This is very interesting I would hate to see all your plans fall to a single wasteland. If the isle didnt come into play tapped that would change everything.
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currently playing: LEGACY loam/depthsBG Sneak showUR LED DredgeUBR ReanimatorUB landsBURG EDH DoranWBG JhoiraUR
I have seen the Doomsday Eldrazi type deck before. However almost universally I think they run some sort of storm combo as a back up win condition so that they do not get blown out should their combo fail to win in time or in case it gets disrupted somehow.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
@KIN CORN KARN - This is THE problem i've got with (to tell the truth this, pithing needle and howling mine). I'd even considered running Amulet of Vigor because of the CITP problem. Any idea of what i should do about it?
@DalkonClewdin - What kind of Storm combo he used?
@DalkonClewdin - What kind of Storm combo he used?
it was a slower combo than Ad Nauseam due to the fact that if one drew Emrakul off the top of an Ad Nauseam Trigger that would probably kill you. But it was a Tendrils Combo (similar to the original Tendrils Combo prior to Ad Nauseam's printing).
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
wow, now I remember where I first heard about the Doomsday + Shelldock into Emrakul combo... Emidln himself told me about it along with showing me the list he was working on... no wonder I mentioned the storm combo possibilities.
Thanks Vacrix for showing the list (I had completely forgotten what the list looked like in all honesty).
Yes, if Emidln is testing the list, then it is bound to be really good. I won't argue that it is going to be the BEST deck in the format, but it will be VERY good.
The problem with Emrakul and Shelldock Island is that it in theory gives your opponent 2 turns with which to find an answer (the turn that Shelldock is played, and the turn after Emrakul attacks seeing as how she only does 15 damage leaving your opponent with 5 life).
That is two chances to stop you from winning, two possible answers. If your opponent finds an answer to her, you will NEED a back up win condition, and that is what Emidln's list has in abundance with the access to the Tendril's of Agony. In truth it only REALLY needs a storm count of 3 to be able to win assuming Emrakul has already attacked for 15 damage
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
just a nooby question: how does tendrils works with Doomsday?
that, I never quite figured out... so you would have to ask Emidln. I will see if I can get him to post in this thread the next time I speak to him so he can explain it for you. Hopefully he is online sooner rather than later.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
that, I never quite figured out... so you would have to ask Emidln. I will see if I can get him to post in this thread the next time I speak to him so he can explain it for you. Hopefully he is online sooner rather than later.
Doomsday tendrils is literally the most difficult thing to play right in legacy:
I won't take the time to explain it too much, and I'm sure that's not up to date, but it'll give you an idea of where to start.
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
@rsaunder - I still don't got how does this works.
Okay, a detailed example of the most basic stack:
You have SDT in play and access to 2U after casting doomsday (2UBBB total). You've probably played some spells to do that.
Stack:
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Tendrils
Tap top to draw meditate, meditate into LED, LED, Petal, SDT. Use petal to play the SDT, drop both LED's and crack them for BBBBBB. Tap top to draw your tendrils, tendrils for 6+doomsday+whatever you cast to ramp up mana or cantrip into the kill.
There are lots of stacks involving IGG returning brainstorm and LED's that take less mana and ramp up storm way faster. Generally you want a cantrip to get into the pile the turn you cast DDay and win, because passing the turn sucks. One good pass the turn pile goes:
1U available the turn after you cast DDay, 1 random card in hand, and one of: LED, Ponder, SDT, Brainstorm, IGG, or TOA (the pile will change accordingly, but you'll get the idea) :
(assuming the card in hand was SDT, remember your other random card! important for brainstorms)
Brainstorm
LED
LED
IGG
TOA
Hint: This wins turn 2 (assuming a turn 1 DDay) and you should not need to reorder with SDT. It'll hit 10 storm.
EDIT: If you have ponder in hand it's only good for 9 storm. Leave that part out when you're playing with that pile.
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Rev614: "The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
This is a deck I've been working on for awhile now. It's a turn 3 UB combo deck with a strong manabase, the best manipulation in the game, and the ability to kill on turn 1 and 2. It plays gameplans that are assembled in the same fashion for very little mana but are hated on in drastically different ways.
