i am curious about the 1 blood moon in the deck, thats an interesting choice to add, I haven't noticed it in any other builds.
I'd wager it makes the land.dec match up a hell of a lot easier game 1, (dunno if that was ever a hard match up.)
certainly see good potential in mana locking up zoo though.
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If you watched game 3 of the mirror, the Thopter player punted. He left lands open for 7 or 8 turns to let his opponent draw answers even though he had CounterTop on the board and ThopterSword in hand. He could have easily won.
You wouldn't happen to have linkage to those matches were you? Or were they just live, and not recorded
The Interesting and the Curious
- MD Blood Moon: I suppose that even against Merfolk and Gobs, it turns off Wasteland//Mutavault//Rishadan Port shenanigans. Sounds like a great surprise to any deck packing non-basics...though I do find it curious he only ran two cards in the cmc3 slot.
- MD Future Sight: Um...what? Would love to hear someone explain this to me. I'm not knocking it; rather I'm fascinated by this card, and why he would this. I can see how it'd play nice with Ensnaring Bridge out, and the CounterTop combo.
- SB Serenity: This card would make a lot more sense in SB if he was a member of Team Meandeck, the same team that created that 2nd place new deck. Otherwise, I have no idea why this is here. Again, would love to hear an explanation and speculation.
- Some overall interesting choices in:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Karakas
3x Thopter Foundry
Deck looks cool. I think I would like to test Future Sight. The more I think about it, the more I like it, since it serves as a virtual Chalice of the Void, and makes Ensnaring Bridge a lot better. Not sold on the singleton Blood Moon, though I think I'll want to test that too. Looks helpful in enough matchups that I'd consider it.
[color="purple"]
You wouldn't happen to have linkage to those matches were you? Or were they just live, and not recorded
They were live on ggslive, not sure if scg saved them. It was a pretty unspectacular match. The Thopter player played Explosives to blow away his opponent's Counterbalance in addition to his own, but his opponent had enough cards to Brainstorm to dig for Grips and assemble his own CounterTop. He had waiting almost 7 or 8 turns before then with Academy Ruins and ThopterSword at his disposal.
I wanted to play with Tezz in Legacy, so I've been building this and playing around with this on Workstation.
Not sure how good it is or isn't in comparison to other countertop variants, but it has a lot going for it, and believe it or not, Tezz could potentially be better than Jace.
Like most of these lists, it looks kind of like a hodge-podge mix of cards, but just about every permanent in the deck can be tutored for, so getting the necessary cards is pretty darn easy.
As for why I like Tezz so much in here over playing a more traditional Jace list? Well, Tezz gives card advantage just as Jace, does, but unlike Jace, Tezz's -4 can go off really qiuck, and it's pretty common to be able to deal 14-20 damage to an opponent via his -4 the as early as turn 5-6. Tezz also is better at searching out thopter combo than Jace is, since he digs deeper.
Is this better? Who knows, but it's a fun take on tezz & thopter combo.
I wanted to play with Tezz in Legacy, so I've been building this and playing around with this on Workstation.
Not sure how good it is or isn't in comparison to other countertop variants, but it has a lot going for it, and believe it or not, Tezz could potentially be better than Jace.
Like most of these lists, it looks kind of like a hodge-podge mix of cards, but just about every permanent in the deck can be tutored for, so getting the necessary cards is pretty darn easy.
As for why I like Tezz so much in here over playing a more traditional Jace list? Well, Tezz gives card advantage just as Jace, does, but unlike Jace, Tezz's -4 can go off really qiuck, and it's pretty common to be able to deal 14-20 damage to an opponent via his -4 the as early as turn 5-6. Tezz also is better at searching out thopter combo than Jace is, since he digs deeper.
Is this better? Who knows, but it's a fun take on tezz & thopter combo.
I believe you forgot Tezz in your list... and i would wish you to consider adding one more Enlightened Tutor as well as another top
i also don't really know if Mox opal is worth the spot, i know you play plenty of artifacts but with this deck i feel that might sit around and do nothing most of the time.
@cbus05
Seems you`ve forgotten 3 Tezz. Probably not that important
I remain unconvinced on wheter Tezz is better that JTMS, but I higly encourage you to test him. And please give word on how Etched Champion works out. I don`t think I would work in most decks, since Metalcraft isn`t that easy to pull off without Seat of the Synod.
In addition to playing just 3 Tops (which a lot of people do, but I just can`t get behind that, especially in such an Artifact-focused deck as yours),i think your manabase looks very awkward. You have one of each basic, but I really don`t think you need the Swamp. So many non-blue sources will become fairly awkward at times, 4 "Plains" and 2 "Swamps" is just too much. I run Moat in my list (frequently taking turns where I go ET into Moat), opposed to your 7 singleW cards, but still just run 2 basic Plains. I think more fetches are in order.
While the Art-lands make Tezz better, keep in mind how much work you put into making him decent, when you could just play JTMS instead. Tezz should be tested, but that probably won`t be by me. Maindeck Bobs is a good idea though, when trying Tezz. I think you should bump it to 3, or maybe even 4.
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
@cbus05
Seems you`ve forgotten 3 Tezz. Probably not that important
I remain unconvinced on wheter Tezz is better that JTMS, but I higly encourage you to test him.
i dare say that the new tezzeret would work in this deck as well as old tezzeret for that matter.
the thopter making would get a decent amount of artifacts to make his final ability pretty good.
plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well.
making stuff into a 5/5 is a bonus. make a flying thopter a 5/5 if sword or the graveyard itself some how got compramised is a good advantage.
another interaction of interest might be if humility is in play, "i'm told" that if you use a permanent changing ability like new tezzerets after humility has been dropped it will make anything used into a 5/5 with no abilities, and advantage in a sea of 1/1s.
so the new tezzeret has qualities to go with thopter foundry for a win.
the old tezzeret being mana more than new tezzeret has similar qualities.
final ability makes a hoard of 5/5s, also a similar interaction with humility is possible as well.
he can also tutor things up as and advantage.
he can untap extra artifact mana or possible thopters to block with after an attack.
the thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill.
so they all have something good to bring to thopter foundry but Its my belief that it comes down to a case of preference at this point.
