I placed thirteenth at the scg open in orlando with mono blue. Record was 5-2. Wins against Thresh, Zoo (twice) Drege and 2 land belcher. Lost to reanimater and eva green. The reanimater match came down to me drawing an island to steal iona with shackles both games and lock my opponent out which never happened. Eva green was rougher since my opponent was able to deplete my hand enough to keep me from locking the board. The match vs eva was brodcasted via ggslive so you can see the video if you wish. The list is on the starcitygames web site for anyone wanting a reference.
Cool list Ceclia, thats tons of artifact sweep. I'm guessing its just better than Stp because of versatility, which I can agree with, considering how Legacy has developed recently.
Spellsyphon, could you do us a favor and post the decklist so we can all talk about it? I'm pretty excited, since MUC is my favorite deck of all time, and by the way CONGRATULATIONS on the finish!
Thats what i placed 13th with at scg orlando open legacy. Record was 5-2 only loses being reanimator and eva green. Jace was in the board for those exact matches bit sadly i never saw them. Wins were against thresh, 2x zoo, dredge and 2 land belcher.
Thats what i placed 13th with at scg orlando open legacy. Record was 5-2 only loses being reanimator and eva green. Jace was in the board for those exact matches bit sadly i never saw them. Wins were against thresh, 2x zoo, dredge and 2 land belcher.
Looks like a pretty standard list. Although, your list seems like it could beat eva green but yeah sometimes Eva green can just go crazy by disrupting you straight out of the early game. Choke can also be an auto-win for them as well.
However, it's definitely good to see MUC get some playing time especially at the 5ks. I always think that MUC is quite playable in legacy no matter how advance the format becomes. Besides, unlike Landstill, MUC actually has a shot against 43 lands(which seems to be a norm in the top 8 at the 5ks) on the back of back to basics. With that said, nice job spellsyphon.
Looks like a pretty standard list. Although, your list seems like it could beat eva green but yeah sometimes Eva green can just go crazy by disrupting you straight out of the early game. Choke can also be an auto-win for them as well.
However, it's definitely good to see MUC get some playing time especially at the 5ks. I always think that MUC is quite playable in legacy no matter how advance the format becomes. Besides, unlike Landstill, MUC actually has a shot against 43 lands on the back of back to basics. With that said, nice job spellsyphon.
Yeah the list usually does beat eva green, at least in testing it did, against the same guy, so lucky him for having knowledege. I did get hit with choke once in testing but it was not an auto win since I had already played jace a few turns earlier and just jeced him out of the game with a full hand and completely untapped. Jace is also good against reanimator given you keep them off thier Inkwell and Iona, just didn't seem to do it for me when it mattered. I think if i was to play the deck again soon that I would probably cut the needles from the board in favor of something else, although I don't know what. They only got sided in against 2-land belcher and it was really win-more. Also, after playing this deck against the wide variety at the 5K i think that a stack control version could be viable. Of course shackles would most likely need to stay main, as well as propagandas (possible) but just being able to flood the early game with counters like Spell Snare, Counterspell, Force, and maybe even Mana Leak or Rune Snag, then producing a hard lock with Jace Beleran, Fobrid, and Arcane Lab, with capsize support seems awesome. This would be creatureless if I was to do it and the win would be either Jace for the mill or Ebony Owl Netsuke for damage, kind of like old school stasis ecks. Seems rough and needs testing but I think it can be good enough to beat up on the format.
I think forbid is pretty slick actually. It's like an awesome mid game card which can be quite potent when you have quite a few tools for the early game. I have actually won games against Team america by forbidding their force of will and then buying it back to counter their tombstalker the next turn. Alot of the time I have a tendency to keep about 2-3 islands in hand in the long game and so forbid becomes quite efficient there.
On another note, I think it would be funny to play a couple of Culling Scales in the sideboard to try to kill Iona and such. Not sure how it would pan out in testing but it seems a bit interesting to try. Although, I suppose you could also splash black for The Abyss.
