So, are you suggesting the deck is some kind of MB Aggro-Control ?
I'm not sure I can think of a real MBC except Discard (& Pox?) maybe.
If you have some examples of other MBC I'm interested.
I might learn one or two things from it
Yes. It's much more like MB A-C. 'Real' MBC would be something of the form...
Yeah, that's right, this is called MBC but current list is BAD. I play MBC for many years (from the times of odissey) so i can tell that, from my experience, you can't play mono black CONTROL without phyrexian arena and dark rituals ;).
The list isn't bad. You don't need Dark Ritual or Phyrexian Arena. Rather, the former really shouldn't be in anyform of control. The reason being is that if you draw it early, all it does is give you a temporary speed boost. And if you're control, just how are you going to exploit that? (In control, the only time I can see that being worthwhile is against combo, where you might need some explosive start. But that's negated by the following). It's a dead draw mid/late game.
Arena isn't that bad, and you can run it in control. Without D.Rit, its inclusion becomes a bit more debatable. I personally don't like it because you're limited in what you get. Skeletal Scrying and Staff of Domination give you more cards when you want them. Both also have other functions.
Why no Contamination + Bitterblossom? Someone suggested this a couple pages back, but the comment was neglected. I think that the combo-lock is one of the most persuasive reasons to play MBC. Also, would Pox/Smallpox in conjunction with Sinkhole and Crucible of Worlds have a place here? Lastly, what's the verdict on Dark Confidant? It seems to me like one of the best sources of card advantage in black.
Why no Contamination + Bitterblossom? Someone suggested this a couple pages back, but the comment was neglected. I think that the combo-lock is one of the most persuasive reasons to play MBC.
That is true. I never really thought of it in traditional MBC (though, it seems like it would be a nice fit in Faeries. Will need to try both out).
I guess you can still call that MBC, though Pox seems to have it's own label. I'm not entirely sure why (probably from Pox + land destruction, which TMBC doesn't really pack).
A little different, i like korlash as my finisher...no evasion but he can get huge and is hard to get rid of.Additionally combined with volrath's i can continue to thin 2 swamps out of my deck.Shriekmaw with volrath's is also nice and can double as a win condition.
Land base is questionable for sure, i don't have many double black sources but i think i am trying to do too much.Factories are out...i really have to treat coffers as a colorless source in the opening hand, even wastelands will be difficult to run.
Seriously considering buying the deck on MTGO, seems like it has great game against combo and MWS is so frustrating...had someone leave after a first turn duress.
how is this cheap? just in your mana base is over 250$ and your SB is over 100. yes your spells arent to much $$ or your creatures. but thats over 350 for the mana and side. dredge is cheaper then that, goblins is cheap too. how is burn that $$ the only money in the deck is chain lightning and PoP.
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currently playing:
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
I'm definitely gonna try a variation of this deck on MWS. Though I'll reduce land count (-1 Coffers, -1 Volrath's Stronghold). Also, I'll be using 3 x Beseech the Queen and because of that I'll run less Arenas and less Consume Spirit. One interesting card that I think works well with Shriekmaw and Korlash is Grim Discovery. You can also add some type of cycling land (like Barren Moor) or simply fetchlands so you can return land + creature from graveyard.
Eh...I think that falls more under the line of 'cute tricks'. I tried messing around with Undead Gladiator back a bit, and it was underwhelming. Both on the board and as a cycling engine.
I'm really excited about the idea of a MBC deck in Legacy, as I've been playing MBC in pauper with quite a bit of success abusing Tortured Existence and Dimir House Guard. Here's just a quick list adapted from my pauper deck:
I have not tested this deck in any way yet, but from my experience with MBC in pauper, the biggest weakness is starting slow against fast decks while the biggest strength is a very strong late game against creature-based decks. I hope to counteract this speed-deficiency with plenty of cheap disruption (Innocent Blood, Snuff Out, Hymn, etc.). 4 is the magic CMC in this deck, as Tortured Existence and Dimir House Guard (DHG) turn any creature drawn into a tutor for CMC 4 (Hence the single maindeck Unmask, Damnation, Disk, etc.)
I'm definitely gonna try a variation of this deck on MWS. Though I'll reduce land count (-1 Coffers, -1 Volrath's Stronghold). Also, I'll be using 3 x Beseech the Queen and because of that I'll run less Arenas and less Consume Spirit. One interesting card that I think works well with Shriekmaw and Korlash is Grim Discovery. You can also add some type of cycling land (like Barren Moor) or simply fetchlands so you can return land + creature from graveyard.
why cut volraths for grim discovery, they both serve the same purpose but volrath allows you to run more spells.I did cut down to 3 coffers.Shriekmaws have really not worked well for me so far, i find them underwhelming...there are too many artifact/black creatures in this format.
Thoughts on consuming vapors?The obvious application is against NO decks.
I've played Pox for a long time...my older build ran Nyxathid. He was pretty strong, but bloodghast turned out better for pox. In here I think he could shine.
Also, of you are looking for a more controlling creature, Hypnotic specter is still excellent when you can get it out on T1 or T2. I personally think it is better in legacy than nighthawk, especially considering how much removal is in the deck already.
Here is my current Pox/aggro build for comparison. My deck is more aggro-orriented than traditional crucible-pox, but more controlling than the deck posted here.
My buddy runs a Red/Black discard deck that uses Tombstalker, Nyxathid, and The Rack as finishers. It's fairly solid and wins its fair share of games. That said, I personally prefer Pox.
Elminister- Nice list, though I would add Damnation as soon as you can get them. They're the best Black mass removal, hands down. I'd also add a Haunting Echoes, as it can cripple most decks. You should be able to get a M10 one for cheap.
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Current Decks
Legacy: :symu::symb: Reanimator + :symu::symr::xmana: Sneak and Show + :symb::symr::symg: Punishing Jund Modern: :symu::symb::symr: Reanimator + :symr::symg: Tron + :symu::symr: Twin
Hey I have a question for you guys.
I'm working on a standard mbc and hippy seemed like an auto-include. I use him in my legacy mba, and I see him in these legacy mbc builds. So my question is why does he work so well in legacy, the land of much creature removal and counters, but not used in standard? Which has just as much removal and almost as much counter. haha
Do you guys think he deserves a spot in standard mbc?
Answer fast enough? As in the first 10 turns? haha
Dark rit is good, but it doesn't make cards worse not having it.
Standard and legacy both have many many 1 and 2cc removal, so your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense.
Lightning bolt is ubiquitous in standard...it is not in legacy. Legacy decks run much less spot removal than standard decks.
Furthermore, as magicmilton point out, a T1 Hippie will immediately start eating away at their hand. T1 Hippie, T2 Hymn is almost always gg if they have no responses, since you have devastated their hand; don't underestimate the power of random discard
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Current favorite decks:
Standard
Blows
Modern BWUTeachingsBWU GUGU TempoGU WLifeW RWValakut ControlRW UBModern MillUB
Legacy UMUCU BPoxB BWRTokensBWR
Pauper UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
Lightning bolt is ubiquitous on standard...it is not in legacy. Legacy decks run much less spot removal than standard.
Furthermore, as magicmilton point out, a T1 Hippie will immediately start eating away at their hand. T1 Hippie, T2 Hymn is almost always gg if they have no responses, since you have devastated their hand at random.
Dark rit is good, I love it, and I love dropping one first turn for a hippy. Basically what you're saying is that hippy without dark rit isn't worth playing at all just because you can't drop it first turn? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. haha
As for the 1-2cc removal/counter in legacy here's a list off the top of my head.
FoW
Path to Exile
Bolts
Helix
Fireblast
Tribal Flames
Chain Lightning
Swords to Plowshares
Counterspell
Daze
Smother
And I'm sure I'm missing a lot more. haha Not to mention removal that is more than 2cc.
So how can you justify playing hippy in legacy and not standard by saying that legacy doesn't have answers for it?
I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, I really am interested as to why he works in legacy and not standard. So far the reasons mentioned hasn't answered it for me.
Of course there is 1cc removals but if the opponent doesn't have some in hands, or don't use it immediately, it's a deadly T1.
Whenever you play a card your opponent is "forced" to answer to avoid a loss is a good play. Tarmogoyf is the perfect incarnation of that.
So does that mean you're for hippy in a standard mbc? haha
Basically all I'm trying to find out is if he's worthy to play in standard. He's going to eat removal in any format, doesn't matter what turn he comes down on, dark rit or not.
Hippie is great against control and combo decks, less great against aggro decks. In T2 I would probably rather drop a vampire knighthawk T1 if I could instead of a hypnotic. Really, though...a T1 hippie WITH FURTHER disruption is insanely good.
