this primer is written for easy understanding of the card reasonings... any assistance would be nice and i will be more than happy to add whatever info you may think applicable!! thank you and enjoy.
DEAD GUY ALE has been around for near 5 years and began as just a BW control deck named Pikula after its creater.. it runs the standard POX discard and mana attack package with some key white control ingrediants.. as for creatures its all about bang for your buck with cheap cc and abilities that last and normally only runs from 12-16.
there are several versions out now more prominantly splashing in green for of course you know Tarmogoyf and pernisious deed. not bad cards to splash for right??...
and on a newer note is the splash of red for a lil burn and spot attack creatures like flametongue kavu. as well as blue splash for the ban wagon with stifle... awsome when added to the already mana aggressive deck that hits lands with waste, sinkhole, vindicate, and discard...
~ C R E A T U R E S ~
Dark Confidant = hes in every deck that likes to draw cards and not run blue or pay for it and can spare a little life with low CC avg deck.
Exalted Angel = this beauty was used more so in the older builds but still sees some play because of the Sensei's Divining Topthat helps you not pay 6 life for her with the confidant. and she is a key beater with some evasion and lifelink.
Tarmogoyf = used to replace exalted as a huge beater for cheap and of couse just stuped awsome...i hate it but must use it to compete
Tombstalker = same spot in the deck as exalted except now this one costs the same as goyf and no need to splash green. and fat enough to evade pernicious deed and engineered explosives.
Spectral Lynx = awsome cheap pro green against our buddy goyf and regenerates from your deed.
Tidehollow Sculler / Mesmeric Fiend = hand disruption and a creature nice addition to most builds not a need to have but a nice to draw..
Hypnotic Specter = in tons of builds due to his evasion, hand disruption ability, and beater...although the 3cc isnt great its on the top end of deadguys cc avg
Jötun Grunt = nice 4/4 beatstick that terrorizes your opponents graveyard.
Serra Avenger = an amazingly overpowered 2 drop 3/3 with evasion and vigilance wow!! but with the huge play of lightning bolt and chain lighning...another easy kill and with the ww CC doesnt greatly fit in the BB deck even though it gets played very often! but wouldnt u rather draw a goyf??
Nantuko Shade = another on of those creatueres that see their way into almost all of deadguy ale builds.. cheap and can be a fatty..very nice
Withered Wretch = used more when dredge was hot and is very potent against flashback. this beauty is a sturdy 2/2 that can ping any graveyard card you want..
Stillmoon Cavalier = again not played much but if your meta calls for the need of pro white from STP or PTE or pro black for smother, vindicate, etc whis creatures got it and can be pumped.. not to awful
Nyxathid = this creature i would like to see played more often in deadguy or pox.. with all of your hand disruption the 3cc is a potencial 7/7. normally when i get him in on turn 4 hes near always a 5/5 or bigger then tag him with ur Jitte..ewww
~ I N S T A N T S ~
Dark Ritual / mox diamond / chrome mox = all have their merits and faults but all do the same thing which is accel the deck and because the deck curves right about 1.98 ~ 2.24 just 1 will get you to drop your hand early on.
Enlightened Tutor = not seen much play in deadguy but helps some builds that use bridge , cursed scrol, rack...etc.
Extirpate = i think this is one of the most underplayed cards in this deck!! it is 1cc and uncounterable/unstoppable. so with every legacy deck running 8-10 dual lands and 8-12 fetch lands then 4 wastelands this you can erraticate a complete mana base from your opponent. you are packing up to 12 LD and now u can eliminate 4 lands from your opponents deck after using 1 of ur LD's. talk about mana deprived little lone any force of will or combo card ur opp is packing... POOF GONE
Orims chant = this card is norally set to SB if at all in deadguy but is amazing in stalling your opponent or fogging an attack, as well as killing combo decks quick and fast!! also used to be nice when you could force take mana burn... wait for that seething song or darkritual to get cast and then boom chant that mo fo for some nice burn... although if they are playing an instant than u cant stop it but still a nice thaught.
smother = was created to kill psychatog but now is one of the favoruite goyf killers and one of the very few black creature kill spells that alows you to kill black creatures. Snuff Out = another great cheap cc creature kill.. not played a ton but not a bad choice.
~ S O R C E R I E S ~
Duress = the key discard spell for any deck although its play has dropped signifigantly since the conception of thaughsieze it is still amazing 1cc drop ur never sad to see in your opening hand.
