Seat seemed like a natural fit, and I have yet to miss it. 3 Ponders is also working fine, it really goes well with the deck with it`s many 1-ofs. The fact that it is the only sorcery in the deck is a little awkward, considering Goyf`-food. Extirpate I have tried before, and it`s mostly just to shake things up with the `yard-hate, and have another flexible card for other MUs. Oblivion Ring has just replaced Threads of Disloyalty, so I can`t make a statement on how it has worked. They`re fairly similar cards (3cc, tutorable, removal), but is undeniably more flexible. A couple of things have to go right to profit on the stolen creature (believe it, or not), I believe that Ring`s easy use will make it a better critter-hate choise.
Bob has, as predicted, shown 2 sides.
On one hand, he requires B, making the mana shakier and Back to Basics worse. They often come in together, which is awkward.
On the other hand, he`s a 2-mana game-winner that doesn`t die to Krosan Grip. I understand that there is no gain without gain without pain, and will continue the Bob-experiment for the moment. 3 seems like the perfect number, though I might try sometime with 4. Ponder really shines at coughing up a turn 2 Bob, those two cards go hand in hand.
So, please, if you tried 2 Rings, let me know. Or just figured out that playing 3 Bobs is just stupid, and the 4th should be included. Or, you know, any other comment on the deck.
@alnastas
Should`t be a problem to cough up a small tourney-report, if there is still any interest
Yes i am still interested in receiving a small tourney-report.
Thanks
only thing with going the humility route is you might as well add in some factorys to get around the 1/1 size like landstill does just for insurance if foundry isn't online.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Round 1, Budget Goblins
This is a MU I like facing, as it`s fairly kold to a Moat and plays pretty fair unless a turn 1 Lackey resolves and survives (which is very rare). This particular opponent even played budget with Tectonic Edge instead of Wasteland and some other sub-optimal choises (imo) like at least 1 Goblin King and Mogg Fanatic.
I`m on the play, keeping 2x CB, FoW, 2x Island, Flooded Strand and Brainstorm. A great hand against most decks. My opponent has no mulligans either.
I respond to a turn 1 Lackey with BS, seeing a 3rd Island, EE and StP. Since I can just plow the Lackey, I wait with the FoW. (20)
I respond to his attack next turn with cracking Strand, shuffling an Island away, fetching Tundra and finally StP. He follows the Lackey with another one, which I don`t FoW since I have EE in hand. He miracolously throws down a Mogg Fanatic with his second Mountain, and things seems to go strongly in my favour. (19)
My third turn, I draw Moat, play EE fo 1 and pass. I crack it during his attack, and happily note he has no third mountain to go with his Piledriver. I draw a 2nd StP next turn, play CB, leaving Tundra up. He has a third land and a GKing before attackers, and failing to counter King (ET on top), I have to plow it. (17)
I draw ET and ship it back. He coughs up a 4th land, and Piledriver to go with it. Since Moat is allready in my hand, and I have no BS, things get kinda awkward. With Ponder on top, I`m "forced" to FoW, removing CB. (15)
Ponder reveals ET, StP and Ring, which doesn`t fit great with the Moat in my hand. I believe I make a mistake here by keeping the cards (from bottom; ET, Ring, StP). On one hand, there is nothing suggesting that my opponent is overloaded on "profit"-gobbos (SGC and Ringleader, for the most part). He has yet to have a turn where he didn`t get to play a card. On the other hand, keeping these cards (planning to shuffle away ET with ET, probly fetching Top) gets me nowhere closer to playing Moat, which spells close to "Game over". Shuffling would potentially get me a land, and chanses are slim I would get a Jace, CB or FoW (being dead at the moment, to different extents). Removal is sweet, but not when you run into P-Gobbos, without furthering your gameplan in the meantime. On his turn, my opponents plays a second Piledriver pre-combat (makes me cry a little inside:facepalm:), and since I will be using my Tundra for sure next turn, I plow his first Piledriver when he attacks. He has no follow-up to the GP. (15)
Drawing Ring, I decided that now is not the time to use it. I know I want to shuffle away ET, and while I can do it next upkeep, I`d rather be more flexible with the probable Top I`m getting, or just Ringing a "real" threath (GP is really not all that scary on it`s own), like Warchief or another King. What ends up happening is him drawing a 5th land, and throwing a SCG out there (pre-combat...). I know my topcard is ET, and I have ET and Moat in hand. I am certain I don`t want to draw ET next turn, and consider the following things to fetch with ET:
1. Engineered Explosives. It will get rid of 3 Gobbos, with none of them getting flinged at me, making GP that less scarier. I can then Ring one of the remaining two Gobs, assuming I don`t draw a W source. Which of them depends on the draw.