A t3 2/2 flyer in standard is just outclassed so quickly. I don't mind spot removal for a hippie (1/1 card trade)...I mind blockers, which is much more likely in T2 than legacy
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Current favorite decks:
Standard
Blows
Modern BWUTeachingsBWU GUGU TempoGU WLifeW RWValakut ControlRW UBModern MillUB
Legacy UMUCU BPoxB BWRTokensBWR
Pauper UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
Honestly, he's not that great anymore, not in Legacy, and especially not in Standard. If the entire meta is combo, his clock is anemic, and the hand disruption can be worked around. If it's aggro, he'll die to a bolt w/o a second thought. The only situation where he's worth it is a definite control meta; where actual aggro would fare better. And even though dark rit is awesome, it sacrifices CA as well as at least a few bad topdecks. I might actually eschew it in favor of more lands + better threats.
perish is a good answer to zoo's creature base, but their burn is another matter. you'll have to keep them off mana or cards in hand to answer that. for goblins? I've not seen a build that actually runs reverent silence, which is sort of funny. if you need better early sweepers for just gobbos, then hideous end or infest might work. Other than that, I'm not sure what to tell you.
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Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
It's the list in the opening post of this thread. It came from a Star City Games tournament.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Yes. It's much more like MB A-C. 'Real' MBC would be something of the form...
20 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Cabal Coffers
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Creatures
1 Magus of the Coffers
2 Tombstalker
Spells
4 Consume Spirit
4 Innocent Blood
3 Staff of Domination
4 Chainer's Edict
3 Skeletal Scrying
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Beseech the Queen
2 Oblivion Stone
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Wrench Mind
4 Extirpate
...or anything similar. Discard + Removal + Finishers.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
The list isn't bad. You don't need Dark Ritual or Phyrexian Arena. Rather, the former really shouldn't be in anyform of control. The reason being is that if you draw it early, all it does is give you a temporary speed boost. And if you're control, just how are you going to exploit that? (In control, the only time I can see that being worthwhile is against combo, where you might need some explosive start. But that's negated by the following). It's a dead draw mid/late game.
Arena isn't that bad, and you can run it in control. Without D.Rit, its inclusion becomes a bit more debatable. I personally don't like it because you're limited in what you get. Skeletal Scrying and Staff of Domination give you more cards when you want them. Both also have other functions.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
That is true. I never really thought of it in traditional MBC (though, it seems like it would be a nice fit in Faeries. Will need to try both out).
I guess you can still call that MBC, though Pox seems to have it's own label. I'm not entirely sure why (probably from Pox + land destruction, which TMBC doesn't really pack).
Exacta.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
4 Cabal Coffers
20 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Win Conditions(9)
3 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
2 Promise of Power
4 Consume Spirit
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Shriekmaw
4 Innocent Blood
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
A little different, i like korlash as my finisher...no evasion but he can get huge and is hard to get rid of.Additionally combined with volrath's i can continue to thin 2 swamps out of my deck.Shriekmaw with volrath's is also nice and can double as a win condition.
Land base is questionable for sure, i don't have many double black sources but i think i am trying to do too much.Factories are out...i really have to treat coffers as a colorless source in the opening hand, even wastelands will be difficult to run.
Seriously considering buying the deck on MTGO, seems like it has great game against combo and MWS is so frustrating...had someone leave after a first turn duress.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
how is this cheap? just in your mana base is over 250$ and your SB is over 100. yes your spells arent to much $$ or your creatures. but thats over 350 for the mana and side. dredge is cheaper then that, goblins is cheap too. how is burn that $$ the only money in the deck is chain lightning and PoP.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Eh...I think that falls more under the line of 'cute tricks'. I tried messing around with Undead Gladiator back a bit, and it was underwhelming. Both on the board and as a cycling engine.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
13 Removal:
2 Snuff Out
2 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Shriekmaw
4 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Consume Spirit
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
1 Unmask
4 Augur of Skulls
11 Engine Pieces / Tutor:
2 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
3 Tortured Existence
3 Dimir House Guard
2 Beseech the Queen
23 Swamp
1 Cabal Coffers
15 Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
I have not tested this deck in any way yet, but from my experience with MBC in pauper, the biggest weakness is starting slow against fast decks while the biggest strength is a very strong late game against creature-based decks. I hope to counteract this speed-deficiency with plenty of cheap disruption (Innocent Blood, Snuff Out, Hymn, etc.). 4 is the magic CMC in this deck, as Tortured Existence and Dimir House Guard (DHG) turn any creature drawn into a tutor for CMC 4 (Hence the single maindeck Unmask, Damnation, Disk, etc.)
why cut volraths for grim discovery, they both serve the same purpose but volrath allows you to run more spells.I did cut down to 3 coffers.Shriekmaws have really not worked well for me so far, i find them underwhelming...there are too many artifact/black creatures in this format.