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i dare say that the new tezzeret would work in this deck as well as old tezzeret for that matter.
the thopter making would get a decent amount of artifacts to make his final ability pretty good.
plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well.
making stuff into a 5/5 is a bonus. make a flying thopter a 5/5 if sword or the graveyard itself some how got compramised is a good advantage.
another interaction of interest might be if humility is in play, "i'm told" that if you use a permanent changing ability like new tezzerets after humility has been dropped it will make anything used into a 5/5 with no abilities, and advantage in a sea of 1/1s.
so the new tezzeret has qualities to go with thopter foundry for a win.
the old tezzeret being mana more than new tezzeret has similar qualities.
final ability makes a hoard of 5/5s, also a similar interaction with humility is possible as well.
he can also tutor things up as and advantage.
he can untap extra artifact mana or possible thopters to block with after an attack.
the thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill.
so they all have something good to bring to thopter foundry but Its my belief that it comes down to a case of preference at this point.
In regards to Humility, once it's resolved, and p/t setting ability/spell/equip, etc will override the effect of the Humility. So yes, you could have a 5/5 with Humility out.
Hmm...I'm still not entirely convinced of new Tezz's awesomeness, but then again, I haven't really tested him yet. Jace2.0 is still a pretty big deal to me...but we shall see. It may be a case of having two pointy sticks, and just picking the one that's sharper. I do agree however that each of them will shore up a particular matchup, good point.
I think Tezz works here for the +1 dig and -4 Kill. If you have as little as 4 artifacts, that's already +/- 8 dmg, which is HUGE for a deck like this. The 5/5 route is really a last resort imo. If you manage to land both Tezz 2.0 and Jace 2.0....holy crap, that's stupid CA/manipulation.
Personally, I would play 3 Tops, 4 CB, 4 FoW, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 Predict as the core of the control shell. 1-2 Jace 2.0 compliment that. I have looked at Standstill and simply put, I'm not sold on it in this deck. Predict works amazing with the amount of dig you have.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think you would really have to up the artifact count to support Tezz sufficiently.
You don't want to whiff on his +1. Tezz is seeing play in new Affinity lists (which in many cases also use Thopter Foundry interestingly enough) for example, and his +1 is powerful because it is virtually guaranteed to give the deck card quality/advantage.
If you aren't using his +1 to its fullest potential you have to hope his -1 is better than Jace's -1, or his +1. Also consider that Tezz's ultimate isn't going to be winning a game in this deck without a number of Thopter tokens and if you are massing Thopters that's basically game anyways, where as Jace can win on his own.
Tezz allows the deck to go a little more aggressive with 5/5's, but in a control list it's hard to say if that's really worth loosing the ability to bounce creatures. That 5/5 is fine until your opponent's Goyfs and KotR get bigger. At that point bouncing the creature to gain tempo is going to better for you as your opponent has to keep replaying it for as long as you're Jace is alive (or you find another answer).
Tezz is certainly powerful, but I don't think this deck is artifact heavy enough to support him. That's not to say it can't steer itself in that direction. Without a list more built around him though it's probably just a worse Jace for the deck.
Personally, I would play 3 Tops, 4 CB, 4 FoW, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 Predict as the core of the control shell. 1-2 Jace 2.0 compliment that. I have looked at Standstill and simply put, I'm not sold on it in this deck. Predict works amazing with the amount of dig you have.
I never looked at jace 2.0 and predict having a strong interaction until you mentioned so.
But in this deck elightened tutoring for sword of the meek and predict dumping in the yard and drawing two cards for it is a strong move in general.
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I never looked at jace 2.0 and predict having a strong interaction until you mentioned so.
But in this deck elightened tutoring for sword of the meek and predict dumping in the yard and drawing two cards for it is a strong move in general.
This. Between all the dig + e.tutor, you will draw a bunch from predict. It also combo's with jace checking the top of libraries (yours or your opponent), to which you follow up with predict.
Your breakdown of seeing e. tutor ---> sword on top --> predict it away + draw 2 = shows the strength of predict in this deck.
Predict also corrects the unwanted situation of multiple Sensei's. You can "draw from Top" and move Sensei's to the top of the library, predict it away, and generate +2 meaningful cards.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Hello, this deck looked interesting so I figured I'd drop by. Have you guys tested Krak-Clan Ironworks? You can sac a token to it so it generates Infy mana and life with Foundry+Meek. Which then gives you Infy thopters. You could run only 2 to tutor for if foundry alone isn't doing enough.
For one thing, if infinite Thopters is the direction you want to take a deck then Ashnod's Altar does it for 1 mana less.
I think that using an infinite Thopter combo is really win-more if anything. The combo itself is already so powerful. Getting as many 1/1 fliers and life as you can afford at instant speed is absurdly good, and very few decks in Legacy can win once it is online. Given the nature of the combo to already seal games up when it goes online I think it makes sense to just leave it as is and use the space that not using Ashnod's Altar frees up for other answers/silver bullets.
I believe you forgot Tezz in your list... and i would wish you to consider adding one more Enlightened Tutor as well as another top
i also don't really know if Mox opal is worth the spot, i know you play plenty of artifacts but with this deck i feel that might sit around and do nothing most of the time.
Just my thoughts
Woops, forgot the planeswalkers :o.
As far as Etched champion goes, I just thought it would be a Nice 1-of in the deck that's searchable via enlightened tutor and can be basically an indestructible wall that's also unblockable when needed.
Being able to turn him into a 5/5 progenitus via Tezz doesn't hurt either..
As far as Mox opal, it's good acceleration with zero drawback. In this deck, it's basically alike to playing a real mox with the 8 artifact lands... It's only a 1-of for trinket mage.
Something else people aren't mentioning that's really good with this deck, is that playing an artifact heavy build allows for maindeck thirst for knowledge... which happens to be REALLY good, especially with thopter combo.
As for people saying Tezz isn't good here since there aren't as many artifacts... welll... no ☺☺☺☺ sherlock, that's why you play more artifacts (specifically artifact lands) in a tezz version.
As for people saying Tezz isn't good here since there aren't as many artifacts... welll... no ☺☺☺☺ sherlock, that's why you play more artifacts (specifically artifact lands) in a tezz version.
Perhaps, but don't forget several of us in the thread are split between this deck being a solid control deck with an artifact aggro kill, and others taking it to a level of more artifact aggro less control features.
so two camps speaking from two perspectives that might conflict.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
This is what I have been testing. I used to play 4c Countertop but my meta has a ton of affinity and merfolk and those match ups were rough. Goyf was not the win con I want against them. I figured foundry/sword would be better suited to the task. So far so good, posting 3-0 and 2-0-1 in my last two local tournaments. I am looking for any advice people can offer to help refine the deck a bit. I do not have Jace 2.0 :(. So please don't suggest it. I already know it would be a strong addition.
1- Thirst for knowledge has been really good. It gets rid of redundant tops and swords. It digs hard against the control mirror. The 3cc seems really important against cards like pernicious deed, merrow rejeerey, and knight of the reliquary.