2. Pithing Needle. It will shut down SCG, resulting in Moat becoming an automatic win (assuming no Sharpshooter, or a weird card-choise, both of which are probly a long way further down the road and easely dealt with when needed to).
3. Top. This makes it that much easier to get the second W source, but will use up a turn without dealing with SCG. It will leave me in a better position after playing Moat though.
4. Nothing. I get the chanse to deal with SCG simply by revealing FoW, or just straight-up draw my desperatly needed land. I can also get a StP for SCG, but that is unlikely considering that I`ve allready used 3.
After thinking about it, I realize option 3 will leave me dead unless I spin Top right away into StP (great odds, I know:)). Option 2 will require me to Ring GP next turn, SCG and crew dealing 5 (10), and even if I get the W source from the top, I still haven`t actually played the Needle, meaning most likely that SCG can fling enough Gobbos to kill me before my next turn. If there is no 4th land, SCG w/ crew deals another 5 (5), and chanses are he either has another Gob to screw things up, or flings tokens in response to Needle, dealing at least 7 before a second chanse at Moat (probly 8, since no more Gobbos probably means a 6th land instead). Both option 1 and 4 are reasonable, but I prefer 1 since it leaves less things up to chanse. In retrospect, I believe 4 is best, since it gives the best odds of getting Moat down fast, which I undoubtly need to do sooner rather than later. Even if I don`t get land right away, I got a turn where I can Ring SCG, which I need to do anyway since Moat doesn`t deal with it.
Getting back to the actual events, ET fetches EE and GP takes a lonesome swing at me. (14)
I draw and play EE for 0 right away to avoid them getting thrown at my face in response. My opponent draws and plays a second Edge, then plays a second SCG (yes, I hate when people make such basic mistakes). CB shows Flooded Strand, and his 2 Gobs attack. (9)
I naturally drew and cracked it for a plains next turn, landing Moat. Opponent draws and plays a 5th Mountain, destroys Tundra with an Edge and flings 2 Gobs at me (which, you know, should actually be done in response to any removal I might have instead). No attacks though (4)
My lone out is Needle and I draw Flooded Strand instead. I concede.
Sideboarding
I`m not sure what I was thinking, but I ended up not adding Dark Confidants. I put in Halo, Journey to Nowhere and Engineered Plague, removing 2 CBs (which aren`t spectcular against Gobbos many high-end drops, nor Lackey or Vial) and the Relic of Progenitus.
I am on the play again and keep Ponder, Top, Journey, Jace, FoW, Sea and Tundra. Opp. also keeps his 7. I go Sea first, since I`d rather have that `Wasted than Tundra, and if he has no Lackey, I can spin into a potential StP (which means I have removal for GP next turn). I play Top rather than Ponder, two reasons why:
1. If lands keep coming, or a CB within 2 turns, I probably have my hands full so that I don`t play Ponder before Ringleaders start coming in. That makes it great FoW-fodder.
