This is just an attempt to make a rational UGW aggro-control deck that for whatever reason doesn't include Tarmogoyf. It's not optimal for Legacy because it's missing the best 2 drop in the format but it's a best effort under those constraints. It does not include the old green 2 drops, which are outdated and would just be severely underpowered, but instead uses the next best 2 drop Qasali Pridemage and then compensates by adding additional 3cc threats.
The basic idea is to play a typical blue aggro-control denial/disruption plan in game 1 then decide whether or not to make the deck CounterTop for game 2 or just tune in efficient hate and continue the game 1 plan. Specific card choices are:
Qasali Pridemage because there are no better creature 2 drops in the absence of Goyf and I don't think the deck can afford to replace Goyf with anything but the next best option. Stifle because it handles so many things that infest the Legacy metagame well and it can be a back-breaker if opponents don't know you have it. Terravore because it works so well with Wasteland - growing by 2 every time you use one and because it tramples to resolve standoffs. Spell Snare specifically because I'm not playing Goyf and I need all the protection I can get against him. Sensei's Divining Top because it's one of the most powerful cards in Legacy even in the absence of Counterbalance and it enables the sideboard transformation to CounterTop when necessary, it also prevents the need for Ponder so the deck can play no sorceries to keep Goyf smaller at times. Engineered Explosives at the 3 level because EE@2 is going to be necessary for the deck to do well in game 1 a lot of the time given the absence of Goyf. 8 fetchlands because they work so well with so many cards in the deck including Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top, to use less than 8 would remove some of the power in the deck.
You really ought to run Noble Hierarch mana-ramping with exalted is good.
Yeah you can make that argument and I'd agree somewhat. There really isn't a lot to ramp into though. Terravore and KotR aren't going to be big enough on turn 2 to justify landing them a turn early at the expense of some other disruption/removal.
I'd probably go with an Armageddon based idea if I put Hierarchs in a deck with no goyf.
It's got Goyf. If you take the QPM out and replace with Goyf the decks look like they are just a few cards apart. Do you think New Horizons would work without Goyf? What would replace Goyf as the 2 drop if it was not available?
It's got Goyf. If you take the QPM out and replace with Goyf the decks look like they are just a few cards apart. Do you think New Horizons would work without Goyf? What would replace Goyf as the 2 drop if it was not available?
QPM is fine, if you want a temp, you can always use Werebear. 23 lands, 8 fetches + 8 cantrips + 4 Canopy/4 Wasteland = fast threshold.
I feel like Vinelasher Kudzu could work wonders in this deck as well as fit that empty Goyf slot. If you are maximizing KotR, it is amazing.
Is Spell Snare really that good? I feel like that could be an easy cut, with 4 FoW's and 4 Daze. Also I think SDT should be a 2 of. You are already running 4 Brainstorm, with 3 Tops you are just searching your library too often for too few real answer cards. The deck is also incredibly reactive.
I don't like Noble Hierarch in this deck. It's not enabling Natural Order/Progenitus and there's no Survival of the Fittest to feed it too and there are no bombs waiting to happen on turn 2 or 3 off of it. Too often it's going to be the last thing you want to topdeck in the midgame and if you have it in hand at the start there'll be nothing alongside it to justify the tempo of playing it. If it was a 1/1 and could block Goblin Lackey it might get over the top but as it is it's just too weak a card in the overall synergy of the deck. If Tarmogoyf was here then it would have the ability to break early goyf stalemates but goyf is not in the deck.
I think Spell Snare is absolutely necessary in the absence of goyf because there's no creature in the deck that can really stand up to goyf early if the opponent is playing Threshold or Tempo or something similar and filling up his yard with lots of different types. It also handles Counterbalance, Price of Progress and Survival of the Fittest, all 4 cards are killers against this deck.
RVZ, you have so many particularly expensive cards in that deck. You kinda have to ask yourself about the budget motivation. If you are going to spend money on the other stuff, you are probably better off with Goyfs.
RVZ, you have so many particularly expensive cards in that deck. You kinda have to ask yourself about the budget motivation. If you are going to spend money on the other stuff, you are probably better off with Goyfs.
Finn's exactly right. If a mana-base of duals and fetches and Wastelands is in your future, plus Knight of the Reliquary and Engineered Explosives and Force of Will, you may as well submerge yourself in the cost of competitive play with a set of Tarmogoyfs. It won't increase the cost of your deck by more than 20%.
I only created the list in response to somebody asking for a budget replacement for Tarmogoyf specifically in blue/green in another thread. I don't think it's a particularly good list but I do think it's about as good as you can get in this archetype without goyf.
I completely agree that anybody who has all the other cards probably should just bite the bullet and buy goyfs. Unfortunately that is becoming a very expensive proposition and becaue goyf is not on the reserved list it is a scary proposition to plunk down $300 for a set of them.