Cool list Spellsyphon, considering the metagame at hand. The idea of stack control would be awesome. Awhile back Cecilia and I disscussed that, and I was experimenting with Jace Beleren and Forbid as well. If I found room for Arcane Laboratory, that would be sweet.
On another note, I think it would be funny to play a couple of Culling Scales in the sideboard to try to kill Iona and such. [/card].
You do realize that Culling Scales would eat itself before it had the chance to target Iona. If you're looking for a mono-blue answer Iona, look to morph. Echo Tracer, Chromeshell Crab, and Vesuvan Shapeshifter all work for this. The Shapeshifter is by far the cheapest one here. Aether Spellbomb also works as removal for her, and (as suggested by spellsyphon), Shackles can work if you live long enough to get 7 lands.
You do realize that Culling Scales would eat itself before it had the chance to target Iona. If you're looking for a mono-blue answer Iona, look to morph. Echo Tracer, Chromeshell Crab, and Vesuvan Shapeshifter all work for this. The Shapeshifter is by far the cheapest one here. Aether Spellbomb also works as removal for her, and (as suggested by spellsyphon), Shackles can work if you live long enough to get 7 lands.
Heh, my mistake, I didn't realize that and I was more so being sarcastic anyhow.
The problem with vesuvan shapeshifter, Echo tracer, and chromeshell crab is they all seem to be either too narrow and/or too expensive to cast. I'd rather play nevinyrral's disk to be honest because at least you can get it back with ruins if needed. Also, nevinyrral's disk can hit more matchups like merfolks and countertop progenitus. Although, another solid alternative is you can play a small splash of white and black to run cunning wish. Heck, even running faerie macabre seems pretty solid in the board right now too and it's uncounterable unless the reanimator player boards in stifles against you or something.
Heh, my mistake, I didn't realize that and I was more so being sarcastic anyhow.
The problem with vesuvan shapeshifter, Echo tracer, and chromeshell crab is they all seem to be either too narrow and/or too expensive to cast. I'd rather play nevinyrral's disk to be honest because at least you can get it back with ruins if needed. Also, nevinyrral's disk can hit more matchups like merfolks and countertop progenitus. Although, another solid alternative is you can play a small splash of white and black to run cunning wish. Heck, even running faerie macabre seems pretty solid in the board right now too and it's uncounterable unless the reanimator player boards in stifles against you or something.
Well, the Shapeshifter is your universal answer to any pesky legend. Because morph doesn't use the stack, D&T can't use Karakas to save their Mangara in response. It doesn't target, so it can remove Progenitus, and while morphing, it's colorless, so it can deal with Iona. I feel like it's the most versatile of the 3 that I mentioned, and by far the most viable.
I like disk, but you are using a handful of artifacts and enchantments that would end up as collateral damage, and it does have that pesky 'can't be used the turn you play it' thing
I like disk, but you are using a handful of artifacts and enchantments that would end up as collateral damage, and it does have that pesky 'can't be used the turn you play it' thing
That's why disk would be in the sideboard as oppose to the main. You'll just board out back to basics and propoganda for graveyard hate and nevinyrral's disk versus reanimator. Considering, both propoganda and disk seems dead against that matchup.
As for vesuvan shapeshifter, you can definitely test it but there are just better options you should be running in the same slot, IMO.
@maffe, starcity has it right, it is 21 islands and 1 ruins. 22 lands works well since i ran 4 impulse. the 1 ruins really didn't affect the deck alot whaen i played b2b. most of the time i used ruins to play b2b.
@kknd impulse over ponder since impulse is instant and digs four deep plus send the trash to the bottom.
@cecilia, back to basics and propaganda (especially propaganda) are relevant in the reanimator match, especially if you play to live long enough to steal iona with shackles. taking thier iona virtually locks them out of the game, they literally have to find a leviathan and get it into play to win. I literally was looking at a stalled leviathan game 1 (he entombed leviathan since he didnt know what i was playing and he went first) for six turns before he got the lands to pay for 3 propagandas to get the final points in. I believe the reanimator i played was in the top 8, definantly top 16.
now that its brought up, shapeshifter may be the way to go here for the board. he actually answers alot of problems. I was also thinkng about leyline of singularity to help improve the merfolk and enchantress matchups. I would play it out of opening hand but wait until they run out multiples of cards then play it as a type of mass removal spell. needs testing of course but the theory is good.