2- I would like to support vedalken shackles but it seems too slow and does not interact with thirst well as it cuts the number of artifact lands I can support. Very hard cut.
3- I have no 4 drops for counterbalance and 22 land. There are a lot of wastelands around and I do not like getting caught by the free wins that card generates sometimes. I have considered running a few Fire/Ice to have some 4cc for counter balance but also maintain low effective casting costs.
4- 3 Thopter Foundry and 2 sword of the meek. I think it is important to have more than the minimum amount of the combo pieces. I have lost a couple of games due to not being able to close fast enough. Part of the problem with an enlightened tutor package in a slower control deck is that we are often tempted to search for something to stabilize instead of going for the win. We then draw that card, have to use it and effectively time walking ourselves. When we have a ton of tutor targets, they provide us with a lot of flexibility but can clog our hand up with the wrong answers. Thopter/sword trumps aggro decks and we run swords to plowshares. Counterbalance/top and force of will trump combo decks There does not seem to be any need to run many silver bullets in the main deck for aggro and combo. That is why I play o-ring main deck as a catch all and use my enlightened tutors to fetch missing combo pieces. If there was room to add a 4th foundry and 3 sword I probably would.
5- Vendilion Clique has been pretty good. It gives valuable info on the opponents options, tucks away redundant tops and very importantly has flash. Being able to keep my mana up then EOT the clique has been a really strong play in my testing.
6- 1 Tropical Island, as extra mode on firespout and flashback on ancient grudge. If I cut red then I would likely have to add more of these for korsan grips out of the side. Opponents often waste this before other more important lands (read tundra) for fear of goyf.
7- Firespout is important for the merfolk, elf combo, zoo, affinity and goblin matchups. A lot of these deck see an enlightened tutor and starting planing around moat and ensnaring bridge. This answers are not good enough anymore. All the aggro decks have options to circumvent these. Affinity attacks with ornithopter and modular or BB-attach cranial plating you out, zoo has burn and grim lavamancer, merfolk can level the commander and fly over moat and goblins can siege-gang. Not to mention that all these decks can goldfish on turn 3-4 before moat hits or ensnaring bridge is too limiting. Firespout is not perfect (can't tutor and not "permanent") but is perfectly on curve and devastating.
OK, that is all for now. Sorry for the long post but I need some feedback and it helps you to know where I am coming from on card choices.
Outstanding post!
I was using predict years ago on the vintage scene for the seer power of the noted comments you presented with all the digs and draws ect.
After taking in what you posted, and having flash backs of my times running Predict...I think it would at a persons loss to not main at least 3 copies asap. Outstanding logic with almost no drawback what so ever 90% of the time, and l would take those numbers to the bank anytime.
Again Warden, solid post.
S.M.
This. Between all the dig + e.tutor, you will draw a bunch from predict. It also combo's with jace checking the top of libraries (yours or your opponent), to which you follow up with predict.
Your breakdown of seeing e. tutor ---> sword on top --> predict it away + draw 2 = shows the strength of predict in this deck.
Predict also corrects the unwanted situation of multiple Sensei's. You can "draw from Top" and move Sensei's to the top of the library, predict it away, and generate +2 meaningful cards.
i dare say that the new tezzeret would work in this deck as well as old tezzeret for that matter.
the thopter making would get a decent amount of artifacts to make his final ability pretty good.
plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well.
making stuff into a 5/5 is a bonus. make a flying thopter a 5/5 if sword or the graveyard itself some how got compramised is a good advantage.
another interaction of interest might be if humility is in play, "i'm told" that if you use a permanent changing ability like new tezzerets after humility has been dropped it will make anything used into a 5/5 with no abilities, and advantage in a sea of 1/1s.
so the new tezzeret has qualities to go with thopter foundry for a win.
the old tezzeret being mana more than new tezzeret has similar qualities.
final ability makes a hoard of 5/5s, also a similar interaction with humility is possible as well.
he can also tutor things up as and advantage.
he can untap extra artifact mana or possible thopters to block with after an attack.
the thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill.
so they all have something good to bring to thopter foundry but Its my belief that it comes down to a case of preference at this point.
It seems you have some miscomprehensions, which leads me to believe that you haven`t actually tried any of the Tezzerets. A lot of what you describe is typical win-more. If you have Sword+Foundry going on relatively undisrupted, you`re winning, no questions asked. You don`t need to turn your Thopters into 5/5s if you have 10 of them. Unless you`re sacrificing tapped Tops or just random artifacts, it`s completely irrelevant how Humility interacts with stuff. You got a million tokens, be happy. If I for some reason want to use 4 of my mana on something else than Thopters when I have Sword/Foundry going, it has to be because I need to bounce an Emrakul, or maybe because I want a free Brainstorm every turn from here on and out. Or just because I can, because it really doesn`t matter. I have Thopter-Sword going, I`m winning.
Yes, there are exceptions, and they aren`t all theoretical. The big one would probably be Merfolk + Lord of Atlantis, Anything + Sword of Fire and Ice and many combo-decks. It`s difficult to race those (believe me, new Tezz would in most cases be too slow with his Ultimate, remember that you skip making 4 Thopters one turn), and even though old Tezz could theoretically dig up some Silver bullets, the main thing you need is dig. All of the PWs provide that. And anyways, we shouldn`t be discussing what PWs are good when you`re winning, but which save your ass when you need to get back into the game.
"plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well"
Not unless you shape your deck around him. JTMS doesn`t need 4x Seat of the Synod, he just Brainstorms every turn no matter how your deck looks.
"he thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill."
Completely false. Old Tezzeret is not good against Aggro, and the fact that he costs 5 instead of 4 isn`t really helping. On the other hand, if you`re Zoo opponent is sitting there with 3 open mana with a Goyf on the board, screaming out Krosan Grip, and you go Jace - Bounce Goyf the game is practically over unless he has burn (assuming you have no FoW). Free Brainstorms (which should be the mode you choose 80% of the time) is simply ridoncolous, and if your opponent is playing Kird Apes, Counterbalance or Show and Tell isn`t all too important when you finally land him.
And how exactly is new Tezz performing better against Zoo than JTMS? Sure, you can make a Top a 5/5, but that`s vulnerable to StP, and really vulnerable to Krosan Grip. He doesn`t auto-die to Bolt the same way JTMS does when he uses his CA-abilety, but I will personally almost never +0 Jace if I have board-control against Zoo. One turn of taking a sneak-peek at my opponent`s next card is worth Free Brainstorm. Coughing up free Seat of the Synod sure is CA, but not really Card-quality.