BTW, not that I think goyf should be banned, because I don't, but the cost of playing Legacy would go down a bit if he was. Well, assuming that the next best options didn't immediately begin to skyrocket in price. I could see Knight of the Reliquary at $40 pretty quickly after goyf was banned.
I don't like Noble Hierarch in this deck. It's not enabling Natural Order/Progenitus and there's no Survival of the Fittest to feed it too and there are no bombs waiting to happen on turn 2 or 3 off of it. Too often it's going to be the last thing you want to topdeck in the midgame and if you have it in hand at the start there'll be nothing alongside it to justify the tempo of playing it. If it was a 1/1 and could block Goblin Lackey it might get over the top but as it is it's just too weak a card in the overall synergy of the deck. If Tarmogoyf was here then it would have the ability to break early goyf stalemates but goyf is not in the deck.
I think Spell Snare is absolutely necessary in the absence of goyf because there's no creature in the deck that can really stand up to goyf early if the opponent is playing Threshold or Tempo or something similar and filling up his yard with lots of different types. It also handles Counterbalance, Price of Progress and Survival of the Fittest, all 4 cards are killers against this deck.
I get that you don't like Hierarch in this deck. But here is why it is important. It can get you to your 3 drops on turn 2 and help you face Goyf should he come out early. Also any format that plays 4x Wasteland requires for mana defense and Hierarch performs that admirably.
As for Spell Snare...Sure I can see the usefulness, but you are running 8 other dedicated counterspells. Why force 11 counterspells and 4 Stifle's while only running 8 answers (4 KotR and 4 Terravore). The deck you posted for help or critique or advice, etc needed a lot of work and you seem unwilling to accept any of the answers that can help it.
I get that you don't like Hierarch in this deck. But here is why it is important. It can get you to your 3 drops on turn 2 and help you face Goyf should he come out early. Also any format that plays 4x Wasteland requires for mana defense and Hierarch performs that admirably.
As for Spell Snare...Sure I can see the usefulness, but you are running 8 other dedicated counterspells. Why force 11 counterspells and 4 Stifle's while only running 8 answers (4 KotR and 4 Terravore). The deck you posted for help or critique or advice, etc needed a lot of work and you seem unwilling to accept any of the answers that can help it.
The 3 drops in the deck aren't really worth promoting on turn 2. I think that's my basic argument against Noble Hierarch. It's not like he's helping land anything important in the opening hand, particularly since Counterbalance is not in the main deck mix and the two creatures he helps land would rather come down naturally a turn later anyway, the Terravores actually wanting to land more like turn 4. So you're not getting good acceleration out of him and then he's a weak top deck in the mid game. As to hierarch helping you face down goyf, how exactly does he do that? He has no defensive benefit except as a chump blocker and he doesn't even add onto another creature's defensive damage to kill an attacker. If he was a 1/1 and could stand on his own against a 1 toughness attacker or give another blocker an additional point of damage he'd be a better choice but he has the defensive value of a Birds of Paradise.
If the deck was running Counterbalance or Survival of the Fittest then hierarch becomes a little bit more interesting. If it's running Natural Order then he becomes an obvious include.
It's not that I'm not willing to take suggestions but the creatures in the list you posted are weak as a group and substituting subpar choices like Vinelasher Kudzu for blue control dilutes the overall flow of play. There's not enough control to make that work well and overall there are 6 creatures that are bad topdecks in the mid game.
If you put 15 creatures into a Legacy deck these days alongside 8+ counters all of those creatures had better be fairly high impact. Having a few creatures that require other components to be in play or at hand to be valuable is a good way to lose the critical early game tempo war. The deck would be better with Rhox War Monk if you really wanted to go with hierarchs, because he's a creature worth accelerating into on turn 2 or using a hierarch to land on turn 3 while playing around Daze. I'd rather not go with hierarchs and RWM because I see the deck being weaker in the absence of Tarmogoyf if it tries to substitute significant creature play for him. You'll never make up the difference in that scenario because you're not playing the best creature in Legacy.
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
Counters
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
Selection
4x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Removal
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Wasteland
3x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Counterbalance
3x Krosan Grip
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Pithing Needle
The basic idea is to play a typical blue aggro-control denial/disruption plan in game 1 then decide whether or not to make the deck CounterTop for game 2 or just tune in efficient hate and continue the game 1 plan. Specific card choices are:
Qasali Pridemage because there are no better creature 2 drops in the absence of Goyf and I don't think the deck can afford to replace Goyf with anything but the next best option. Stifle because it handles so many things that infest the Legacy metagame well and it can be a back-breaker if opponents don't know you have it. Terravore because it works so well with Wasteland - growing by 2 every time you use one and because it tramples to resolve standoffs. Spell Snare specifically because I'm not playing Goyf and I need all the protection I can get against him. Sensei's Divining Top because it's one of the most powerful cards in Legacy even in the absence of Counterbalance and it enables the sideboard transformation to CounterTop when necessary, it also prevents the need for Ponder so the deck can play no sorceries to keep Goyf smaller at times. Engineered Explosives at the 3 level because EE@2 is going to be necessary for the deck to do well in game 1 a lot of the time given the absence of Goyf. 8 fetchlands because they work so well with so many cards in the deck including Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top, to use less than 8 would remove some of the power in the deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
Yeah you can make that argument and I'd agree somewhat. There really isn't a lot to ramp into though. Terravore and KotR aren't going to be big enough on turn 2 to justify landing them a turn early at the expense of some other disruption/removal.
