so who went to Grand Prix chicago i know i saaw at least 4 other white stax players and had to play against two, i ended up doing poorly because of a last min cut for runed halo insted of o-ring and it costed me both mirror match games
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Yeah there seemed to be a decent amount of Stax there from what I was reading.
Runed Halo is good stuff, but I like O-ring better because of the fact that it costs only one white mana making it so much easier to cast. I can get white pretty decently in the deck, but getting double white really stretches things.
There've been two small-ish events in the last month(ish) that this has been played at in the area, and it's won both. The first one was piloted by a friend in a local pre-GP event, and the second one was piloted by me in an event that was supposed to be for an Emerald, though for various reasons the Emerald wasn't up for grabs. (the way it was, you never mind until you're the person that gets the top )
The deck today was 4-0-1, beating UGwb Thresh, Dreadstill, Death/Taxes, and 1-Land Belcher.
I actually have a bit of a bad opinion of the 4C Thresh matchup, compared to the OP, but this turned into a slow match after I learned my opponent netdecked and didn't really spend much time in testing. I don't think there was anything wrong done in this match by him (that would make the match easier), but both games were Smokestack rolling into a slow lock. (SB: -4 CotV, -1 Trinisphere, +3 Pithing, +1 Ghostly, +1 Oblivion Ring)
Dreadstill came down to me being able to clog the board just quick enough every game. One game involved 2 Magus out + Ghostly Prison to just clog up the board for a while. This matchup also brings up what I think is the most underestimated weakness of running Elspeth, in that it provides an alternate route for Tarmogoyf to get larger than Magus. (SB: can't honestly remember)
Death/Taxes was just a trio of odd matches, game 1 I didn't need to deal with any of the synergy of the deck (but he had enough power to drill through), and games 2/3 the synergy was mostly broken by Pithing Needles. (SB: -4 CotV, -4 Trinisphere, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Ghostly, +1 Oblivion Ring, +3 Powder Keg)
The Belcher matchup was pretty straightforward. Game 1 he only EtW for 6; I get Ghostly Prison out turn 2 and take my time clogging the board. (SB: -4 Armageddon, -03 Oblivion Ring, -04 Smokestack, +3 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Ghostly Prison, +4 Powder Keg, +3 Pithing Needle) Game 2 he plays and wins on turn 1. Game 3 I keep a hand that can drop turn 1 Powder Keg, turn 2 Ghostly Prison and risk that he only has the EtW kill. I Turn-1 the Powder Keg, and his hand is exactly right to Shattering Spree Powder Keg and EtW, but one short to hit my Mox Diamond that enables the Ghostly Prison. I draw and drop Chalice @ 0 that second turn off the draw, and draw into a Magus to seal the game.
EDIT 07/21/09: I'm just updating this with a recent event, going 4-0, making this deck so far 16-0-1 in sanctioned matches since building it.
Changes:
SB:
-3 Ethersworn Canonist
-3 Karmic Justice
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Pithing Needle
+4 Defense Grid
+2 Circle of Protection: Red
Round 1: Rock
I see the pairings for round 1 and go "oh crap". Mostly because this is a relatively casual setting and I get paired against something pretty good.
Game 1 I get obliterated with a slow hand and an opponent who launches turn 2+3 Putrid Leech then Rancor, which I can only slow down through Oblivion Ring.
SB: +4 Pithing Needle, +1 Ghostly Prison, [can't remember the side out]
Game 2, the deck works, I lock his Leech pumps early and am able to get the game into a Smokestack lock.
Game 3, I get Chalice @ 1 out and Chalice @ 2 out early. I then take the risk and Chalice @ 3 to lock out Vindicate/Pulse/Deed (didn't know the distribution he was running), and then I make the mistake of assuming and drop Chalice @ 4, pegging the game on Factories. I get there on the turn he casts the Indrik Stomphowler I didn't see on the Chalice @ 3; at least that opens up Oblivion Ring for the final hit
1-0 : 2-1
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1, easy win after a fast Trinisphere and rolling into Wasteland/Crucible pseudo-lock, smashing with Factory for 20 before 3 Citadels arrive.
SB: +4 Pithing Needle, +4 Powder Keg, +1 Ghostly Prison, -4 Armageddon, -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Crucible of Worlds
Game 2 was a case of Stax beating itself. I get a turn-1 Powder Keg into a turn-2 Powder Keg + Pithing Needle, while the opponent is mana flooded. He still gets enough beef that the 3 Factories I drew are mostly trading fodder while I setup a Smokestack @ 1 for a good number of turns. I proceed to draw 3 Mox Diamonds in a row and then uncastable big things, while my opponent's manaflood allows him to continuously have non-relevant things to sac to Smokestack. I finally blow the Smokestack at 2 lands, and don't see another land to start dropping the hand of juice I locked myself out of.