Spellsyphon, did you ever thought about running Force Spike?
At the moment, I am playing a similiar list. Just that I replaced one of each; Impulse, Powder Keg, Propaganda and Back to basics in order to be able to add a set of Force Spikes. Well, I did cut a Spell Snare for an additional island.
I have found that three is a safe number for Impulse, Keg, Propaganda and Back to Basics. Also, as far as my testing goes, it looks like a necessary evil to run those weak, if that´s the word, counterspells (talking about the Spikes). I believe there is already board control in the form of Shackles and such and not enough early game stack control. In the long term game, that common can still be pitched to a FoW...
But what do you think?
What does everyone here think?
Private Mod Note
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Legacy:
Dark Zoo
Dredge
Mono Blue Control
Reanimator
Eva Green
Spellsyphon, did you ever thought about running Force Spike?
At the moment, I am playing a similiar list. Just that I replaced one of each; Impulse, Powder Keg, Propaganda and Back to basics in order to be able to add a set of Force Spikes. Well, I did cut a Spell Snare for an additional island.
I have found that three is a safe number for Impulse, Keg, Propaganda and Back to Basics. Also, as far as my testing goes, it looks like a necessary evil to run those weak, if that´s the word, counterspells (talking about the Spikes). I believe there is already board control in the form of Shackles and such and not enough early game stack control. In the long term game, that common can still be pitched to a FoW...
But what do you think?
What does everyone here think?
The reason force spike is not run in my list is because it is not useful at anytime during the game, it is only good early, while spell snare, counterspell, and force of will are good early and late.
@maffe, blasts can probably go for something better, energy field may be fine there. I don't think we even need hibernation. Chalice solves a lot of problems for us by just setting it at 1. Elves have ways to play around it but its not that easy for them, goblins hate it, cuts half thier deck off. the only thing I can see hibernation going in for is counter-top prog, but seriously, that matchup is not as hard as it looks. The only viable decks that can win without creatures are ANT and 2-land Belcher. Belcher is nearly a buy for us and ANT is shut down by chalice for 0 and 1 (they can still storm out with a chalice at 0 but its hard) so propaganda is going to be the best card to combat any creature strategy. I really want a way to either play more in the deck or fetch them earlier. Survial is also not a problem in my opinion since it can be stunted by needles. The only card I did not like in my board was hydorblast and needles, but I know needles are very useful so they should stay but blasts can go.
Against zoo, I did not even side. Left it as is, my counters I saved for thier 2 drops and i played kegs and left them at 1. This plus propaganda, b2b, and shackles is a hard lock they cannot get out of. This is also the reason I ran Academy ruins. Ruins plus keg is a hard lock to goblins, elves, zoo, any weenie deck really. Even merfolk can have a hard time with it but not as much as others.
The best way to beat reanimator is to play b2b and propagandas, they really cant beat that, the problem is you have to find and resolve them. Not easy since they run very efficent disruption. I would rather have a way to deal with the creatures rather then stall them, Iona is actually easy to deal with, take it with shackles (again you have to draw and resolve one) and they really cant win at that point. Leviathan is actually really hard to deal with since it has shroud and islandwalk, i'm still working on ideas for that one.
Leyline may not be the best against merfolk since you really just want multiple propagandas, but it can wipe out multiple lords if they over extend which most tend to do. Leyline does held against enchantress though as they cannot lock the game (solitary confinement + 2 sterling groves) then wipe away (or some other bounce) can get confinement off the board when you can counter it from coming back out. I actually found the best way to beat enchantress is to play leyline, needle words of war, jace and target yourself to build up counters for ultimate, then bounce confinement to jace them for the win. It is easier then i thought it would be. I did not play leylines or bounce in my board since I did not see a heavy presence of any deck i thought they would be good aginst.