Thoughtseize = the golden boy of the era b & 2life gladly for any nonland in your hand to bite the dust!!
Hymn to Tourach = tempo, card advantage, turn 1 takes care of anyones dream hand when combined with dark ritual and duress or thaughtsieze...
Gerrard's Verdict = another great tempo card! and the ability to gain some needed life while forcing the 2 card for 1...
Sinkhole = the best LD spell in the game. also a great t1 with rit and a discard spell if ur dont have the hymm
Vindicate = another great 1 for 1 trade that assisted in any situation.. it hits creatures planewalkers and whatever strikes your fancy. also when combined with sinkhole and wasteland your deck has a nice ability to kill off 12 lands. most decks these days dont evan run that many mana producing lands any way!!!!
Smallpox = this is a do it all card that hits creatures lands hands and life total... how bad could it be?? if your opponent is already struggling this could be the clincher. although if you count straight up you lose the exact same as your oppenent and u cast smallpox so ur actualy down an extra card!!..
~ E N C H A N T M E N T ~
Nether Void = well you are already killing much needed lands and forcing hand disruption.. now u have to pay 3 more for every spell... so not cool. this is the finishing touch of the deck definitely not a 4 of... but works on the same premice as trinsphere and defense grid.
Pernicious Deed = 3cc clear the board!! smokes weenies and merfolk and staxx and enchantress and idk whatever you want.. it's a costly EE but has a wider range!.. loved since the rock back in 05-06
oblivion ring = another vindicate!! is will smoke anything on the board except for lands... sadly but is still a valid tempo gainer! and prodominantly left out of deadguy for well.....vindicate
~ A R T I F A C T S ~
engineered explosives = since you are playing a 2~3 color deck this card for 1,2,3 mana can kill an entire pricerange of threats. and when nearly all decks other than staxx run at a sub 2cc range its a beauty!! and staxx setting EE right at 3 is awsome.
Sensei's Divining Top = great draw engine and helps with minimizing life loss from dark confidont as well as scrolling through your deck after fetch lands reset the top 3 ...
Cursed Scroll = a nice non creature finisher much like grim lavamancer.. but better.
pithing needle = if you know your meta and you know what ur opp is playing this card can single handedly stop that card you dont want to see or the one you see get sideboarded in against you..
Umezawa’s Jitte = arguably the best equipment in the game, they gain life, direct damage, and pump your baby critters! so why not have them..
Aether vile = if your running in a heavy counter meta or running more than 16 creatures this is the card for you!! it will accelerate your creature drop and doesnt mind if your mana poor either!!
= = = SIDEBOARD CARDS = = =
Gaddock Teeg = stays on the SB for combo killer and staxx killer,
aethersworn canonist = again SB for combo kill, and helps you not get overrun with decks that drop tons of storm junk or weenies.
SOME LANDS YOU WILL SEE IN MANY BUILDS WITH BW OR BWg
~FETCH~
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath
Godless Shrine
Polluted Delta
~DUAL~
Scrubland
Bayou
Savanna
~LD~
Wasteland
~BUDGET~
Tainted Field
~MANA FIX~
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
~basic~
Swamp
Plains
forrest
SOO without any further guilding the lilly and no adu whatsoever here are some decklists that top 8 since 2005 - now. (ive chosen some with diff takes on the archtype).
it has obviously fallen a little out of style but would running Descendant of Kiyomaro still be a reasonable option for this deck...? He is almost always going to be turned 'on' and when he is its like having a mini exalted angel. This is the list that I am going to start testing, and yes I don't have all of the money cards yet so It is kinda budget.
It does fairly well even with the budget options but I feel like my Sideboard is all over the place. I was kind of going for more control from the board.
the card advantage is just sick. i just wish i knew what his board plans were. anyone have ideas as to what you would take out vs some of the more popular match ups?
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
the card advantage is just sick. i just wish i knew what his board plans were. anyone have ideas as to what you would take out vs some of the more popular match ups?