I`m not saying either Tezzeret are do-nothings that just eat up 4/5 mana and then sit there. I`m saying JTMS already does a lot of what these guys do and then some. Free Brainstorms are so ridiculous, consider what you`re removing and not just what you`re adding.
@KIN CORN KARN
Please share list. If you are to include Tezz 2.0, maintaining JTMS seems like a good idea. That means a lot of 4-drops (5 + Moat/Humility), but than can be worked around with Moxes.
This is what I have been testing. I used to play 4c Countertop but my meta has a ton of affinity and merfolk and those match ups were rough. Goyf was not the win con I want against them. I figured foundry/sword would be better suited to the task. So far so good, posting 3-0 and 2-0-1 in my last two local tournaments. I am looking for any advice people can offer to help refine the deck a bit. I do not have Jace 2.0 :(. So please don't suggest it. I already know it would be a strong addition.
1- Thirst for knowledge has been really good. It gets rid of redundant tops and swords. It digs hard against the control mirror. The 3cc seems really important against cards like pernicious deed, merrow rejeerey, and knight of the reliquary.
2- I would like to support vedalken shackles but it seems too slow and does not interact with thirst well as it cuts the number of artifact lands I can support. Very hard cut.
3- I have no 4 drops for counterbalance and 22 land. There are a lot of wastelands around and I do not like getting caught by the free wins that card generates sometimes. I have considered running a few Fire/Ice to have some 4cc for counter balance but also maintain low effective casting costs.
4- 3 Thopter Foundry and 2 sword of the meek. I think it is important to have more than the minimum amount of the combo pieces. I have lost a couple of games due to not being able to close fast enough. Part of the problem with an enlightened tutor package in a slower control deck is that we are often tempted to search for something to stabilize instead of going for the win. We then draw that card, have to use it and effectively time walking ourselves. When we have a ton of tutor targets, they provide us with a lot of flexibility but can clog our hand up with the wrong answers. Thopter/sword trumps aggro decks and we run swords to plowshares. Counterbalance/top and force of will trump combo decks There does not seem to be any need to run many silver bullets in the main deck for aggro and combo. That is why I play o-ring main deck as a catch all and use my enlightened tutors to fetch missing combo pieces. If there was room to add a 4th foundry and 3 sword I probably would.
5- Vendilion Clique has been pretty good. It gives valuable info on the opponents options, tucks away redundant tops and very importantly has flash. Being able to keep my mana up then EOT the clique has been a really strong play in my testing.
6- 1 Tropical Island, as extra mode on firespout and flashback on ancient grudge. If I cut red then I would likely have to add more of these for korsan grips out of the side. Opponents often waste this before other more important lands (read tundra) for fear of goyf.
7- Firespout is important for the merfolk, elf combo, zoo, affinity and goblin matchups. A lot of these deck see an enlightened tutor and starting planing around moat and ensnaring bridge. This answers are not good enough anymore. All the aggro decks have options to circumvent these. Affinity attacks with ornithopter and modular or BB-attach cranial plating you out, zoo has burn and grim lavamancer, merfolk can level the commander and fly over moat and goblins can siege-gang. Not to mention that all these decks can goldfish on turn 3-4 before moat hits or ensnaring bridge is too limiting. Firespout is not perfect (can't tutor and not "permanent") but is perfectly on curve and devastating.
OK, that is all for now. Sorry for the long post but I need some feedback and it helps you to know where I am coming from on card choices.
Thanks!
1. I can definitely see how Thirst is good, and would easily include it if I played a more artifact-heavy build. However, I don`t think that playing a fairly normal version with 4x Seat is the way to go, if you`re just looking to power up Thirst. If you`re looking for CA, Predict also gives +1 while giving the same amount of dig.
2. I`ve tried Shackles, and I really didn`t like it. I can support it, so I`m curious why you liked it so much? I can see it being good against SoFi, maybe I should reconsider it...
4.This is where I start to really disagree. Sword without Foundry is dead. If your Foundry gets Needled or Gripped or what-have-you, you`re sitting with Bob-versus-Bob-Tech* and nothing else.
"When we have a ton of tutor targets, they provide us with a lot of flexibility but can clog our hand up with the wrong answers"
We don`t have a ton of Tutor-targets, I personally run 5, +3 which there are 2 of. And I`m running more than most. Sure,it`s a little awkward to go turn 1 Relic of Progenitus against GW Death and Taxes, but it will cycle away for 1 and shrink a Goyf a little. Needle is all-around a really flexible card (as long as your using it right, I see so much bad play with Needle), and carrying it`s weight in almost every MU.
Foundry doesn`t answer Nacatl, Ape and `Goyf without Sword. Foundry doesn`t answer Lord of Atlantis and 2 other `Folks at all. Foundry doesn`t scare anyone if they`re holding Extirpate. SoFi laughs at Foundry.
If you`re just trying to go combo, why aren`t you using Grindstone and Painter`s Servant?
*Been there, done that
5.Are you having a problem with Clique being the only creature in your deck? Doesn`t it get auto-Plowed most of the time?
7. This is also a point where I really disagree. Of-course you don`t auto-win when you play Moat, Ensnaring Bridge or Humility. Life isn`t that easy. The answers you list have always been around. I agree that Firespout is good against Aggro, but since you can`t tutor for it, you need a lot more than 1 to reliably draw it. I don`t play it, because I want to play Back to Basics in my SB, but it`s certainly a reasonable card if you`re playing with enough R sources.
Suggestions/questions
Manabase: Consider adding Karakas and/or Academy Ruins. While you can tutor up more Foundries, it`s a lot easier to just reccur the one that already got destroyed. Karakas is there for your Cliques, since you apparently don`t care a lot about non-basics.
I struggle to see why you even play ET in your deck. You already play an unusually high amount of Foundries/Swords, and next to no tutor-targets. Wouldn`t just playing 3 Ponders be better?
If you choose to keep ET however, I`d suggest adding Engineered Explosives. That card will solve so many questions, be it Nacatl, Nacatl + Ape, Counterbalance, Empty the Warrens and even JTMS. If you include this, you should also include Academy Ruins.
What`s with the 4 Ancient Grudges? Do you really hate Affinity? If so, you should consider Serenity. It sure is awkward with 4 Seats, but it`s completely backbreaking and only requires 1 slot.
Venser is...Interesting. Where do you board him in? Would Spell Pierce be a better card in those MUs?
You run very little `Yard-hate, and no Ruins to reccur Crypt. Isn`t Dredge a crappy MU?
@S.M.
Uhmm...What? I understand you have fond memories of drawing 2 cards at instant speed for 2 mana, but you seem to have no experience playing this card in Legacy, let alone ThopterSword. The way you praise Warden seem to almost be sarcasm, but what do I know...