My board will always contain 4 chalice and 2-4 needles but everything else is open. I really like jace in there since against black (like eva green) it gives you a threat you can swap in for morphling that they can't edict away (efreet of course stays in against those type of decks)
AND just so everyone knows, 70% of my wins (or there about) were because of efreet, i just drew him more then morphling.
And so what? Just add in 4 Tropical Island and 10 blue fetches in place of 14 Islands, and then you can play Tarmogoyf as thought it was blue.
If your going to go this route you may as well play counter-top.
@kknd, force spike is dead in more matches then any other card in the deck, i see no reason to cut more useful cards that will help me win more games for less useful cards that won't. This is legacy, and this deck cannot afford to play situational or conditional counters if it wants to have a chance at winning. The majority of one drop spells you do not need to worry about (duress, thoughtseize and reanimate among the exceptions, but not entomb)
Shackles is dead against ANT, true, and Belcher but not against Reanimator, its not AS useful but its not dead. If there is a creature to steal that keg is not going to kill (Iona) then shackles is not dead.
As for all your examples of dead cards, do you not realize that you can side them out for things more relevant in the matchup? You say B2B is dead (or almost) against goblins, okay, but chalice is not. Side out B2B for Chalice in that match.
The key to building an effective sideboard is to know what your bad matches are and dedicate enough slot on the board to combat it, hopefully you can completely side out all the irrelevant cards for the relevant cards. People always complain to me about not knowing how to build or use a sideboard effectively, well ladies and gents I just gave you the most basic and key principle to a sideboard. Use it for bad matchup fixing and nothing else.
I was playing Spellsyphons list versus my friends Reanimator, and as predicted already, Inkwell Leviathan is a royal beating. So, after a number of games I thought maybe Energy Field would be techy. Right now, thats the only useful answer I can think of.
The counter package should remain the same in the permanent based build. Right now I am working on a stack oriented version, but it sure isn't easy.
If Enchantress is giving you fits, I would go with Washout. I know, it sounds real janky, and it is sadly, but its a decent answer to Enchantress. You don't want to use Disk as it will destroy your own board position.
I never thought of using Leyline of Singularity, but it sounds techy. I'll give it a whirl.
@Spellsyphon: Well, it depends really, when I would test against reanimator I would always board out back to basics and possibly propoganda for graveyard hate. Also, it's not like the reanimator player can't bounce or counter or duress your propoganda/back to basics. I could see a skilled reanimator player play around both with ease, especially with team left field's reanimator, as I find that version to be the best against blue based strategies, IMO.
Which brings me to say, I like faerie macabre against reanimator since it has proven it's worth in tournament play.
As for washout, I haven't really tested it but I could see it have some solid applications.
faerie marcabe seems decent against reanimator, may be better then crypts since I reanimator seems like the only deck we REALLY need graveyard hate against (most dredge, which would be the other option, cant beat multiple propagandas)
washout works against enchantress but is too slow to beat thier replenish combo, its not instant speed, which is why i like leyline. it doesnt stop words of war but it really cripples sigil of the empty throne.
sadly merfolk is such a bad matchup against us that the only thing i can think of is energy field stall until we can produce multiple propagandas.
another thing i was thinking, winter orb, if we can build the deck for it may work better then b2b. this would require the use of mox diamaond and its kind but may be the way to go with this. I was thinking side these for decks were b2b is really dead, such as merfolk, elves goblins (sometimes) and eva green (they can play around it)
Any one thinking of trying the leyline trick, remember you still need a way to deal with singular threats, like solitary confinement, so you need bounce of some sort. I like wipe away since split second seems relevant in almost every case i can think of.
I lost these games, badly, but these are the videos of them and I will be happy to answer an questions as to the plays I did or didn't make.
Powder keg is one of the best cards in the deck. I mean, it destroys almost all of the most played non-land permenents in this format.
As for dredge, I agree with propoganda being effective against dredge because it can force them to find an answer for it like chain of vapor. Although, relic of progenitus is still pretty good there too.
I thought about testing a split between 2 relics and 2 faerie macabre in the sideboard for this archetype. As it's a diverse and reliable configuration.