The only obvious board is to remove the Thoughtseize for the GY hate or the PtE. Maybe even for the Krosan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
in reference to the Gearhart list i posted just above:
say for example, vs countertop (in any variation)..
you'd want to board in 4x grips and 3x chokes. that's 7 cards.
what 7 cards do you see as being weekest to board out?
this is what i'm getting at, and it's going to be different for each deck, i know.
but the mainboard seems so strong, that you wouldn't be able to board out THAT MANY cards. ya know?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
+4 krosan grip
+3 choke
============================================================
*but about the main deck... i get the card advantage capitalizing on the 2/1discard and the 8 draw engines buuut... nor dark rits or mox seems kind of taking the air out of the decks power turn 1...again this is totally meta driven
*because rits and moxen take away card advantage overall and give you speed! so in a meta full of aggro heavy id be looking for the speed combined with somthing mass oriented like EE or deed etc.
* then in control heavy id be looking to destroy mana base and control for the long haul... so sinkhole, wasteland, extirpate, vindicate... and btw since this deck plays goyf and and jitte and some of the tier 1 cards that are in every deck how can u use a malestrum pulse on the opposing and not hit your own junk? other than stp..
**and for its sb i be looking for -1 Relic Of Progenitus -1 Tormod's Crypt -4pte +3ee +3 extirpate
(Elvtyrr )
i like your build!! it seems solid. and the additional lifegain from the "miniexalted" would be optimal in a burn/sligh heavy area itll be a 3/5 so out of range for the bolts. so ur gettns a lil life and a creature + a burn spell in trade! very nice
You know, the more I think about it the more I agree with taking out to Dark rituals. Yes they can make for some degenerate plays but generally only on turn one or two. Anytime after that and they are dead cards, unless you are running Nantuko shade. It just seems that in a format like legacy drawing a late game ritual as opposed to gas or disruption cards could cost you a game. I'm just not sure if the huge turn ones are good enough to merit a playset of cards completely devoted to them.
well... some of the bwR builds didnt incluse either rits or moxs... but it had burn and some other things going for it to keep up tempo in the early game.
pikula just like pox needs that 1-2 turn booming play with discard/disruption. it can win on occasion without it.. i mean if you got your opening 7 and no ritual your shirly not going to mulligan looking for it.. but in some matchups it is a must for any hope of pulling out a win.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY PLAYER- SPIKE
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Under the creatures section I think you should mention Vampire Nighthawk. I have been testing him in my BW build and has turned out quite well. The lifelink is nice to counter the lifeloss from confident. Can slaughter any creature he blocks (great against large enemy goyfs). Has evasion. Also can be played off a turn one dark ritual if you know opponent lacks removal.
ya!! nighthawk is awsome! and so is Descendant Of Kiyomaro... but they also seem a bit like budget or meta choices...
i only say that because from my experiance with this archtype the gameplan is predominantly disrupt hand and land EARLY while beatdown with a fatty. ex
and in a format that people are teching white exclusively for spot removal STP/PTE, or red for lightning bolt and guarantee blue with daze... its hard to think that a deck wont have some answer for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY PLAYER- SPIKE
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Descendant really shines against decks like zoo where it can neuter most of their early threats so you can save your removal for their more relevant ones, like KotR, or a big goyf. It can be very good against bant if you can keep their grip small as it is bigger than their rhox war monks.
Running a full set of Joten Grunts can really shrink opposing goyfs and add dredge hate to the main board.
@ Tom Mee: The biggest problem that you say these creatures have is against white removal, but every fatty that you mentioned also has that problem. Don't get me wrong Stalker, Goyf, and Doran are awesome but two of them require you to open yourself up to even more non-basic hate while the other one has dis-synergy with Grunt and Bob. In most situations Stalker > Grunt but Grunt can be casted for 2 anytime and can really wreck some decks gameplans, while TS can cost 2 he generally is a bit tougher to play and in most cases will just eat removal right away.
@ Tom Mee: The biggest problem that you say these creatures have is against white removal, but every fatty that you mentioned also has that problem.
very true bro... but i was responding to your idea of dropping it t1 with a rit... where as pikula is all about disruption primarily t1-t3... after you have gotten your opp off tempo then you drop your threats and start coming in sideways.. but yes removal hits anything although if your playing against blue keep mana open for the daze and if its a swinger and your playing red make your creature bigger than a lightning bolt
Don't get me wrong Stalker, Goyf, and Doran are awesome but two of them require you to open yourself up to even more non-basic hate while the other one has dis-synergy with Grunt and Bob.
i was just listing some of the common creatures not implying that you should run them all together. you wont be running all of these creature together for that specific reason... and majority of tier 1 decks only teck in maybe 1 of each of their basic lands...and how do you get more nonbasic hate? either your opponent has it or they dont... but i understand what your trying to say.