Predict is a potential card for almost every list, we can all agree on that. But calling it an auto 3-of with no grounds other than your own experience with a different deck from a different format makes you just seem unserious, at least in my eyes
I`ve tried Predict, and I found it a little slow. I may try it again, but I`d rather use Bob, Jace and Crucible to get my cards for the moment.
Anyone boarding in Ensnaring Bridge against Zoo? If so, how is it performing?
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
I was wondering what people's thoughts are on playing U/B Thopter Combo with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Jace, the Mind Sculptor? I understand how white plays an important element in pulling off the combo or for finding other answers with Enlightened Tutor. Yet, I was looking to play with a more stable and consistent mana base, and to have the flexibility to run more control and permission as opposed to trying to combo off early. I was hoping to get some feedback in comparing U/Bw to just U/B with PWs.
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It seems you have some miscomprehensions, which leads me to believe that you haven`t actually tried any of the Tezzerets. A lot of what you describe is typical win-more. If you have Sword+Foundry going on relatively undisrupted, you`re winning, no questions asked. You don`t need to turn your Thopters into 5/5s if you have 10 of them. Unless you`re sacrificing tapped Tops or just random artifacts, it`s completely irrelevant how Humility interacts with stuff. You got a million tokens, be happy. If I for some reason want to use 4 of my mana on something else than Thopters when I have Sword/Foundry going, it has to be because I need to bounce an Emrakul, or maybe because I want a free Brainstorm every turn from here on and out. Or just because I can, because it really doesn`t matter. I have Thopter-Sword going, I`m winning.
"plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well"
Not unless you shape your deck around him. JTMS doesn`t need 4x Seat of the Synod, he just Brainstorms every turn no matter how your deck looks.
"he thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill."
Completely false. Old Tezzeret is not good against Aggro, and the fact that he costs 5 instead of 4 isn`t really helping.
I think Your missing something here, and after reviewing my original post you quoted I see where one could be mistaken by what I said and miss what I really wanted to say.
What I was trying to say Is the tezzerets support thopter foundry in an approach of winning with aggro.
I did not mean for it to sound like they support the aggro match up.
Its a case of the tezzerets giving you more to attack with.
when I said control and mention jace, I'm simply saying he is offering control elements to the deck.
I think you miss interpret that as i'm saying he is better support for fighting control.
You saying there isn't enough artifacts for the new tezz to dig up maybe true! But I'm see plenty of potential as anyone who puts new tezz into thopter foundry or any deck for that matter is going to adjust the build to see some benefit there.
most thopter decks listed contain artifacts best searched for by old tezz, aka the "silver bullets" as you put it.
turning extra artifacts into 5/5s can be of use,
the situation i stated of making a thopter a 5/5, of course isn't of any use if if you got the combo working.
however when I vaguely said a sea of 1/1s is another area where one might get wrong ideas of what I wanted to say.
if your deadlocked with your opponent and humility is out and sword/foundry isn't online then turning extra artifacts into 5/5s to block and attack wouldn't be a bad application of either tezzeret.
I'm simply commenting on some benefits tezzeret could do for this deck. I didn't mean for it to sound as I was saying tezz was better than jace, or vise versa.
But I think you got miss guided by some open endedness of my presentation of the commentary.
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I really like predict but the 3cc spot on my curve sparse with out thirst. I will test the perdict and see if its strength will make up for the amount of 3cc that might slip through.
Vendilion clique does not get plowed that often. My meta is 15% merfolk and 30% affinity. Not to many swords around. This also the primary reason i am in red, firespout, ancient grudge amd REB. This slot switches between trinket mage and clique depending on my maindeck. I like clique better.
Pithing needle was really solid for me last week I will find room.
There are no dredge decks at this events usually so the lack of graveyard hate never comes up.
I understand that ET without a full silver bullet package is unusal but I truly believe that assembling either combo is enough to win most matchups. I just really want to avoid getting too cute.
That being said I will shave 1 foundry and 1 sword of the meek for +1 pithing needle and +1 Engineered explosives. If an academy can be fit, I will do that too.
I will post a tournament report for this weeks' legacy event probably on Thursday.
That sucks though...
It would have been great to see the deck go to the finals.
I'd wager it makes the land.dec match up a hell of a lot easier game 1, (dunno if that was ever a hard match up.)
certainly see good potential in mana locking up zoo though.
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You wouldn't happen to have linkage to those matches were you? Or were they just live, and not recorded
The Interesting and the Curious
- MD Blood Moon: I suppose that even against Merfolk and Gobs, it turns off Wasteland//Mutavault//Rishadan Port shenanigans. Sounds like a great surprise to any deck packing non-basics...though I do find it curious he only ran two cards in the cmc3 slot.
- MD Future Sight: Um...what? Would love to hear someone explain this to me. I'm not knocking it; rather I'm fascinated by this card, and why he would this. I can see how it'd play nice with Ensnaring Bridge out, and the CounterTop combo.
- SB Serenity: This card would make a lot more sense in SB if he was a member of Team Meandeck, the same team that created that 2nd place new deck. Otherwise, I have no idea why this is here. Again, would love to hear an explanation and speculation.
- Some overall interesting choices in:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Karakas
3x Thopter Foundry
Deck looks cool. I think I would like to test Future Sight. The more I think about it, the more I like it, since it serves as a virtual Chalice of the Void, and makes Ensnaring Bridge a lot better. Not sold on the singleton Blood Moon, though I think I'll want to test that too. Looks helpful in enough matchups that I'd consider it.
:symu::symw::symr:: Landstill
:symu::symw::symr:: Enlightened ThopterTop
:symr:: Burn
Casual
:symb:: Reanimator
:symu::symb:: Faeries
"Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."
Rmns 8:38-39
Got cards? Need cards? It never hurts to ask!
They were live on ggslive, not sure if scg saved them. It was a pretty unspectacular match. The Thopter player played Explosives to blow away his opponent's Counterbalance in addition to his own, but his opponent had enough cards to Brainstorm to dig for Grips and assemble his own CounterTop. He had waiting almost 7 or 8 turns before then with Academy Ruins and ThopterSword at his disposal.
Not sure how good it is or isn't in comparison to other countertop variants, but it has a lot going for it, and believe it or not, Tezz could potentially be better than Jace.
2x Trinket Mage
2x Dark Confidant
1x Etched Champion
Artifacts
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Mox Opal
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Thirst for Knowledge
Planeswalkers
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Enchantments
3x Counterbalance
Lands
1x Tolaria West
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Vault of Whispers
3x Ancient Den
1x Academy Ruins
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Marsh Flats
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Island
1x swamp
Like most of these lists, it looks kind of like a hodge-podge mix of cards, but just about every permanent in the deck can be tutored for, so getting the necessary cards is pretty darn easy.