I don't think you had a reason to lose the first game, atleast, not at that point. Why did you counter the Jitte?
G2, Why didnt you counter the Confidant?
To me it looks like those 2 plays made you lose the game (or if you would've lost them anyway, much faster then neccesary). I don't think you really thought those situations out. Especially game 2.
Hindsight considered, I probably shouldn't have countered the jitte game1 and countered the confidant game2, but during the game the thought process was diffrent. I countered the jitte because I was NOT planning on recuring the keg that turn unless I had the chance to. Basically I was saving myself six damage at once instead of over a couple of turns. I actually think that I was giving my opponent too much credit this game and let myself get outplayed. Game2, yeah, he opened with duress, knew I had the force and played confidant next turn. This was an obvious bait for the force, counter or no, it was lose lose. I opted not to counter in the end since keg can kill confidant and I would rather hold the counter for something keg couldn't kill. I stand by this decision, but after seeing the game from the outside perspective, I would counter the confidant if i played the game again.
I was giving thought to options for merfolk and enchantress matches, as well as others. Now I know there are certain things in the board we want to keep, but how nessacary are they, really? Merfolk and Enchantress are really rough for us so we should be dedicating whatever we need on the board to defeat them. Chalice of the Void seems like it needs to stay a four of, but what of the rest? What do we really need Pithing Needle for? Crypt? Sure crypt helps against reanimator but if we just play tighter and conserve our counters then reanimator shouldnt mush of a problem, dredge cant beat 2+ propaganda. Needle, I keep trying to find a reason to keep it in but I can't think of any reason that I really needed it. So again, what do we do against Enchantress and Merfolk? Well Enchantress is full of enchantments (obv) so why not punish them for all the enchantments they play? Aura Flux seems good there. Propaganda works decently against merfolk but more propagandas would be better so maybe a couple of Copy Enchantment or we could make it really hard for them to play through propaganda with Pendrall Mists. Now if we have all these "upkep" effects then we can take it a step further and add Paradox Haze and do some serious damage to our opponents.
Yeah very rough, and I haven't had a chance to test this too much but thought I would through it out there to see what everyone thought. Also note that Solitary Confinement has an upkeep of discard a card so paradox haze could be more trouble then the enchantress player wants to deal with. Just make sure you counter Replenish!
Fact or fiction: Why is this supposed to be good? I never got that. Basically you spend four mana to draw 2.5 cards. Why not just as well use Concentrate? .5 more cards at sorcery speed.
I guess i IS good, and i want it to be good, but i'd like someone to clarify this for me.
Edit: And whats the "end of turn"-advantage with this thing?
So alot of my friends are starting to play legacy (finally), and my one friend is having trouble choosing a deck. He finally chose to try out a Mono-U "Prison" deck. However, I feel that he's thinking too...casually? I suggested that if he's going to run mono-u control perhaps try Mono-U Stax or even Dreadstill. But he insisted on this. So I'm here to ask for help in helping him.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
Spellsyphon, could you do us a favor and post the decklist so we can all talk about it? I'm pretty excited, since MUC is my favorite deck of all time, and by the way CONGRATULATIONS on the finish!
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
Instants
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
Artifacts
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalkin Shackles
Land
1 Academy Ruins
22 Island
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Thats what i placed 13th with at scg orlando open legacy. Record was 5-2 only loses being reanimator and eva green. Jace was in the board for those exact matches bit sadly i never saw them. Wins were against thresh, 2x zoo, dredge and 2 land belcher.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
Looks like a pretty standard list. Although, your list seems like it could beat eva green but yeah sometimes Eva green can just go crazy by disrupting you straight out of the early game. Choke can also be an auto-win for them as well.
However, it's definitely good to see MUC get some playing time especially at the 5ks. I always think that MUC is quite playable in legacy no matter how advance the format becomes. Besides, unlike Landstill, MUC actually has a shot against 43 lands(which seems to be a norm in the top 8 at the 5ks) on the back of back to basics. With that said, nice job spellsyphon.