2. While there is a slight chanse I can cough up a CB next turn (which is trice as high with Ponder), I must most likely prepare myself for a Lackey next turn instead. I`d rather play Ponder when I know if I`m fighting Lackey, Vial or both. Opponent goes Mountain - Lackey (20)
I don`t top in my upkeep, since I will have to Journey Lackey. I draw StO the natural way, but still Journey Lackey since StP is way more flexible when I need to remove things later (like Warchief). Opponent just plays TecEdge into Vial. (20)
I top in my upkeep, seeing Plains, Ponder and EE. My mind takes a break, and I forget that I allready have Ponder in hand. Plains-EE-Ponder, from the bottom. I play Ponder, getting to also see a Halo. I draw the plains, leaving EE as the top-card, since I want to pop Vial away as quickly as possible. I tap Top to draw and play EE for 1. Opponents plays no land, but rather a surprising Ratchet Bomb, which gets rid of my EE. (20)
I draw Top, play Ponder, seeing Halo and 2 BSs. Since I`m happy with my hand, Halo is bad against an active Vial and what I really want is lands to play my Jace, I shuffle. Island comes of the top, and I play that and my Top (holding 2 mana up, with StP in hand). Opponent rips a land, and play Matron, fetching a surprising Warren Instigator. Vial throws it out immediantly (yeah...). EoT, I spin top and see Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand and Top. I order them Top - Tarn - Strand, from the bottom. This way I can play and protect Jace next turn. (20)
I play Jace, and use his BS-abilety. I `could` bounce WI, but that would allow Matron to put Jace at 1 counter. That would soon force me to get rid of Matron, since it would threaten to kill Jace, and noone likes a dead Jace. Also, free Brainstorms are awesome (which would be the reason I don`t +2). BS reveals ST, Top and Sword. Considering that I`m getting to draw a lot of cards (at least seeing a lot), Swords promises a combo-win in the near future. FoW is useless without a second U card, and for the moment, I`m planning to use the cards I draws (the ones I don`t need, get shuffled away). The second card that goes away is ST, since lands is something it`s easy to find with all this card-manipulation. In retrospect, I would put away the Top instead. I play my FS and pass. Opponent destroys the tapped Sea with Edge (leaving him at 2 Mountains), then Vials out GP first main-phase (:rolleyes:). WI goes at my face, while Matron attacks Jace. I pop the FS to get Tundra and plow the WI. (19)
I don`t top in my upkeep, since I will BS with Jace. I end up seeing 2 fetches and my 2 Foundries. I keep 1 of each, play Sword, TT and Misty Rainforest (for some reason putting Flooded Strand away, total brainfart). Opponent just plays Lackey (first main-phase:o), then swings at Jace with both Matron and GP (he should attack me with Matron here, giving me a greater incentive to make a Thopter and ambush him, tapping out in the process. It makes more sense if he plays his spells post-combat though). I get Sea with RF anyway, make a Thopter and kill Matron. Jace dies:mad: (19)
I top in my upkeep and my opponent concedes in response.
EDIT, game 3
I take to my senses, and sideboard in Bobs. I take out a Jace and 2 FoWs.
My opener on the draw is ET, 2 Bobs, FoW, Flooded Strand, Island and Wasteland. An easy keep, though a turn 1 Lackey could be rough.
Opponent goes fetch into mountain into Lackey. Great. Just great. (20)
I draw Strand and play it, considering the possebilety of fetching a Journey for Lackey if the free goblin isn`t too nutty. If that`s the case though, I will probably just play a Bob to battle with it. If I get SCG`ed, I have a problem, which ET into Plague `kinda` solves. These kind of situations can be very though and demoralizing, it happens that my mindsetsometimes just becomes "see what happens, then plan". Naturally, I need to see the goblins involved to make a calculated decision of the game-plan, but it`s a little sloppy to not have a proper plan for the next turns after seeing my opener.
As things turned out, my opponent hit me with Lackey, dropped Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and follows it up with a TecEdge and another Lackey (post-combat:)). I`m a little put off at this point, and mistakenly crack my fetch at the end of his turn, with no real plan. I end up getting a Sea, but don`t use it. (18)
I draw StP, and get into the tank. Since I cracked my fetch, I have just 1 W source, meaning I can`t both play ET and plow something. I belive it`s too late to get Plague with EE, now I need Moat. That means saving EE for next turn (since I desperatly need to affect the board this turn), and hope to cough up another W source on my next draw. This means I can either play Bob or Plow Kiki-Jiki (presumably). I end up playing a Bob, but I am almost certain in retrospect that that was a mistake. If I manage to land a Moat, KJ will in combination with most Gobbo-cards pose a threat, in some way or another. Also, before I land a Moat, KJ will speed up the kill a lot, he is simply a little too crazy. I need to plow it sooner, rather than later. A Bob in play won`t stop anything relevant at the moment, though he will at least double my chanses of getting another W source. Playing Bob is defensible, but a little too optimistic when you look at the facts.
Opponent goes Mountain, copy a Lackey, and swing with 3 of them. I block none, as I need W sources, and either he has a profit-gobbo and goes crazy, or he has some random Gobs, running out of steam and the need to useLackey as a play-outlet. Either way, putting Bob in front of a Lackey will do little to help me against either option.