As for why I like Tezz so much in here over playing a more traditional Jace list? Well, Tezz gives card advantage just as Jace, does, but unlike Jace, Tezz's -4 can go off really qiuck, and it's pretty common to be able to deal 14-20 damage to an opponent via his -4 the as early as turn 5-6. Tezz also is better at searching out thopter combo than Jace is, since he digs deeper.
Is this better? Who knows, but it's a fun take on tezz & thopter combo.
I believe you forgot Tezz in your list... and i would wish you to consider adding one more Enlightened Tutor as well as another top
i also don't really know if Mox opal is worth the spot, i know you play plenty of artifacts but with this deck i feel that might sit around and do nothing most of the time.
Just my thoughts
Seems you`ve forgotten 3 Tezz. Probably not that important
I remain unconvinced on wheter Tezz is better that JTMS, but I higly encourage you to test him. And please give word on how Etched Champion works out. I don`t think I would work in most decks, since Metalcraft isn`t that easy to pull off without Seat of the Synod.
In addition to playing just 3 Tops (which a lot of people do, but I just can`t get behind that, especially in such an Artifact-focused deck as yours),i think your manabase looks very awkward. You have one of each basic, but I really don`t think you need the Swamp. So many non-blue sources will become fairly awkward at times, 4 "Plains" and 2 "Swamps" is just too much. I run Moat in my list (frequently taking turns where I go ET into Moat), opposed to your 7 singleW cards, but still just run 2 basic Plains. I think more fetches are in order.
While the Art-lands make Tezz better, keep in mind how much work you put into making him decent, when you could just play JTMS instead. Tezz should be tested, but that probably won`t be by me. Maindeck Bobs is a good idea though, when trying Tezz. I think you should bump it to 3, or maybe even 4.
@alnastas
I`m actually back to playing 3 ETs now
Figured I could throw in my current list, since it changes quite frequently and it`s a while since I put it up
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
1x Academy Ruins
1x Wasteland
5x Island
2x Plains
Sorceries (4)
4x Ponder
Instants (15)
4x Brainstorm
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei´s Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
Enchantments (6)
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tormod´s Crypt
2x Spell Pierce
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Dark Confidant
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Serenity
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Back to Basics
2x Engineered Plague
Got any questions/suggestions? Feel free
i dare say that the new tezzeret would work in this deck as well as old tezzeret for that matter.
the thopter making would get a decent amount of artifacts to make his final ability pretty good.
plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well.
making stuff into a 5/5 is a bonus. make a flying thopter a 5/5 if sword or the graveyard itself some how got compramised is a good advantage.
another interaction of interest might be if humility is in play, "i'm told" that if you use a permanent changing ability like new tezzerets after humility has been dropped it will make anything used into a 5/5 with no abilities, and advantage in a sea of 1/1s.
so the new tezzeret has qualities to go with thopter foundry for a win.
the old tezzeret being mana more than new tezzeret has similar qualities.
final ability makes a hoard of 5/5s, also a similar interaction with humility is possible as well.
he can also tutor things up as and advantage.
he can untap extra artifact mana or possible thopters to block with after an attack.
the thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill.
so they all have something good to bring to thopter foundry but Its my belief that it comes down to a case of preference at this point.
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In regards to Humility, once it's resolved, and p/t setting ability/spell/equip, etc will override the effect of the Humility. So yes, you could have a 5/5 with Humility out.
Hmm...I'm still not entirely convinced of new Tezz's awesomeness, but then again, I haven't really tested him yet. Jace2.0 is still a pretty big deal to me...but we shall see. It may be a case of having two pointy sticks, and just picking the one that's sharper. I do agree however that each of them will shore up a particular matchup, good point.
:symu::symw::symr:: Landstill
:symu::symw::symr:: Enlightened ThopterTop
:symr:: Burn
Casual
:symb:: Reanimator
:symu::symb:: Faeries
"Control"(tr.v.): To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."
Rmns 8:38-39
Got cards? Need cards? It never hurts to ask!
Personally, I would play 3 Tops, 4 CB, 4 FoW, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 Predict as the core of the control shell. 1-2 Jace 2.0 compliment that. I have looked at Standstill and simply put, I'm not sold on it in this deck. Predict works amazing with the amount of dig you have.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
You don't want to whiff on his +1. Tezz is seeing play in new Affinity lists (which in many cases also use Thopter Foundry interestingly enough) for example, and his +1 is powerful because it is virtually guaranteed to give the deck card quality/advantage.
If you aren't using his +1 to its fullest potential you have to hope his -1 is better than Jace's -1, or his +1. Also consider that Tezz's ultimate isn't going to be winning a game in this deck without a number of Thopter tokens and if you are massing Thopters that's basically game anyways, where as Jace can win on his own.
Tezz allows the deck to go a little more aggressive with 5/5's, but in a control list it's hard to say if that's really worth loosing the ability to bounce creatures. That 5/5 is fine until your opponent's Goyfs and KotR get bigger. At that point bouncing the creature to gain tempo is going to better for you as your opponent has to keep replaying it for as long as you're Jace is alive (or you find another answer).
Tezz is certainly powerful, but I don't think this deck is artifact heavy enough to support him. That's not to say it can't steer itself in that direction. Without a list more built around him though it's probably just a worse Jace for the deck.
I never looked at jace 2.0 and predict having a strong interaction until you mentioned so.
But in this deck elightened tutoring for sword of the meek and predict dumping in the yard and drawing two cards for it is a strong move in general.
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This. Between all the dig + e.tutor, you will draw a bunch from predict. It also combo's with jace checking the top of libraries (yours or your opponent), to which you follow up with predict.
Your breakdown of seeing e. tutor ---> sword on top --> predict it away + draw 2 = shows the strength of predict in this deck.
Predict also corrects the unwanted situation of multiple Sensei's. You can "draw from Top" and move Sensei's to the top of the library, predict it away, and generate +2 meaningful cards.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I think that using an infinite Thopter combo is really win-more if anything. The combo itself is already so powerful. Getting as many 1/1 fliers and life as you can afford at instant speed is absurdly good, and very few decks in Legacy can win once it is online. Given the nature of the combo to already seal games up when it goes online I think it makes sense to just leave it as is and use the space that not using Ashnod's Altar frees up for other answers/silver bullets.
Woops, forgot the planeswalkers :o.
As far as Etched champion goes, I just thought it would be a Nice 1-of in the deck that's searchable via enlightened tutor and can be basically an indestructible wall that's also unblockable when needed.
Being able to turn him into a 5/5 progenitus via Tezz doesn't hurt either..
As far as Mox opal, it's good acceleration with zero drawback. In this deck, it's basically alike to playing a real mox with the 8 artifact lands... It's only a 1-of for trinket mage.
Something else people aren't mentioning that's really good with this deck, is that playing an artifact heavy build allows for maindeck thirst for knowledge... which happens to be REALLY good, especially with thopter combo.
As for people saying Tezz isn't good here since there aren't as many artifacts... welll... no ☺☺☺☺ sherlock, that's why you play more artifacts (specifically artifact lands) in a tezz version.
Perhaps, but don't forget several of us in the thread are split between this deck being a solid control deck with an artifact aggro kill, and others taking it to a level of more artifact aggro less control features.
so two camps speaking from two perspectives that might conflict.
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currently playing:
LEGACY
loam/depthsBG
Sneak showUR
LED DredgeUBR
ReanimatorUB
landsBURG
EDH
DoranWBG
JhoiraUR
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Counter Spell
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Seat of Synod
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hibernation
1 Firespout
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
A few comments on card choices.
1- Thirst for knowledge has been really good. It gets rid of redundant tops and swords. It digs hard against the control mirror. The 3cc seems really important against cards like pernicious deed, merrow rejeerey, and knight of the reliquary.
2- I would like to support vedalken shackles but it seems too slow and does not interact with thirst well as it cuts the number of artifact lands I can support. Very hard cut.
3- I have no 4 drops for counterbalance and 22 land. There are a lot of wastelands around and I do not like getting caught by the free wins that card generates sometimes. I have considered running a few Fire/Ice to have some 4cc for counter balance but also maintain low effective casting costs.
4- 3 Thopter Foundry and 2 sword of the meek. I think it is important to have more than the minimum amount of the combo pieces. I have lost a couple of games due to not being able to close fast enough. Part of the problem with an enlightened tutor package in a slower control deck is that we are often tempted to search for something to stabilize instead of going for the win. We then draw that card, have to use it and effectively time walking ourselves. When we have a ton of tutor targets, they provide us with a lot of flexibility but can clog our hand up with the wrong answers. Thopter/sword trumps aggro decks and we run swords to plowshares. Counterbalance/top and force of will trump combo decks There does not seem to be any need to run many silver bullets in the main deck for aggro and combo. That is why I play o-ring main deck as a catch all and use my enlightened tutors to fetch missing combo pieces. If there was room to add a 4th foundry and 3 sword I probably would.
5- Vendilion Clique has been pretty good. It gives valuable info on the opponents options, tucks away redundant tops and very importantly has flash. Being able to keep my mana up then EOT the clique has been a really strong play in my testing.
6- 1 Tropical Island, as extra mode on firespout and flashback on ancient grudge. If I cut red then I would likely have to add more of these for korsan grips out of the side. Opponents often waste this before other more important lands (read tundra) for fear of goyf.
7- Firespout is important for the merfolk, elf combo, zoo, affinity and goblin matchups. A lot of these deck see an enlightened tutor and starting planing around moat and ensnaring bridge. This answers are not good enough anymore. All the aggro decks have options to circumvent these. Affinity attacks with ornithopter and modular or BB-attach cranial plating you out, zoo has burn and grim lavamancer, merfolk can level the commander and fly over moat and goblins can siege-gang. Not to mention that all these decks can goldfish on turn 3-4 before moat hits or ensnaring bridge is too limiting. Firespout is not perfect (can't tutor and not "permanent") but is perfectly on curve and devastating.
OK, that is all for now. Sorry for the long post but I need some feedback and it helps you to know where I am coming from on card choices.
Thanks!
I was using predict years ago on the vintage scene for the seer power of the noted comments you presented with all the digs and draws ect.
After taking in what you posted, and having flash backs of my times running Predict...I think it would at a persons loss to not main at least 3 copies asap. Outstanding logic with almost no drawback what so ever 90% of the time, and l would take those numbers to the bank anytime.
Again Warden, solid post.
S.M.
It seems you have some miscomprehensions, which leads me to believe that you haven`t actually tried any of the Tezzerets. A lot of what you describe is typical win-more. If you have Sword+Foundry going on relatively undisrupted, you`re winning, no questions asked. You don`t need to turn your Thopters into 5/5s if you have 10 of them. Unless you`re sacrificing tapped Tops or just random artifacts, it`s completely irrelevant how Humility interacts with stuff. You got a million tokens, be happy. If I for some reason want to use 4 of my mana on something else than Thopters when I have Sword/Foundry going, it has to be because I need to bounce an Emrakul, or maybe because I want a free Brainstorm every turn from here on and out. Or just because I can, because it really doesn`t matter. I have Thopter-Sword going, I`m winning.
Yes, there are exceptions, and they aren`t all theoretical. The big one would probably be Merfolk + Lord of Atlantis, Anything + Sword of Fire and Ice and many combo-decks. It`s difficult to race those (believe me, new Tezz would in most cases be too slow with his Ultimate, remember that you skip making 4 Thopters one turn), and even though old Tezz could theoretically dig up some Silver bullets, the main thing you need is dig. All of the PWs provide that. And anyways, we shouldn`t be discussing what PWs are good when you`re winning, but which save your ass when you need to get back into the game.
"plenty of artifacts for his first ability to fetch up as well"
Not unless you shape your deck around him. JTMS doesn`t need 4x Seat of the Synod, he just Brainstorms every turn no matter how your deck looks.
"he thing with both tezzerets v. jace mind sculptor is there offering advantages to aggro. jace the mind sculptor on the other hand is offering control support and an other type of alternative kill."
Completely false. Old Tezzeret is not good against Aggro, and the fact that he costs 5 instead of 4 isn`t really helping. On the other hand, if you`re Zoo opponent is sitting there with 3 open mana with a Goyf on the board, screaming out Krosan Grip, and you go Jace - Bounce Goyf the game is practically over unless he has burn (assuming you have no FoW). Free Brainstorms (which should be the mode you choose 80% of the time) is simply ridoncolous, and if your opponent is playing Kird Apes, Counterbalance or Show and Tell isn`t all too important when you finally land him.
And how exactly is new Tezz performing better against Zoo than JTMS? Sure, you can make a Top a 5/5, but that`s vulnerable to StP, and really vulnerable to Krosan Grip. He doesn`t auto-die to Bolt the same way JTMS does when he uses his CA-abilety, but I will personally almost never +0 Jace if I have board-control against Zoo. One turn of taking a sneak-peek at my opponent`s next card is worth Free Brainstorm. Coughing up free Seat of the Synod sure is CA, but not really Card-quality.
