True on the wishes. I just couldn't find that much useful creatures in my colours in time. Which others would you suggest
Acidic Slime maybe? Jailer is good or at least Withered Wretch... bog is a good one, you could also move a Wasteland in there if you find you have to have one and can't ever draw it... tabernacle.... it really depends on what you're expecting in your environment
Report is a bit late, but after spending almost 50 minutes typing up a long detailed report, and accidentally closing the wrong tab. I didn't feel like bothering to post again. So making things brief, as I am so disappointed at closing the wrong tab at the time. Played the deck at a total of 3 weekly tournaments, different school locations, as they hold different days for their legacy tournaments. There was just a few changes to the deck, since the last time I posted but nothing major. The deck performed rather well, compared to the very first time I had played it in one of the tournaments I went to, which was a Monday night legacy at College of Dupage, where it had performed rather poor at 2-3. But considering the decks faced were all very powerful deck, rather than my hopes going down, my hopes for the deck actually became higher as I was fighting on par with most of the decks. There was really no match ups where I felt that was un-winnable, and most matches were neck to neck, aside from the random turn 1 kill suffered vs ANT, and a turn 2 Iona on game 1.
After the poor 2-3 performance during that time, I had visited other universities that held their own weekly gatherings and had 3 tournaments afterwards. The deck fluctuated from 3-1, 2-2, and 3-1. Which I felt were pretty satisfying especially for a deck that isn't even a tier 1. There were some pretty useful info I had gained and learned as well. But for now, before I go over those, here's the deck list that I went with, some were changed from the very last time I had posted.
Some things that was pretty apparent from when I've played those 4 times, is that Wasteland does not really hinder the deck at all. Most of the time also, whenever I crack a fetch, I always grab a basic swamp or a basic forest. However, I did try out the alternatives as well, but only on MWS, since I only use the program to play test things to begin with before assembling what I feel comfortable with on a tournament setting. Some alternatives I tried were my own playset of Wastelands, additional lands that produces B/G, and some man lands such as Treetop Village.
Going in order of testing...
1) Additional non-basics that produces B/G such as Llanowar Wastes and/or Overgrown Tomb. At first this did not bother me at all as having the additional lands capable of producing green mana seemed useful. However, I also became much more open to wasteland, and other things like Magus of the Moon, and Back to Basics. Comparing to the build that ran a heavier basic land build felt much more comfortable, nor do I need that many sources that produces green as well, as finding them feel rather easy to begin with.
2) Running my own set of wastelands. I tried this and I felt that it was not really needed. Not only does it hinder me to playing Hymn to Tourach, and beseech, destroying their lands is not really my goal to begin with. I don't really mind the opponent over extending either, while I focus mainly on forcing them to go on top deck mode, so I can generate quite a bit of card advantage with Pernicious Deed. The times I do use it though, actually felt irrelevant, as the end result is the same, opponent in top deck mode. Now, I do run 1 land that's to be used for non-basics, but I'll explain that one later.
3) Man lands such as tree top village. This lands, at least for my build, feels very deceiving. It does act as another form of win condition, but it also does the deck some harm as well. A swing of this creature, and including the opponent cracking some fetchlands, results to Emrakul becoming a turn 1 clock. However, just like the wastes, this affects our early plays as well, and also results to Pernicious Deed, coming down a turn late. One method I used, is that I used another card, I informed my play test partner before hand, what it is supposed to be. I used a different card entirely to place of treetop village, and that card whenever it was in my opening hand, or in play, I also think of the possibility of "what if". After some testing, even my partner, said that the village didn't seem to do much, but says that it looks really strong on a different kind of control shell. On my point of view, there were several mulligans that I took that I would normally have kept where it just a basic forest, and the issue of the deed coming down a turn late did occur a few times as well. Weighting down the pros and cons, it has its positive things, but for me, the positive things it offers does not warrant affecting my early plays. Nor does it do much. As I would indeed search for the Emrakul finish anyways, instead of going for a 7 turn clock. Often times too, i would swing with the manland 3-4 times, but go for the Emrakul finish anyways.
Its positive things though:
- Chump blocks
- Allows for another way to finish the opponent
- Sac outlet vs opponent's top decked Edict effect
However those were not enough for me to include it.
I did mention earlier the Ghost Quarter, which is a singleton in the deck. The card can just be a singleton Wasteland. But I decided to go with the Ghost Quarter, my reason why theres a singleton of this card, is that I wanted a way to be able to answer the land Karakas. Which is seemingly becoming popular and seeing some room in most decks that can support it, since legendary creatures, and mainly as an answer to Iona, Shield of Emeria. But for the deck, seeing that land spells trouble, so I wanted atleast to have an answer for it, since I can tutor for it with Beseech. The times when I am not facing such a land, I mainly use Ghost Quarter, should I come across it, as an additional shuffle effect to compliment the Top, which is pretty much why I went with it over a singleton wasteland.
I am not running Living Wish, as I wanted to have more room in the sideboard. The main decked for me feels strong enough, and I don't really need to drop Gamekeeper ASAP, as my main focus is to first clear and secure my victory. 3 Gamekeeper is enough, as it feels more consistent to chain to Emrakul. With 4 beseech acting as means to find them, I mainly use beseech though, to make sure that the board is first and foremost under control. Finding myself either therapy, deed, Ghost quarter, etc. For whatever is needed to keep the board under control.
But anyways, just wanted to share this with those that's interested with the deck. I am still upset for accidentally closing the wrong tab as it had such a nice long detailed post of my matches. *sigh* I would re type them again, but it just doesn't feel good to do so anymore.
Well that's it, hopefully I don't make the same mistake twice.
One card I would like to bring up that caught my attention is the card Culling Scales. Quite a majority of legacy decks have their curve starting at 1 and ends at 3 usually. The main non-land permanents were going to have in the field anyways are Gamekeeper, Pernicious Deed, Emrakul.
Which their cost is at 3, 4, and 15.
Although it could cause conflict with top, for those that runs it, it looks like it can help grind out things, which also helps buy us some time to set up. Has anyone tried this one?
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Scales seams to slow, and you can only play it when they have pressure in play.....and if they have pressure in play you want to sweep now, not over the course of the rest of the game.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Well, I go to College of Dupage frequently, and I have had recruited quite a bit of people at the source to be joining College of Dupage's Monday night legacy. There are also a lot of Legacy around Chicago area, but CoD has a lot of players, and also getting more and more people, since people sees my signature on bother here and at the source, and inform them where I play. You may have met me, maybe not, name's Frank, and most people that knows me over there, usually thinks I am playing dredge.
My problem I am having is that there's not really anyone I can talk to outside of forums, that has quite some knowledge playing control decks that doesn't run blue. As most players I see in the places I go to are usually Bant, CounterTop, and 4c Landstill players. There's one guy, called Craig that plays at CoD, that plays Mono Black Control, but I don't see the guy much. Though last time I saw him, he took a look at the deck and he really liked it.
All I am really doing is browsing through pages and pages of ages past, reading through dead and inactive threads of other websites and reading about other decks that holds some similarities with my deck, and get some idea from there, see what results they come up with, and what they struggle with, apply it to mine, and do some testing from there. Like other decks such as TrainWreck, Rock, and by a small degree of similarities... Pox.
But mainly just trial and error, and some tests at MWS before trying to bring it to a tournament. There are other people, although extremely few, trying the Gamekeeper shell as well, but the differences in the shell, and so few players playing it makes it difficult. Kinda like how a discussion with pox can be control or aggro, except players testing the the different shells are mainly just themselves, Which makes it difficult. So yes, I wouldn't mind more people to play test against.
Currently, I am trying to see if Funeral Charm, which acts as an additional form to force the opponent to top deck mode, and also as means of killing those Noble Heirarchs from bant thats so popular in the meta would be a good addition to the deck.
Currently testing this shell, which I would give a run this coming week.
Funeral Charm is acting as my possible discard 13-15, while being a possible creature removal should the need arise. But mainly it's addition is to further my plan on forcing the opponent to top deck, it's form of versatility is pretty nice too.
Haunting Echoes vs Worm Harvest. Since it is just an alternate win-con I am looking for, when Haunting Echoes connect, between the sweepers and discards that hit the opponent they pretty much scoop, But also does depend if I can nail their win cons. Worm Harvest, while slow, acts as nice last resort means of winning should the Gamekeeper plan be stopped, and from 1 gamekeeper trigger, worm harvest can get big fairly fast.
Bojuka Bog Several people have mentioned this card already, and if I abandon the Haunting Echoes Alt-win, this can find the room, though I dislike the CitpT part as I don't really want anything to hinder my first 3 turns of play, which to me is really important. So I am weighting its value between its pros and cons.
Sideboard fluctuates a bit, but mainly focused on ANT and Reanimator, as I had a good fighting chance against the decks I played, but those two are just very difficult.
But for now the main change is the Funeral Charms, those that have experience using it, do they serve their porpose well of being an additional discard to compliment the main ones? Or are they just too weak usually?
