The deck that got 3rd at the recent legacy 5K ran bolts main instead of spell snare, so its certainly viable. (I love spell snare though). I really like that putting a couple bolts main frees up sideboard space, since there is a ton of stuff I want to fit in there.
You have obviously never heard of the "Rich Shay Factor" It is a phenomenon in which Rich tests something excessively and then goes with the card choice that worked less in testing and then top 4/8's (wins... etc... etc) anyways. Bolt (or Fire/Ice) main is not bad at all, just Dreadstill's G1 is so good against most of the field that they really aren't necessary, The only slots that I could actually see being cut are: Counterbalance #4 and E.E. #2, but like I previously stated I don't think you improve enough important matchups by adding it in comparison to the matchups you weaken by cutting the CB.
I have been testing UGr Dreadstill alot recently. It tests well against merfolks and zoo. While Jace has been a bomb later in the game because he provides card draw and you can easily protect him with counterbalance, goyfs, and dreadnought. Jace is also a nice supplement to standstill in my opinion as well.
Shackles still has merit in the modern environment with merfolks being all over the place. Also, when you combine shackles with firespout tribal decks usually have a hard time recovering.
Honestly if you're going for 4 Noughts you should run a 4/3 split for Balance/Top respectively. 4 Noughts sets you up for so many 2 for 1s it's silly. So you need more countermagic.
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SKRules on Dark Rit art
5th is just a guy snapping his fingers. Maybe Nicol Bolas can get mana that way, but I can't.
Board in ancient grudges, krosan grips and just beat down with an 12/12 trampler. Just like any other deck, if affinity can't handle a dreadnought then it's basically a bye for you anyway.
In addition to what Cecilia said, Affinity is also very susceptible to Counter-top, Spell Snare, and Stifle, as all of their relevent spells cost 1 or 2 (with the exception of Master E)
Stifling the modular trigger is a great way to help clench a tight match. Game 1 things can really go either way, place priority on the early dreadnaught since few affinity lists have MD answers. Barring that snare anything you can and try to keep Vial off the table. If Vial hits the table they can play around counter-top rather well; and having the counter-top engine is really your biggest edge and inevitability in this MU.
i am running Ugr and my sideboard is
2 sower of temptation
2 blue elemental blast
3 firespout
3 krosan grip
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 tormod's crypt
Also, on a side-note, here is an interesting side-boarding strategy I have been testing out against Merfolk when on the Play.
-4 Force of Will
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
My Logic behind this is that with the exception of Turn 1 Vial there are literally zero cards in Merfolk that require a FOW and the Merfolk match-up is very tempo oriented so the 2 for 1ing of FOW is actually relevant, also you are bringing in so many non blue cards while taking out blue cards that you greatly weaken FOW's blue count.
On the Draw it's:
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 REB
+3 Firespout
I took the U/G/R list from the OP to a local last weekend and won most matches 2-0. Went to finals against Rock and literally couldn't do anything. I don't have a whole lot of legacy experience, so could one of you vets talk about how a successful game is played against Rock?
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The same way it beats everything else. Say no to board clear and own face.
Seriously though i can understand what you mean. A good Rock deck has alot of cards that can specifically hinder this deck. Counterbalance as a primary strat is the only way i have ever beaten them. It usualy locks them down well enough to protect 2 swings from a Dreadnought.
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Yeah, the matchup is all about CB/T although your not going to hit all their creatures, you can counter all their removal and just get there... post side Sower of Temptation really shines if you run it. Your boarding strategy should involve going down to 1 Dreadnought, as it makes your opponents 1000x Dreadnought kill cards that are coming in basically dead but still give you the option of Trinket Maging for him when you have the game locked up and it's time to end it. Also it is not necessarily bad to bring in Firespout since it deals with creatures like Bob and more importantly ups your 3cc count for CB (obviously Grip should be coming in too.)
Also, in other news Ur Dreadstill came in 6th at the SCG's Charlotte 5k today after coming in 3rd at the end of swiss (5-0-2) and then losing to the 6th seed UGB Counterbalance in top 8.
firespout also indirectly helps protect your counterbalance, helps your chance of finding a 3cc to leave on top if you think your opponent is going to grip your dreadnought or more importantly (in this match up at least) if you think they are ready to grip your counterbalance, honestly Rock (sometimes eva green) is just about our worst match up, and it takes experience playing against that deck to get a feel for what to do.
On a side note i have been finding that i have been beating Rock builds and Eva Green more consistently then dragon stompy, my friend has dragon stompy and it is 50/50 pre and post board every time we play for some reason. Any explanations, or more importantly any comments on what other players do to combat that deck?
firespout also indirectly helps protect your counterbalance, helps your chance of finding a 3cc to leave on top if you think your opponent is going to grip your dreadnought or more importantly (in this match up at least) if you think they are ready to grip your counterbalance, honestly Rock (sometimes eva green) is just about our worst match up, and it takes experience playing against that deck to get a feel for what to do.
On a side note i have been finding that i have been beating Rock builds and Eva Green more consistently then dragon stompy, my friend has dragon stompy and it is 50/50 pre and post board every time we play for some reason. Any explanations, or more importantly any comments on what other players do to combat that deck?
Except Grip has split second. So we can't use CBTop to counter it.
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DarthQueeg:
I shuffle by cutting the heads off of reptiles and watching the patterns of blood on a flat marble surface.
Then, based on the patterns as determined by Roklar, the Lizard Lord, praise be to His name, I shuffle accordingly.
Counterbalance still triggers when a Split Second spell is on the stack so if you have a 3cc card on top when a Grip is cast you can counter it.
Right. We just can't activate top. So it basically requires a permanent investment of 1 colorless to keep that Spout on top. Which at least in my build, can be sketchy, as I run very few non utility lands. Read: Wasteland, Fetches, Factories.
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DarthQueeg:
I shuffle by cutting the heads off of reptiles and watching the patterns of blood on a flat marble surface.
Then, based on the patterns as determined by Roklar, the Lizard Lord, praise be to His name, I shuffle accordingly.
Right. We just can't activate top. So it basically requires a permanent investment of 1 colorless to keep that Spout on top. Which at least in my build, can be sketchy, as I run very few non utility lands. Read: Wasteland, Fetches, Factories.
so basically your saying it might not be worth 1 mana a turn to protect your dreadnought or counterbalance? right..
anothor sidenote, any one think zendikar offers anything that we should try testing, or anything we might need to be concerned about?
i have already gotten my hands on the new fetches and i must say that the ability to run 1 basic forest has all but made my matches against my friends dragon stompy deck a joke, i won 11 games in a row because bloodmoon effects no longer stop my krosan grips from hitting or my tarms for that matter, wondering if anyone has had time to test yet?
This is my new land base
4x misty rainforest
2x scalding tarn
1x forest
2x island
3x tropical island
2x volcanic island
4x mishra's factory
3x wasteland
I've never played this deck myself, but I'm wondering about the choice of a red splash. What does it offer? The primer doesn't mention a white splash which seems like a better option. You'd get:
Enlightened Tutor: This is huge. It helps you assemble CounterTop, and after it's in play, it let's you tutor art/ench of various ccs to counter even 3cc spells with some consistency. It also fetches Nought which is good, because I don't see how you'd want to run 3-4 noughts with 4-6 stifle effects. Seems you'd sit with a dead nought in hand a lot of the time. With 2-3 Trinket Mage and 3ish ETutotors, you could easily go down to 2 noughts.
Swords to Plowshares: Obviously.
Jotun Grunt: The white alternative to playing goyf.
Enchantment/artifact toobox: ETutor and the white splash opens up for many useful silver bullets, more consistency in EExplosives etc. A singleton Propaganda in the main could do wonders against tribal aggro game 1 for instance, while also being a 3cc target for CB. Sideboard options abound in white too.
I'd like to see an Uw or even UW version with ETutor, and perhaps with a bit more utility creatures. Something like UW fish with CounterTop and Nought. What do you think?
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Also, on a side-note, here is an interesting side-boarding strategy I have been testing out against Merfolk when on the Play.
-4 Force of Will
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
My Logic behind this is that with the exception of Turn 1 Vial there are literally zero cards in Merfolk that require a FOW and the Merfolk match-up is very tempo oriented so the 2 for 1ing of FOW is actually relevant, also you are bringing in so many non blue cards while taking out blue cards that you greatly weaken FOW's blue count.
On the Draw it's:
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 REB
+3 Firespout
I think I'll have to test that SB strategy as it really does board in so many cards that hose Merfolk. I'm still not sure how I feel about boarding out FoW, particularly if the Merfolk players knows my sideboarding strategy. I would at least like the option of bluffing Force, but REB is probably just as scary as Force. Maybe 4 Elemental Blast and 3 Bolt?
It's mostly sideboarding options against fast aggro, similar to tempo thresh. I think Dreadstill doesn't want to fully commit to the Stiflenought plan and have a strong core. With cards like Enlightened Tutor you might actually be overcommiting to the two card combo.
Quite the contrary, if anything you'd be focusing more on the CounterTop mechanic. The fact that you can also tutor for the nought is a nice bonus, that actually allows you to reduce the number of noughts in the deck. Adding more "answer" type cards like EE in the art/ench box also makes the deck less of a one trick pony rather than more.
I see it like this:
1) CounterTop is the most powerful control engine in legacy
2) ETutor helps you assemble it and make the most of it
3) Since you're in blue already, run Trinket Mage to help get SDT
4) Stifle is a solid card in the meta that compensates for CounterTop's weaknesses
5) When running this shell already, it would be stupid not to include a couple of noughts and other useful trinkets/enchantments (1x Crucible, 1x EE, 1x Propaganda... etc.)
I think it could be extremely solid. Just round the above out with some Standstill, FoW, Daze, Grunt and StP and you should have a decent MU against most deck types out there.
I could put up a sample list here for critique, but I'm not sure it belongs in this thread since there's no white splash list in the original primer.
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You have obviously never heard of the "Rich Shay Factor" It is a phenomenon in which Rich tests something excessively and then goes with the card choice that worked less in testing and then top 4/8's (wins... etc... etc) anyways. Bolt (or Fire/Ice) main is not bad at all, just Dreadstill's G1 is so good against most of the field that they really aren't necessary, The only slots that I could actually see being cut are: Counterbalance #4 and E.E. #2, but like I previously stated I don't think you improve enough important matchups by adding it in comparison to the matchups you weaken by cutting the CB.
C.I.#:5
Shackles still has merit in the modern environment with merfolks being all over the place. Also, when you combine shackles with firespout tribal decks usually have a hard time recovering.
Here is my list:
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
Creatures
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
1 Jace Beleren
Other Spells
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Standstill
1 Trickbind
4 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Pyroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
I will be trying the following list:
4 Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
Sideboard:
3 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
Board in ancient grudges, krosan grips and just beat down with an 12/12 trampler. Just like any other deck, if affinity can't handle a dreadnought then it's basically a bye for you anyway.
In addition to what Cecilia said, Affinity is also very susceptible to Counter-top, Spell Snare, and Stifle, as all of their relevent spells cost 1 or 2 (with the exception of Master E)
C.I.#:5
Stifling the modular trigger is a great way to help clench a tight match. Game 1 things can really go either way, place priority on the early dreadnaught since few affinity lists have MD answers. Barring that snare anything you can and try to keep Vial off the table. If Vial hits the table they can play around counter-top rather well; and having the counter-top engine is really your biggest edge and inevitability in this MU.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
2 sower of temptation
2 blue elemental blast
3 firespout
3 krosan grip
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 tormod's crypt
my main board is very standard..
What would be best to board in a mirror match?
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
-1 Trickbind
+2 Sower of Temptation
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Krosan Grip
On the Play:
Same but -1 Spell Snare -1 E.E. instead of -2 Daze
There are small changes based on list changes specifically how many Dreadnoughts, Dazes, Standstills, and E.E.'s do you play?
C.I.#:5
2 dazes
3 standstills
2 Explosives
Also, on a side-note, here is an interesting side-boarding strategy I have been testing out against Merfolk when on the Play.
-4 Force of Will
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
My Logic behind this is that with the exception of Turn 1 Vial there are literally zero cards in Merfolk that require a FOW and the Merfolk match-up is very tempo oriented so the 2 for 1ing of FOW is actually relevant, also you are bringing in so many non blue cards while taking out blue cards that you greatly weaken FOW's blue count.
On the Draw it's:
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 REB
+3 Firespout
C.I.#:5
I took the U/G/R list from the OP to a local last weekend and won most matches 2-0. Went to finals against Rock and literally couldn't do anything. I don't have a whole lot of legacy experience, so could one of you vets talk about how a successful game is played against Rock?
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Seriously though i can understand what you mean. A good Rock deck has alot of cards that can specifically hinder this deck. Counterbalance as a primary strat is the only way i have ever beaten them. It usualy locks them down well enough to protect 2 swings from a Dreadnought.
+=+=+=+=+Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the Sig!!!+=+=+=+=+
Currently Playing: RGBWAggro LoamWBGR ,BU Reanimator UB, RG 2 Land Belcher GR & UGW Pro Bant WGU
Author of: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207749 (Proven Competitive: Aggro Loam Thread)
Also, in other news Ur Dreadstill came in 6th at the SCG's Charlotte 5k today after coming in 3rd at the end of swiss (5-0-2) and then losing to the 6th seed UGB Counterbalance in top 8.