I`m not saying either Tezzeret are do-nothings that just eat up 4/5 mana and then sit there. I`m saying JTMS already does a lot of what these guys do and then some. Free Brainstorms are so ridiculous, consider what you`re removing and not just what you`re adding.
@KIN CORN KARN
Please share list. If you are to include Tezz 2.0, maintaining JTMS seems like a good idea. That means a lot of 4-drops (5 + Moat/Humility), but than can be worked around with Moxes.
@Moil
1. I can definitely see how Thirst is good, and would easily include it if I played a more artifact-heavy build. However, I don`t think that playing a fairly normal version with 4x Seat is the way to go, if you`re just looking to power up Thirst. If you`re looking for CA, Predict also gives +1 while giving the same amount of dig.
2. I`ve tried Shackles, and I really didn`t like it. I can support it, so I`m curious why you liked it so much? I can see it being good against SoFi, maybe I should reconsider it...
4.This is where I start to really disagree. Sword without Foundry is dead. If your Foundry gets Needled or Gripped or what-have-you, you`re sitting with Bob-versus-Bob-Tech* and nothing else.
"When we have a ton of tutor targets, they provide us with a lot of flexibility but can clog our hand up with the wrong answers"
We don`t have a ton of Tutor-targets, I personally run 5, +3 which there are 2 of. And I`m running more than most. Sure,it`s a little awkward to go turn 1 Relic of Progenitus against GW Death and Taxes, but it will cycle away for 1 and shrink a Goyf a little. Needle is all-around a really flexible card (as long as your using it right, I see so much bad play with Needle), and carrying it`s weight in almost every MU.
Foundry doesn`t answer Nacatl, Ape and `Goyf without Sword. Foundry doesn`t answer Lord of Atlantis and 2 other `Folks at all. Foundry doesn`t scare anyone if they`re holding Extirpate. SoFi laughs at Foundry.
If you`re just trying to go combo, why aren`t you using Grindstone and Painter`s Servant?
*Been there, done that
5.Are you having a problem with Clique being the only creature in your deck? Doesn`t it get auto-Plowed most of the time?
7. This is also a point where I really disagree. Of-course you don`t auto-win when you play Moat, Ensnaring Bridge or Humility. Life isn`t that easy. The answers you list have always been around. I agree that Firespout is good against Aggro, but since you can`t tutor for it, you need a lot more than 1 to reliably draw it. I don`t play it, because I want to play Back to Basics in my SB, but it`s certainly a reasonable card if you`re playing with enough R sources.
Suggestions/questions
Manabase: Consider adding Karakas and/or Academy Ruins. While you can tutor up more Foundries, it`s a lot easier to just reccur the one that already got destroyed. Karakas is there for your Cliques, since you apparently don`t care a lot about non-basics.
I struggle to see why you even play ET in your deck. You already play an unusually high amount of Foundries/Swords, and next to no tutor-targets. Wouldn`t just playing 3 Ponders be better?
If you choose to keep ET however, I`d suggest adding Engineered Explosives. That card will solve so many questions, be it Nacatl, Nacatl + Ape, Counterbalance, Empty the Warrens and even JTMS. If you include this, you should also include Academy Ruins.
What`s with the 4 Ancient Grudges? Do you really hate Affinity? If so, you should consider Serenity. It sure is awkward with 4 Seats, but it`s completely backbreaking and only requires 1 slot.
Venser is...Interesting. Where do you board him in? Would Spell Pierce be a better card in those MUs?
You run very little `Yard-hate, and no Ruins to reccur Crypt. Isn`t Dredge a crappy MU?
@S.M.
Uhmm...What? I understand you have fond memories of drawing 2 cards at instant speed for 2 mana, but you seem to have no experience playing this card in Legacy, let alone ThopterSword. The way you praise Warden seem to almost be sarcasm, but what do I know...
Predict is a potential card for almost every list, we can all agree on that. But calling it an auto 3-of with no grounds other than your own experience with a different deck from a different format makes you just seem unserious, at least in my eyes
I`ve tried Predict, and I found it a little slow. I may try it again, but I`d rather use Bob, Jace and Crucible to get my cards for the moment.
Anyone boarding in Ensnaring Bridge against Zoo? If so, how is it performing?
I think Your missing something here, and after reviewing my original post you quoted I see where one could be mistaken by what I said and miss what I really wanted to say.
What I was trying to say Is the tezzerets support thopter foundry in an approach of winning with aggro.
I did not mean for it to sound like they support the aggro match up.
Its a case of the tezzerets giving you more to attack with.
when I said control and mention jace, I'm simply saying he is offering control elements to the deck.
I think you miss interpret that as i'm saying he is better support for fighting control.
You saying there isn't enough artifacts for the new tezz to dig up maybe true! But I'm see plenty of potential as anyone who puts new tezz into thopter foundry or any deck for that matter is going to adjust the build to see some benefit there.
most thopter decks listed contain artifacts best searched for by old tezz, aka the "silver bullets" as you put it.
turning extra artifacts into 5/5s can be of use,
the situation i stated of making a thopter a 5/5, of course isn't of any use if if you got the combo working.
however when I vaguely said a sea of 1/1s is another area where one might get wrong ideas of what I wanted to say.
if your deadlocked with your opponent and humility is out and sword/foundry isn't online then turning extra artifacts into 5/5s to block and attack wouldn't be a bad application of either tezzeret.
I'm simply commenting on some benefits tezzeret could do for this deck. I didn't mean for it to sound as I was saying tezz was better than jace, or vise versa.
But I think you got miss guided by some open endedness of my presentation of the commentary.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
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Thanks for the suggustions!
I really like predict but the 3cc spot on my curve sparse with out thirst. I will test the perdict and see if its strength will make up for the amount of 3cc that might slip through.
Vendilion clique does not get plowed that often. My meta is 15% merfolk and 30% affinity. Not to many swords around. This also the primary reason i am in red, firespout, ancient grudge amd REB. This slot switches between trinket mage and clique depending on my maindeck. I like clique better.
Pithing needle was really solid for me last week I will find room.
There are no dredge decks at this events usually so the lack of graveyard hate never comes up.
I understand that ET without a full silver bullet package is unusal but I truly believe that assembling either combo is enough to win most matchups. I just really want to avoid getting too cute.
That being said I will shave 1 foundry and 1 sword of the meek for +1 pithing needle and +1 Engineered explosives. If an academy can be fit, I will do that too.
I will post a tournament report for this weeks' legacy event probably on Thursday.