In most situations Stalker > Grunt but Grunt can be casted for 2 anytime and can really wreck some decks gameplans, while TS can cost 2 he generally is a bit tougher to play and in most cases will just eat removal right away.
but like we have already agreed every deck has some kind of removal so if the creature is a threat your opponent will attempt to remove it... and you can cast grunt anytime yes but he has no evasion the upkeep is nice if it helps against your opponent but otherwise just puts a clock on how long he can stay in play and without the evasion how much damage can you get through to the dome?? but i really like jotun grunt and i keep a set next to my pikula just in case the meta calls for that kind of disruption, same with Descendant Of Kiyomaro..
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY PLAYER- SPIKE
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Basically I really don't want to splash green because going into a third color will make me much weaker against non-basic land hate and despite goyf being the nuts it just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Basically what I was saying when comparing stalker and grunt is that situations like this come to mind:
You play stalker for 2 delving out 6 cards, and then pass.
Your opponent does something then passes back.
You swing, they kill it.
You either have another TS or topdeck one, and can't play it because you made your graveyard too small by playing the first one.
This happens much less with Grunt as he is an unatractive target unless he is actively hating on a deck. and you can at least play them back to back a bit easier.
that makes copious more sence!! so you want to stick with a strict BW build??
from what you posted... imho this is what i would test out for a lil... i added a bit of tempo and draw power assist your already solid build... mana denial is huge and in the midle of the game you still need to be getting into the good stuff fast! and because all good black things take life you need more of it MD..
I really like list but Sinkholes are just out of the question for the time being, I'd pick up the ABU duals way before I drop the cash for those. They are very good but I can't help feeling that the deck can perform well without them.
I like SDT a lot but is 2 of them going to be enough to actually see them?
i copy the $$ issues... i hate buying cards and nobody wants to just trade for the good stuff when prices are up... hoes!!
vindicate is not a bad answer in place for sinkhole or you could go with smallpox.. but i dont think it fits this particular build.
2 SDT is good. you never need 2 and the skeletal skreying in place of the 3rd top is monumental if you draw it mid-late game... and evan early on to empty your hand and then just draw up 3-4 is insane.. and with all the life gain in the dek you wont miss the life.
how do you like the changes in the deck and the SB???
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY PLAYER- SPIKE
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
how do you like the changes in the deck and the SB???
Since I don't have the land disruption package I prefer running a 3/2 split on PtE and StP. I really don't like giving my opponent the life but I realize that the land can be just as bad.
I've been thinking lately, and wondering what, if anything, this deck can gain from splashing. The green splash holds the obvious inclusion of Goyf and Sylvan library. Red could open up Lightning bolt, Helix, terminate and maybe Blightning, but the latter is probably too slow for Legacy. My main question is what, if anything, does Blue bring to the table? Blue has some of the greatest control cards out there but most of them require you to make a heavy dedication to blue, like force and it's ilk, or are just anti- synergistic with this deck, thinking of standstill here. Is there any reason to run a BWU list?
that is a huge debate!! i think it has 2 major factors... what deck are you building around it?? what other components are involved?? and the 2nd what is your meta game??? control-ish or aggro???
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY PLAYER- SPIKE
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
i think unless u are facing heavy aggro meta, i would choose hyppie regardless of my build as it can win games single handed if left unchecked .. nighthawk's 4 life a turn swing, though good, is not nearly as devastating
the deathtouch i dont look into much (as good as it is) .. plenty of removal for that
I prefer Nighthawk for the main and hippie in the board. As, at least in my experiences aggro decks in one form or another make up a large peice of the metagame. There are so many decks that hippy is blank against but vampire shines. Though if your metagame is very combo or control infested hippie might be a better choice.
DEAD GUY ALE has been around for near 5 years and began as just a BW control deck named Pikula after its creater.. it runs the standard POX discard and mana attack package with some key white control ingrediants.. as for creatures its all about bang for your buck with cheap cc and abilities that last and normally only runs from 12-16.
there are several versions out now more prominantly splashing in green for of course you know Tarmogoyf and pernisious deed. not bad cards to splash for right??...
and on a newer note is the splash of red for a lil burn and spot attack creatures like flametongue kavu. as well as blue splash for the ban wagon with stifle... awsome when added to the already mana aggressive deck that hits lands with waste, sinkhole, vindicate, and discard...