The two gameplans:
(A) Cheat Emrakul (or another relevant fatty) into Play
(B) Play a lethal Tendrils of Agony
You have two ways to accomplish (A):
(1) Doomsday into Shelldock Isle
(2) Show and Tell
(B) is almost always accomplished with Doomsday. Doomsday has a couple major Doomsday piles (with hundreds of variations) and a many situational piles. It's a mass tutor that can be used, if you know your deck very well, to pull yourself out of extremely bad situations and manufacture wins out of thin air.
Quickly, I'll go over the main doomsday storm piles:
"the Meditate pile"
Cost: 2U+BBB+CantripMana
Results: min of 7 spells (counting from Doomsday onward)
Meditate
Lotus Petal/Deathmark/Sensei's Divining Top#2
Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
If your draw spell is Brainstorm or Ponder, you need Dark Rituals instead of Lion's Eye Diamonds and the total cost is 2UUBBB. If you use Deathmark in this way, the total cost will be 2UUBBBB.
If your draw spell is Sensei's Divining Top the minimum pile can use Dark Rituals or Lion's Eye Diamonds (you either Med into SDT/Rit/Rit/Petal or SDT/LED/LED/Petal, in either case you can play SDT with at least BBBB left over) and costs 2UBBB. If you have Deathmark, you need to use one Dark Ritual and one Lion's Eye Diamond and the pile will cost 2UBBBB. If you use a second Sensei's Divining Top, you can generate lots of extra storm with a minimum of 9 spells (from Doomsday onward) and each mana beyond the 4UBBB gives you one storm.
"the igg pile"
Cost: 1U + SDT in play/Brainstorm in hand + 2 extra cards
Results: min of 11 spells (counting from Doomsday on)
The idea here is that you setup a situation where you will Brainstorm into SDT + 2x LED and put back 2 random cards knowing the third card is IGG. You'll play SDT, play the LEDs, then break them for UUUBBB. You use B to spin SDT and put IGG on top of your deck. You cash in SDT to get IGG and play it with U floating to return Brainstorm and 2x LED. You play these to get SDT which you play then spin + cash in to get your lethal Tendrils.
The notable variations to this pile involve having extras of the combo pieces in hand in addition to the 2 random cards. For example, 2 cards + LED with SDT in play/Brainstorm in hand makes the pile only cost U. The catch is that you replace the second LED in the pile with a Lotus Petal so you have mana to replay SDT. IGG or Tendrils can be in your hand as one of the two random cards.
"igg pass the turn pile"
This usually costs 1U (SDT) or UU (Ponder) and makes a min of 10 spells (SDT) or 9 spells (Ponder). It goes like this:
Cost: BBB then you need UU or 1U + 1 card hand + one of the 6 cards that goes in the pile NEXT TURN.
Results: min of 9-10 spells
The non-storm pile is a means for cheating a fattie (usually emraku) into play for next to nothing. It requires just that you resolve Doomsday then can either wait the two turns to play shelldock then untap with it, or to draw into shelldock isle somehow and play it this turn so you only pass once. This pile looks like this:
Shelldock Isle
CARD
CARD
Emrakul/Fattie
CARD
I say Fattie because there are times when putting Blazing Archon into the pile and recurring Doomsday into Doomsday alternating with Tendrils of Agony is a good plan (say, your opponent is at a high life total or has too many permanents for emrakul to handle).
Most of the time, your cards will want to be either Force of Wills/Misdirections or a combination of Lotus Petals/Lands, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Tendrils of Agony. The former lets you deal with things like edicts or late stifles while the later can play through wastelands before shelldock isle (Petal/land), wastelands on shelldock isle (Rit+Doomsday), more than 6 permanents, more than 30 life, less than 2 turns worth of cards in your library (Doomsday), or just kill your opponent from 19-21 in a single attack (15 from Emrakul + 4-6 point Tendrils).