Yeah the list usually does beat eva green, at least in testing it did, against the same guy, so lucky him for having knowledege. I did get hit with choke once in testing but it was not an auto win since I had already played jace a few turns earlier and just jeced him out of the game with a full hand and completely untapped. Jace is also good against reanimator given you keep them off thier Inkwell and Iona, just didn't seem to do it for me when it mattered. I think if i was to play the deck again soon that I would probably cut the needles from the board in favor of something else, although I don't know what. They only got sided in against 2-land belcher and it was really win-more. Also, after playing this deck against the wide variety at the 5K i think that a stack control version could be viable. Of course shackles would most likely need to stay main, as well as propagandas (possible) but just being able to flood the early game with counters like Spell Snare, Counterspell, Force, and maybe even Mana Leak or Rune Snag, then producing a hard lock with Jace Beleran, Fobrid, and Arcane Lab, with capsize support seems awesome. This would be creatureless if I was to do it and the win would be either Jace for the mill or Ebony Owl Netsuke for damage, kind of like old school stasis ecks. Seems rough and needs testing but I think it can be good enough to beat up on the format.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
On another note, I think it would be funny to play a couple of Culling Scales in the sideboard to try to kill Iona and such. Not sure how it would pan out in testing but it seems a bit interesting to try. Although, I suppose you could also splash black for The Abyss.
Anyone here tested Calicite Snapper against agro/combo/control? I wasn't able to test these past few weeks due to work stuff.
Man, I am SO excited! MUC back in the game
You do realize that Culling Scales would eat itself before it had the chance to target Iona. If you're looking for a mono-blue answer Iona, look to morph. Echo Tracer, Chromeshell Crab, and Vesuvan Shapeshifter all work for this. The Shapeshifter is by far the cheapest one here. Aether Spellbomb also works as removal for her, and (as suggested by spellsyphon), Shackles can work if you live long enough to get 7 lands.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Heh, my mistake, I didn't realize that and I was more so being sarcastic anyhow.
The problem with vesuvan shapeshifter, Echo tracer, and chromeshell crab is they all seem to be either too narrow and/or too expensive to cast. I'd rather play nevinyrral's disk to be honest because at least you can get it back with ruins if needed. Also, nevinyrral's disk can hit more matchups like merfolks and countertop progenitus. Although, another solid alternative is you can play a small splash of white and black to run cunning wish. Heck, even running faerie macabre seems pretty solid in the board right now too and it's uncounterable unless the reanimator player boards in stifles against you or something.
Well, the Shapeshifter is your universal answer to any pesky legend. Because morph doesn't use the stack, D&T can't use Karakas to save their Mangara in response. It doesn't target, so it can remove Progenitus, and while morphing, it's colorless, so it can deal with Iona. I feel like it's the most versatile of the 3 that I mentioned, and by far the most viable.
I like disk, but you are using a handful of artifacts and enchantments that would end up as collateral damage, and it does have that pesky 'can't be used the turn you play it' thing
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
That's why disk would be in the sideboard as oppose to the main. You'll just board out back to basics and propoganda for graveyard hate and nevinyrral's disk versus reanimator. Considering, both propoganda and disk seems dead against that matchup.
As for vesuvan shapeshifter, you can definitely test it but there are just better options you should be running in the same slot, IMO.
@kknd impulse over ponder since impulse is instant and digs four deep plus send the trash to the bottom.
@cecilia, back to basics and propaganda (especially propaganda) are relevant in the reanimator match, especially if you play to live long enough to steal iona with shackles. taking thier iona virtually locks them out of the game, they literally have to find a leviathan and get it into play to win. I literally was looking at a stalled leviathan game 1 (he entombed leviathan since he didnt know what i was playing and he went first) for six turns before he got the lands to pay for 3 propagandas to get the final points in. I believe the reanimator i played was in the top 8, definantly top 16.
now that its brought up, shapeshifter may be the way to go here for the board. he actually answers alot of problems. I was also thinkng about leyline of singularity to help improve the merfolk and enchantress matchups. I would play it out of opening hand but wait until they run out multiples of cards then play it as a type of mass removal spell. needs testing of course but the theory is good.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
At the moment, I am playing a similiar list. Just that I replaced one of each; Impulse, Powder Keg, Propaganda and Back to basics in order to be able to add a set of Force Spikes. Well, I did cut a Spell Snare for an additional island.
I have found that three is a safe number for Impulse, Keg, Propaganda and Back to Basics. Also, as far as my testing goes, it looks like a necessary evil to run those weak, if that´s the word, counterspells (talking about the Spikes). I believe there is already board control in the form of Shackles and such and not enough early game stack control. In the long term game, that common can still be pitched to a FoW...
But what do you think?
What does everyone here think?
Dark Zoo
Dredge
Mono Blue Control
Reanimator
Eva Green
The reason force spike is not run in my list is because it is not useful at anytime during the game, it is only good early, while spell snare, counterspell, and force of will are good early and late.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
Against zoo, I did not even side. Left it as is, my counters I saved for thier 2 drops and i played kegs and left them at 1. This plus propaganda, b2b, and shackles is a hard lock they cannot get out of. This is also the reason I ran Academy ruins. Ruins plus keg is a hard lock to goblins, elves, zoo, any weenie deck really. Even merfolk can have a hard time with it but not as much as others.
The best way to beat reanimator is to play b2b and propagandas, they really cant beat that, the problem is you have to find and resolve them. Not easy since they run very efficent disruption. I would rather have a way to deal with the creatures rather then stall them, Iona is actually easy to deal with, take it with shackles (again you have to draw and resolve one) and they really cant win at that point. Leviathan is actually really hard to deal with since it has shroud and islandwalk, i'm still working on ideas for that one.
Leyline may not be the best against merfolk since you really just want multiple propagandas, but it can wipe out multiple lords if they over extend which most tend to do. Leyline does held against enchantress though as they cannot lock the game (solitary confinement + 2 sterling groves) then wipe away (or some other bounce) can get confinement off the board when you can counter it from coming back out. I actually found the best way to beat enchantress is to play leyline, needle words of war, jace and target yourself to build up counters for ultimate, then bounce confinement to jace them for the win. It is easier then i thought it would be. I did not play leylines or bounce in my board since I did not see a heavy presence of any deck i thought they would be good aginst.
My board will always contain 4 chalice and 2-4 needles but everything else is open. I really like jace in there since against black (like eva green) it gives you a threat you can swap in for morphling that they can't edict away (efreet of course stays in against those type of decks)
AND just so everyone knows, 70% of my wins (or there about) were because of efreet, i just drew him more then morphling.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
If your going to go this route you may as well play counter-top.
@kknd, force spike is dead in more matches then any other card in the deck, i see no reason to cut more useful cards that will help me win more games for less useful cards that won't. This is legacy, and this deck cannot afford to play situational or conditional counters if it wants to have a chance at winning. The majority of one drop spells you do not need to worry about (duress, thoughtseize and reanimate among the exceptions, but not entomb)
Shackles is dead against ANT, true, and Belcher but not against Reanimator, its not AS useful but its not dead. If there is a creature to steal that keg is not going to kill (Iona) then shackles is not dead.
As for all your examples of dead cards, do you not realize that you can side them out for things more relevant in the matchup? You say B2B is dead (or almost) against goblins, okay, but chalice is not. Side out B2B for Chalice in that match.
The key to building an effective sideboard is to know what your bad matches are and dedicate enough slot on the board to combat it, hopefully you can completely side out all the irrelevant cards for the relevant cards. People always complain to me about not knowing how to build or use a sideboard effectively, well ladies and gents I just gave you the most basic and key principle to a sideboard. Use it for bad matchup fixing and nothing else.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
The counter package should remain the same in the permanent based build. Right now I am working on a stack oriented version, but it sure isn't easy.
If Enchantress is giving you fits, I would go with Washout. I know, it sounds real janky, and it is sadly, but its a decent answer to Enchantress. You don't want to use Disk as it will destroy your own board position.
I never thought of using Leyline of Singularity, but it sounds techy. I'll give it a whirl.