~ C R E A T U R E S ~
Dark Confidant = hes in every deck that likes to draw cards and not run blue or pay for it and can spare a little life with low CC avg deck.
Exalted Angel = this beauty was used more so in the older builds but still sees some play because of the Sensei's Divining Topthat helps you not pay 6 life for her with the confidant. and she is a key beater with some evasion and lifelink.
Tarmogoyf = used to replace exalted as a huge beater for cheap and of couse just stuped awsome...i hate it but must use it to compete
Tombstalker = same spot in the deck as exalted except now this one costs the same as goyf and no need to splash green. and fat enough to evade pernicious deed and engineered explosives.
Spectral Lynx = awsome cheap pro green against our buddy goyf and regenerates from your deed.
Tidehollow Sculler / Mesmeric Fiend = hand disruption and a creature nice addition to most builds not a need to have but a nice to draw..
Hypnotic Specter = in tons of builds due to his evasion, hand disruption ability, and beater...although the 3cc isnt great its on the top end of deadguys cc avg
Jötun Grunt = nice 4/4 beatstick that terrorizes your opponents graveyard.
Serra Avenger = an amazingly overpowered 2 drop 3/3 with evasion and vigilance wow!! but with the huge play of lightning bolt and chain lighning...another easy kill and with the ww CC doesnt greatly fit in the BB deck even though it gets played very often! but wouldnt u rather draw a goyf??
Nantuko Shade = another on of those creatueres that see their way into almost all of deadguy ale builds.. cheap and can be a fatty..very nice
Withered Wretch = used more when dredge was hot and is very potent against flashback. this beauty is a sturdy 2/2 that can ping any graveyard card you want..
Doran, the Siege Tower = 3cc 5/5 and makes ur goyf +1/+0 aswell. nice fatty
Stillmoon Cavalier = again not played much but if your meta calls for the need of pro white from STP or PTE or pro black for smother, vindicate, etc whis creatures got it and can be pumped.. not to awful
Nyxathid = this creature i would like to see played more often in deadguy or pox.. with all of your hand disruption the 3cc is a potencial 7/7. normally when i get him in on turn 4 hes near always a 5/5 or bigger then tag him with ur Jitte..ewww
~ I N S T A N T S ~
Enlightened Tutor = not seen much play in deadguy but helps some builds that use bridge , cursed scrol, rack...etc.
Swords to Plowshares / path to exile = major creature killer
Extirpate = i think this is one of the most underplayed cards in this deck!! it is 1cc and uncounterable/unstoppable. so with every legacy deck running 8-10 dual lands and 8-12 fetch lands then 4 wastelands this you can erraticate a complete mana base from your opponent. you are packing up to 12 LD and now u can eliminate 4 lands from your opponents deck after using 1 of ur LD's. talk about mana deprived little lone any force of will or combo card ur opp is packing... POOF GONE
Orims chant = this card is norally set to SB if at all in deadguy but is amazing in stalling your opponent or fogging an attack, as well as killing combo decks quick and fast!! also used to be nice when you could force take mana burn... wait for that seething song or darkritual to get cast and then boom chant that mo fo for some nice burn... although if they are playing an instant than u cant stop it but still a nice thaught.
smother = was created to kill psychatog but now is one of the favoruite goyf killers and one of the very few black creature kill spells that alows you to kill black creatures. Snuff Out = another great cheap cc creature kill.. not played a ton but not a bad choice.
~ S O R C E R I E S ~
Duress = the key discard spell for any deck although its play has dropped signifigantly since the conception of thaughsieze it is still amazing 1cc drop ur never sad to see in your opening hand.
Thoughtseize = the golden boy of the era b & 2life gladly for any nonland in your hand to bite the dust!!
Hymn to Tourach = tempo, card advantage, turn 1 takes care of anyones dream hand when combined with dark ritual and duress or thaughtsieze...
Gerrard's Verdict = another great tempo card! and the ability to gain some needed life while forcing the 2 card for 1...
Sinkhole = the best LD spell in the game. also a great t1 with rit and a discard spell if ur dont have the hymm
Vindicate = another great 1 for 1 trade that assisted in any situation.. it hits creatures planewalkers and whatever strikes your fancy. also when combined with sinkhole and wasteland your deck has a nice ability to kill off 12 lands. most decks these days dont evan run that many mana producing lands any way!!!!