Previous post I talked about Culling Scales, I figured that it is too slow, but wanted to see how it performs on actual play. I used proxied representation of it, and pretty much, after a deed and or some bloods, I would much rather have a tutor or win-condition now, than drag the game a bit more. Perhaps playing it against aggro when no deeds are present is good, but also depends on how fast the aggro deck can load up on pressure, but coming down on turn 3 means I need to wipe the board now not over time. which LastManStanding was exactly on about.
haunting echos is "cute" and all, but i'd much rather play worm harvest, which can be replayed if countered. it's much more reliable.
i've been playing rockish control decks for years btw, black's always been my favorite color. after seeing you first post this thread, i immediatly ordered a set of foil gamekeepers.. just got them a few days ago. i'll probaby put this together and put it to the test in dekalb next wed.
i work 3rd shift in aurora, near I88/Rt59, how far away are you? maybe we could meet up to test/discuss before i go to work some night.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I actually, earlier just purchased a playset of Funeral Charms since they're pretty cheap, and I bought 1 Worm Harvest as well, since it's one of those cards that's like usually on the dollar bins anyways.
I was testing Worm Harvest earlier, just several brief games, before I decided to go to the card store, sometimes, even if Gamekeeper whiffs and misses emrakul, and no cabal therapy in sight either, when Worm Harvest is in the grave I could actually proceed with the worm harvest plan, and when Emrakul comes out, I dont have to worry about any top decked edict effects. Plus just as you mentioned, can bait some counters as well, and be played over and over. So yeah I am going with Worm Harvest now instead of Haunting Echoes. Besides, its kinda annoying as well, having to search opponent's library for every single copies, which takes some time away from the match clock.
It's not usually a problem, finishing my matches on time, as a matter of fact I can finish the game in a couple turns once the coast is clear. Problem is that some opposing decks just plays so slow, so the time spent on Haunting Echoes can actually bite you.
I'll be testing how Funeral Charm turns out, seems pretty good in theory but needed some testing with it first. Though acting as discard 13-15, and being as an additional answer to a turn 1 lackey on back of innocent bloods is looking pretty sweet at the moment.
I am on Rosemont, literally like 5 minutes away from O'hare airport, and the convention center, where ACEN (Anime Central) is being held is within walking distance for me as well.
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Main: LEDless Dredge
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
I bought a Saturday pass, for the Anime Convention going on in my town. Bumped into my friends, and we just enjoyed walking around taking pictures of some cool looking cosplays, and browsing around the merchandises being sold and so on. Later around night time, there's a Legacy tournament being held, I signed up, and met some people I know that plays competitively as well.
The tournament was a 5 rounds of swiss, where I took 2nd place. I was unable to write down what I boarded in/out each games so I am just summarizing stuff as I see them in the notes.
Round 1: Vs Paul, piloting some black deck. Game 1:
This very first game, I remember keeping a hand with a Forest and a Swamp and Sensei's Divining Top, along with several pairs of discards. However, beyond turn 2, I was stucked on only 1 green mana and 1 black mana for the next 3 or 4 turns after that, while an Abyssal Persecutor is attacking me. He complained after the match that he made some sort of play error, but I was mana screwed and I don't make any excuses. So I forfeited and just shuffled a lot for game 2. Game 2:
He met a heavy bombardment of hand destruction, and tried to play some creatures which was just met with Innocent blood. When all was safe, I used beseech the queen to find my win-con, he scooped shortly after Emrakul hitting play. Saying something that he won't let me have the satisfaction... okay, I guess, more time for me to enjoy walking around later. Game 3:
I recall, keeping a hand of 2 hymns a top, and an innocent blood. His hand was depleted to nothing very quickly, and I then proceed to dropping Gamekeeper, therapy chained into more until I come across Emrakul. He made a lot of fuss on where I am getting the Gamekeepers, how am I paying for those therapies. I was like, I explained it to him on game 2 when I first did it, I even handed him the cards but he didn't want to read them and just want me to tell him (again) what they do... but anyways, I won the match. Current standing 1-0
Round 2: Vs Russel (No notes taken this round)
I am not really sure what happened on this match, my notes is all empty, and life totals just all say scoop, with either of us losing a single health. Game 2 was the same, it says I was down to 19 and he was down to 18 before he scooped, I guess I may have attacked with a Gamekeeper and chained from there. But regardless, I am a bit puzzled why there was no notes on this. Current standing 2-0
During the break time I have, I was joined by the people I had met earlier, when I was playing free for all matches with them. They were asking me if I was playing Dredge, but I told them I was just playing the deck I am working on. We then just talked about our matches, and random stuff, and one of the guy's from College of Dupage, Wayne, giving some advises by one of the guys I was talking with about his goblin deck. After he walked away, I told the people I was talking with that I hope I don't get paired up with him because he's a really good player. But he's very nice also and pretty friendly.
Round 3 was called and I was paired up with the guy I was hoping I don't play against... I was like what? Really? Damn. I am unsure what deck he was playing with until we started, I could have asked the guys I was talking with, since he played against one of them, what his deck was so I could have had some idea how to approach it, but I feel that it's kinda wrong to do so, so I didn't bother.
Round 3: Vs Wayne piloting Zoo Game 1:
This game was rather bloody, or atleast for me as he kept pounding away at my health, while I focus on depleting his hand to 0. His only life loss he was taking was from his own fetchlands, that dropped him to 18. While my health dropped from 20 > 16 > 12 > 8 > 7 (broke a fetch) > 5. Around 5 health, and his Hand was empty, I dropped a Gamekeeper to be a chump blocker, I was worried about him top decking a Path to Exile or something, but chances of it happening I felt is something I could gamble on. He attacked (which dropped me to 2 life left later) and I blocked resulting me to come across Emrakul. He seems to have drawn Lightning Helix, but couldn't play it since he was stucked to 1 land due to my Hymn to Tourach in the earlier turns. He scooped saying that that was close, and I laughed in agreement. Game 2:
Notes says I was at 20 and hes at 19, followed by the notes saying scoop. By from memory, I recalled using the cards Unmask, Therapy and Innocent blood early on. I then dropped Gamekeeper, but he tried to kill it a Path to Exile, and I told him that I have priority. He jumped the gun a little too quick, which I then know what to name with Therapy after Gamekeeper's ability finished resolving. He scooped after this. Current standing 3-0
I did the usual, packing my stuff and fixing my deck to how it is supposed to be before boarding. Then I went to the organizer to report the match. There was several guys by the organizer's table asking if I was "Frank" and they wanted to know what I am playing with. I think they're a friend of my Round 3 opponent. I asked the player, the one that's really interested what I am playing, asking him what his record is, he said he's 3-0. I don't want to tell him, what I am playing because since we're both 3-0, there's a chance we might play against each other. So I refused to tell him.
I walked outside a bit, see how one of my friends are doing with his Guilty Gear: Accent Core matches, and he seems to be doing just fine. I walked around a bit, talking to one of the girls cosplaying a character I do not recognize, and then went back 5 minutes before the next match begins. When I came back the guys that was asking what I am playing with, or mainly the guy that's currently 3-0, said that he found out I am using Gamekeeper. I asked how he found out, he said he just called his friend that was my Round 3 opponent.
I talked to the guys I was playing multi-player with earlier and I told them, that I hope I don't play against that I guy that knows my deck already. But one of them played against him and I was asking what that guy's deck is, in case I play against him, so I know what to name with Cabal Therapy. But he didn't wanna tell me coz he said it's not right, but he knows my deck though. So I just think to myself, I hope I don't play against him.
Round 4 was called, and I was paired against Jason. The guy that I was hoping not to play and so... again... I was like... what? Really? Damn.
Round 4: vs Jason piloting UR Painter's Servant combo Game 1:
I managed to deplete his hand to 0 very quickly, and I am now just searching for my win-con with Sensei's Divining Top. His hand is empty, he has nothing relevant on play, and I am now just searching for my win-condition. But the deck is throwing tantrum at me and I am revealing with my top, 2 other tops, which slowed me down a huge deal and I was unable to capitalize on my board advantage. Due to having 2 tops being revealed constantly with my SDT. Eventually, the opponent top decked an Academy Ruins and he also apperantly have Tormod's Crypt that he would use to respond to Emrakul's trigger, after activating the whole painters/Grindstone combo. I lost this match, but I was very upset with how the deck just decided to roll over for many turns, when I had secured board position and opponent had 0 cards in hand. *Sigh* Game 2:
I lost this match due to not being careful, I should have won this match but I didn't due to not being careful. I started with a Sensei's Divining Top, and I attacked his hand with a duress the next turn. but he Brainstormed and put the important stuff on top. I had in my hand also another duress and Sadistic Sacrament andd rew a Hymn to Tourach a turn after. The Sacrament ran into a Force of Will, where had I just waited a couple of turns for him to draw out his "good" cards that he hid away with brainstorm, I could have had protected my Sacrament, as he apparently only have 2 pieces of one of the combo pieces. Had I just waited for him to draw out his good cards, before going off with Sacrament unprotected I could have won. I managed to get him down to 0 cards, but I was racing vs his academy ruin's bringing back what he had lost. He's trying to get 3 pieces in play: Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and find a Tormod's Crypt. I am just looking for Gamekeeper, I manged to find it, but sadly it was a turn too late. I then just conceded the match, and wished him well on his match. Regardless, he was a really nice guy, and we were even giving each other high five when we both have 2 SDT in play, lol. We then played a few more matches just for fun after our actual match. Current standing 3-1
Round 5: Vs John Piloting UW Control deck Game 1:
My opponent's deck actually packs in a lot of relevant cards, and some cards to a certain degree are relevant as well. 1cc Exile cards, Oblivion Rings, Day of Judgement, Martial Coup. Game 1 was pretty fast, as he depleted to 0 cards in hand very quickly, he was unable to top deck an answer to Emrakul, but I was saving a Funeral Charm to be used just to buy me that turn I needed to make sure he's protected. Game 2:
I chained into Gamekeepers, and went through all 3 Gamekeepers before Emrakul came out. Opponent was in top deck mode as he has 0 cards in hand, and no way to Manipulate the library. Or at least none in play, but he managed to playing a big Martial Coup thanks to some help of Everflowing Chalice. Seeing as all my Gamekeeper's are gone, I was thinking if it's possible to make a come back with my last resort win-con with is the Worm Harvest. Looking at the clock by those tokens, and thinking that since I needed to: 1)Find Worm Harvest and 2) Get some lands in the yard. It's not possible so I just scooped. Game 3:
This was a very long dragged out match, as he side boarded in more cards for me he added some Flash Freeze as well. It's a long drag out match with my hand discard + sweeper and SB (Unmask and sacrament) vs his all his counter magic, sideboard cards, and sweepers and O-rings. I made sure to discard his hand to 0 first, and later came into Duress, he later played Mind Spring which made him back to 7 cards. But I also saw 2 hymns back to back with SDT. His hand went down to 0 again fast. I managed to secure my win and finish the match just right before match was called. I told my opponent that that was one heck of a match, and he has so much cards that I needed to get rid of. Current Standing 4-1.
After all the points were calculated. They announced who got what. I took 2nd place and won my self some duel box and a bunch of packs. It was a very fun experience, and most of the people I met were very nice. I now don't mind the people examining my deck since the tournament is now over. Overall, it was a very fun experience, and I hoped everyone had fun too.
EDIT: This was my decklist, not much canged though from my previous list.
//Lands (24)
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tainted Wood ( Would one day be Bayou)*
3 Snow-covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
//Library Manipulation (7)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Beseech the Queen
//Creatures (5)
3 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
thats funny about wayne, he doesn't usually make mistakes. but how did you not know he was playing zoo? it's all i ever see him play.
sucks about the guy finding out your deck, and no one would tell you about his. he totally had an unfair advantage, knowing that he had to hit a crypt before going off.
in rockish decks, i've found 3 tops to be the right number. this may have helped one of your matches.
i'm still not so hot for beeseach the queen.. i much prefer living wish in that spot. it's one (or more) mana less, and more versitile. please expalin in detail why you picked it over wish.
i'm also curious about the unmaskes. is that just a carry over habbit from playing dredge for so long? i don't like the card disadvantage. personally, i'm playing 4 thoughtseize main, and 2 duress sideboard. and those are for combo/control.
also curious about the funeral charms.. how good were they? in what situations? i currently have 3 dark depths in those slots, with 1 depths, 1 hexmage, 1 eternal witness as additional wish targets.
but i'm thinking about cutting that package.. doing too much? maybe dark rituals would be better, as turn one therapy (force) and turn 2 gamekeeper is an amazing play. have you tested with dark rits?
i haven't tried the loam thing either, thats another possibility for those slots.
i don't really have a lot of time to test, as i work full time, go to school full time, and i've got 3 kids. but i'll play it this wednesday. what do you think a good wish board would be? i havne't completed my board yet. i usually face a lot of agrocontrol, and there's ususally one ANT player and one Goblins player.
edit...
whole new direction.. you're always having trouble finding your gamekeeper right? and top just doesnt' cut it have the time, right? so what about adding brainstorms and ponders? they're the best diggeres i know of. not enough blue to support force, just a splash. would look something like this..
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I'm wondering, are you the guy I played at ACEN? I was wondering because you said your name is Jason and the opponent I played is also named Jason. You also said you sometimes go to CoD, and the guy I played against knows the guy that goes to CoD. So... yeah, is that you?
thats funny about wayne, he doesn't usually make mistakes. but how did you not know he was playing zoo? it's all i ever see him play.
He plays other decks, I rarely get paired up against him, and one time I got paired against him, he was playing a white stax, when I was playing Enchantress, and during that match I was the one that made some silly mistakes, playing Utopia Sprawl, and drawing a bunch of cards and forgetting about Trinisphere. It happens.
sucks about the guy finding out your deck, and no one would tell you about his. he totally had an unfair advantage, knowing that he had to hit a crypt before going off.
Well that was fine honestly, my only disappointment came from the SDT revealing two other SDTs and I am trying to find some sort of shuffle effect just to get moving so I can come across my win-con faster since the opportunity is present, coast was clear, he had 0 cards in hand, and nothing relevant in play and all I needed was to find my win-con. But after many turns of just draw-go, unable to get a shuffle effect, he dropped an academy ruins and that was that. Game 2, was heavily my fault throwing a sadistic sacrament, missing the potential SDT switch with top and play force. Where as had I just focused on my initial game plan on just depleting the opponent's hand to 0 first and then do it. But since I decided to not follow my usual game plan, I have no one else to blame but myself for that one, lol.
i'm still not so hot for beeseach the queen.. i much prefer living wish in that spot. it's one (or more) mana less, and more versitile. please expalin in detail why you picked it over wish.
I'll get into this a little bit later, after covering your other questions.
i'm also curious about the unmaskes. is that just a carry over habbit from playing dredge for so long? i don't like the card disadvantage. personally, i'm playing 4 thoughtseize main, and 2 duress sideboard. and those are for combo/control.
Thoughtseize is fine, if that card is working out for you. Especially since you have a way to handle some things should the scenario arise, like seeing Academy Ruins in their hand, or cards like Karakas. I just went for Duress since I don't really mind creatures coming into play, I just want to nail specific things that can affect my win-con, such as 1cc exile cards, O-rings, wraths and so on. Creatures I can deal with innocent blood or deed, or have gamekeeper act somewhat like a moat. I don't really mind getting hit a few times either as I like nailing several things with deed. Besides, even though I may say that, between the fetchlands and the thoughtseizes I will be losing a lot of health, and I feel that it is just not needed. Maybe this falls under player comfort as well?
Unmasks purpose, at first for me, is to NOT try and stop ANT, because it cant, but to slow them down, and follow up with more hand discard to keep slowing them down until I can find my win-con. However, I have been considering replacing the Unmasks with Chalice of the Voids. Dropping them for 0 and focus on the gameplan of wiping their hand, or slow them down enough till you can tutor for a Sadistic Sacrament. However, for the moment Unmasks have proven hot for me actually, as it gives me more chance of turn 1 discard. Chalice though definitely warrants being in the deck as it helps against a lot of matches. Chalice at 1 when needed wont really hurt your Gamekeeper/Therapy plan either.
also curious about the funeral charms.. how good were they? in what situations? i currently have 3 dark depths in those slots, with 1 depths, 1 hexmage, 1 eternal witness as additional wish targets.
Honestly, they haven't really performed very well at all. The creatures I often come across are all to big for them to kill, though it is hot against goblins. But between goblins and Zoo, I have a bigger chance to come across Zoo. They haven't been useful at all to me yet, but I may give them a little bit more time and testing before I totally throw them off. But for the moment, the card has been pretty poor for me and not many situations I could use them in.
but i'm thinking about cutting that package.. doing too much? maybe dark rituals would be better, as turn one therapy (force) and turn 2 gamekeeper is an amazing play. have you tested with dark rits?
I dont really think you are doing too much at all, Dark Depths plan can be easily added to the deck. However, whenever I think about Dark Depths, There's always this argument, and a good one too, to why not just focus on Rock style build with 4 Living Wish, and 3-4 Dark Depths plan, opening up a possible 1-2 more slots to the deck. I think Dark depths plan is indeed strong as well, but from MWS testings, as I do not possess the cards at all in real life, and would normally test first before getting the cards. The fact that Dark Depths does not produce black, is not good for my game plan. To me, how early and how fast you disrupt the opponent is pretty critical, at least for me. What I do during turn 1 and turn 2 matters a lot, at least for me.
Yes, I tested Dark Rituals as well, but to fully utilize the card I feel that either the Beseech or the Top needs to go, but mainly the beseech would probably go. I tested the card by flipping the beseech cards inside the sleeves backwards, so they show up as blanks. I pretend they are beseech but also keep a note in my mind that they can potentially be a dark ritual. There has definitely been some situations where 1st turn duress + hymn took place. But it's not so bad to just duress turn 1, and hymn follow up on turn 2 either. However, what made me cut them was this... past turn 3 when flipping through your cards with SDT, and where dark Rituals no longer matter. You have 3 other SDTs and all those dark rituals you are trying to avoid seeing with top. I know seeing two tops with your top is already painful enough. Just like the situation that happened on my 4th match. Giving the opponent an ample time to stabilize.
i haven't tried the loam thing either, thats another possibility for those slots.
Of all the game I have played so far, there has not a single match I came across where I had wished that anyone of my cards was a LftL. If you are planning on using it with the cycling lands, It would be a really strong draw engine, but not something for this deck. The deck wants to bombard the opponent with discards turns 1 and 2, or play Innocent bloods early. If anything I would much rather have additional strong turn 1 discard effects.
i don't really have a lot of time to test, as i work full time, go to school full time, and i've got 3 kids. but i'll play it this wednesday. what do you think a good wish board would be?
When you build the deck, you may have your own play style and may even have different approach on doing things. Where as I feel what you do during turn 1 and turn 2, may be completely different from my approach. I am not sure what your shell would be with the Living Wish in the deck, but I wouldn't get overboard with Living wish and try to have such a large wishboard. I would probably dedicate 3-4 wish boards at most. One of the Wish targets being a way to handle problematic lands such as Karakas.
About Beseech the Queen...
First I would like to add, that what I really wish that this card would be, but sadly is beyond my reach due to it's heavy price tag, is the card called Grim Tutor. But I don't think the card store in my area even carries the card, not like I could afford it anyways. But anyways, back on topic and to justify my choice for Beseech...
I honestly, from further Testing, and from matches played, would prefer to have the 4th one in, instead of current 4:3 split between top and tutor. The card helps me further progress my game.
1) Getting the extra help needed for that push to keep attacking the opponent's hand, before dropping Gamekeeper, usually either with Duress or Hymn to Tourach. To see if the coast is clear and can drop Gamekeeper and follow up with a flashback.
2) Sometimes when getting ready to go off, I have a feeling that a singleton Cabal Therapy in the grave will have a fairly high chance to fail and chain into another Gamekeeper without hitting another Therapy. I would use beseech to grab another therapy, just to ensure a smooth chaining. Sometimes though, depending on wether I may need the Cabal Therapy if I know the cards in their hand, I may just grab another gamekeeper instead which is a much smoother chain.
3) It can, should the situation arise, be used to help grab a land that can produce green mana. While this is extremely rare, I can see it possible with so many decks packing Wastelands. Which is also so one of the reasons why I opted for a heavy basic build.
4) Karakas is a major pain, and stops Karakas dead in his tracks. It is also the reason why I added 1 land which I can tutor for should the need for it arise. 1 tutorable answer for such a card that stops us dead cold, 1 slot, not really much of a problem. Specially since we can tutor for it. This has been done one time so far and I was glad of having such a possible play, though it was not really against a karakas. Though if somehow all else fail, we just, in a couple turns amass over 20+ worms as our last resort.
5) Pernicious Deed is good, really good, helps stabilize the board, when needed. While there's is already 4 in the deck, sometimes even with SDT, and shuffle effects its not really enough to help find it.
6) With some help of SDT as well as the Beseech, when we deplete the opponent's hand to 0. We want to capitalize on that opportunity to grab our Gamekeeper and go for the win. This happens very frequently actually.
7) Helps me grab the silver bullet I brought in from the sideboard, mainly for such cards as Sadistic Sacrament. Since it's not really a card I want to devote a big sideboard slot for, but want some means of being able to use it for the matches that gets wrecked by it.
The tutor has been really hot for me, I actually want to make it a 4-off but I think 3 is enough. If anything, Grim Tutor is what I really wish the card would be. What the wish could do, I feel that I can also get the same result with just grabbing what I need that's already in there for me. While having a good sum of sideboard for what is needed.
Funeral Charm on the other hand, has been close to useless from testing and actual play. Though it had caught people off guard when I use the card in response to their spell when they're down to nothing but 2 cards. But other than that the card has really been underwhelming for me, but I have not tested the card thorough enough.
The blue splash
The blue splash, I'll be completely honest, I can't dismiss the idea since I have not really tested it at all. But I am just envisioning the splash in my meta, I can see a pretty risky result specially since Wasteland and Stifle are very common. It does however give you a good possibility for Engineered Explosives, as mentioned.
The man land plan
If it's working out for you then that is good, there's nothing wrong with having them as a fall back plan either. For me, however, I've never really gotten to a point where I had wished I have them. By man lands you must be referring about either Mishra's Factory and/or Treetop Village correct? I don't like how one is just colorless, and the other comes into play tapped. For me the most important turns are how you interact with the opponent during the first several turns. The said lands hinders me from consistently attacking my opponent's hand. Though it can be balanced out by running Dark Ritual, that is, however, trying to force some slots, just for those scenario. But finding my self out of steam and top deck them and/or revealing those rituals with SDTs, along side trying to worry other SDTs popping up is really worry some. If the man lands is working for you though that's good, but due to my play preference and shell, I don't really need the man land plan, nor have I ever got to the point of hoping I have them. It also makes cards like swords and exiles relevant, as normally when I see them, I leave them alone and make the opponent discard something else. They don't really do anything against Gamekeeper. Where as running the man land plan, you can't totally ignore them as they can use them to nail your lands. So for me, I leave the those swords and exiles alone, and just discards his others, leaving him with irrelevant cards. Unless there's really nothing else to be named.
Beseech the Queen vs Living Wish
This really depends on the shell you are running, if you opted to go with the Dark Depths plan then it really should be included. However, just like the reasons I gave about Beseech. I feel that the things I need to take care of can already be taken care of in the main decked. Where you would wish for your answer, I would tutor for mine, without costing me precious sideboard slots. Though I could see some added versatility for the deck for some situations, what I can tutor for however, can pretty much answer the things I come across. I've tried wish on my earlier testing, and it was just simply cut, it was, however, tested with my own shell, not the shell that runs man lands. Finding my win-cons between either drawing them, Searching with fetch/SDT or simply wishing for them has never really been a problem. There are just some games where your deck will just rollover and not do what you want. Every deck goes through that.
Emrakul vs Progenitus
Both are big, both are a huge threat. The situations where Emrakul has problems, Progenitus shines. However, Progenitus also will have difficulty on other things where Emrakul also shines. The annihilator 6, is what I am really after, though his other abilities are dead close to it as well. The cards that can answer Emrakul, we also already have an answer for as well. They are both strong, but Emrakul has not let me down yet. If you wanted though you could, maybe do a split between the two. In case you ever get to the point where you may want to drop another gamekeeper along side your win con or another gamekeeper in play.
nope, wasn't me. I haven't been out to COD for almost 2 years now, it conflicts with my schedule. But i'm always at the dekalb shop.
if you're always playing dredge and enchantress, you sound like Eon (sp?). Same guy?
for better top-ing, i suggest 8-10 fetches.
dark depths- i was just thinking about an alternate win conditions. and it shouldn't ever effect your turn one black, as you should never count them as lands. i was playing 24 lands + 3 depths. but i think i'll just focus on the game keeper plan for now. i just got the depths a week or two ago, thats why i'm all hot about them.
dark rit- also helps power out quick deeds, which can be HUGE vs an ealry rush from goblines or zoo. it doesn't have to take a tutor spot.
here's what i've got built right now, but i haven't tested this build either...
the infernal contracts could be dark depths, or something else. just thought it would be nice to actually draw some juice.. i've a lot of experience with eva green, and it always sucks hitting topdeck mode with no threat, after wiping your opponents hand.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
just lost a few paragraphs due to stupid computer glitch.
anyway,
quicksand is just another, uncounterable, tutorable, way of killing gatekeeper. also, it could possibly actually kill a creature when needed. main thing is that i only own one phyrexian tower, which i think is a worthy inclusion.
zappa1 was right, we shouldn't be too concerned with creatures, so swithcing thoughtseize with duress might be a possibility. then there woundn't be too much pain. but i've played suicide decks for a long time, so you'll have to come up with a better argument that pain, to make me swithch the contracts. not saying i won't... i've never actually played them before... and i know they're the weekest link. i just thought that in a combo deck like this, knowing how fast our own hand is going to go empty, that it would be nice to restock. i'm VERY open to sugestions, but please something other than lilliana.. shes much too slow. i can't even find room for her in my EDH or casual decks.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
so I wen't to play today.. not enough people for a sanctioned tourny.
at least 4 of our regulars are busy practacing for san juan. i guess the first beautiful day and summer vacation in a college town got the rest.
i was able to play several games vs goblins and u/b/g countertop-depths.
aside from a few games that i was stuck on 2 lands (even then i won off multiple dark rits), this deck really performed. much better than i had hoped.
i am completely convinced now that dark rits are absolutly necessary. they were very hot vs goblins.. being able to blow deeds early. one play that i remember clearly vs the countertop deck, was as follows...
i had an opening hand of swamp, fetch, dark rit, therapy, gamekeeper, 2x hymn. on the play, i therapy nameing force. i see something like 2x land, bob, counterballance, hexmage, brainstorm, and ?. he plays land go. i play dark rit, and playing cautiously, play a hymn, thinking i'd like to clear his hand and keep my keeper on the off chance he could brainstorm into a counter. of course he did.. and forced the hymn. then i hymed again with the foating mana and from my second land drop. i proceed to draw well and end the game.
another game, he double dazed my gamekeeper, but i had another one plus a living wish in hand.
i was never sorry to see a living wish either.. saved me a few times. especially when i had gotten down to like 2 life vs goblins and he had a mog fanatic in play. i searched up a shriekmaw, then swung with emrakul (he had 7 permanents prior to killing the fanatic).
a few of the goblin games were ruff because of warren weirding, but i kept nameing it with therapy and hitting it second with thoughtseize (first i had to hit earwig squad a few times).
and i would NOT have thought this.. but i actually drew and played infernal contract 4 or 5 times... won me the game every time. not really worried about life when you'll probably be winning the next turn or the one after that. i know its an odd choice, but i suggest tring it.. was very hot for me and i love the card now.
the single basic forest both helped (vs goblins wastelands) and hurt (stuck on one swamp and one forest). the pherexian tower seemed like a good idea, but i never actaully used it. may be a better wish target.
a second win condition is definatly needed though... i'm fearful of a earwig squad connecting, or a humility. all in all, it was a really fun and powerful deck to pilot
thoughts? comments?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Congratulations, and glad you did well, although there wasn't much matches on your side. Nice to know that dark rits and contracts works for you, but for me, aside from fetches, i don't really like to lose life. That's why I never ran thoughtseize, and it hasn't really backfired on my at all. Funeral Charm is something I am using since it nails a lot of decks I am playing against, like bobs, noble Hierarchs and the likes. While funeral charm is actually fairly useful in some way, it's also the weakest link in my deck. But I feel like I need this many X amount of discards, and this many Y removal, without my mana base being attacked. Small pox does it, but I'm still testing it currently, trying to see if it does the deck more harm than good.
Not really sure what other good non-creature will be good for an alternate win-con, I currently just run Worm Harvest, but I have not gotten to a situation where I needed to resort to it as my fall back plan. I've been thinking about it, but it's just 1 slot, that's nice to be there should the need for it arise. 20+ worm tokens in a matter of a couple turns isn't really nothing to scoff at either.
If goblins are worrying you, and you think that you'll see it alot, just pack in some Engineered Plague in the side. Or Contagion if you really need to have fast answers.
ya, i'm glad i played thoughtseize instead of duress. had i not been able to snag the first turn lacky, when his other cards were ringleaders and sgc, probably would have lost that one. also, i pulled a earwig squad twice, and that card would singlehandedly wreck this deck.
i really don't think we should be too concerned with life total in this deck. it's just another resource that we use. it doesn't matter if you win with 20 life, or 1 life (which i did).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
i directed you over here for a reason, did you even read the thread?
it's not that long, and you'll get a few good ideas. let me know when you've done that, and some testing, and we can bounce some ideas off eachother based on our testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
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Acidic Slime maybe? Jailer is good or at least Withered Wretch... bog is a good one, you could also move a Wasteland in there if you find you have to have one and can't ever draw it... tabernacle.... it really depends on what you're expecting in your environment
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Turn 1 duress, hymn/therapy
also turn 2 Gamekeeper
Best play with this deck was turn 1 therapy naming fow, turn 2 gamekeeper and sac before they got a chance to swords
Thanks Darth Monkey
After the poor 2-3 performance during that time, I had visited other universities that held their own weekly gatherings and had 3 tournaments afterwards. The deck fluctuated from 3-1, 2-2, and 3-1. Which I felt were pretty satisfying especially for a deck that isn't even a tier 1. There were some pretty useful info I had gained and learned as well. But for now, before I go over those, here's the deck list that I went with, some were changed from the very last time I had posted.
//Lands (24)
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
3 Snow-covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
//Library Manipulation (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Beseech the Queen
//Creatures (5)
3 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Protection (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
1 Raven's Crime
//Board Control (10)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
2 Diabolic Edict
//Alternate Win-condition (1)
1 Haunting Echoes
//Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Coffin Purge
3 Unmask
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Engineered Plague
Some things that was pretty apparent from when I've played those 4 times, is that Wasteland does not really hinder the deck at all. Most of the time also, whenever I crack a fetch, I always grab a basic swamp or a basic forest. However, I did try out the alternatives as well, but only on MWS, since I only use the program to play test things to begin with before assembling what I feel comfortable with on a tournament setting. Some alternatives I tried were my own playset of Wastelands, additional lands that produces B/G, and some man lands such as Treetop Village.
Going in order of testing...
1) Additional non-basics that produces B/G such as Llanowar Wastes and/or Overgrown Tomb. At first this did not bother me at all as having the additional lands capable of producing green mana seemed useful. However, I also became much more open to wasteland, and other things like Magus of the Moon, and Back to Basics. Comparing to the build that ran a heavier basic land build felt much more comfortable, nor do I need that many sources that produces green as well, as finding them feel rather easy to begin with.
2) Running my own set of wastelands. I tried this and I felt that it was not really needed. Not only does it hinder me to playing Hymn to Tourach, and beseech, destroying their lands is not really my goal to begin with. I don't really mind the opponent over extending either, while I focus mainly on forcing them to go on top deck mode, so I can generate quite a bit of card advantage with Pernicious Deed. The times I do use it though, actually felt irrelevant, as the end result is the same, opponent in top deck mode. Now, I do run 1 land that's to be used for non-basics, but I'll explain that one later.
3) Man lands such as tree top village. This lands, at least for my build, feels very deceiving. It does act as another form of win condition, but it also does the deck some harm as well. A swing of this creature, and including the opponent cracking some fetchlands, results to Emrakul becoming a turn 1 clock. However, just like the wastes, this affects our early plays as well, and also results to Pernicious Deed, coming down a turn late. One method I used, is that I used another card, I informed my play test partner before hand, what it is supposed to be. I used a different card entirely to place of treetop village, and that card whenever it was in my opening hand, or in play, I also think of the possibility of "what if". After some testing, even my partner, said that the village didn't seem to do much, but says that it looks really strong on a different kind of control shell. On my point of view, there were several mulligans that I took that I would normally have kept where it just a basic forest, and the issue of the deed coming down a turn late did occur a few times as well. Weighting down the pros and cons, it has its positive things, but for me, the positive things it offers does not warrant affecting my early plays. Nor does it do much. As I would indeed search for the Emrakul finish anyways, instead of going for a 7 turn clock. Often times too, i would swing with the manland 3-4 times, but go for the Emrakul finish anyways.
Its positive things though:
- Chump blocks
- Allows for another way to finish the opponent
- Sac outlet vs opponent's top decked Edict effect
However those were not enough for me to include it.
I did mention earlier the Ghost Quarter, which is a singleton in the deck. The card can just be a singleton Wasteland. But I decided to go with the Ghost Quarter, my reason why theres a singleton of this card, is that I wanted a way to be able to answer the land Karakas. Which is seemingly becoming popular and seeing some room in most decks that can support it, since legendary creatures, and mainly as an answer to Iona, Shield of Emeria. But for the deck, seeing that land spells trouble, so I wanted atleast to have an answer for it, since I can tutor for it with Beseech. The times when I am not facing such a land, I mainly use Ghost Quarter, should I come across it, as an additional shuffle effect to compliment the Top, which is pretty much why I went with it over a singleton wasteland.
I am not running Living Wish, as I wanted to have more room in the sideboard. The main decked for me feels strong enough, and I don't really need to drop Gamekeeper ASAP, as my main focus is to first clear and secure my victory. 3 Gamekeeper is enough, as it feels more consistent to chain to Emrakul. With 4 beseech acting as means to find them, I mainly use beseech though, to make sure that the board is first and foremost under control. Finding myself either therapy, deed, Ghost quarter, etc. For whatever is needed to keep the board under control.
But anyways, just wanted to share this with those that's interested with the deck. I am still upset for accidentally closing the wrong tab as it had such a nice long detailed post of my matches. *sigh* I would re type them again, but it just doesn't feel good to do so anymore.
Well that's it, hopefully I don't make the same mistake twice.
EDIT: Woot! Safe!
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Which their cost is at 3, 4, and 15.
Although it could cause conflict with top, for those that runs it, it looks like it can help grind out things, which also helps buy us some time to set up. Has anyone tried this one?
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Thanks Darth Monkey
who is this? I haven't been to COD for a while, but i've been at the wednesday dekalb night every week at 6. i'd love to help you test.
jason
edit..
fixed
My problem I am having is that there's not really anyone I can talk to outside of forums, that has quite some knowledge playing control decks that doesn't run blue. As most players I see in the places I go to are usually Bant, CounterTop, and 4c Landstill players. There's one guy, called Craig that plays at CoD, that plays Mono Black Control, but I don't see the guy much. Though last time I saw him, he took a look at the deck and he really liked it.
All I am really doing is browsing through pages and pages of ages past, reading through dead and inactive threads of other websites and reading about other decks that holds some similarities with my deck, and get some idea from there, see what results they come up with, and what they struggle with, apply it to mine, and do some testing from there. Like other decks such as TrainWreck, Rock, and by a small degree of similarities... Pox.
But mainly just trial and error, and some tests at MWS before trying to bring it to a tournament. There are other people, although extremely few, trying the Gamekeeper shell as well, but the differences in the shell, and so few players playing it makes it difficult. Kinda like how a discussion with pox can be control or aggro, except players testing the the different shells are mainly just themselves, Which makes it difficult. So yes, I wouldn't mind more people to play test against.
Currently, I am trying to see if Funeral Charm, which acts as an additional form to force the opponent to top deck mode, and also as means of killing those Noble Heirarchs from bant thats so popular in the meta would be a good addition to the deck.
Currently testing this shell, which I would give a run this coming week.
//Lands (24)
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou (Plan to be Bayou Currently Tainted Wood)
3 Snow-covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
//Library Manipulation (7)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Beseech the Queen
//Creatures (5)
3 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Protection (12)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
//Board Control (11)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
//Alternate Win-condition (1)
1 Haunting Echoes vs 1 Worm Harvest
//Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void (Plan to be Leyline Currently Tormod)
4 Coffin Purge
3 Unmask
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sadistic Sacrament
Funeral Charm is acting as my possible discard 13-15, while being a possible creature removal should the need arise. But mainly it's addition is to further my plan on forcing the opponent to top deck, it's form of versatility is pretty nice too.
Haunting Echoes vs Worm Harvest. Since it is just an alternate win-con I am looking for, when Haunting Echoes connect, between the sweepers and discards that hit the opponent they pretty much scoop, But also does depend if I can nail their win cons. Worm Harvest, while slow, acts as nice last resort means of winning should the Gamekeeper plan be stopped, and from 1 gamekeeper trigger, worm harvest can get big fairly fast.
Bojuka Bog Several people have mentioned this card already, and if I abandon the Haunting Echoes Alt-win, this can find the room, though I dislike the CitpT part as I don't really want anything to hinder my first 3 turns of play, which to me is really important. So I am weighting its value between its pros and cons.
Sideboard fluctuates a bit, but mainly focused on ANT and Reanimator, as I had a good fighting chance against the decks I played, but those two are just very difficult.
But for now the main change is the Funeral Charms, those that have experience using it, do they serve their porpose well of being an additional discard to compliment the main ones? Or are they just too weak usually?
Previous post I talked about Culling Scales, I figured that it is too slow, but wanted to see how it performs on actual play. I used proxied representation of it, and pretty much, after a deed and or some bloods, I would much rather have a tutor or win-condition now, than drag the game a bit more. Perhaps playing it against aggro when no deeds are present is good, but also depends on how fast the aggro deck can load up on pressure, but coming down on turn 3 means I need to wipe the board now not over time. which LastManStanding was exactly on about.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
i've been playing rockish control decks for years btw, black's always been my favorite color. after seeing you first post this thread, i immediatly ordered a set of foil gamekeepers.. just got them a few days ago. i'll probaby put this together and put it to the test in dekalb next wed.
i work 3rd shift in aurora, near I88/Rt59, how far away are you? maybe we could meet up to test/discuss before i go to work some night.
I was testing Worm Harvest earlier, just several brief games, before I decided to go to the card store, sometimes, even if Gamekeeper whiffs and misses emrakul, and no cabal therapy in sight either, when Worm Harvest is in the grave I could actually proceed with the worm harvest plan, and when Emrakul comes out, I dont have to worry about any top decked edict effects. Plus just as you mentioned, can bait some counters as well, and be played over and over. So yeah I am going with Worm Harvest now instead of Haunting Echoes. Besides, its kinda annoying as well, having to search opponent's library for every single copies, which takes some time away from the match clock.
It's not usually a problem, finishing my matches on time, as a matter of fact I can finish the game in a couple turns once the coast is clear. Problem is that some opposing decks just plays so slow, so the time spent on Haunting Echoes can actually bite you.
I'll be testing how Funeral Charm turns out, seems pretty good in theory but needed some testing with it first. Though acting as discard 13-15, and being as an additional answer to a turn 1 lackey on back of innocent bloods is looking pretty sweet at the moment.
I am on Rosemont, literally like 5 minutes away from O'hare airport, and the convention center, where ACEN (Anime Central) is being held is within walking distance for me as well.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
The tournament was a 5 rounds of swiss, where I took 2nd place. I was unable to write down what I boarded in/out each games so I am just summarizing stuff as I see them in the notes.
Round 1: Vs Paul, piloting some black deck.
Game 1:
This very first game, I remember keeping a hand with a Forest and a Swamp and Sensei's Divining Top, along with several pairs of discards. However, beyond turn 2, I was stucked on only 1 green mana and 1 black mana for the next 3 or 4 turns after that, while an Abyssal Persecutor is attacking me. He complained after the match that he made some sort of play error, but I was mana screwed and I don't make any excuses. So I forfeited and just shuffled a lot for game 2.
Game 2:
He met a heavy bombardment of hand destruction, and tried to play some creatures which was just met with Innocent blood. When all was safe, I used beseech the queen to find my win-con, he scooped shortly after Emrakul hitting play. Saying something that he won't let me have the satisfaction... okay, I guess, more time for me to enjoy walking around later.
Game 3:
I recall, keeping a hand of 2 hymns a top, and an innocent blood. His hand was depleted to nothing very quickly, and I then proceed to dropping Gamekeeper, therapy chained into more until I come across Emrakul. He made a lot of fuss on where I am getting the Gamekeepers, how am I paying for those therapies. I was like, I explained it to him on game 2 when I first did it, I even handed him the cards but he didn't want to read them and just want me to tell him (again) what they do... but anyways, I won the match. Current standing 1-0
Round 2: Vs Russel (No notes taken this round)
I am not really sure what happened on this match, my notes is all empty, and life totals just all say scoop, with either of us losing a single health. Game 2 was the same, it says I was down to 19 and he was down to 18 before he scooped, I guess I may have attacked with a Gamekeeper and chained from there. But regardless, I am a bit puzzled why there was no notes on this. Current standing 2-0
During the break time I have, I was joined by the people I had met earlier, when I was playing free for all matches with them. They were asking me if I was playing Dredge, but I told them I was just playing the deck I am working on. We then just talked about our matches, and random stuff, and one of the guy's from College of Dupage, Wayne, giving some advises by one of the guys I was talking with about his goblin deck. After he walked away, I told the people I was talking with that I hope I don't get paired up with him because he's a really good player. But he's very nice also and pretty friendly.
Round 3 was called and I was paired up with the guy I was hoping I don't play against... I was like what? Really? Damn. I am unsure what deck he was playing with until we started, I could have asked the guys I was talking with, since he played against one of them, what his deck was so I could have had some idea how to approach it, but I feel that it's kinda wrong to do so, so I didn't bother.
Round 3: Vs Wayne piloting Zoo
Game 1:
This game was rather bloody, or atleast for me as he kept pounding away at my health, while I focus on depleting his hand to 0. His only life loss he was taking was from his own fetchlands, that dropped him to 18. While my health dropped from 20 > 16 > 12 > 8 > 7 (broke a fetch) > 5. Around 5 health, and his Hand was empty, I dropped a Gamekeeper to be a chump blocker, I was worried about him top decking a Path to Exile or something, but chances of it happening I felt is something I could gamble on. He attacked (which dropped me to 2 life left later) and I blocked resulting me to come across Emrakul. He seems to have drawn Lightning Helix, but couldn't play it since he was stucked to 1 land due to my Hymn to Tourach in the earlier turns. He scooped saying that that was close, and I laughed in agreement.
Game 2:
Notes says I was at 20 and hes at 19, followed by the notes saying scoop. By from memory, I recalled using the cards Unmask, Therapy and Innocent blood early on. I then dropped Gamekeeper, but he tried to kill it a Path to Exile, and I told him that I have priority. He jumped the gun a little too quick, which I then know what to name with Therapy after Gamekeeper's ability finished resolving. He scooped after this. Current standing 3-0
I did the usual, packing my stuff and fixing my deck to how it is supposed to be before boarding. Then I went to the organizer to report the match. There was several guys by the organizer's table asking if I was "Frank" and they wanted to know what I am playing with. I think they're a friend of my Round 3 opponent. I asked the player, the one that's really interested what I am playing, asking him what his record is, he said he's 3-0. I don't want to tell him, what I am playing because since we're both 3-0, there's a chance we might play against each other. So I refused to tell him.
I walked outside a bit, see how one of my friends are doing with his Guilty Gear: Accent Core matches, and he seems to be doing just fine. I walked around a bit, talking to one of the girls cosplaying a character I do not recognize, and then went back 5 minutes before the next match begins. When I came back the guys that was asking what I am playing with, or mainly the guy that's currently 3-0, said that he found out I am using Gamekeeper. I asked how he found out, he said he just called his friend that was my Round 3 opponent.
I talked to the guys I was playing multi-player with earlier and I told them, that I hope I don't play against that I guy that knows my deck already. But one of them played against him and I was asking what that guy's deck is, in case I play against him, so I know what to name with Cabal Therapy. But he didn't wanna tell me coz he said it's not right, but he knows my deck though. So I just think to myself, I hope I don't play against him.
Round 4 was called, and I was paired against Jason. The guy that I was hoping not to play and so... again... I was like... what? Really? Damn.
Round 4: vs Jason piloting UR Painter's Servant combo
Game 1:
I managed to deplete his hand to 0 very quickly, and I am now just searching for my win-con with Sensei's Divining Top. His hand is empty, he has nothing relevant on play, and I am now just searching for my win-condition. But the deck is throwing tantrum at me and I am revealing with my top, 2 other tops, which slowed me down a huge deal and I was unable to capitalize on my board advantage. Due to having 2 tops being revealed constantly with my SDT. Eventually, the opponent top decked an Academy Ruins and he also apperantly have Tormod's Crypt that he would use to respond to Emrakul's trigger, after activating the whole painters/Grindstone combo. I lost this match, but I was very upset with how the deck just decided to roll over for many turns, when I had secured board position and opponent had 0 cards in hand. *Sigh*
Game 2:
I lost this match due to not being careful, I should have won this match but I didn't due to not being careful. I started with a Sensei's Divining Top, and I attacked his hand with a duress the next turn. but he Brainstormed and put the important stuff on top. I had in my hand also another duress and Sadistic Sacrament andd rew a Hymn to Tourach a turn after. The Sacrament ran into a Force of Will, where had I just waited a couple of turns for him to draw out his "good" cards that he hid away with brainstorm, I could have had protected my Sacrament, as he apparently only have 2 pieces of one of the combo pieces. Had I just waited for him to draw out his good cards, before going off with Sacrament unprotected I could have won. I managed to get him down to 0 cards, but I was racing vs his academy ruin's bringing back what he had lost. He's trying to get 3 pieces in play: Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and find a Tormod's Crypt. I am just looking for Gamekeeper, I manged to find it, but sadly it was a turn too late. I then just conceded the match, and wished him well on his match. Regardless, he was a really nice guy, and we were even giving each other high five when we both have 2 SDT in play, lol. We then played a few more matches just for fun after our actual match. Current standing 3-1
Round 5: Vs John Piloting UW Control deck
Game 1:
My opponent's deck actually packs in a lot of relevant cards, and some cards to a certain degree are relevant as well. 1cc Exile cards, Oblivion Rings, Day of Judgement, Martial Coup. Game 1 was pretty fast, as he depleted to 0 cards in hand very quickly, he was unable to top deck an answer to Emrakul, but I was saving a Funeral Charm to be used just to buy me that turn I needed to make sure he's protected.
Game 2:
I chained into Gamekeepers, and went through all 3 Gamekeepers before Emrakul came out. Opponent was in top deck mode as he has 0 cards in hand, and no way to Manipulate the library. Or at least none in play, but he managed to playing a big Martial Coup thanks to some help of Everflowing Chalice. Seeing as all my Gamekeeper's are gone, I was thinking if it's possible to make a come back with my last resort win-con with is the Worm Harvest. Looking at the clock by those tokens, and thinking that since I needed to: 1)Find Worm Harvest and 2) Get some lands in the yard. It's not possible so I just scooped.
Game 3:
This was a very long dragged out match, as he side boarded in more cards for me he added some Flash Freeze as well. It's a long drag out match with my hand discard + sweeper and SB (Unmask and sacrament) vs his all his counter magic, sideboard cards, and sweepers and O-rings. I made sure to discard his hand to 0 first, and later came into Duress, he later played Mind Spring which made him back to 7 cards. But I also saw 2 hymns back to back with SDT. His hand went down to 0 again fast. I managed to secure my win and finish the match just right before match was called. I told my opponent that that was one heck of a match, and he has so much cards that I needed to get rid of. Current Standing 4-1.
After all the points were calculated. They announced who got what. I took 2nd place and won my self some duel box and a bunch of packs. It was a very fun experience, and most of the people I met were very nice. I now don't mind the people examining my deck since the tournament is now over. Overall, it was a very fun experience, and I hoped everyone had fun too.
EDIT: This was my decklist, not much canged though from my previous list.
//Lands (24)
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tainted Wood ( Would one day be Bayou)*
3 Snow-covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
//Library Manipulation (7)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Beseech the Queen
//Creatures (5)
3 Gamekeeper
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Protection (12)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
//Board Control (11)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
//Alternate Win-condition (1)
1 Worm Harvest
//Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Unmask
4 Coffin Purge
4 Tormod's Crypt (Would one day be Leyline of the Void)*
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sadistic Sacrament
*Currently on a tight budget so I am only able to get minor upgrades a few at a time.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
sucks about the guy finding out your deck, and no one would tell you about his. he totally had an unfair advantage, knowing that he had to hit a crypt before going off.
in rockish decks, i've found 3 tops to be the right number. this may have helped one of your matches.
i'm still not so hot for beeseach the queen.. i much prefer living wish in that spot. it's one (or more) mana less, and more versitile. please expalin in detail why you picked it over wish.
i'm also curious about the unmaskes. is that just a carry over habbit from playing dredge for so long? i don't like the card disadvantage. personally, i'm playing 4 thoughtseize main, and 2 duress sideboard. and those are for combo/control.
also curious about the funeral charms.. how good were they? in what situations? i currently have 3 dark depths in those slots, with 1 depths, 1 hexmage, 1 eternal witness as additional wish targets.
but i'm thinking about cutting that package.. doing too much? maybe dark rituals would be better, as turn one therapy (force) and turn 2 gamekeeper is an amazing play. have you tested with dark rits?
i haven't tried the loam thing either, thats another possibility for those slots.
i don't really have a lot of time to test, as i work full time, go to school full time, and i've got 3 kids. but i'll play it this wednesday. what do you think a good wish board would be? i havne't completed my board yet. i usually face a lot of agrocontrol, and there's ususally one ANT player and one Goblins player.
edit...
whole new direction.. you're always having trouble finding your gamekeeper right? and top just doesnt' cut it have the time, right? so what about adding brainstorms and ponders? they're the best diggeres i know of. not enough blue to support force, just a splash. would look something like this..
4 b/g fetch
4 b/u fetch
1 tropical island
1 bayou
4 underground sea
5 swamp
1 forest
2 island
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thoughtsieze
4 cabal therapy
4 hymn to torach
4 pernicious deeds
3 gamekeeper
2 emrakul
3 open slots (smother/living wish/engineered explosives?)
??? what do you think ???
He plays other decks, I rarely get paired up against him, and one time I got paired against him, he was playing a white stax, when I was playing Enchantress, and during that match I was the one that made some silly mistakes, playing Utopia Sprawl, and drawing a bunch of cards and forgetting about Trinisphere. It happens.
Well that was fine honestly, my only disappointment came from the SDT revealing two other SDTs and I am trying to find some sort of shuffle effect just to get moving so I can come across my win-con faster since the opportunity is present, coast was clear, he had 0 cards in hand, and nothing relevant in play and all I needed was to find my win-con. But after many turns of just draw-go, unable to get a shuffle effect, he dropped an academy ruins and that was that. Game 2, was heavily my fault throwing a sadistic sacrament, missing the potential SDT switch with top and play force. Where as had I just focused on my initial game plan on just depleting the opponent's hand to 0 first and then do it. But since I decided to not follow my usual game plan, I have no one else to blame but myself for that one, lol.
I'll get into this a little bit later, after covering your other questions.
Thoughtseize is fine, if that card is working out for you. Especially since you have a way to handle some things should the scenario arise, like seeing Academy Ruins in their hand, or cards like Karakas. I just went for Duress since I don't really mind creatures coming into play, I just want to nail specific things that can affect my win-con, such as 1cc exile cards, O-rings, wraths and so on. Creatures I can deal with innocent blood or deed, or have gamekeeper act somewhat like a moat. I don't really mind getting hit a few times either as I like nailing several things with deed. Besides, even though I may say that, between the fetchlands and the thoughtseizes I will be losing a lot of health, and I feel that it is just not needed. Maybe this falls under player comfort as well?
Unmasks purpose, at first for me, is to NOT try and stop ANT, because it cant, but to slow them down, and follow up with more hand discard to keep slowing them down until I can find my win-con. However, I have been considering replacing the Unmasks with Chalice of the Voids. Dropping them for 0 and focus on the gameplan of wiping their hand, or slow them down enough till you can tutor for a Sadistic Sacrament. However, for the moment Unmasks have proven hot for me actually, as it gives me more chance of turn 1 discard. Chalice though definitely warrants being in the deck as it helps against a lot of matches. Chalice at 1 when needed wont really hurt your Gamekeeper/Therapy plan either.
Honestly, they haven't really performed very well at all. The creatures I often come across are all to big for them to kill, though it is hot against goblins. But between goblins and Zoo, I have a bigger chance to come across Zoo. They haven't been useful at all to me yet, but I may give them a little bit more time and testing before I totally throw them off. But for the moment, the card has been pretty poor for me and not many situations I could use them in.
I dont really think you are doing too much at all, Dark Depths plan can be easily added to the deck. However, whenever I think about Dark Depths, There's always this argument, and a good one too, to why not just focus on Rock style build with 4 Living Wish, and 3-4 Dark Depths plan, opening up a possible 1-2 more slots to the deck. I think Dark depths plan is indeed strong as well, but from MWS testings, as I do not possess the cards at all in real life, and would normally test first before getting the cards. The fact that Dark Depths does not produce black, is not good for my game plan. To me, how early and how fast you disrupt the opponent is pretty critical, at least for me. What I do during turn 1 and turn 2 matters a lot, at least for me.
Yes, I tested Dark Rituals as well, but to fully utilize the card I feel that either the Beseech or the Top needs to go, but mainly the beseech would probably go. I tested the card by flipping the beseech cards inside the sleeves backwards, so they show up as blanks. I pretend they are beseech but also keep a note in my mind that they can potentially be a dark ritual. There has definitely been some situations where 1st turn duress + hymn took place. But it's not so bad to just duress turn 1, and hymn follow up on turn 2 either. However, what made me cut them was this... past turn 3 when flipping through your cards with SDT, and where dark Rituals no longer matter. You have 3 other SDTs and all those dark rituals you are trying to avoid seeing with top. I know seeing two tops with your top is already painful enough. Just like the situation that happened on my 4th match. Giving the opponent an ample time to stabilize.
Of all the game I have played so far, there has not a single match I came across where I had wished that anyone of my cards was a LftL. If you are planning on using it with the cycling lands, It would be a really strong draw engine, but not something for this deck. The deck wants to bombard the opponent with discards turns 1 and 2, or play Innocent bloods early. If anything I would much rather have additional strong turn 1 discard effects.
When you build the deck, you may have your own play style and may even have different approach on doing things. Where as I feel what you do during turn 1 and turn 2, may be completely different from my approach. I am not sure what your shell would be with the Living Wish in the deck, but I wouldn't get overboard with Living wish and try to have such a large wishboard. I would probably dedicate 3-4 wish boards at most. One of the Wish targets being a way to handle problematic lands such as Karakas.
About Beseech the Queen...
First I would like to add, that what I really wish that this card would be, but sadly is beyond my reach due to it's heavy price tag, is the card called Grim Tutor. But I don't think the card store in my area even carries the card, not like I could afford it anyways. But anyways, back on topic and to justify my choice for Beseech...
I honestly, from further Testing, and from matches played, would prefer to have the 4th one in, instead of current 4:3 split between top and tutor. The card helps me further progress my game.
1) Getting the extra help needed for that push to keep attacking the opponent's hand, before dropping Gamekeeper, usually either with Duress or Hymn to Tourach. To see if the coast is clear and can drop Gamekeeper and follow up with a flashback.
2) Sometimes when getting ready to go off, I have a feeling that a singleton Cabal Therapy in the grave will have a fairly high chance to fail and chain into another Gamekeeper without hitting another Therapy. I would use beseech to grab another therapy, just to ensure a smooth chaining. Sometimes though, depending on wether I may need the Cabal Therapy if I know the cards in their hand, I may just grab another gamekeeper instead which is a much smoother chain.
3) It can, should the situation arise, be used to help grab a land that can produce green mana. While this is extremely rare, I can see it possible with so many decks packing Wastelands. Which is also so one of the reasons why I opted for a heavy basic build.
4) Karakas is a major pain, and stops Karakas dead in his tracks. It is also the reason why I added 1 land which I can tutor for should the need for it arise. 1 tutorable answer for such a card that stops us dead cold, 1 slot, not really much of a problem. Specially since we can tutor for it. This has been done one time so far and I was glad of having such a possible play, though it was not really against a karakas. Though if somehow all else fail, we just, in a couple turns amass over 20+ worms as our last resort.
5) Pernicious Deed is good, really good, helps stabilize the board, when needed. While there's is already 4 in the deck, sometimes even with SDT, and shuffle effects its not really enough to help find it.
6) With some help of SDT as well as the Beseech, when we deplete the opponent's hand to 0. We want to capitalize on that opportunity to grab our Gamekeeper and go for the win. This happens very frequently actually.
7) Helps me grab the silver bullet I brought in from the sideboard, mainly for such cards as Sadistic Sacrament. Since it's not really a card I want to devote a big sideboard slot for, but want some means of being able to use it for the matches that gets wrecked by it.
The tutor has been really hot for me, I actually want to make it a 4-off but I think 3 is enough. If anything, Grim Tutor is what I really wish the card would be. What the wish could do, I feel that I can also get the same result with just grabbing what I need that's already in there for me. While having a good sum of sideboard for what is needed.
Funeral Charm on the other hand, has been close to useless from testing and actual play. Though it had caught people off guard when I use the card in response to their spell when they're down to nothing but 2 cards. But other than that the card has really been underwhelming for me, but I have not tested the card thorough enough.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
The blue splash, I'll be completely honest, I can't dismiss the idea since I have not really tested it at all. But I am just envisioning the splash in my meta, I can see a pretty risky result specially since Wasteland and Stifle are very common. It does however give you a good possibility for Engineered Explosives, as mentioned.
The man land plan
If it's working out for you then that is good, there's nothing wrong with having them as a fall back plan either. For me, however, I've never really gotten to a point where I had wished I have them. By man lands you must be referring about either Mishra's Factory and/or Treetop Village correct? I don't like how one is just colorless, and the other comes into play tapped. For me the most important turns are how you interact with the opponent during the first several turns. The said lands hinders me from consistently attacking my opponent's hand. Though it can be balanced out by running Dark Ritual, that is, however, trying to force some slots, just for those scenario. But finding my self out of steam and top deck them and/or revealing those rituals with SDTs, along side trying to worry other SDTs popping up is really worry some. If the man lands is working for you though that's good, but due to my play preference and shell, I don't really need the man land plan, nor have I ever got to the point of hoping I have them. It also makes cards like swords and exiles relevant, as normally when I see them, I leave them alone and make the opponent discard something else. They don't really do anything against Gamekeeper. Where as running the man land plan, you can't totally ignore them as they can use them to nail your lands. So for me, I leave the those swords and exiles alone, and just discards his others, leaving him with irrelevant cards. Unless there's really nothing else to be named.
Beseech the Queen vs Living Wish
This really depends on the shell you are running, if you opted to go with the Dark Depths plan then it really should be included. However, just like the reasons I gave about Beseech. I feel that the things I need to take care of can already be taken care of in the main decked. Where you would wish for your answer, I would tutor for mine, without costing me precious sideboard slots. Though I could see some added versatility for the deck for some situations, what I can tutor for however, can pretty much answer the things I come across. I've tried wish on my earlier testing, and it was just simply cut, it was, however, tested with my own shell, not the shell that runs man lands. Finding my win-cons between either drawing them, Searching with fetch/SDT or simply wishing for them has never really been a problem. There are just some games where your deck will just rollover and not do what you want. Every deck goes through that.
Emrakul vs Progenitus
Both are big, both are a huge threat. The situations where Emrakul has problems, Progenitus shines. However, Progenitus also will have difficulty on other things where Emrakul also shines. The annihilator 6, is what I am really after, though his other abilities are dead close to it as well. The cards that can answer Emrakul, we also already have an answer for as well. They are both strong, but Emrakul has not let me down yet. If you wanted though you could, maybe do a split between the two. In case you ever get to the point where you may want to drop another gamekeeper along side your win con or another gamekeeper in play.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
if you're always playing dredge and enchantress, you sound like Eon (sp?). Same guy?
for better top-ing, i suggest 8-10 fetches.
dark depths- i was just thinking about an alternate win conditions. and it shouldn't ever effect your turn one black, as you should never count them as lands. i was playing 24 lands + 3 depths. but i think i'll just focus on the game keeper plan for now. i just got the depths a week or two ago, thats why i'm all hot about them.
dark rit- also helps power out quick deeds, which can be HUGE vs an ealry rush from goblines or zoo. it doesn't have to take a tutor spot.
here's what i've got built right now, but i haven't tested this build either...
2 infernal contract
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 therapy
4 inocent blood
4 deeds
3 living wish
3 gamekeeper
2 emrakul
4 b/w fetch
4 b/g fetch
7 swamp
1 forest
4 bayou
3 wasteland
1 phyrexian tower (could be quicksand)
needs to be cut down
1 bojuka bog
1 wasteland
1 quicksand
1 eternal witness
1 gamekeeper
1 faeire macabre
1 shriekmaw
1 gatekeeper of malakir
2-3 perish
2-3 choke
2 duress
4 leyline of the void
2 extirpate
the infernal contracts could be dark depths, or something else. just thought it would be nice to actually draw some juice.. i've a lot of experience with eva green, and it always sucks hitting topdeck mode with no threat, after wiping your opponents hand.
other thoughts were summoners pact and crop rotaions.
but like i said, i could use some help cutting down the board to essentials, i'm not used to playing a wish board.
anyway,
quicksand is just another, uncounterable, tutorable, way of killing gatekeeper. also, it could possibly actually kill a creature when needed. main thing is that i only own one phyrexian tower, which i think is a worthy inclusion.
zappa1 was right, we shouldn't be too concerned with creatures, so swithcing thoughtseize with duress might be a possibility. then there woundn't be too much pain. but i've played suicide decks for a long time, so you'll have to come up with a better argument that pain, to make me swithch the contracts. not saying i won't... i've never actually played them before... and i know they're the weekest link. i just thought that in a combo deck like this, knowing how fast our own hand is going to go empty, that it would be nice to restock. i'm VERY open to sugestions, but please something other than lilliana.. shes much too slow. i can't even find room for her in my EDH or casual decks.
at least 4 of our regulars are busy practacing for san juan. i guess the first beautiful day and summer vacation in a college town got the rest.
i was able to play several games vs goblins and u/b/g countertop-depths.
aside from a few games that i was stuck on 2 lands (even then i won off multiple dark rits), this deck really performed. much better than i had hoped.
i am completely convinced now that dark rits are absolutly necessary. they were very hot vs goblins.. being able to blow deeds early. one play that i remember clearly vs the countertop deck, was as follows...
i had an opening hand of swamp, fetch, dark rit, therapy, gamekeeper, 2x hymn. on the play, i therapy nameing force. i see something like 2x land, bob, counterballance, hexmage, brainstorm, and ?. he plays land go. i play dark rit, and playing cautiously, play a hymn, thinking i'd like to clear his hand and keep my keeper on the off chance he could brainstorm into a counter. of course he did.. and forced the hymn. then i hymed again with the foating mana and from my second land drop. i proceed to draw well and end the game.
another game, he double dazed my gamekeeper, but i had another one plus a living wish in hand.
i was never sorry to see a living wish either.. saved me a few times. especially when i had gotten down to like 2 life vs goblins and he had a mog fanatic in play. i searched up a shriekmaw, then swung with emrakul (he had 7 permanents prior to killing the fanatic).
a few of the goblin games were ruff because of warren weirding, but i kept nameing it with therapy and hitting it second with thoughtseize (first i had to hit earwig squad a few times).
and i would NOT have thought this.. but i actually drew and played infernal contract 4 or 5 times... won me the game every time. not really worried about life when you'll probably be winning the next turn or the one after that. i know its an odd choice, but i suggest tring it.. was very hot for me and i love the card now.
the single basic forest both helped (vs goblins wastelands) and hurt (stuck on one swamp and one forest). the pherexian tower seemed like a good idea, but i never actaully used it. may be a better wish target.
a second win condition is definatly needed though... i'm fearful of a earwig squad connecting, or a humility. all in all, it was a really fun and powerful deck to pilot
thoughts? comments?
EDIT: from your previous post, no I am not Eon.
As for your alternate Win-con you can go with cards like:
Worm Harvest
Liliana Vess
Not really sure what other good non-creature will be good for an alternate win-con, I currently just run Worm Harvest, but I have not gotten to a situation where I needed to resort to it as my fall back plan. I've been thinking about it, but it's just 1 slot, that's nice to be there should the need for it arise. 20+ worm tokens in a matter of a couple turns isn't really nothing to scoff at either.
If goblins are worrying you, and you think that you'll see it alot, just pack in some Engineered Plague in the side. Or Contagion if you really need to have fast answers.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
i really don't think we should be too concerned with life total in this deck. it's just another resource that we use. it doesn't matter if you win with 20 life, or 1 life (which i did).
it's not that long, and you'll get a few good ideas. let me know when you've done that, and some testing, and we can bounce some ideas off eachother based on our testing.