Game 3 was like game 1, an early Trinisphere into a lock; this time Elspeth, Crucible, and Smokestack setup the hard lock.
2-0 : 4-2
Round 3: Soldiers
I saw this deck from earlier, and I thought this was really a bad matchup, as it turned into Chalice-or-lose. The deck essentially was every 1-and-2 drop 2-power creature, then Jitte and Crusade.
Game 1, I Chalice @ 1 and eventually Chalice @ 2, then am just able to secure the board before dying.
Game 3 was a simple early Chalice @ 2, then making Elspeth huge while he drops tons of Savannah Lions. I get the ultimate and drop a second Elspeth, and just start doing a conservative smash for the win.
3-0 : 6-3
Round 4: Merfolk
There were 2 Merfolk decks in the field. One 3-0'd, and I get paired down against the 2-1 one which lost the mirror. Interestingly enough, I gave this guy the deck to play, which is missing Jitte and doesn't have a real sideboard yet. (still building some pieces)
There wasn't much to this matchup, as both games I steamrolled on early lockdown into Smokestack locks. I sideboard in Powder Kegs and Pithing Needles for Trinisphere and something else...
4-0 : 8-3
I finish second to the other Merfolk deck due to tiebreakers. Not that I cared, since the entry was free anyways...
@ bradleyjx: Well done on going 4-0-1, and good job on not dropping a set! I've found D&T to be a pain in the ass because of Aether Vial; my opponents always seem to land it turn 1 on the play while my Chalices, 3spheres, and Geddons are sitting in hand, mocking me while I have to get an O-ring or Needle >_<
Some of my thoughts:
Against UGwb Thresh, they have a much more vulernable mana base than the normal Thresh variants. I haven't had too many problems subbing a Plains for a 4th Wasteland because they are definately good against those $300 manabases. Wasting a crucial land is like sinking their teeth into ice cream
I will start to explore Elspeth more now that I see a lot of the things she provides to the table. I had a few games in the Sally tourney where my Magus would be locked with a Tarmogoyf and my Factory(s) would be sitting there doing nothing while my deck just gave me all the land possible :(. It really would have been nice to get a 5/5 flying Factory over those Goyfs (and even more with extra Factories) and speed up the clock. Obviously making Soliders is great to have a Stack at 2 while preserving a neutral state for yourself.
I think Korsakow is right; my friend who plays landstill I"m thinking 4 color maybe? not really sure but he does the humility + mishra's factory "combo" if you can call it that. Elspeth just greatly improves moving smokestack up to 2 counters; I think magus is better in the deck personally because he is devastating against affinity and goblins whereas 1/1 soldier tokens don't seem to do much against a goblin horde or when affinity has a plating on the baord with access to instant attachment (BB untapped)
I don't like elspeth much in the deck for cost reasons also I mean 30 bucks for it? That's more than a mox diamond for crying out loud and really I don't see myself opening elspeth a lot in packs although I had a really bad 3v3 where I cost my friend an elspeth he was pretty mad but I was really stupid and made dumb misplays in it <--sorry for off topic post
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
There seems to be a real big antagonie inbetween Magus of the Tabernacle and Eslpeths token army. Why not just kick him and bring in another Elspeth and some Humility. Ghostly Prison + Humility seems to be enough.
Then Mishras is the biggest dude on the board.
Through playing this deck, one thing that I've experienced is that the opponent usually isn't working with a ton of lands, due to either Wastelands or 'Geddons going off. From this vantage, Magus means that the player rarely has more than 5 creatures in play, and playing Magus forces them to decide between advancing their board position at the cost of their current board position or maintaining their current board position.
Magus + Elspeth isn't synergistic like almost every other part of this deck, but there are two advantages:
- In the aforementioned situation, you have a free route to provide a blocking scheme against multiple large threats that gives you a free sacrifice for the time being.
- It gives Magus (or a spare Factory) a 5-power flying hit.
I don't have anything against Humility, but playing it seems like you would further dilute your deck's pieces in order to do something that only helps you definitively against Dreadnought. If I had infinite money, I'd be playing Dutch Stax, to be honest. (turns the deck into Humility + Moat) But, I don't have the money for Moats, so I stick with my slight variant.