Smallpox = this is a do it all card that hits creatures lands hands and life total... how bad could it be?? if your opponent is already struggling this could be the clincher. although if you count straight up you lose the exact same as your oppenent and u cast smallpox so ur actualy down an extra card!!..
~ E N C H A N T M E N T ~
Pernicious Deed = 3cc clear the board!! smokes weenies and merfolk and staxx and enchantress and idk whatever you want.. it's a costly EE but has a wider range!.. loved since the rock back in 05-06
oblivion ring = another vindicate!! is will smoke anything on the board except for lands... sadly but is still a valid tempo gainer! and prodominantly left out of deadguy for well.....vindicate
~ A R T I F A C T S ~
Sensei's Divining Top = great draw engine and helps with minimizing life loss from dark confidont as well as scrolling through your deck after fetch lands reset the top 3 ...
Cursed Scroll = a nice non creature finisher much like grim lavamancer.. but better.
pithing needle = if you know your meta and you know what ur opp is playing this card can single handedly stop that card you dont want to see or the one you see get sideboarded in against you..
Umezawa’s Jitte = arguably the best equipment in the game, they gain life, direct damage, and pump your baby critters! so why not have them..
Aether vile = if your running in a heavy counter meta or running more than 16 creatures this is the card for you!! it will accelerate your creature drop and doesnt mind if your mana poor either!!
= = = SIDEBOARD CARDS = = =
Gaddock Teeg = stays on the SB for combo killer and staxx killer,
aethersworn canonist = again SB for combo kill, and helps you not get overrun with decks that drop tons of storm junk or weenies.
(no time will complete later)
SOME LANDS YOU WILL SEE IN MANY BUILDS WITH BW OR BWg
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath
Godless Shrine
Polluted Delta
~DUAL~
Scrubland
Bayou
Savanna
~LD~
Wasteland
~BUDGET~
Tainted Field
~MANA FIX~
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
~basic~
Swamp
Plains
forrest
SOO without any further guilding the lilly and no adu whatsoever here are some decklists that top 8 since 2005 - now. (ive chosen some with diff takes on the archtype).
BW - Ying Yang by Arvid Kötting 23/07/2005 2nd
3 Exalted Angel
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch
instant [12]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [12]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Seal of Cleansing
land [21]
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Withered Wretch
2 Smother
3 Infest
4 Engineered Plague
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Tormod's Crypt
15 cards
B/W Deadguy by Christian Jäger 30/12/2006 1st
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
instant [4]
4 Dark Ritual
sorcery [12]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Engineered Plague
artifact [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
land [22]
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Spectral Lynx
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
B/w Deadguy Ale by Richard Duijzer 14/01/2007 2nd
4 Dark Confidant
4 Descendant of Kiyomaro
4 Jötun Grunt
2 Withered Wretch
instant [10]
4 Funeral Charm
2 Skeletal Scrying
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [15]
4 Duress
3 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Tainted Field
1 Tomb of Urami
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Withered Wretch
2 Darkblast
2 Perish
3 Tivadar's Crusade
4 Engineered Plague
BRW SOUL by Harald 09/11/2007 5th
4 Dark Confidant
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Mogg Fanatic
instant [8]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [16]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Cursed Scroll
land [21]
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Nature's Ruin
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
BWGoyf by Stefano Maccagnani 23/12/2007 1st
4 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Spectral Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [7]
3 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [12]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
land [22]
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Savannah
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gaddock Teeg
1 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Massacre
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
TarmoFolk by Nakatani Shinji 27/01/2008 1st
4 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
instant [7]
3 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [14]
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
land [23]
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Umezawa's Jitte
BWR Frikula by David Yepez 19/04/2008 7th
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Taurean Mauler
instant [15]
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [8]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Seal of Cleansing
artifact [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
land [20]
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Pyroclasm
4 Planar Void
3 Serenity
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
Trashcan by Dennis Wagner 24/08/2008 2nd
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
instant [6]
4 Stifle
2 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [15]
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
artifact [4]
4 Lotus Petal
land [21]
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Withered Wretch
3 Extirpate
3 Smother
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Perish
Rack.dec by Alfred Baño 03/05/2008 4th
4 Dark Confidant
instant [6]
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
3 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [21]
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Damnation
4 Duress
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 The Rack