C.I.#:5
On a side note i have been finding that i have been beating Rock builds and Eva Green more consistently then dragon stompy, my friend has dragon stompy and it is 50/50 pre and post board every time we play for some reason. Any explanations, or more importantly any comments on what other players do to combat that deck?
Except Grip has split second. So we can't use CBTop to counter it.
I shuffle by cutting the heads off of reptiles and watching the patterns of blood on a flat marble surface.
Then, based on the patterns as determined by Roklar, the Lizard Lord, praise be to His name, I shuffle accordingly.
Counterbalance still triggers when a Split Second spell is on the stack so if you have a 3cc card on top when a Grip is cast you can counter it.
Join the Crusade against Mythic Rares!
We aren't anyone's milking cow!
(\ /)
(o.O)
(> <)
Bunny says so!
Right. We just can't activate top. So it basically requires a permanent investment of 1 colorless to keep that Spout on top. Which at least in my build, can be sketchy, as I run very few non utility lands. Read: Wasteland, Fetches, Factories.
I shuffle by cutting the heads off of reptiles and watching the patterns of blood on a flat marble surface.
Then, based on the patterns as determined by Roklar, the Lizard Lord, praise be to His name, I shuffle accordingly.
1. You contradicted yourself.
2. The point your trying to get across is?
Join the Crusade against Mythic Rares!
We aren't anyone's milking cow!
(\ /)
(o.O)
(> <)
Bunny says so!
so basically your saying it might not be worth 1 mana a turn to protect your dreadnought or counterbalance? right..
anothor sidenote, any one think zendikar offers anything that we should try testing, or anything we might need to be concerned about?
i have already gotten my hands on the new fetches and i must say that the ability to run 1 basic forest has all but made my matches against my friends dragon stompy deck a joke, i won 11 games in a row because bloodmoon effects no longer stop my krosan grips from hitting or my tarms for that matter, wondering if anyone has had time to test yet?
This is my new land base
4x misty rainforest
2x scalding tarn
1x forest
2x island
3x tropical island
2x volcanic island
4x mishra's factory
3x wasteland
I believe he is trying to say that if youre lucky enough to have it on top, counterbalance will trigger, but you cant use top to fetch it.
Enlightened Tutor: This is huge. It helps you assemble CounterTop, and after it's in play, it let's you tutor art/ench of various ccs to counter even 3cc spells with some consistency. It also fetches Nought which is good, because I don't see how you'd want to run 3-4 noughts with 4-6 stifle effects. Seems you'd sit with a dead nought in hand a lot of the time. With 2-3 Trinket Mage and 3ish ETutotors, you could easily go down to 2 noughts.
Swords to Plowshares: Obviously.
Jotun Grunt: The white alternative to playing goyf.
Enchantment/artifact toobox: ETutor and the white splash opens up for many useful silver bullets, more consistency in EExplosives etc. A singleton Propaganda in the main could do wonders against tribal aggro game 1 for instance, while also being a 3cc target for CB. Sideboard options abound in white too.
I'd like to see an Uw or even UW version with ETutor, and perhaps with a bit more utility creatures. Something like UW fish with CounterTop and Nought. What do you think?
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I think I'll have to test that SB strategy as it really does board in so many cards that hose Merfolk. I'm still not sure how I feel about boarding out FoW, particularly if the Merfolk players knows my sideboarding strategy. I would at least like the option of bluffing Force, but REB is probably just as scary as Force. Maybe 4 Elemental Blast and 3 Bolt?
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
Quite the contrary, if anything you'd be focusing more on the CounterTop mechanic. The fact that you can also tutor for the nought is a nice bonus, that actually allows you to reduce the number of noughts in the deck. Adding more "answer" type cards like EE in the art/ench box also makes the deck less of a one trick pony rather than more.
I see it like this:
1) CounterTop is the most powerful control engine in legacy
2) ETutor helps you assemble it and make the most of it
3) Since you're in blue already, run Trinket Mage to help get SDT
4) Stifle is a solid card in the meta that compensates for CounterTop's weaknesses
5) When running this shell already, it would be stupid not to include a couple of noughts and other useful trinkets/enchantments (1x Crucible, 1x EE, 1x Propaganda... etc.)
I think it could be extremely solid. Just round the above out with some Standstill, FoW, Daze, Grunt and StP and you should have a decent MU against most deck types out there.
I could put up a sample list here for critique, but I'm not sure it belongs in this thread since there's no white splash list in the original primer.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]