I'd probably go with an Armageddon based idea if I put Hierarchs in a deck with no goyf.
It's got Goyf. If you take the QPM out and replace with Goyf the decks look like they are just a few cards apart. Do you think New Horizons would work without Goyf? What would replace Goyf as the 2 drop if it was not available?
QPM is fine, if you want a temp, you can always use Werebear. 23 lands, 8 fetches + 8 cantrips + 4 Canopy/4 Wasteland = fast threshold.
Is Spell Snare really that good? I feel like that could be an easy cut, with 4 FoW's and 4 Daze. Also I think SDT should be a 2 of. You are already running 4 Brainstorm, with 3 Tops you are just searching your library too often for too few real answer cards. The deck is also incredibly reactive.
I would go with
4 Pridemage
3 KotR
2 Terravore
2 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Wasteland
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
I think Spell Snare is absolutely necessary in the absence of goyf because there's no creature in the deck that can really stand up to goyf early if the opponent is playing Threshold or Tempo or something similar and filling up his yard with lots of different types. It also handles Counterbalance, Price of Progress and Survival of the Fittest, all 4 cards are killers against this deck.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Finn's exactly right. If a mana-base of duals and fetches and Wastelands is in your future, plus Knight of the Reliquary and Engineered Explosives and Force of Will, you may as well submerge yourself in the cost of competitive play with a set of Tarmogoyfs. It won't increase the cost of your deck by more than 20%.
That said, I second that Vinelasher Kadzu would be superb.
I completely agree that anybody who has all the other cards probably should just bite the bullet and buy goyfs. Unfortunately that is becoming a very expensive proposition and becaue goyf is not on the reserved list it is a scary proposition to plunk down $300 for a set of them.
BTW, not that I think goyf should be banned, because I don't, but the cost of playing Legacy would go down a bit if he was. Well, assuming that the next best options didn't immediately begin to skyrocket in price. I could see Knight of the Reliquary at $40 pretty quickly after goyf was banned.
I get that you don't like Hierarch in this deck. But here is why it is important. It can get you to your 3 drops on turn 2 and help you face Goyf should he come out early. Also any format that plays 4x Wasteland requires for mana defense and Hierarch performs that admirably.
As for Spell Snare...Sure I can see the usefulness, but you are running 8 other dedicated counterspells. Why force 11 counterspells and 4 Stifle's while only running 8 answers (4 KotR and 4 Terravore). The deck you posted for help or critique or advice, etc needed a lot of work and you seem unwilling to accept any of the answers that can help it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
The 3 drops in the deck aren't really worth promoting on turn 2. I think that's my basic argument against Noble Hierarch. It's not like he's helping land anything important in the opening hand, particularly since Counterbalance is not in the main deck mix and the two creatures he helps land would rather come down naturally a turn later anyway, the Terravores actually wanting to land more like turn 4. So you're not getting good acceleration out of him and then he's a weak top deck in the mid game. As to hierarch helping you face down goyf, how exactly does he do that? He has no defensive benefit except as a chump blocker and he doesn't even add onto another creature's defensive damage to kill an attacker. If he was a 1/1 and could stand on his own against a 1 toughness attacker or give another blocker an additional point of damage he'd be a better choice but he has the defensive value of a Birds of Paradise.
If the deck was running Counterbalance or Survival of the Fittest then hierarch becomes a little bit more interesting. If it's running Natural Order then he becomes an obvious include.
It's not that I'm not willing to take suggestions but the creatures in the list you posted are weak as a group and substituting subpar choices like Vinelasher Kudzu for blue control dilutes the overall flow of play. There's not enough control to make that work well and overall there are 6 creatures that are bad topdecks in the mid game.
If you put 15 creatures into a Legacy deck these days alongside 8+ counters all of those creatures had better be fairly high impact. Having a few creatures that require other components to be in play or at hand to be valuable is a good way to lose the critical early game tempo war. The deck would be better with Rhox War Monk if you really wanted to go with hierarchs, because he's a creature worth accelerating into on turn 2 or using a hierarch to land on turn 3 while playing around Daze. I'd rather not go with hierarchs and RWM because I see the deck being weaker in the absence of Tarmogoyf if it tries to substitute significant creature play for him. You'll never make up the difference in that scenario because you're not playing the best creature in Legacy.
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