The 3 critters opp. puts into play are Ringleader (getting Matron and Piledriver), Matron (getting Ringleader) and finally a second Ringleader (getting Warchief, Matron and SGC). Post-combat, he plays a Warchief. I have a problem. (14)
I draw Sea from Bob and EE the natural way. Things are fairly lost now, but I still plow KJ (a turn too late :-/), play Wasteland (mistake, I should rather play Island, since I`m not Wasting anything anytime soon, and I might get caught up in a turn with a lot of Ponders and BSs), then Bob nr. 2.
Opponent plays a second TecEdge, plays a Matron, gets and plays GP (he has a discount from Warchief) and swings with 1 big team. I have to block the GP and want to kill Warchief. He has the most game-influence after a Moat. The 2 Lackeys put SCG and another GP into play. (6)
I draw Ponder, play it and concede after seeing no Infest on top.
There we go, hope it`s not too difficult to keep track. I`ll probably post some more match-summaries over the weekend, in a new post
I see from replays that my opponent is playing what seems to be a combodeck that fizzles twice, or just a weird control-deck. It gets beaten down in 2 games by BantNO, from what I can recall at least. He plays Anchient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Daddy-Jaces, FoWs and lots of cantrips
Losing the die-roll, I see a hand of ET, StP, BS, Needle, CB, Sword and a Plains. This hand definetly is no keeper, even if ET could get me a Seat of the Synod. Have yet to miss that card. Evil* keeps his 7, but I mull into 2x Ponder, Crucible of Worlds, Sea, a Plains and Wasteland. This gives me a temporary plan (playing Crucible and destroying his manabase), but Ponder will probably alter that plan quickly.
Evil plays a Tomb and passes. I draw an Island, play it and Ponder. It shows ET, EE and Tundra. ET equals good times, as it can get a CB or Top, and is a shuffle-effect that works really well with what I allready know and my second Ponder. EE seems very bad in this MU, but I can avoid drawing it by putting it at the bottom, then Pondering (most likely taking one of the cards below EE), then ET to fetch whatever works best with that card. Having a 4th land is slightly awkward with Crucible in hand, but since none of them are fetches, I need real lands to get more mana anyways. I order the cards, from the bottom: EE - Tundra - ET. This is definetly wrong, it should be EE - ET - Tundra. While I haven`t seen any Duress-effects from my opponent, that would be more likely than Extirpate or Jace taking a look at my top card.
Evil play Petal, cracks it to play Brainstorm, then plays another Tomb and passes.
I draw Tundra, play Ponder and see Moat, EE and Top. I naturally order them (from the bottom, always from the bottom): Moat - EE - Top. I play Tundra, then Top. I `could` play Plains/Tundra, then ET at the end of his turn. As far as I can tell, in retrospect, there`s no real difference, except I may want to get a Ring to kill Jace. Oh well
Evil does nothing on his turn.
I ET in my upkeep, Evil concedes during resolution (and very prematurly so, IMHO)
Sideboarding
-1 EE, 2 StP, RoP, Moat
+3 Bobs and 2 Spell Pierce
Evil goes first and mulls to 6. I keep a hand of Top, SP, BS, 2 Plains, Misty Rainforest and Flooded Strand.
Evil goes fetch (19) into Underground Sea and plays Ponder, deciding to keep his cards.
I draw ET, play plains (saving my fetches, since I`m pretty sure I want to top in my upkeep, then shuffle away the worst cards), then Top.
Evil plays Tomb, Petal and use them (17) for a daddy-Jace. Uh-oh. Jace BSs, and Evil passes the turn.
I need to deal with Jace quickly, and decide it`s worth it to not play around Daze (and to a certain degree FoW, since I get SP-mana next turn). Free BSs are bad news. I ET in my upkeep, get Needle, play and crack MR (19) to get Tundra and play Needle (naming Jace, duh).
Evil plays BS, plays a fetch to get an Island (16), then taps out for Show and Tell. Turns out he`s combo...I `can` use Top to get a theoretical chanse at FoWing, but since Emrakul won`t kill me immediantly, I`d rather drop a land from my hand to start searching for an answer. I let it resolve, and right out of the blue Evil drops a Dream Halls. Reconsidering, I put my Flooded Strand into play with S&T. Evil then discards a BS to play Cruel Ultimatum. For those of you not keeping track, Evil has no cards in hand now. I crack Strand (18) to get Sea, and Pierce his Ult. Good times.
I top in my upkeep, see FoW, Sea and CB. I order them Sea - FoW - CB, then play the CB and my Plains (1 card remaining in hand, BS).
So far, I`ve done a very detailed write-up, but the next part is very boring, and there is little to learn. We play draw-go for 5 turns or so, with me accumelating 3 FoWs and 2 ETs, while building up my manabase in the meantime. I finally decide to go fetch O-Ring at the end of his turn, and when I reveal Spell Pierce to his Annul, Evil concedes.
Another match done, hope it`s decent reading
*Yeah, I went there. Ochoa is just too awesome
@alnastas: He looks cool, but the problem I see is that for the same CMC, we could get Jace 2.0, Humility, or Wrath of God (if you run that), all of which arguably affect the board far more than either of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas' +/- abilities. Not mention the aforementioned cards are a little bit easier on the manabase, though that's more of a nitpick than any real complaint against the planeswalker. He seems to be more of a card to build around, as opposed to being a card that complements what this deck is trying to do.
Since I'm relatively inexperienced at piloting this deck, I had a couple of questions. Since we have separate combos going on in the exact same CMC range, what combo do you guys try to set up first? CounterTop soft lock or the Thopter/Sword? Does what you go for first depends on your opening hand more, or what the opponent is playing? I'm sure it's dependent on some mix of both, but I just wanted to hear some opinions since I love running this deck, but don't plan on taking it out to a tourney until I get some more feedback and experience with this deck.
For reference:
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
1x Plateau
4x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Seat of the Synod
4x Island
4x Plains
Countermagic - 10
2x Counterspell
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Humility
Draw//Utility - 19
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Path to Exile
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Karmic Justice
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Runed Halo
1x Pithing Needle
The SB is a very general thing I put together if I were to go to the meta at my LGS. The biggest question I've had so far has been whether I want the Firespouts in the main or in the side. I love Wrath of God, but it does throw off the mana curve quite a bit. I've also considered dropping the third Thopter Foundry, but I'm not sure what I'd add in its place. Preferably something blue, since the fact that it can pitch to FoW is rather nice. I've considered: Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven...any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.
:symu::symw::symr:: Landstill
:symu::symw::symr:: Enlightened ThopterTop
:symr:: Burn
Casual
:symb:: Reanimator
:symu::symb:: Faeries
"Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."
Rmns 8:38-39
Got cards? Need cards? It never hurts to ask!
Short answer on why Tezzeret v. 2 doesn`t fit into this deck: JTMS
Long answer; Jace does what Tezzeret does (CA, deal with threats, pose a game-ending threath), just better. Also, Tezzeret requires a lot more work to fit into the deck. You`d like more aritfacts, and probably critters in the deck (since making your Seat of the Synod a 5/5 isn`t doing much good if it just get`s Plowed the next turn). He`s at the 4-slot, which requires a lot, and he just can`t compete with Jace.
@.fortune
The deck is looking good, and you should have little qualms bringing it to a tournament, assuming you have enough experience piloting it. I do have a couple of suggestions and questions though
Suggestions
-Switch Humility with Moat, unless money/availebilety is an issue. You can see an earlier post of mine on page 5, if you`d like me to elaborate
-Cut a Thopter Foundry. It`s abilty to kill Vendillion Clique singlehandedly is not to be underestimated, but without Sword, it just isn`t doing much. You may pitch it to FoW without thinking much about the consequences, but I almost never have an issue with that (and I play 2, and frequently SB down to 1 (along with some FoWs though)). There`s a reason you play Enlightened Tutor; So that you don`t have to dilute your deck with 4 Foundries and Swords.
-Add the 4th Top. It`s just that good, and will frequently determine the winner in control-mirrors. As you will soon discover (or allready have), the second, third, or even 4th Top you draw in games aren`t anywhere near dead. For the most part, you will be having 2 in play, so that you`re able to counter a 1CC-spell with CB (when there is no other 1cc-spell in your top3-cards), while retaining the abilety to spin Top in response to later spells that turn. You can also sac Top in response to activating it`s second abilty, which straight-up draw you a card. You`re always happy to see Top in your opener. Why should you play 3?