I'll post more about how to play these matchups and reasoning on these choices in the next few days. Also, I plan on talking about why I play certain cards and not othrs, why I chose certain numbers, and generally why you shouldn't modify my list without extensive testing (as I've done a lot of it).
For now, this is what I'm play, what I'm siding, and how I'm siding in major matchups:
// Rev614
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
3 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
I'm going to copy/paste this into a different thread. This deck isn't really the same as what was described in the original post, and I want the ability to modify the opening post at will.
@KIN CORN KARN - This is THE problem i've got with (to tell the truth this, pithing needle and howling mine). I'd even considered running Amulet of Vigor because of the CITP problem. Any idea of what i should do about it?
@DalkonClewdin - What kind of Storm combo he used?
howling mine really isnt played in any legacy decks so you really dont need to worry about it. Pithing needle does get ran but very little. You should be able to sustain the combo with some counter magic back up. Vigor could work its just that your taking more slots in your deck that dont help you find doomsday.
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currently playing: LEGACY loam/depthsBG Sneak showUR LED DredgeUBR ReanimatorUB landsBURG EDH DoranWBG JhoiraUR
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The combo consists on:
1 - casting Doomsday to search for Shelldock Isle + Emrakul and 3 random cards of the person's choice, put the Shelldock on top and Emrakul on bottom.
2 - Draw the Shelldock, put it into play, search for Emrakul and Hideaway it. (3 cards left)
3 - Next turn, play Emrakul by Shelldock's Hideaway cost (2 cards left)
4 - Taken the extra turn, swing for 15 with Emrakul (1 card left).
5 - Depending on which turn you played the combo, your opponent can be defenseless without permanents, so, he can't do anything else.
Depending on the opening hand, you can play Doomsday on turn 1 or 2.
my idea by now is:
4x Swamp
3x Island
3x Shelldock Isle
3x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
3x Doomsday
3x Mystical Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Mox Diamond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Spell Pierce
2x Cryptic Command
2x Show and Tell
1x Dark Ritual
So, do you guys think that the combo Doomsday+Shelldock Isle+Emrakul could be Legacy viable?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
So I'd consider upping those and playing less controlish- there are very few outs to someone having that Eldrazi out.
Also thinking that there has to be something cheaper than Cryptic Command
Not sure if Sensei's Divining Top is necessary-
But a nice start for sure.
I think it has potential- all of the removal I can think that is run in Legacy can't target Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
currently playing:
LEGACY
loam/depthsBG
Sneak showUR
LED DredgeUBR
ReanimatorUB
landsBURG
EDH
DoranWBG
JhoiraUR
@DalkonClewdin - What kind of Storm combo he used?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
it was a slower combo than Ad Nauseam due to the fact that if one drew Emrakul off the top of an Ad Nauseam Trigger that would probably kill you. But it was a Tendrils Combo (similar to the original Tendrils Combo prior to Ad Nauseam's printing).
Draw Spell, Grape shot, Lions Eye Diamond, Conjures Bauble, Second Sunrise
Thanks Darth Monkey
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
@DalkonCledwin - I'll search about how this works and make some tests.
@LastManStanding - i'll test it
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Emidln's list:
4 Doomsday
3 Show and Tell
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Thanks Vacrix for showing the list (I had completely forgotten what the list looked like in all honesty).
Yes, if Emidln is testing the list, then it is bound to be really good. I won't argue that it is going to be the BEST deck in the format, but it will be VERY good.
The problem with Emrakul and Shelldock Island is that it in theory gives your opponent 2 turns with which to find an answer (the turn that Shelldock is played, and the turn after Emrakul attacks seeing as how she only does 15 damage leaving your opponent with 5 life).
That is two chances to stop you from winning, two possible answers. If your opponent finds an answer to her, you will NEED a back up win condition, and that is what Emidln's list has in abundance with the access to the Tendril's of Agony. In truth it only REALLY needs a storm count of 3 to be able to win assuming Emrakul has already attacked for 15 damage
just a nooby question: how does tendrils works with Doomsday?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
that, I never quite figured out... so you would have to ask Emidln. I will see if I can get him to post in this thread the next time I speak to him so he can explain it for you. Hopefully he is online sooner rather than later.
Doomsday tendrils is literally the most difficult thing to play right in legacy:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tGtL3juVU8C4isyJQqJ8Ouw
I won't take the time to explain it too much, and I'm sure that's not up to date, but it'll give you an idea of where to start.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
@DalkonCledwin - Thanks, it would be of great help having him to post here.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Okay, a detailed example of the most basic stack:
You have SDT in play and access to 2U after casting doomsday (2UBBB total). You've probably played some spells to do that.
Stack:
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Tendrils
Tap top to draw meditate, meditate into LED, LED, Petal, SDT. Use petal to play the SDT, drop both LED's and crack them for BBBBBB. Tap top to draw your tendrils, tendrils for 6+doomsday+whatever you cast to ramp up mana or cantrip into the kill.
There are lots of stacks involving IGG returning brainstorm and LED's that take less mana and ramp up storm way faster. Generally you want a cantrip to get into the pile the turn you cast DDay and win, because passing the turn sucks. One good pass the turn pile goes:
1U available the turn after you cast DDay, 1 random card in hand, and one of: LED, Ponder, SDT, Brainstorm, IGG, or TOA (the pile will change accordingly, but you'll get the idea) :
(assuming the card in hand was SDT, remember your other random card! important for brainstorms)
Brainstorm
LED
LED
IGG
TOA
Hint: This wins turn 2 (assuming a turn 1 DDay) and you should not need to reorder with SDT. It'll hit 10 storm.
EDIT: If you have ponder in hand it's only good for 9 storm. Leave that part out when you're playing with that pile.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
This is a deck I've been working on for awhile now. It's a turn 3 UB combo deck with a strong manabase, the best manipulation in the game, and the ability to kill on turn 1 and 2. It plays gameplans that are assembled in the same fashion for very little mana but are hated on in drastically different ways.
The two gameplans:
(A) Cheat Emrakul (or another relevant fatty) into Play
(B) Play a lethal Tendrils of Agony
You have two ways to accomplish (A):
(1) Doomsday into Shelldock Isle
(2) Show and Tell
(B) is almost always accomplished with Doomsday. Doomsday has a couple major Doomsday piles (with hundreds of variations) and a many situational piles. It's a mass tutor that can be used, if you know your deck very well, to pull yourself out of extremely bad situations and manufacture wins out of thin air.
Quickly, I'll go over the main doomsday storm piles:
"the Meditate pile"
Cost: 2U+BBB+CantripMana
Results: min of 7 spells (counting from Doomsday onward)
Meditate
Lotus Petal/Deathmark/Sensei's Divining Top#2
Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
If your draw spell is Brainstorm or Ponder, you need Dark Rituals instead of Lion's Eye Diamonds and the total cost is 2UUBBB. If you use Deathmark in this way, the total cost will be 2UUBBBB.
If your draw spell is Sensei's Divining Top the minimum pile can use Dark Rituals or Lion's Eye Diamonds (you either Med into SDT/Rit/Rit/Petal or SDT/LED/LED/Petal, in either case you can play SDT with at least BBBB left over) and costs 2UBBB. If you have Deathmark, you need to use one Dark Ritual and one Lion's Eye Diamond and the pile will cost 2UBBBB. If you use a second Sensei's Divining Top, you can generate lots of extra storm with a minimum of 9 spells (from Doomsday onward) and each mana beyond the 4UBBB gives you one storm.
"the igg pile"
Cost: 1U + SDT in play/Brainstorm in hand + 2 extra cards
Results: min of 11 spells (counting from Doomsday on)
Sensei's Divining Top/Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
The idea here is that you setup a situation where you will Brainstorm into SDT + 2x LED and put back 2 random cards knowing the third card is IGG. You'll play SDT, play the LEDs, then break them for UUUBBB. You use B to spin SDT and put IGG on top of your deck. You cash in SDT to get IGG and play it with U floating to return Brainstorm and 2x LED. You play these to get SDT which you play then spin + cash in to get your lethal Tendrils.