Which brings me to say, I like faerie macabre against reanimator since it has proven it's worth in tournament play.
As for washout, I haven't really tested it but I could see it have some solid applications.
washout works against enchantress but is too slow to beat thier replenish combo, its not instant speed, which is why i like leyline. it doesnt stop words of war but it really cripples sigil of the empty throne.
sadly merfolk is such a bad matchup against us that the only thing i can think of is energy field stall until we can produce multiple propagandas.
another thing i was thinking, winter orb, if we can build the deck for it may work better then b2b. this would require the use of mox diamaond and its kind but may be the way to go with this. I was thinking side these for decks were b2b is really dead, such as merfolk, elves goblins (sometimes) and eva green (they can play around it)
Any one thinking of trying the leyline trick, remember you still need a way to deal with singular threats, like solitary confinement, so you need bounce of some sort. I like wipe away since split second seems relevant in almost every case i can think of.
I lost these games, badly, but these are the videos of them and I will be happy to answer an questions as to the plays I did or didn't make.
Round 6 game 1 vs Eva Green (youtube video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8pDPEMJ8Hs
Round 6 game 2 vs Eva Green (youtube video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVWmMzuRVzQ
Deck is featured in the "Daily Deck List" section on the mothership for April 1, 2010.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
As for dredge, I agree with propoganda being effective against dredge because it can force them to find an answer for it like chain of vapor. Although, relic of progenitus is still pretty good there too.
I thought about testing a split between 2 relics and 2 faerie macabre in the sideboard for this archetype. As it's a diverse and reliable configuration.
Hindsight considered, I probably shouldn't have countered the jitte game1 and countered the confidant game2, but during the game the thought process was diffrent. I countered the jitte because I was NOT planning on recuring the keg that turn unless I had the chance to. Basically I was saving myself six damage at once instead of over a couple of turns. I actually think that I was giving my opponent too much credit this game and let myself get outplayed. Game2, yeah, he opened with duress, knew I had the force and played confidant next turn. This was an obvious bait for the force, counter or no, it was lose lose. I opted not to counter in the end since keg can kill confidant and I would rather hold the counter for something keg couldn't kill. I stand by this decision, but after seeing the game from the outside perspective, I would counter the confidant if i played the game again.
I was giving thought to options for merfolk and enchantress matches, as well as others. Now I know there are certain things in the board we want to keep, but how nessacary are they, really? Merfolk and Enchantress are really rough for us so we should be dedicating whatever we need on the board to defeat them. Chalice of the Void seems like it needs to stay a four of, but what of the rest? What do we really need Pithing Needle for? Crypt? Sure crypt helps against reanimator but if we just play tighter and conserve our counters then reanimator shouldnt mush of a problem, dredge cant beat 2+ propaganda. Needle, I keep trying to find a reason to keep it in but I can't think of any reason that I really needed it. So again, what do we do against Enchantress and Merfolk? Well Enchantress is full of enchantments (obv) so why not punish them for all the enchantments they play? Aura Flux seems good there. Propaganda works decently against merfolk but more propagandas would be better so maybe a couple of Copy Enchantment or we could make it really hard for them to play through propaganda with Pendrall Mists. Now if we have all these "upkep" effects then we can take it a step further and add Paradox Haze and do some serious damage to our opponents.
So roughly:
4 Chalice
4 Aura Flux
4 Pendrall Mists
3 Paradox Haze
Yeah very rough, and I haven't had a chance to test this too much but thought I would through it out there to see what everyone thought. Also note that Solitary Confinement has an upkeep of discard a card so paradox haze could be more trouble then the enchantress player wants to deal with. Just make sure you counter Replenish!
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
I guess i IS good, and i want it to be good, but i'd like someone to clarify this for me.
Edit: And whats the "end of turn"-advantage with this thing?
Here's his current list and sideboard:
2x Morphling
Spells: 36
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Spell Snare
4x Back to Basics
4x Propaganda
4x Impulse
4x Powder Keg
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Standstill
21x Island
1x Academy Ruins
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Hydroblast
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Vedalken Shackles
Any suggestions to make this better?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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