I think Korsakow is right; my friend who plays landstill I"m thinking 4 color maybe? not really sure but he does the humility + mishra's factory "combo" if you can call it that. Elspeth just greatly improves moving smokestack up to 2 counters; I think magus is better in the deck personally because he is devastating against affinity and goblins whereas 1/1 soldier tokens don't seem to do much against a goblin horde or when affinity has a plating on the baord with access to instant attachment (:symb::symb: untapped)
I don't like elspeth much in the deck for cost reasons also I mean 30 bucks for it? That's more than a mox diamond for crying out loud and really I don't see myself opening elspeth a lot in packs although I had a really bad 3v3 where I cost my friend an elspeth he was pretty mad but I was really stupid and made dumb misplays in it <--sorry for off topic post
Magus is better than Elspeth, but nothing much in the deck does a lot against an Ornithopter attached with a Cranial Plating, unless Affinity only has those two out with a land or two.
I tend to play and move towards decks that give me many options to doing what I need to do. Elspeth as a card is one of those cards that just gives me those options. There's only 2 for me, as it's a supplemental card rather than a synergistic card, but if one comes in play at some point, then I can ramp up the strategies that already exist on the board; that could be attacking with 5-power Magus, ramping up Smokestack further with less risk to my board, or just getting more junk on the board.
Many of the games where I've played Elspeth are ones that the game has kind of gone into that stall state: Stax has the board partially clogged, but has no offense, and the other deck is looking to draw into an answer. Elspeth in this situation is the most aggressive card in the deck to draw, and one that forces the opponent to find an out on a much faster clock than what Stax would normally be pushing.
btw: Elspeths are more expensive than Mox Diamonds, but they are also much easier to find, especially if you are in a draft-heavy community. After about a month, I had a foil and 2 regulars through drafting and light trading. It also helps that Elspeth is in the current block; there aren't a ton of people that would trade a Mox Diamond for Standard cards, while it's easy to dump off draft chaffe for an Elspeth.
The Idyllic Tutor kind of acts as the fourth Moat. My first list had Mishra's Factorys in it, but they needed to go. For every game I won because I had a factory, I lost like three where I had Moats and Humilities in my hand but couldn't get the second white mana...
I'm gong to a small legacy turney on sunday with this deck, any last minute suggestions?
I really would push to put the Factorys back in. In the end, the deck has 3 proactive threats total, compared to 7-9 even in the "slow" Armageddon Stax build.
The thing that I usually lose to playing Stax is rarely the fast early game, but instead it's the other deck getting just enough movement through the lock pieces to get a consistent piece of damage going. Both decks have ways to solve it, but I worry that this deck just can't do anything against a smart control opponent. Even with Chalice and Trinisphere, odds are pretty good you're dealing with 4 Force of Will on the other side, and (thanks to CotV locking the other counterspells out) plenty of feed to bring it's cost down to 3 mana.
I guess the matchups are similar in the end, though. You'll have a bit easier time against Affinity, though you'll have occasional greater issues against 4CC and tempo-aggro control that knows where to place the counterspells.
Well, as soon as there is a Moat on the board i need Elspeth anyway since Factories alone won't be able to attack. So running Factories doesn't really increase the number of Threats?
What about running Blinkmoth Nexus?
While it's true Stax generally does not have many active kill cards, I would also consider Smokestack itself a proactive threat. When it hits the table and your opponent doesn't do anything to stop it, they will lose. With Elspeth, you can ramp up to 2 soot counters and your opponent cannot keep up with losing their stuff while you maintain a neutral state.
Remember, you can also use Elspeth's second ability to give one of your guys a big boost plus fly over the Moat.
@ japro: I like Factory better personally because it's bigger, and you don't have to spend extra mana to pump another Factory unlike Nexus. A lone 2/2 will also kill an opponent faster than a 1/1.
Hi people. I am considering building White Stax, and I find myself wondering why not Ghost Quarter? In particular, I am thinking that plenty of decks will have just a few basic lands, and you can quickly make it into a Strip Mine when paired with Crucible. Add that to its cool interaction with Flagstones of Trokair, City of Traitors, and a deck with limited white sources, and I see a niche. My question is whether or not it is likely to come in handy. Here is the way I see it.
Ghost Quarter isn't usually played because you'll either
1. reduce the amount of white mana which is not good at all (meaning stuff gets stuck in your hand and Flagstones gets worse)
2. take something else out instead that's a utility land
In this case you substituted the Factories for Ghost Quarters. I don't like that move. Factory is one of the few kill cards in the deck; it's uncounterable, reliable, gets better as you draw more of them, and has fantastic synergy with Crucible.
I'll play a few Ghost Quarters in my MUD Stax deck though, but I don't see a place for them in White Stax.
Hi people. I am considering building White Stax, and I find myself wondering why not Ghost Quarter? In particular, I am thinking that plenty of decks will have just a few basic lands, and you can quickly make it into a Strip Mine when paired with Crucible. Add that to its cool interaction with Flagstones of Trokair, City of Traitors, and a deck with limited white sources, and I see a niche. My question is whether or not it is likely to come in handy. Here is the way I see it.
These are cards I have. I do not have the other Armageddon card, nor am I going to ever have it. Opinions please?
I'll agree with Chaos on the Ghost Quarter, and add one other point. Where is Ghost Quarter best in this deck? Wasteland is good on it's own, but Ghost Quarter isn't too hot until you add in Crucible and start using it several times, and even then it is only good against certain decks which both are affected by that land loss and don't have many basic lands in their decks. (i.e. pretty much Thresh-style decks) In this deck, though, you'll find that Armageddon handles basic lands in the way that you want Ghost Quarter to, just more efficiently. The counterability of it is usually made up for by how it isn't really any more counterable than any of your other stax pieces.
The other point I want to note here is that you have 5 real win conditions in your deck: 4 Magus and decking. I'm not worried that the deck won't work - there are a couple versions of this deck that I've seen run the same number.
The issue I have with having no other win conditions is that you are making the deck very single-minded in it's purpose. Your games pretty much are won by getting the lock out, and _then_ swinging with a bulky 2/6 for 10 turns. In this environment, [that is starting to adjust for slightly heavier artifact destruction] I've found that there are many times where you need to force through a win with only a partial lock on the board, using the mud that stax board provides to allow you to hit in for lethal while your opponent looks for answers.
Personally, my list is just 6 cards off of yours, just -2 Tabernacle -3 Ghost Quarter -1 Wasteland +4 Mishra's Factory +2 Elspeth. I don't see the use, personally, in Tabernacle as a land in this deck unless you're running the version of Stax with Moat and Humility. (Magus + Armageddon = good times; Tabernacle + Armageddon = less good) Elspeth is just a personal choice to get more win conditions and to have more things in the deck that allow Smokestack to be active at less hurt to yourself.
I would say my best advice is to just play what you have against some people, and see what the least useful cards are in the deck. I think you'll find Tabernacle to be a slight hinderance (though useful) to some synergy, but the Ghost Quarters may be a good choice in your metagame.
Oh, don't knock the Tabernacle lands. I've been using them for over 3 years now, with and without magus, they've always been nice. Against most decks armageddon + tabernacle is just as effective, you just have to make sure you play them in the correct order. I'm currently running:
//Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah
//Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
After having a UGb thresh deck for a while I've decided to make another legacy deck. Seeing as how I also enjoy making my opponents cry, I decided to make White Stax. The main reason for this is, it's fairly cheap, and I get to use Exalted Angel.
I'm basically going to make the deck posted on the first page, but I am curious as to how you would go about fitting 2 Exalted Angel. Would you take out say an O ring and Ghostly Prison? That's all I can think of.
Also has Thorn of Amethyst been thought of at all? Or do we not care about our creatures costing slightly more as well?
Edit: Also Tangle Wire, has anyone found any use for that? Or does the rest of the disruption we have take care of it?
I'm basically going to make the deck posted on the first page, but I am curious as to how you would go about fitting 2 Exalted Angel. Would you take out say an O ring and Ghostly Prison? That's all I can think of.
The list from the first post? Yeah, drop 1 O-Ring and 1 Prison. I run Elspeth over Angel, and those are the two spots I modify.
Also has Thorn of Amethyst been thought of at all? Or do we not care about our creatures costing slightly more as well?
I guess the issue with the card is it doesn't do enough in comparison to what everything else does in the deck. (and Sphere of Resistance would be run over Thorn) It doesn't do much to make things slightly more expensive when you can make things uncastable. Sidenote - Trinisphere usually does the same thing.
Edit: Also Tangle Wire, has anyone found any use for that? Or does the rest of the disruption we have take care of it?
One big thing against this card (as well as Thorn/Sphere) is that it costs 2; the deck tries to lock down the game via Chalices at 1 and 2 and runs no cards at that cost to supplement that. This would just bring a conflict into the deck that doesn't exist right now.
The other thing is, the card just doesn't last long enough. You wouldn't play it early to slow down the opponent, as it stops you from dropping lock pieces. You wouldn't play it later even though you have the tappable permanents, because it just doesn't last long enough.
Yeah I don't see a reason for replacing o-ring with tangle wire or ghostly prison which are both excellent 3 drops despite the W in their cost
Is there any reason NOT to run 4 flagstones of trokair in the deck? The Wes I really think you should cut 1 plains for a flagstones the card is so synergystic with white stax. It can be sacked via legend rule true but if you're playing 2 flagstones in a row opening with white stax chances are you kept a bad hand unless you had a mox diamond also...statistically you have a good chance of seeing a city/tomb in your opener or on your first or second draws seeing as how you run 8 2 mana lands
Also the best 2 drop in the deck is defense grid hands down since you don't have to combat annoying counterspells while you lay your lock pieces down. I would run defense grid over thorn of amethyst anyday despite it's different purpose. Although it does stop ANT from playing mystical tutor at the end of your turn somewhat (they can mystical tutor in response to your casting it.)
Stax doesn't always establish a lock otherwise everyone would be playing stax and it would be banned.
Just always take GY hate you're due to run into some GY dependant deck in a tournament scene that is developed even undeveloped (think reanimator).
While ichorid is a good matchup for this deck you do have some clutter in the form of o-rings which are pretty useless against them (a grave-troll SHOULDN'T matter if you make them sack it via smokestack)and o-ring is better replaced with a two two split of crypt/relic
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
(as well as Thorn/Sphere) is that it costs 2; the deck tries to lock down the game via Chalices at 1 and 2 and runs no cards at that cost to supplement that. This would just bring a conflict into the deck that doesn't exist right now.
The other thing is, the card just doesn't last long enough. You wouldn't play it early to slow down the opponent, as it stops you from dropping lock pieces. You wouldn't play it later even though you have the tappable permanents, because it just doesn't last long enough.
Tangle Wire costs 3. also, you can tap down those chalices, the wire itself, and a smokestack, netting almost no tempo loss, while entirely pillaging your opponent. it's quite amazing, and then it either taps to other wires, or sacs to smokestack. tangle wire is quite fine.
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T2: Solar Flare
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
2009 NY States Top 8, 2010 NY States 2nd, 2011 NY States 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8
Affinity is a good matchup already and damping field seems to be a winmore card when we already have this little artifact that costs 3 called trinisphere which completely owns affinity if you get it down quick enough. And we also have ghostly prison against them which stalls them long enough to enable us to get a lock down on the affinity player via smokestack or we could set up a wastelock or landing 2 ghostly prisons is a backbreaker for them.
Yeah in short we don't need damping field against affinity
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
what about taking Damping Field against affinity and so? :O?
Damping Field is an extremely pathetic hoser. See its cousin Imi Statue and ask how good he was at attempting to be an Affinity hoser when the deck tyrannized Standard.
Why Damping Field when there is Null Rod? It only affects the moxen on our side, but almost everything on their side (including Lands). But since they are not really helpful in other matchups, running them seems a bit paranoid.
What is a good hoser for someone running painter combo? stp? obv chalice at 1 or 2 is formidable, but they usually have outs to that...what do you think?
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T2: Solar Flare
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
2009 NY States Top 8, 2010 NY States 2nd, 2011 NY States 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8
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Runed Halo is good stuff, but I like O-ring better because of the fact that it costs only one white mana making it so much easier to cast. I can get white pretty decently in the deck, but getting double white really stretches things.
Current List:
04 Ancient Tomb
04 City of Traitors
04 Flagstones of Trokair
04 Mishra's Factory
03 Wasteland
04 Armageddon
04 Chalice of the Void
04 Crucible of Worlds
02 Elspeth, Knight Errant
03 Ghostly Prison
04 Magus of the Tabernacle
04 Mox Diamond
03 Oblivion Ring
04 Smokestack
04 Trinisphere
03 Ethersworn Canonist
01 Ghostly Prison
03 Karmic Justice
01 Oblivion Ring
03 Pithing Needle
04 Powder Keg
The deck today was 4-0-1, beating UGwb Thresh, Dreadstill, Death/Taxes, and 1-Land Belcher.
I actually have a bit of a bad opinion of the 4C Thresh matchup, compared to the OP, but this turned into a slow match after I learned my opponent netdecked and didn't really spend much time in testing. I don't think there was anything wrong done in this match by him (that would make the match easier), but both games were Smokestack rolling into a slow lock. (SB: -4 CotV, -1 Trinisphere, +3 Pithing, +1 Ghostly, +1 Oblivion Ring)
Dreadstill came down to me being able to clog the board just quick enough every game. One game involved 2 Magus out + Ghostly Prison to just clog up the board for a while. This matchup also brings up what I think is the most underestimated weakness of running Elspeth, in that it provides an alternate route for Tarmogoyf to get larger than Magus. (SB: can't honestly remember)
Death/Taxes was just a trio of odd matches, game 1 I didn't need to deal with any of the synergy of the deck (but he had enough power to drill through), and games 2/3 the synergy was mostly broken by Pithing Needles. (SB: -4 CotV, -4 Trinisphere, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Ghostly, +1 Oblivion Ring, +3 Powder Keg)
The Belcher matchup was pretty straightforward. Game 1 he only EtW for 6; I get Ghostly Prison out turn 2 and take my time clogging the board. (SB: -4 Armageddon, -03 Oblivion Ring, -04 Smokestack, +3 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Ghostly Prison, +4 Powder Keg, +3 Pithing Needle) Game 2 he plays and wins on turn 1. Game 3 I keep a hand that can drop turn 1 Powder Keg, turn 2 Ghostly Prison and risk that he only has the EtW kill. I Turn-1 the Powder Keg, and his hand is exactly right to Shattering Spree Powder Keg and EtW, but one short to hit my Mox Diamond that enables the Ghostly Prison. I draw and drop Chalice @ 0 that second turn off the draw, and draw into a Magus to seal the game.
EDIT 07/21/09: I'm just updating this with a recent event, going 4-0, making this deck so far 16-0-1 in sanctioned matches since building it.
Changes:
SB:
-3 Ethersworn Canonist
-3 Karmic Justice
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Pithing Needle
+4 Defense Grid
+2 Circle of Protection: Red
Round 1: Rock
I see the pairings for round 1 and go "oh crap". Mostly because this is a relatively casual setting and I get paired against something pretty good.
Game 1 I get obliterated with a slow hand and an opponent who launches turn 2+3 Putrid Leech then Rancor, which I can only slow down through Oblivion Ring.
SB: +4 Pithing Needle, +1 Ghostly Prison, [can't remember the side out]
Game 2, the deck works, I lock his Leech pumps early and am able to get the game into a Smokestack lock.
Game 3, I get Chalice @ 1 out and Chalice @ 2 out early. I then take the risk and Chalice @ 3 to lock out Vindicate/Pulse/Deed (didn't know the distribution he was running), and then I make the mistake of assuming and drop Chalice @ 4, pegging the game on Factories. I get there on the turn he casts the Indrik Stomphowler I didn't see on the Chalice @ 3; at least that opens up Oblivion Ring for the final hit
1-0 : 2-1
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1, easy win after a fast Trinisphere and rolling into Wasteland/Crucible pseudo-lock, smashing with Factory for 20 before 3 Citadels arrive.
SB: +4 Pithing Needle, +4 Powder Keg, +1 Ghostly Prison, -4 Armageddon, -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Crucible of Worlds
Game 2 was a case of Stax beating itself. I get a turn-1 Powder Keg into a turn-2 Powder Keg + Pithing Needle, while the opponent is mana flooded. He still gets enough beef that the 3 Factories I drew are mostly trading fodder while I setup a Smokestack @ 1 for a good number of turns. I proceed to draw 3 Mox Diamonds in a row and then uncastable big things, while my opponent's manaflood allows him to continuously have non-relevant things to sac to Smokestack. I finally blow the Smokestack at 2 lands, and don't see another land to start dropping the hand of juice I locked myself out of.
Game 3 was like game 1, an early Trinisphere into a lock; this time Elspeth, Crucible, and Smokestack setup the hard lock.
2-0 : 4-2
Round 3: Soldiers
I saw this deck from earlier, and I thought this was really a bad matchup, as it turned into Chalice-or-lose. The deck essentially was every 1-and-2 drop 2-power creature, then Jitte and Crusade.
Game 1, I Chalice @ 1 and eventually Chalice @ 2, then am just able to secure the board before dying.
SB: -4 Armageddon, [can't remember the rest], +4 Powder Keg, +4 Pithing Needle, +1 Ghostly Prison
Game 2, the early rush comes and I can't stop it.
Game 3 was a simple early Chalice @ 2, then making Elspeth huge while he drops tons of Savannah Lions. I get the ultimate and drop a second Elspeth, and just start doing a conservative smash for the win.
3-0 : 6-3
Round 4: Merfolk
There were 2 Merfolk decks in the field. One 3-0'd, and I get paired down against the 2-1 one which lost the mirror. Interestingly enough, I gave this guy the deck to play, which is missing Jitte and doesn't have a real sideboard yet. (still building some pieces)
There wasn't much to this matchup, as both games I steamrolled on early lockdown into Smokestack locks. I sideboard in Powder Kegs and Pithing Needles for Trinisphere and something else...
4-0 : 8-3
I finish second to the other Merfolk deck due to tiebreakers. Not that I cared, since the entry was free anyways...
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Some of my thoughts:
Against UGwb Thresh, they have a much more vulernable mana base than the normal Thresh variants. I haven't had too many problems subbing a Plains for a 4th Wasteland because they are definately good against those $300 manabases. Wasting a crucial land is like sinking their teeth into ice cream
I will start to explore Elspeth more now that I see a lot of the things she provides to the table. I had a few games in the Sally tourney where my Magus would be locked with a Tarmogoyf and my Factory(s) would be sitting there doing nothing while my deck just gave me all the land possible :(. It really would have been nice to get a 5/5 flying Factory over those Goyfs (and even more with extra Factories) and speed up the clock. Obviously making Soliders is great to have a Stack at 2 while preserving a neutral state for yourself.
I don't like elspeth much in the deck for cost reasons also I mean 30 bucks for it? That's more than a mox diamond for crying out loud and really I don't see myself opening elspeth a lot in packs although I had a really bad 3v3 where I cost my friend an elspeth he was pretty mad but I was really stupid and made dumb misplays in it <--sorry for off topic post
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Through playing this deck, one thing that I've experienced is that the opponent usually isn't working with a ton of lands, due to either Wastelands or 'Geddons going off. From this vantage, Magus means that the player rarely has more than 5 creatures in play, and playing Magus forces them to decide between advancing their board position at the cost of their current board position or maintaining their current board position.
Magus + Elspeth isn't synergistic like almost every other part of this deck, but there are two advantages:
- In the aforementioned situation, you have a free route to provide a blocking scheme against multiple large threats that gives you a free sacrifice for the time being.
- It gives Magus (or a spare Factory) a 5-power flying hit.
I don't have anything against Humility, but playing it seems like you would further dilute your deck's pieces in order to do something that only helps you definitively against Dreadnought. If I had infinite money, I'd be playing Dutch Stax, to be honest. (turns the deck into Humility + Moat) But, I don't have the money for Moats, so I stick with my slight variant.
Magus is better than Elspeth, but nothing much in the deck does a lot against an Ornithopter attached with a Cranial Plating, unless Affinity only has those two out with a land or two.
I tend to play and move towards decks that give me many options to doing what I need to do. Elspeth as a card is one of those cards that just gives me those options. There's only 2 for me, as it's a supplemental card rather than a synergistic card, but if one comes in play at some point, then I can ramp up the strategies that already exist on the board; that could be attacking with 5-power Magus, ramping up Smokestack further with less risk to my board, or just getting more junk on the board.
Many of the games where I've played Elspeth are ones that the game has kind of gone into that stall state: Stax has the board partially clogged, but has no offense, and the other deck is looking to draw into an answer. Elspeth in this situation is the most aggressive card in the deck to draw, and one that forces the opponent to find an out on a much faster clock than what Stax would normally be pushing.
btw: Elspeths are more expensive than Mox Diamonds, but they are also much easier to find, especially if you are in a draft-heavy community. After about a month, I had a foil and 2 regulars through drafting and light trading. It also helps that Elspeth is in the current block; there aren't a ton of people that would trade a Mox Diamond for Standard cards, while it's easy to dump off draft chaffe for an Elspeth.
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At the moment i'm trying to do exactly that.
The Deck looks like this right now:
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lockpieces
3 Moat
4 Humility
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
Other Stuff
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Idyllic Tutor
3 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
1 Trinisphere
1 Armageddon
1 oblivion Ring
3 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
3 Suppression Field
3 Wrath of God
I'm gong to a small legacy turney on sunday with this deck, any last minute suggestions?
The thing that I usually lose to playing Stax is rarely the fast early game, but instead it's the other deck getting just enough movement through the lock pieces to get a consistent piece of damage going. Both decks have ways to solve it, but I worry that this deck just can't do anything against a smart control opponent. Even with Chalice and Trinisphere, odds are pretty good you're dealing with 4 Force of Will on the other side, and (thanks to CotV locking the other counterspells out) plenty of feed to bring it's cost down to 3 mana.
I guess the matchups are similar in the end, though. You'll have a bit easier time against Affinity, though you'll have occasional greater issues against 4CC and tempo-aggro control that knows where to place the counterspells.
I just really don't like 3 proactive threats.
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What about running Blinkmoth Nexus?
Remember, you can also use Elspeth's second ability to give one of your guys a big boost plus fly over the Moat.
@ japro: I like Factory better personally because it's bigger, and you don't have to spend extra mana to pump another Factory unlike Nexus. A lone 2/2 will also kill an opponent faster than a 1/1.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Oblivion Ring
1. reduce the amount of white mana which is not good at all (meaning stuff gets stuck in your hand and Flagstones gets worse)
2. take something else out instead that's a utility land
In this case you substituted the Factories for Ghost Quarters. I don't like that move. Factory is one of the few kill cards in the deck; it's uncounterable, reliable, gets better as you draw more of them, and has fantastic synergy with Crucible.
I'll play a few Ghost Quarters in my MUD Stax deck though, but I don't see a place for them in White Stax.