The notable variations to this pile involve having extras of the combo pieces in hand in addition to the 2 random cards. For example, 2 cards + LED with SDT in play/Brainstorm in hand makes the pile only cost U. The catch is that you replace the second LED in the pile with a Lotus Petal so you have mana to replay SDT. IGG or Tendrils can be in your hand as one of the two random cards.
"igg pass the turn pile"
This usually costs 1U (SDT) or UU (Ponder) and makes a min of 10 spells (SDT) or 9 spells (Ponder). It goes like this:
Cost: BBB then you need UU or 1U + 1 card hand + one of the 6 cards that goes in the pile NEXT TURN.
Results: min of 9-10 spells
The stack should look like this:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top/Ponder
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
Just remove whatever card is in your hand and that's your pile.
For more information about Doomsday piles for storm generation, see the storm boards (teamstormboards.proboards.com) and the document that I coauthored at http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AeEdMjG15aT9ZDNoeHM3bV8xNmNyM3Y1OWM5&hl=en
The non-storm pile is a means for cheating a fattie (usually emraku) into play for next to nothing. It requires just that you resolve Doomsday then can either wait the two turns to play shelldock then untap with it, or to draw into shelldock isle somehow and play it this turn so you only pass once. This pile looks like this:
Shelldock Isle
CARD
CARD
Emrakul/Fattie
CARD
I say Fattie because there are times when putting Blazing Archon into the pile and recurring Doomsday into Doomsday alternating with Tendrils of Agony is a good plan (say, your opponent is at a high life total or has too many permanents for emrakul to handle).
Most of the time, your cards will want to be either Force of Wills/Misdirections or a combination of Lotus Petals/Lands, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Tendrils of Agony. The former lets you deal with things like edicts or late stifles while the later can play through wastelands before shelldock isle (Petal/land), wastelands on shelldock isle (Rit+Doomsday), more than 6 permanents, more than 30 life, less than 2 turns worth of cards in your library (Doomsday), or just kill your opponent from 19-21 in a single attack (15 from Emrakul + 4-6 point Tendrils).
I'll post more about how to play these matchups and reasoning on these choices in the next few days. Also, I plan on talking about why I play certain cards and not othrs, why I chose certain numbers, and generally why you shouldn't modify my list without extensive testing (as I've done a lot of it).
For now, this is what I'm play, what I'm siding, and how I'm siding in major matchups:
// Rev614
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
3 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// sideboard
4 Duress
3 Misdirection
1 Extirpate
1 Deathmark
1 Wipe Away
1 Show and Tell
2 Emrakul
2 Blazing Archon
// Sideboard Plans
vs Zoo
Play:
-3 Show and Tell
+1 Deathmark
+2 Misdirection
Draw:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Shelldock Isle
-1 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Island
+4 Duress
+1 Deathmark
+2 Emrakul
vs Merfolk
-4 Doomsday
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Shelldock Isle
-1 Dark Ritual
+4 Duress
+3 Misdirection
+1 Show and Tell
+2 Emrakul
+2 Blazing Archon
vs Counterbalance
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Meditate
-1 Mystical Tutor
-2 Ponder
+4 Duress
+3 Misdirection
+1 Show and Tell
+2 Emrakul
vs Reanimator
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill-Gotten gains
-1 Meditate
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Show and Tell
-2 Ponder
+4 Duress
+3 Misdirection
+2 Emrakul
+1 Blazing Archon
+1 Extirpate
+1 Wipe Away
vs UB Saito ANT
-3 Show and Tell
-1 Lim-Dul's Vault
+4 Duress
I'm going to copy/paste this into a different thread. This deck isn't really the same as what was described in the original post, and I want the ability to modify the opening post at will.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
howling mine really isnt played in any legacy decks so you really dont need to worry about it. Pithing needle does get ran but very little. You should be able to sustain the combo with some counter magic back up. Vigor could work its just that your taking more slots in your deck that dont help you find doomsday.
currently playing:
LEGACY
loam/depthsBG
Sneak showUR
LED DredgeUBR
ReanimatorUB
landsBURG
EDH
DoranWBG
JhoiraUR