-Add the Pithing Needle to the main. It does sooo much, if you play it correctly. It`s also a great answer to Vial
Questions
-How has Ensnaring Brigde worked out? I`ve never tried it, though I can see it being a contender. Moat just seems straight-up better, but cosing 1 less is certainly huge in Legacy, and it can be reccured with Ruins, which is always good.
-Have you gotten some play-time with Karmic Justice yet? It seems waaaay too slow, but nuking permanents for free it nothing to scoff at. Where do you bring it in?
As for your question, yes, it most definetly is a result of evaluating both your own position, and your opponent`s and his deck. In general, I would go for the ThopterSword first pre-board, and CB-Top post-board. Extirpate and Krosan Grip can really screw things up, and with CB-Top you at least have a Top to show for it if something get`s Gripped. That`s very,very general though, deciding which combo to go for is a skill you develop by playing with the deck a lot.
Other than this, it all seem like individual, reasonable choises. Playing Counterspell main is the norm, and while I don`t do it myself, I won`t try to push Ponder, or anything like that, on you. Good luck with the deck
First off, thanks for the critique. Always nice to have well thought out commentary and opinions to a list
Back to business, in regards to Moat, yea, money is the main issue here. I can totally see where/why Moat would be awesome, but my main issue with it (money aside) is that the only truly relevant flyer kinda just laughs at it, should it hit the table. In testing so far, I've loved how much Humility levels the field, and puts it in our favor, since our 1/1s/life gain/recurring 1/1s eat anything our opponent puts out for lunch. Combined with Firespout, I haven't been too concerned about merely shrinking threats as opposing to outright stopping them. Personal preference I suppose?
Yea, agreed on cutting the third Foundry.
Here's where our opinions diverge. To me, successive Tops have seemed subpar to me, since I felt like they just weren't doing much or just clogged up my hand - I suppose this comes from my background in playing Landstill as my deck of choice. I guess I was looking at it from the "wrong" perspective here. With this perspective, 3x Tops seemed right since I saw them often enough, without them clogging my hand. I didn't look at them from your perspective, so I will indeed try that out. Extra fuel for Foundry, and guranteed 1cmc counters. Sounds good, thanks!
Well, I'll be replacing the third Foundry with the fourth Top, so I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I love the idea of it though, since a Needle is so versatile. The other cards I'd have remaining are all cards that have tested very well for me, so I'm loathe to cut them. Maybe the Oblivion Ring, but I'd like to preserve the mana curve I have currently.
- I have absolutely LOVED Ensnaring Bridge. It serves as a pseudo-Moat, that plays well with Humility and is easy to play around. "Holding a card --> attack --> play whatever you drew," is my favorite thing with this deck. With the cards I run, it's not hard to maintain an empty, or close to empty hand. Definitely something I recommend for those who choose not to run Moat.
- Karmic Justice is something my friend suggested in order to punish hate that looks to get rid of our combo pieces: Wasteland, Krosan Grip, Shattering Spree, etc. etc. It is a bit slow admittedly, but the fact that I'm able to hit anything they have on the board once I get it up and running is quite nice. It's been excellent against Zoo, Goblins...anything with targeted removal. However, it does suck against Extirpate and anything that asks for sacrifice effects. Merfolk also tend to laugh to not care about it as well.
Thanks for the advice, and the good luck wishes. I'll keep it in mind, cheers.
:symu::symw::symr:: Landstill
:symu::symw::symr:: Enlightened ThopterTop
:symr:: Burn
Casual
:symb:: Reanimator
:symu::symb:: Faeries
"Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."
Rmns 8:38-39
Got cards? Need cards? It never hurts to ask!
For reference:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells [35]
1 Blood Moon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
1 Future Sight
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Wrath of God
2 Academy Ruins
3 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Serenity
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Wrath of God
I like that the deck does put up results, especially considering that I played Thopter combo in Extended. Still, more traditional style CounterTop decks prove to be overall more successful. It's hard to say that they are more successful because it is a better deck though, because it can just as easily be attributed to the fact that traditional CounterTop lists are just played in much higher numbers.
If you watched game 3 of the mirror, the Thopter player punted. He left lands open for 7 or 8 turns to let his opponent draw answers even though he had CounterTop on the board and ThopterSword in hand. He could have easily won.