I'll agree with Chaos on the Ghost Quarter, and add one other point. Where is Ghost Quarter best in this deck? Wasteland is good on it's own, but Ghost Quarter isn't too hot until you add in Crucible and start using it several times, and even then it is only good against certain decks which both are affected by that land loss and don't have many basic lands in their decks. (i.e. pretty much Thresh-style decks) In this deck, though, you'll find that Armageddon handles basic lands in the way that you want Ghost Quarter to, just more efficiently. The counterability of it is usually made up for by how it isn't really any more counterable than any of your other stax pieces.
The other point I want to note here is that you have 5 real win conditions in your deck: 4 Magus and decking. I'm not worried that the deck won't work - there are a couple versions of this deck that I've seen run the same number.
The issue I have with having no other win conditions is that you are making the deck very single-minded in it's purpose. Your games pretty much are won by getting the lock out, and _then_ swinging with a bulky 2/6 for 10 turns. In this environment, [that is starting to adjust for slightly heavier artifact destruction] I've found that there are many times where you need to force through a win with only a partial lock on the board, using the mud that stax board provides to allow you to hit in for lethal while your opponent looks for answers.
Personally, my list is just 6 cards off of yours, just -2 Tabernacle -3 Ghost Quarter -1 Wasteland +4 Mishra's Factory +2 Elspeth. I don't see the use, personally, in Tabernacle as a land in this deck unless you're running the version of Stax with Moat and Humility. (Magus + Armageddon = good times; Tabernacle + Armageddon = less good) Elspeth is just a personal choice to get more win conditions and to have more things in the deck that allow Smokestack to be active at less hurt to yourself.
I would say my best advice is to just play what you have against some people, and see what the least useful cards are in the deck. I think you'll find Tabernacle to be a slight hinderance (though useful) to some synergy, but the Ghost Quarters may be a good choice in your metagame.
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//Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah
//Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
Its been good to me so far.
I'm basically going to make the deck posted on the first page, but I am curious as to how you would go about fitting 2 Exalted Angel. Would you take out say an O ring and Ghostly Prison? That's all I can think of.
Also has Thorn of Amethyst been thought of at all? Or do we not care about our creatures costing slightly more as well?
Edit: Also Tangle Wire, has anyone found any use for that? Or does the rest of the disruption we have take care of it?
tangle wire is just overkilled, no reason to use it when your other stuffs pretty much take care of everything.
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The list from the first post? Yeah, drop 1 O-Ring and 1 Prison. I run Elspeth over Angel, and those are the two spots I modify.
I guess the issue with the card is it doesn't do enough in comparison to what everything else does in the deck. (and Sphere of Resistance would be run over Thorn) It doesn't do much to make things slightly more expensive when you can make things uncastable. Sidenote - Trinisphere usually does the same thing.
One big thing against this card (as well as Thorn/Sphere) is that it costs 2; the deck tries to lock down the game via Chalices at 1 and 2 and runs no cards at that cost to supplement that. This would just bring a conflict into the deck that doesn't exist right now.
The other thing is, the card just doesn't last long enough. You wouldn't play it early to slow down the opponent, as it stops you from dropping lock pieces. You wouldn't play it later even though you have the tappable permanents, because it just doesn't last long enough.
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Is there any reason NOT to run 4 flagstones of trokair in the deck? The Wes I really think you should cut 1 plains for a flagstones the card is so synergystic with white stax. It can be sacked via legend rule true but if you're playing 2 flagstones in a row opening with white stax chances are you kept a bad hand unless you had a mox diamond also...statistically you have a good chance of seeing a city/tomb in your opener or on your first or second draws seeing as how you run 8 2 mana lands
Also the best 2 drop in the deck is defense grid hands down since you don't have to combat annoying counterspells while you lay your lock pieces down. I would run defense grid over thorn of amethyst anyday despite it's different purpose. Although it does stop ANT from playing mystical tutor at the end of your turn somewhat (they can mystical tutor in response to your casting it.)
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Just always take GY hate you're due to run into some GY dependant deck in a tournament scene that is developed even undeveloped (think reanimator).
While ichorid is a good matchup for this deck you do have some clutter in the form of o-rings which are pretty useless against them (a grave-troll SHOULDN'T matter if you make them sack it via smokestack)and o-ring is better replaced with a two two split of crypt/relic
Currently Playing:
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Tangle Wire costs 3. also, you can tap down those chalices, the wire itself, and a smokestack, netting almost no tempo loss, while entirely pillaging your opponent. it's quite amazing, and then it either taps to other wires, or sacs to smokestack. tangle wire is quite fine.
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8
Yeah in short we don't need damping field against affinity
Currently Playing:
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Damping Field is an extremely pathetic hoser. See its cousin Imi Statue and ask how good he was at attempting to be an Affinity hoser when the deck tyrannized Standard.
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8