land [23]
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
2 Tombstalker
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Bottomless Pit
3 Engineered Plague
3 Planar Void
1 The Abyss
Doran Rock by Rafael Blanquet 08/02/2009 3rd
4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [2]
2 Smother
sorcery [15]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
artifact [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
land [22]
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Jötun Grunt
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Relic of Progenitus
Pikula by Francois Pelletier 18/04/2009 1st
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
instant [8]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [13]
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
land [22]
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SCHwarz-WEISS-THEE-Deck by Gabor Peters 28/06/2009 4th
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tombstalker
instant [13]
4 Dark Ritual
3 Orim's Chant
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [11]
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Isochron Scepter
land [22]
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Godless Shrine
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Jötun Grunt
1 Disenchant
4 Engineered Plague
3 Planar Void
4 Null Rod
Deadguy Ale by Piotr Czapara 12/12/2009 1st
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
instant [9]
4 Dark Ritual
1 Smother
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [12]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
land [22]
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Choke
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
YUMA, AZ
YUMA, AZ
This deck smokes pox, eva green, fish, and any weenie aggro!! but loses to stax a deck nobody plays
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
4x Marsh Flats
4x Godless Shrine
4x Caves of Koilos
1x Fetid heath
5x Swamp
1x Plains
Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Jotun Grunt
3x Nyxathid
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
3x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Descendant of Kiyomaro
2x Snuff Out
3x Damnation
3x Senei's Diving top
4x The Rack
It does fairly well even with the budget options but I feel like my Sideboard is all over the place. I was kind of going for more control from the board.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
David Gearhart (pro who made solidarity) placed 2nd with this deck 11-29-09...
4 Dark Confidant
4 Descendant Of Kiyomaro
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library
Instants
2 Skeletal Scrying
4 Swords To Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sorceries
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Path To Exile
the card advantage is just sick. i just wish i knew what his board plans were. anyone have ideas as to what you would take out vs some of the more popular match ups?
The only obvious board is to remove the Thoughtseize for the GY hate or the PtE. Maybe even for the Krosan.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
say for example, vs countertop (in any variation)..
you'd want to board in 4x grips and 3x chokes. that's 7 cards.
what 7 cards do you see as being weekest to board out?
this is what i'm getting at, and it's going to be different for each deck, i know.
but the mainboard seems so strong, that you wouldn't be able to board out THAT MANY cards. ya know?
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Gerrard's Verdict
+4 krosan grip
+3 choke
============================================================
*but about the main deck... i get the card advantage capitalizing on the 2/1discard and the 8 draw engines buuut... nor dark rits or mox seems kind of taking the air out of the decks power turn 1...again this is totally meta driven
*because rits and moxen take away card advantage overall and give you speed! so in a meta full of aggro heavy id be looking for the speed combined with somthing mass oriented like EE or deed etc.
* then in control heavy id be looking to destroy mana base and control for the long haul... so sinkhole, wasteland, extirpate, vindicate... and btw since this deck plays goyf and and jitte and some of the tier 1 cards that are in every deck how can u use a malestrum pulse on the opposing and not hit your own junk? other than stp..
**and for its sb i be looking for -1 Relic Of Progenitus -1 Tormod's Crypt -4pte +3ee +3 extirpate
(Elvtyrr )
i like your build!! it seems solid. and the additional lifegain from the "miniexalted" would be optimal in a burn/sligh heavy area itll be a 3/5 so out of range for the bolts. so ur gettns a lil life and a creature + a burn spell in trade! very nice
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
pikula just like pox needs that 1-2 turn booming play with discard/disruption. it can win on occasion without it.. i mean if you got your opening 7 and no ritual your shirly not going to mulligan looking for it.. but in some matchups it is a must for any hope of pulling out a win.
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
i only say that because from my experiance with this archtype the gameplan is predominantly disrupt hand and land EARLY while beatdown with a fatty. ex
and in a format that people are teching white exclusively for spot removal STP/PTE, or red for lightning bolt and guarantee blue with daze... its hard to think that a deck wont have some answer for it.
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Descendant really shines against decks like zoo where it can neuter most of their early threats so you can save your removal for their more relevant ones, like KotR, or a big goyf. It can be very good against bant if you can keep their grip small as it is bigger than their rhox war monks.
Running a full set of Joten Grunts can really shrink opposing goyfs and add dredge hate to the main board.