Thoughts on consuming vapors?The obvious application is against NO decks.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
Phyrexian Arena > sign in blood
Diabolic edict > Doom blade/vendetta
17 swamps and 4 rits is not enough mana
I've played Pox for a long time...my older build ran Nyxathid. He was pretty strong, but bloodghast turned out better for pox. In here I think he could shine.
Also, of you are looking for a more controlling creature, Hypnotic specter is still excellent when you can get it out on T1 or T2. I personally think it is better in legacy than nighthawk, especially considering how much removal is in the deck already.
Here is my current Pox/aggro build for comparison. My deck is more aggro-orriented than traditional crucible-pox, but more controlling than the deck posted here.
4x Bojuka Bog
3x Dark Ritual
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Bloodghast
2x Tombstalker
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Duress
1x Raven's Crime
3x Small Pox
1x Death Cloud
4x The Rack
3x Phyrexian Arena
2x Nevrinyrral's Disk
1x Syphon Life
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Sadistic Sacrament
2x Engineered Plague
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Persecute
Standard
Blows
Modern
BWUTeachingsBWU
GUGU TempoGU
WLifeW
RWValakut ControlRW
UBModern MillUB
Legacy
UMUCU
BPoxB
BWRTokensBWR
Pauper
UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage
RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
As all the decks are probably too varied, could someone possibly give me a core of what the deck might look like? Or even a full build?
Or am I just better off building Pox?
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
Elminister- Nice list, though I would add Damnation as soon as you can get them. They're the best Black mass removal, hands down. I'd also add a Haunting Echoes, as it can cripple most decks. You should be able to get a M10 one for cheap.
Modern: :symu::symb::symr: Reanimator + :symr::symg: Tron + :symu::symr: Twin
Worst case with aggro, you just board out discard and run removal instead. B is awash in it.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
I'm working on a standard mbc and hippy seemed like an auto-include. I use him in my legacy mba, and I see him in these legacy mbc builds. So my question is why does he work so well in legacy, the land of much creature removal and counters, but not used in standard? Which has just as much removal and almost as much counter. haha
Do you guys think he deserves a spot in standard mbc?
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
Dark rit is good, but it doesn't make cards worse not having it.
Standard and legacy both have many many 1 and 2cc removal, so your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
Furthermore, as magicmilton point out, a T1 Hippie will immediately start eating away at their hand. T1 Hippie, T2 Hymn is almost always gg if they have no responses, since you have devastated their hand; don't underestimate the power of random discard
Standard
Blows
Modern
BWUTeachingsBWU
GUGU TempoGU
WLifeW
RWValakut ControlRW
UBModern MillUB
Legacy
UMUCU
BPoxB
BWRTokensBWR
Pauper
UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage
RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
Dark rit is good, I love it, and I love dropping one first turn for a hippy. Basically what you're saying is that hippy without dark rit isn't worth playing at all just because you can't drop it first turn? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. haha
As for the 1-2cc removal/counter in legacy here's a list off the top of my head.
FoW
Path to Exile
Bolts
Helix
Fireblast
Tribal Flames
Chain Lightning
Swords to Plowshares
Counterspell
Daze
Smother
And I'm sure I'm missing a lot more. haha Not to mention removal that is more than 2cc.
So how can you justify playing hippy in legacy and not standard by saying that legacy doesn't have answers for it?
I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, I really am interested as to why he works in legacy and not standard. So far the reasons mentioned hasn't answered it for me.
So does that mean you're for hippy in a standard mbc? haha
Basically all I'm trying to find out is if he's worthy to play in standard. He's going to eat removal in any format, doesn't matter what turn he comes down on, dark rit or not.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
A t3 2/2 flyer in standard is just outclassed so quickly. I don't mind spot removal for a hippie (1/1 card trade)...I mind blockers, which is much more likely in T2 than legacy
Standard
Blows
Modern
BWUTeachingsBWU
GUGU TempoGU
WLifeW
RWValakut ControlRW
UBModern MillUB
Legacy
UMUCU
BPoxB
BWRTokensBWR
Pauper
UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage
RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!