@ Tom Mee: The biggest problem that you say these creatures have is against white removal, but every fatty that you mentioned also has that problem. Don't get me wrong Stalker, Goyf, and Doran are awesome but two of them require you to open yourself up to even more non-basic hate while the other one has dis-synergy with Grunt and Bob. In most situations Stalker > Grunt but Grunt can be casted for 2 anytime and can really wreck some decks gameplans, while TS can cost 2 he generally is a bit tougher to play and in most cases will just eat removal right away.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
very true bro... but i was responding to your idea of dropping it t1 with a rit... where as pikula is all about disruption primarily t1-t3... after you have gotten your opp off tempo then you drop your threats and start coming in sideways.. but yes removal hits anything although if your playing against blue keep mana open for the daze and if its a swinger and your playing red make your creature bigger than a lightning bolt
i was just listing some of the common creatures not implying that you should run them all together. you wont be running all of these creature together for that specific reason... and majority of tier 1 decks only teck in maybe 1 of each of their basic lands...and how do you get more nonbasic hate? either your opponent has it or they dont... but i understand what your trying to say.
but like we have already agreed every deck has some kind of removal so if the creature is a threat your opponent will attempt to remove it... and you can cast grunt anytime yes but he has no evasion the upkeep is nice if it helps against your opponent but otherwise just puts a clock on how long he can stay in play and without the evasion how much damage can you get through to the dome?? but i really like jotun grunt and i keep a set next to my pikula just in case the meta calls for that kind of disruption, same with Descendant Of Kiyomaro..
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Basically what I was saying when comparing stalker and grunt is that situations like this come to mind:
You play stalker for 2 delving out 6 cards, and then pass.
Your opponent does something then passes back.
You swing, they kill it.
You either have another TS or topdeck one, and can't play it because you made your graveyard too small by playing the first one.
This happens much less with Grunt as he is an unatractive target unless he is actively hating on a deck. and you can at least play them back to back a bit easier.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
from what you posted... imho this is what i would test out for a lil... i added a bit of tempo and draw power assist your already solid build... mana denial is huge and in the midle of the game you still need to be getting into the good stuff fast! and because all good black things take life you need more of it MD..
4x Dark Confidant
2x Descendant Of Kiyomaro
3x jotun grunt
3x Nyxathid
4x Vampire Nighthawk
Spells (25)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
1x skeletal skrying
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x sinkhole / 4x vindicate
2x SDT
4x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x scrubland
1x swamp
1x Plain
3x wasteland
3x Snuff Out
4x extirpate
3x Aura of Silence
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x pithing needle
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
I like SDT a lot but is 2 of them going to be enough to actually see them?
Thanks for the advice.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
vindicate is not a bad answer in place for sinkhole or you could go with smallpox.. but i dont think it fits this particular build.
2 SDT is good. you never need 2 and the skeletal skreying in place of the 3rd top is monumental if you draw it mid-late game... and evan early on to empty your hand and then just draw up 3-4 is insane.. and with all the life gain in the dek you wont miss the life.
how do you like the changes in the deck and the SB???
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
Since I don't have the land disruption package I prefer running a 3/2 split on PtE and StP. I really don't like giving my opponent the life but I realize that the land can be just as bad.
I've been thinking lately, and wondering what, if anything, this deck can gain from splashing. The green splash holds the obvious inclusion of Goyf and Sylvan library. Red could open up Lightning bolt, Helix, terminate and maybe Blightning, but the latter is probably too slow for Legacy. My main question is what, if anything, does Blue bring to the table? Blue has some of the greatest control cards out there but most of them require you to make a heavy dedication to blue, like force and it's ilk, or are just anti- synergistic with this deck, thinking of standstill here. Is there any reason to run a BWU list?
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
i copy that... this game can get expencive!! but vindicate is great in here instead. or maybe
-4 sinkhole
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 skeletal skrying
+1 Gerrard's Verdict
there are 2 great BWR builds in this threads primer!! they use burn + flametongue kavu
blue is hard to "splash" normally blue doesnt go well in 3 colors... how about you try a list out and well comment and try to get one going??
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
I sadly have no Jittes but will be getting at least one soon as I'm planning on hitting a grand prix this summer.
The burn seems good but it seems like flametongue kavu is a bit underpowered these days.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291220
trying to move into standard because more players in my area are moving that way
i think unless u are facing heavy aggro meta, i would choose hyppie regardless of my build as it can win games single handed if left unchecked .. nighthawk's 4 life a turn swing, though good, is not nearly as devastating
the deathtouch i dont look into much (as good as it is) .. plenty of removal for that
what does everyone else think?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291220
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW